111 replies to this topic

[eThErEaL]

Zufa, on 31 October 2011 - 06:35 AM, said:

What i ment actually is this example: If you ask Allah (SWT) to give you "x", and you will not receive it, it does not mean that Allah (SWT) did not gave it to you, rather If He wills to Give, you will get the "x".

What you are saying is that:

So long as he does not will to give you X you will not get X.  and so long as you do not get X He is not the "Giver-of-X".  But He could very well be the "Giver-of-Y" (if He wills it) which still makes him "the Giver" even if he is not the "Giver-of-X".

correct?

aladdin, on 31 October 2011 - 06:39 AM, said:

What is the Job of Allah?

What do you mean by Job?

[aladdin]

eThErEaL, on 31 October 2011 - 06:47 AM, said:

hat do you mean by Job?

His work?

[eThErEaL]

aladdin, on 31 October 2011 - 06:48 AM, said:

His work?

His work is to to do all of what His qualities demand Him to do.  So, if He is merciful, his job is to be merciful.   If He is Loving, His job is to love things.  etc etc..

[aladdin]

eThErEaL, on 31 October 2011 - 07:05 AM, said:

His work is to to do all of what His qualities demand Him to do.  So, if He is merciful, his job is to be merciful.   If He is Loving, His job is to love things.  etc etc..

Then if He is Creator, his job is to be Creator.

[Dhulfikar]

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So long as he does not will to give you X you will not get X. and so long as you do not get X He is not the "Giver-of-X". But He could very well be the "Giver-of-Y" (if He wills it) which still makes him "the Giver" even if he is not the "Giver-of-X".

Yes, it is like Imam Ali saying about Allah (jj) that "What He created, and what He did not create, was the result of His Inviolable Decision, His Firm Knowledge, and His Exact Command."

But we will come to conclusion that He Give something (than not to give anything).

Edited by Zufa, 31 October 2011 - 07:21 AM.

[eThErEaL]

aladdin, on 31 October 2011 - 07:06 AM, said:

Then if He is Creator, his job is to be Creator.

Yes.

[aladdin]

So, the question is ridiculous, why were we Created!

His job is to be Creator.

eThErEaL, on 31 October 2011 - 07:05 AM, said:

His work is to to do all of what His qualities demand Him to do.  So, if He is merciful, his job is to be merciful.   If He is Loving, His job is to love things.  etc etc..

aladdin, on 31 October 2011 - 07:06 AM, said:

Then if He is Creator, his job is to be Creator.

[eThErEaL]

aladdin, on 31 October 2011 - 07:09 AM, said:

So, the question is ridiculous, why were we Created!

His job is to be Creator.

Yes.  precisely.  it is a ridiculous question.

[aladdin]

eThErEaL, on 31 October 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

Yes.  precisely.  it is a ridiculous question.

Agreed, unless one is the denier of the attributes of Allah. Remember, the group who didn't understand the first sermon of Imam Ali in Najul Balagha and became the denier of attributes of Allah.

[eThErEaL]

aladdin, on 31 October 2011 - 07:17 AM, said:

Agreed, unless one is the denier of the attributes of Allah. Remember, the group who didn't understand the first sermon of Imam Ali in Najul Balagha and became the denier of attributes of Allah.

Well no one would bother asking the question of why God created the creation if they didn't already presuppose he was the creator.  Don't you think?

[aladdin]

eThErEaL, on 31 October 2011 - 07:22 AM, said:

Well no one would bother asking the question of why God created the creation if they didn't already presuppose he was the creator.  Don't you think?

Circular reasoning like the denier of the attributes. Remember your answer.

eThErEaL, on 31 October 2011 - 07:05 AM, said:

His work is to to do all of what His qualities demand Him to do.  So, if He is merciful, his job is to be merciful.   If He is Loving, His job is to love things.  etc etc..

The deniers of the attributes came to the conclusion that God doesn't exists.

So, if His qualities demand Him to be the Creator, then He is the Creator.

Edited by aladdin, 31 October 2011 - 07:49 AM.

[eThErEaL]

aladdin, on 31 October 2011 - 07:48 AM, said:

Circular reasoning like the denier of the attributes. Remember your answer.


The deniers of the attributes came to the conclusion that God doesn't exists.

So, if His qualities demand Him to be the Creator, then He is the Creator.

I am sorry.  Can you write a more detailed response and this time in full sentences?  Thank you

[thecontentedself]

But His creating the created world is not without reason. Allah (swt) doesn't just create for the sake of creating, that would be attributing a negative attribute to Him.

He created for the creatures to benefit from the possibility to worship and to reach the station of 'Al insaan al kamil', the perfect human. Those that answer His call, will appreciate this and see with the eyes of their heart the only true happiness is this relationship and this path and this system.

Edited by thecontentedself, 31 October 2011 - 08:14 AM.

[wundermonk]

thecontentedself, on 31 October 2011 - 08:14 AM, said:

He created for the creatures to benefit from the possibility to worship and to reach the station of 'Al insaan al kamil', the perfect human.

Unfortunately this doesnt address the question. The question is *why* Allah created creatures in in the first place.

[eThErEaL]

thecontentedself, on 31 October 2011 - 08:14 AM, said:

But His creating the created world is not without reason. Allah (swt) doesn't just create for the sake of creating, that would be attributing a negative attribute to Him.

He created for the creatures to benefit from the possibility to worship and to reach the station of 'Al insaan al kamil', the perfect human. Those that answer His call, will appreciate this and see with the eyes of their heart the only true happiness is this relationship and this path and this system.

Not exactly sure if you are replying to me.  But what was said does not imply a lack of purpose (or telos) in any way.  You are looking at a particular quality of God now, namely (the Designer), the (Lawgiver), the.  each of these qualities demands an object.  He can only be the Designer if He designs X.  He can only be the Lawgiver if He gives us Laws to follow or if He gives the Natural System Laws to follow.   Why is there a wisdom in creation?  Because God is wise.  we are using the same logic for each and every quality we find in the universe.  we see a creation, we know there is a creator.  We see wrath, we know God is wrathful.  we see beauty, we know God is beautiful.

[Ugly Jinn]

eThErEaL, on 31 October 2011 - 07:05 AM, said:

His work is to to do all of what His qualities demand Him to do.  So, if He is merciful, his job is to be merciful.   If He is Loving, His job is to love things.  etc etc..

Any 'work/demand' for Him creating will involve a 'necessity'/'need'/'dependency' which will contradict absolute perfection. He can't be bound by His attributes.

wundermonk, on 31 October 2011 - 08:52 AM, said:

The question is *why* Allah created creatures in in the first place.

The answer is simple, 'we don't know'. The problem is that the answer is too simple to be accepted by many and we humans by nature like to fill in the "x" in a formula.

El Cid, on 10 October 2011 - 12:40 PM, said:

The man tried to dephrive us Muslims of our rights, He didn't support the idea of the two-nation theory and supported Hindus over muslims anyday. Sorry but I don't support such figures, And yes I have read Pak history.=

Rights? lol Sorry to break your heart but when British invaded India there was only India. An India with all religions living together. All of a sudden British left and you've attained "Rights"? Where were these 'rights' before British invaded?

There were opportunists who took advantage of the situation when British left, that's history for you. But if you are Pakistani then nothing will change your mind.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 31 October 2011 - 06:55 PM.

[thecontentedself]

eThErEaL, on 31 October 2011 - 12:20 PM, said:

Not exactly sure if you are replying to me.  But what was said does not imply a lack of purpose (or telos) in any way.  You are looking at a particular quality of God now, namely (the Designer), the (Lawgiver), the.  each of these qualities demands an object.  He can only be the Designer if He designs X.  He can only be the Lawgiver if He gives us Laws to follow or if He gives the Natural System Laws to follow.   Why is there a wisdom in creation?  Because God is wise.  we are using the same logic for each and every quality we find in the universe.  we see a creation, we know there is a creator.  We see wrath, we know God is wrathful.  we see beauty, we know God is beautiful.

Sorry but the question was 'why were we created'. Of course I accept that His attributes of action demand an act to exist, whereas His attributes of essence (Living, Knowing, etc) don't. But saying God created because He is a Creator isn't really answering the question. It's like saying 'I perform human acts like thinking, because I am human'.

God has free will to create or not to create. And He does not do things without reason. Therefore creation has a purpose. And the question posed was to do with this purpose, or did I misunderstand?

Ugly Jinn, on 31 October 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

Any 'work/demand' for Him creating will involve a 'necessity'/'need'/'dependency' which will contradict absolute perfection. He can't be bound by His attributes.

not if the one benefiting is the created.

God is Al Ghaniy, which literaly translated means rich. but it doesn't refer to physical or financial richness, since nothing is like Him, but it refers to self-sufficiency and the ability to give to others and not relying on others to sustain its existence. Everything else other than Him is 'faqir', meaning poor and in need of Him in every aspect to sustain its existence. We own nothing and He owns everything. He doesn't 'need', He is the Giver of everything, so how can you say he 'needs' when the only ones benefiting from existence is us, the created? (by worship that leads to certainty)

[eThErEaL]

Ugly Jinn, on 31 October 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

Any 'work/demand' for Him creating will involve a 'necessity'/'need'/'dependency' which will contradict absolute perfection. He can't be bound by His attributes.

Not sure if you are familiar with Ibn Arabi, Mulla Sadra or the other Islamic sages.  But in Islamic Cosmology, there is a very important distinction drawn between Essence and Divinity.  These are two ways to conceptualize a single Reality.  The former is not to be seen in relationship to anything outside itself.  The latter must be seen and can only be seen in a relationship to creation because it is envisaged through its many attributes which are shared with the creation.  The relationship within the Divinity is the Lord-servant or Lord-vessel relationship.  Ibn Arabi commonly says that without a vessel there can be no lord to be a lord over the vessel.  even thought the lord needs a vessel the lord is always "active" (or yang) with respect to its ("receptive" or yin) vessel that it lord over.  

this about the Quranic verse:

"God has made mercy obligatory upon Himself."

Edited by eThErEaL, 01 November 2011 - 08:49 AM.

[eThErEaL]

thecontentedself, on 01 November 2011 - 03:27 AM, said:

Sorry but the question was 'why were we created'. Of course I accept that His attributes of action demand an act to exist, whereas His attributes of essence (Living, Knowing, etc) don't. But saying God created because He is a Creator isn't really answering the question. It's like saying 'I perform human acts like thinking, because I am human'.

If the human is defined a thinking animal (al insaan al-naatiq), what other possible reason could there be for why humans think?  Do people as why a triangle has three sides?  The reason why there is no benefit from the answer for all these questions is because the questioner without truly realizing it is asking an analytical question about the very meaning of the word.

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God has free will to create or not to create. And He does not do things without reason. Therefore creation has a purpose. And the question posed was to do with this purpose, or did I misunderstand?

the ultimate answer to any question will have to be something essential and not accidental.  So you did not misunderstand.  If one truly wants to know why God created, we have to first find out if the reason he created was accidental to Himself or Essential to Himself. Because if it is accidental to Himself then there is no true answer.  If it is essential, then there is a true answer.  And teh true answer would have to be found within his essential attributes.

[MysticKnight]

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying God needs to create. God is moral, and will act according to his morality. If he doesn't act according to his morality, he will not be the Ultimate Moral being. Does he need to be the Ultimate Moral being, I think he does. Does he need to act upon his essence and qualities, I think he does. Or he will cease to be whom he is. If he acts according non-ultimate morality, then he will be less great. He needs to be what he is, so there is need to act upon best qualities. Having this need doesn't make him less great.

[Ugly Jinn]

thecontentedself, on 01 November 2011 - 03:27 AM, said:

not if the one benefiting is the created.

God is Al Ghaniy, which literaly translated means rich. but it doesn't refer to physical or financial richness, since nothing is like Him, but it refers to self-sufficiency and the ability to give to others and not relying on others to sustain its existence. Everything else other than Him is 'faqir', meaning poor and in need of Him in every aspect to sustain its existence. We own nothing and He owns everything. He doesn't 'need', He is the Giver of everything, so how can you say he 'needs' when the only ones benefiting from existence is us, the created? (by worship that leads to certainty)

I never stated He 'needs', I'm implying if He is bound by His attributes then He has a dependency.

eThErEaL, on 01 November 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Not sure if you are familiar with Ibn Arabi, Mulla Sadra or the other Islamic sages.  But in Islamic Cosmology, there is a very important distinction drawn between Essence and Divinity.  These are two ways to conceptualize a single Reality.  The former is not to be seen in relationship to anything outside itself.  The latter must be seen and can only be seen in a relationship to creation because it is envisaged through its many attributes which are shared with the creation.  The relationship within the Divinity is the Lord-servant or Lord-vessel relationship.  Ibn Arabi commonly says that without a vessel there can be no lord to be a lord over the vessel.  even thought the lord needs a vessel the lord is always "active" (or yang) with respect to its ("receptive" or yin) vessel that it lord over.  

this about the Quranic verse:

"God has made mercy obligatory upon Himself."

I don't see the need to compartmentalize God into 'essence'/'divinity'/etc. The question is simple regarding 'why did God created us', and it seems we are trying to justify creation. My fundamental point is that any justification for God creating us will inject a 'necessity/dependency' into the formula. God can still remain a God without a vessel.

My main point is that answering the question "Why God created us?" with logic and reasoning is void. Why you must ask? Because God is not bound to logic and reasoning, He doesn't need to act based on 'logic or reasoning', hence our attempt is illogical to use 'logic and reasoning' to understand the decision by God to create.

Only God can answer why He created, His reason can be anything. Unfortunately, from an Islamic point of view He didn't state clearly why in the Quran (there are couple of Hadith but they aren't applicable).

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 02 November 2011 - 02:11 AM.

[eThErEaL]

Ugly Jinn, on 02 November 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

I never stated He 'needs', I'm implying if He is bound by His attributes then He has a dependency.

right but when one is dependent they are in need of what they are dependent on.  But I am fine with even using dependency.

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I don't see the need to compartmentalize God into 'essence'/'divinity'/etc. The question is simple regarding 'why did God created us', and it seems we are trying to justify creation. My fundamental point is that any justification for God creating us will inject a 'necessity/dependency' into the formula. God can still remain a God without a vassal.

We do need to draw a conceptual distinction between the Divinity and the Essence when dealing with such  issues.  Because the distinction is simply about a God that we can talk about or understand (Divinity), and a God that we cannot talk about or understand (Essence).  But if you don't have a (necessity/dependency) you are left with its opposite, namely that god created the creation in a way that it was completely accidental to Himself.  Which necessarily implies that He created the creation arbitrarily.  Because whatever the reason for creating the creation is, that reason must be found within Himself and not outside Himself.  Because nothing outside Himself can influence Him.

Now this whole idea of Lord-vassal (please note spelling error in my previous post) and how the two co-imply each other is a standard way of envisaging God in the Islamic tradition.  An interesting and beautiful hadith comes to mind that goes like this: <em> &quot;had the people not sinned, God would have destroyed them and replaced them with a people who do sin just so that He can forgive them.

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My main point is that answering the question &quot;Why God created us?&quot; with logic and reasoning is void. Why you must ask? Because God is not bound to logic and reasoning, He doesn't need to act based on 'logic or reasoning', hence our attempt is illogical to use 'logic and reasoning' to understand the decision by God to create.

But logically there can only be two options.  Either the reason for creating lies outside of God in which case this would be shirk since something other than God influenced God.  Or the reason lies within God Himself in which case it would not be shirk.  If it lies within Himself it is essential to Himself and not accidental.  This is the point and a very important one.

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Only God can answer why He created. Unfortunately, from an Islamic point of view He didn't state clearly why in the Quran (there are couple of Hadith but they aren't applicable).

Brother.  Our entire existence is about this particular question.  Inasmuch as one can truly answer this question with his heart and not only with his tongue then one has fulfilled his purpose as a human being.  what makes human beings more perfect than other is the extent to which they understand the answer to this question.  The answer to this question constitutes our very identity as  a human being.

Edited by eThErEaL, 02 November 2011 - 03:06 AM.

[Ugly Jinn]

eThErEaL, on 02 November 2011 - 03:01 AM, said:

right but when one is dependent they are in need of what they are dependent on.  But I am fine with even using dependency.

Let me ask you this, is 'absolute perfection' dependent on attributes? Or in a different way, 'Is having attributes a prerequisite for God to attain absolute perfection?'

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We do need to draw a conceptual distinction between the Divinity and the Essence when dealing with such issues. Because the distinction is simply about a God that we can talk about or understand (Divinity), and a God that we cannot talk about or understand (Essence). But if you don't have a (necessity/dependency) you are left with its opposite, namely that god created the creation in a way that it was completely accidental to Himself. Which necessarily implies that He created the creation arbitrarily. Because whatever the reason for creating the creation is, that reason must be found within Himself and not outside Himself. Because nothing outside Himself can influence Him.

Can creation find the reason that exists within Himself? (without Him telling us)

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But logically there can only be two options.  Either the reason for creating lies outside of God in which case this would be shirk since something other than God influenced God.  Or the reason lies within God Himself in which case it would not be shirk.  If it lies within Himself it is essential to Himself and not accidental.  This is the point and a very important one.

Agreed.

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Brother.  Our entire existence is about this particular question.  Inasmuch as one can truly answer this question with his heart and not only with his tongue then one has fulfilled his purpose as a human being.  what makes human beings more perfect than other is the extent to which they understand the answer to this question.  The answer to this question constitutes our very identity as  a human being.

What you said above is right but that still doesn't answer the question 'Why He created us?".

Logic and reasoning is applicable within the realm of creation, we cannot apply this outside of creation to the Creator, it is void.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 02 November 2011 - 11:34 PM.

[eThErEaL]

Ugly Jinn, on 02 November 2011 - 11:33 PM, said:

Let me ask you this, is 'absolute perfection' dependent on attributes? Or in a different way, 'Is having attributes a prerequisite for God to attain absolute perfection?'

His attributes are essential to His Being.  In other words in God's Essence all qualities are identical to each other because all of them are equally the Essence.    

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Can creation find the reason that exists within Himself? (without Him telling us)

Only if they know it through God.  Which only humans have this capacity.  Which is what makes human beinsg special.  They are special because they are created in God's form.  In other words man has a theomorphic nature by virtue of being human.

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What you said above is right but that still doesn't answer the question 'Why He created us?".

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Logic and reasoning is applicable within the realm of creation, we cannot apply this outside of creation to the Creator, it is void.

It does not answer that question in that post.  I wasnt trying to answer it.  I just said that to show the importance of why that question is important to answer and why we should not ignore it.

Indeed, logic can only be applied within a limited domain. But notice that I did not apply it to God Himself.  I am not using logic to find out what God is.  I am using logic to find out what we already know.

Edited by eThErEaL, 03 November 2011 - 12:41 AM.

[Ugly Jinn]

eThErEaL, on 03 November 2011 - 12:34 AM, said:

His attributes are essential to His Being.  In other words in God's Essence all qualities are identical to each other because all of them are equally the Essence.  

Have these attributes existed before He created?

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Only if they know it through God.  Which only humans have this capacity.  Which is what makes human beinsg special.  They are special because they are created in God's form.  In other words man has a theomorphic nature by virtue of being human.

Oh dear, you're going Sufism on me now.

How can one know it through God? Isn't that basically saying that God has to communicate the reason to us? (ie. angels, divine agents, etc.)

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Indeed, logic can only be applied within a limited domain. But notice that I did not apply it to God Himself.  I am not using logic to find out what God is.  I am using logic to find out what we already know.

But you are using logic to find out 'Why' God does. God's actions cannot be found via logic. The only way to find out His reasons is if He communicates to us.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 04 November 2011 - 12:32 AM.