111 replies to this topic

[sadiqwaljee]

eThErEaL, on 20 November 2011 - 10:16 AM, said:

The Perfect Man cannot be confined to this or that individual..to this or that historical personality.  The Perfect Man is like the light of the entire universe.  so the Perfect Man as such is not merely Muhammad as we imagine him to have lived at a specific time in history.  The Perfect Man is the necessary condition for us to reach our perfection.  All of us are inwardly this Perfect Man.  Don't imagine it to be merely some historical figure.  the Perfect Man Manifests itself in different religions, and in different contexts.  But Shias tend limit it to the Ahlul Bayt.  Christians tend limit it to Jesus.  Buddhists tend limit it to the Buddha.  These three do not truly understand what it really means to be perfect, because thy don't have a proper understanding (even at the theoretical level) of what the Perfect Man is.   I said "tend" because its not like every Christian or Muslim or Buddhist does this.

If perfect man is a concept and not a personality, then what are the qualities/attributes of being a perfect man, and did all of the prophets and Wali Allah achieved the same rank and status as they were all perfect and equal. please explain?

[eThErEaL]

sadiqwaljee, on 21 November 2011 - 06:54 AM, said:

If perfect man is a concept and not a personality, then what are the qualities/attributes of being a perfect man, and did all of the prophets and Wali Allah achieved the same rank and status as they were all perfect and equal. please explain?

Its not a concept.  It is reality.  In fact it is the most real..since it is God-Manifest (God inasmuch as we understand Him).  The qualities and attributes of being the perfect-man are the actualization of the Intellect (Omniscience) and Virtue (which are the virtues of God).

The only reason we say Muhammad was of a higher status than the rest of the Imams is because he had a function that the rest of the imams didn't have...namely prophecy.  But this now is not a metaphysical discussion.. this is now a theological discussion which can be debated.

Edited by eThErEaL, 21 November 2011 - 11:52 PM.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

eThErEaL, on 21 November 2011 - 11:50 PM, said:

Its not a concept.  It is reality.  In fact it is the most real..since it is God-Manifest (God inasmuch as we understand Him). The qualities and attributes of being the perfect-man are the actualization of the Intellect (Omniscience) and Virtue (which are the virtues of God).

I'm sorry, but this sounds completely ambiguous and vague. Are you saying that a Perfect man is characterized through the perfected traits of Intellect and Virtue? If so, there must be *someone* who has such traits.

[thecontentedself]

اهل البيت, on 24 November 2011 - 09:22 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but this sounds completely ambiguous and vague. Are you saying that a Perfect man is characterized through the perfected traits of Intellect and Virtue? If so, there must be *someone* who has such traits.

Great discussion! If I may:
As far as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong ethereal, the Ahlul Bayt , are one light in the world of intellect, but they have an earthly existence in which that light is manifest. And combining this fact, with the fact that everything has a 'qadar', ie a certain capacity to accept effusion, faydh, the concept of Perfect Man is manifest, in this earthly life, in the Prophet and Imam Ali , since Imam Ali IS the soul of the Prophet just in another body.

[eThErEaL]

اهل البيت, on 24 November 2011 - 09:22 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but this sounds completely ambiguous and vague. Are you saying that a Perfect man is characterized through the perfected traits of Intellect and Virtue? If so, there must be *someone* who has such traits.

It depends what you mean by "someone".
Do you call God "someone" because He has perfect Virtue and Omniscience?

thecontentedself, on 24 November 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

Great discussion! If I may:
As far as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong ethereal, the Ahlul Bayt , are one light in the world of intellect, but they have an earthly existence in which that light is manifest. And combining this fact, with the fact that everything has a 'qadar', ie a certain capacity to accept effusion, faydh, the concept of Perfect Man is manifest, in this earthly life, in the Prophet and Imam Ali , since Imam Ali IS the soul of the Prophet just in another body.

Right!  So when the Imam says "we are the names of God" we should ask what is this "we"?  This "we" is referring to the Perfect Man which is within all human beings.  The Imam is therefore speaking on behalf of all human beings (and at a much deeper level--without risking confusion--all of creation).  But even though he is speaking on behalf of all human beings, not all human beings have taken the effort (which usually takes a lifetime) to truly realize this and behave accordingly.

Edited by eThErEaL, 28 November 2011 - 12:21 AM.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

eThErEaL, on 28 November 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:

It depends what you mean by "someone".
Do you call God "someone" because He has perfect Virtue and Omniscience?

God is *something*. Human Beings are *someone". God is the epitomy of virtue. Human Beings can't be the perfection of God, but they can actualize it within their own limited scopes.

eThErEaL, on 28 November 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:

Right!  So when the Imam says "we are the names of God" we should ask what is this "we"?  This "we" is referring to the Perfect Man which is within all human beings.  The Imam is therefore speaking on behalf of all human beings (and at a much deeper level--without risking confusion--all of creation).  But even though he is speaking on behalf of all human beings, not all human beings have taken the effort (which usually takes a lifetime) to truly realize this and behave accordingly.

You've totally distorted what the Imam (a) meant. He is talking about the "AhlulBayt" specifically, no one else. They are the names of God because they are the gateway TO God, they are the true representatives. The laymen like us are not representatives of God. AhlulBayt embody perfection, but not ultimate perfection as that would be God. We have the potential of reaching the level of perfection, but it is nonsense to say that WE as in the *whole of creation* are the names of God when we clearly haven't actualized the traits of perfection of the names of God, none of us, like the ahlul bayt (a) have.

[eThErEaL]

اهل البيت, on 28 November 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

God is *something*. Human Beings are *someone". God is the epitomy of virtue. Human Beings can't be the perfection of God, but they can actualize it within their own limited scopes.

Recall I said that the perfect man actualizes Perfect Virtue and Omniscience.  The Perfect Man is that through which the entire creation was created.  It not only become delimited to particular particular people but to every thing.  It is both nondelimited and delimited.  God is only nondelimited.  And things are only delimited.  So is the Perfect Man someone or something?  It doesnt matter what you call it, as long as you understand what was just said.      

Quote

You've totally distorted what the Imam (a) meant. He is talking about the "AhlulBayt" specifically, no one else. They are the names of God because they are the gateway TO God, they are the true representatives. The laymen like us are not representatives of God. AhlulBayt embody perfection, but not ultimate perfection as that would be God. We have the potential of reaching the level of perfection, but it is nonsense to say that WE as in the *whole of creation* are the names of God when we clearly haven't actualized the traits of perfection of the names of God, none of us, like the ahlul bayt (a) have.

  Just because you always understood it that way does not make what I said a distortion.  Your understanding of it is very limited and weak.  And I trying to help yo understand.  I have no intention of distorting anything.

@ اهل البي

Also, please read carefully what I said.  I didn't say all human beings are perfect without needing to actualize it.

And you have not yet understood what I said.

[Dhulfikar]

The answer is following:

'O son of Adam! I created everything for you and created you for Myself.' Sharh-i Asma-i Husna,I, 139: 202; Rasa 'il-i Karaki,III, 962

'My servant! Obey me, so that I make you like Myself or an example of Myself.' Bihar al-Anwar,CV, 165; "Maqam-i Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, III; 185,

[eThErEaL]

Dhulfikar, on 19 December 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:

The answer is following:

'O son of Adam! I created everything for you and created you for Myself.' Sharh-i Asma-i Husna,I, 139: 202; Rasa 'il-i Karaki,III, 962

'My servant! Obey me, so that I make you like Myself or an example of Myself.' Bihar al-Anwar,CV, 165; "Maqam-i Imam Ali عليه السلام, III; 185,

Thanks for sharing this.  Very beautiful!  Is it possible we can also get the Arabic for that?  

thank you very much sidi

[thecontentedself]

eThErEaL, on 11 January 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Thanks for sharing this.  Very beautiful!  Is it possible we can also get the Arabic for that?  

thank you very much sidi

look at the Hadith Qudsi collection, it's there in both languages. i've got a booklete by a SM Zaki Baqri (Ansaryan Pub.) it's in there.

[Dhulfikar]

Sorry i just forget this topic. Oke here is the original arabic hadith which was a footnote found in Bihar Al-Anwar:


'My servant! Obey me, so that I make you like Myself or an example of Myself.' Bihar al-Anwar,CV, 165; "Maqam-i Imam Ali عليه السلام, III; 185,

عبدي أطعني تكن مثلي ، أو مثلي

Another version (Footnote of Bihaar al-Anwaar):
عبدي أطعني حتى أجعلك مثلي أو مثلي

--------------
But we have actual hadiths (not footnotes) which support this saying "I make you like Myself";

Here is two Examples:
(1.)

(ابن آدم أنا غني لا أفتقر أطعني فيما أمرتك أجعلك غنيا لا تفتقر يا ابن آدم أنا حي لا أموت أطعني فيما أمرتك أجعلك حيا لا تموت يا ابن آدم أنا أقول للشي‏ء كن فيكون، أطعني فيما أمرتك أجعلك تقول لشي‏ء كن فيكون),
“Oh Son of Adam, I am self sufficient and I will not become needy. Obey me so that I make you needless and so that you will never become poor. I am alive and will never die, obey my command so that I make you eternally alive so you will never die. I tell a thing to be and it is. Obey me so that I make you as such, where you tell a thing to be and it becomes so.”

Biharul-Anwar, vol. 90, pg. 376, chapter 24 (the reason for the delay of the answer of prayers..); Irshadul-Qulub, vol. 1, pg. 75, chapter 18; Uddatul-Da’i, pg. 310, chapter…….pg. 307.

Also;

(2.)



With a chain of authorities reaching up to the Thiqat al-Islam Muhammad ibn Ya'qub at-Kulayni, may God sanctify his soul, from several of our companions, from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid, from Isma'il ibn Mihran, from Abu Said al-Qummat, from Aban ibn Taghlib, from Abu Ja'far, may peace be upon him, that he said: "When the Prophet, may Allah bless him and his Household, was taken on his [celestial] journey, he said [to God]: `My Lord, what is the state of the believer before Thee?' He replied, `O Muhammad, indeed whoever humiliates a friend of mine declares a war against me and I am the swiftest of all in the aid of My friends. And I am not so hesitant in any thing that I do as when taking the life of the faithful person who hates death, and I hate to vex him. And indeed there are those amongst My faithful servants whom nothing can reform except wealth, and should I turn them towards something other than that they would perish. And indeed there are those amongst my faithful servants whom nothing would reform except poverty, and if I were to change their state from what it is they would perish. And there is nothing dearer among things that bring a servant of Mine near to Me than the obligations that I have assigned to him. And indeed he draws nearer to Me gradually through supererogatory acts until I love him, and when I love him, I become the hearing with which he hears, the sight wherewith he sees, the tongue wherewith he speaks, and the hand wherewith he holds, and if he calls Me, I answer him, and if he asks Me I grant him: "

Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi, ii, 352, "kitab al-iman wa al-kufr," "bab man adha al-muslimin wa ahtaqarahum," hadith 8.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 24 January 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[asif12716]

We humans, man and womens are only created to workship Allah.All other living things and non living things are created by Allah for us.But in addition Allha has made us such that we have many other requirements which have to fulfilled.but workship is prime work.If we didn't get enough food,clothing, other basic requirements then we are not a loser since life in the world is mortal.but the hearafter which is for ever is our real world.We should led life according to Allah's commandments in prophet way.This will bring peace in world.We should in addition remind other brother & sisters about it.