48 replies to this topic

[aladdin]

Only God's justice required to first punish both David and Barsheba, and then the others.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:

To refer to a persona, it will require the definite artice "the" either in front of it or added at the end. Thus, it will be al satan, el satan, ha satan or satanel. I will come back to satanel later. So with Job, there was ha satan. In Judaism there are no fallen angels, but there is an angel whose only job is to tempt mankind and to be a prosecuting attorney, to be an accuser. This angel is in good standing with God.

Same is true in Islam both satan and Iblis who is a jinn, is the enemy of mankind only, and no ememy of any other Creation of God. I will discuss Iblis and the powers given to satan.

There was ha satan with Job.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Book_of_Job

""The Satan", meaning literally "the adversary", appears in the prose prologue of Job: he is not the devil, as he becomes in later Judeo-Christian works, but one of the celestial beings who stand before God in the heavenly court.^[10] As a member of a divine council "the adversary" observes human activity with the purpose of searching out men's sins and acting as their accuser. "The adversary" occurs in the framing story alone—he is never clearly alluded to in the central poem. However, Abaddon and Sheol are mentioned throughout the central poem. Job does speak of an adversary on several occasions within the central poem, but it is doubtful that he is referring to "the Adversary" of the prose prologue."

In Islam though, Iblis is referred to alternatively as both "Satan" and "Iblis" and is described as an unbeliever. The Quran says that Iblis became one of the unbelievers and vowed to intentionally lead astray as many of God's servants as possible. If you are trying to say that Iblis willingly serves God with faith and humble obedience, then the Quran is against you there. But if you are saying that God occasionally uses Iblis for certain purposes and Iblis thinks he can outwit God when he is actually the one who is being outwitted, then yes, that's a perfectly Islamic concept.

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:

I like your objection about charges against David character in the Bible. All prophets are shown in bad light in the Bible, and so is Job. So, please bring the Quran verses about Job so that we can discuss them.

As far as God punishing them because they were bad, then God shouldn't relent and stop. He should punish them all. To punish some and not punish other due to relenting is not God's justice. We Shia Muslims, you and I believe that God is Just. It is our second usool ad-din. Here are our first two usool ad-din.

1. God is One and Unit.

2. God is Just.

Thus, God justice required either to punish them all or none. Not to relent half way.

I believe the Old Testament scriptures were specifically chosen for certain purposes. I think the Christians chose those particular scriptures to be the Old Testament because they felt that the portrayal of some of the prophets as sinners of major sins boosted the credibility of Jesus as a more supreme individual than they.

But anyway, as to the emboldened text, you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that if those killed as punishment for what the king did were evil, then that's fine and if they were righteous, that's fine too. For if they were wicked and evil, they will justly be sent to Hell upon death and if they were righteous and faithful, then they will justly be sent to Paradise. And if they were truly faithful, they would accept that God has full right to tell them when they are going to die and that they will obtain due issue from God upon death for their deeds. God has full right to kill anyone, righteous or evil, whenever he pleases and you, as a believer, shouldn't fear death as anything evil if you are truly faithful in what has God has promised you and he will eventually cause you to die at some point anyway regardless of your objection. If God chooses to make you die for a specific purpose and has promised reward for your righteousness, so be it. God is not doing anything wrong by causing 70,000 people to die to teach their authority figure a lesson. If anything, dying by an angel of God is better than living under the authority of one who forgets him. "Murder" refers to the action of humans taking life unjustly, that is in the manner God does not approve of. When God chooses something to die directly through commands to his angels to kill, it is never murder, always justice.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23, 11 September 2011 - 06:56 AM.

[aladdin]

Saintly_Jinn23, on 11 September 2011 - 06:48 AM, said:

In Islam though, Iblis is referred to alternatively as both "Satan" and "Iblis" and is described as an unbeliever. The Quran says that Iblis became one of the unbelievers and vowed to intentionally lead astray as many of God's servants as possible. If you are trying to say that Iblis willingly serves God with faith and humble obedience, then the Quran is against you there. But if you are saying that God occasionally uses Iblis for certain purposes and Iblis thinks he can outwit God when he is actually the one who is being outwitted, then yes, that's a perfectly Islamic concept.

I never said that Iblis was in good standing with Allah. I said that both satan and Iblis are the enemies of mankind only and they are not the enemies of any other Creation of God.

Wa'Salam.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

I never said that Iblis was in good standing with Allah. I said that both satan and Iblis are the enemies of mankind only and they are not the enemies of any other Creation of God.

Wa'Salam.

Oh, okay, sorry. It's just when you described the particular jewish belief in the above paragraph, I thought you were saying we believe the same thing, only instead with a jinn.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23, 11 September 2011 - 06:56 AM.

[aladdin]

I also said that I will write about Iblis later. The only power given to satan is the "power of whisper" and no other power.

However, you are right that Iblis is refereed to both as Iblis and Satan in Quran. If he is referred to Satan in Quran, then he will be referred to as al-satan and pronounced as-satan, and not just satan.

Beware brother, translated Quran is not Quran, nor is translated TaNaKh the Old Testament, or translated Gospels from Greek/Latin the New Testament.

Saintly_Jinn23, on 11 September 2011 - 06:55 AM, said:

Oh, okay, sorry. It's just when you described the particular jewish belief in the above paragraph, I thought you were saying we believe the same thing, only instead with a jinn.

Salam brother,

We learn from each other.

Wa'Salam.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

^ ^

Yes, I have noticed that when the Quran says things like "Verily Satan is an enemy unto you," in English, in Arabic it is "al-shaytan" or "al-shshaytana" which I think in english should be written: (the) Satan. This way, English speakers who are reading the Quran aren't confused and think that Satan is only used as a title for Iblis.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23, 11 September 2011 - 07:08 AM.

[aladdin]

Saintly_Jinn23, on 11 September 2011 - 07:06 AM, said:

^ ^

Yes, I have noticed that when the Quran says things like "Verily Satan is an enemy unto you," in English, in Arabic it is "al-shaytan" or "al-shshaytana" which I think in english should be written: (the) Satan. This way, English speakers who are reading the Quran aren't confused and think that Satan is only used as a title for Iblis.

You are right brother, and it depends on the translator. We Shia, you and I also believe that each verse of the Quran has seven meanings. When the Quran says al-satan, then it could mean two things:

1. Referring to Iblis.

2. Referring to The Greatest Evil/Adversay.

And, for this reason the translated Quran is not Quran.

Also, I am waiting for Son of Placid or Placid to ask me how Jesus calls God, Allah in the New Testament, in KJV and NIV?

I hope you ask me this question as it is related to what we are discussisng?

Wa'Salam.

[Son of Placid]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 05:40 AM, said:

If you and/or your father is interested how Jesus called God, Allah in the New Testament, then I am willing to show you?

Salam Aladdin,
I have very little interest in what you plan to show me. Allah, being a name given to God is no more than another name for a God who is above names. In finding Allah in the NT I'm sure it would mean much more to you than it would to me. The term Jesus used most in relationship to God was My Father, not as in my dad kinda father, but Heavenly Father, the One who created Him.

In as much as you would like to confuse Christians, (and probably have) you don't give them anything. If your plan is to confuse and mock then that isn't very Muslimish either.

Don't know if you noticed but in another post I had mentioned that the name of the true religion of God was never mentioned in the Bible either and if it were to be called Islam I would be okay with that as well.

I'm sure if your conviction told you that God, aka Allah,'s real name was George He would continue to bless you.

[Son of Placid]

MysticKnight, on 10 September 2011 - 12:32 PM, said:

1Sa 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Anyone care to explain how God could regret something he did? When you regret doing something, it means you made the wrong choice. How can God have made the wrong choice?

There is other verses about God regretting. How do they make sense to you?

Hi Mystic knight,
I think what you will find is that not every time in the OT when God is mentioned is it actually God/Allah. The most common name used in the OT is Elohim, which is commonly assumed to be God, but has actually been used in reference to just about anything spiritual or unnatural that wasn't understood.

The OT cannot be read the same as the Quran and vice versa, which is probably most of the confusion between religions. In the OT most of the narrations are by men with the coarse languages of the time who wrote to the best of their ability what they understood to be truth whether they understood it or not. This is how you get some whacked out sounding stories that don't make sense. The reason they don't make sense is because a lot of oddities are explained as being God's intentions, fault, direction, etc.

I will try to put together something a bit more comprehensive butonce again real life is getting in my way.
Later.

[aladdin]

Son of Placid, on 11 September 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

Salam Aladdin,
I have very little interest in what you plan to show me. Allah, being a name given to God is no more than another name for a God who is above names. In finding Allah in the NT I'm sure it would mean much more to you than it would to me. The term Jesus used most in relationship to God was My Father, not as in my dad kinda father, but Heavenly Father, the One who created Him.

I'm sure if your conviction told you that God, aka Allah,'s real name was George He would continue to bless you.

Salam brother,

Allah is not the name of God.

[Son of Placid]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

Salam brother,

Allah is not the name of God.

Then what would be the purpose of proving Jesus called God Allah?

[aladdin]

Son of Placid, on 11 September 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

Then what would be the purpose of proving Jesus called God Allah?

To show you that Jesus in not son or Son of God, and God is not father of anyone.

[Son of Placid]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

To show you that Jesus in not son or Son of God, and God is not father of anyone.

And what would be he purpose of showing this to a non trinitarian?

[aladdin]

Son of Placid, on 11 September 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

And what would be he purpose of showing this to a non trinitarian?

Becuase of the following statement you used and is very confusing to a Muslim, especially when you claim that you are a non trinitarian.

Quote

The term Jesus used most in relationship to God was My Father, not as in my dad kinda father, but Heavenly Father, the One who created Him.

The confusion in my mind:

1. Why Jesus used term in relationship of God to be his Father?

2. Why Heavenly Father and why not Heavenly Mother? (Keeping in mind that God is Rabbi, and the first and foremost God's attributes are mother-like and not father-like)

3. Why you write Jesus as Him, you use capital "H" for Him while addressing Jesus, if Jesus is not God, Son of God or son of God?

Edited by aladdin, 11 September 2011 - 07:22 PM.

[Son of Placid]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 07:19 PM, said:

Becuase of the following statement you used and is very confusing to a Muslim, especially when you claim that you are a non trinitarian.



The confusion in my mind:

1. Why Jesus used term in relationship of God to be his Father?

2. Why Heavenly Father and why not Heavenly Mother? (Keeping in mind that God is Rabbi, and the first and foremost God's attributes are mother-like and not father-like)

3. Why you write Jesus as Him, you use capital "H" for Him while addressing Jesus, if Jesus is not God, Son of God or son of God?

You sure are hung up on capitals. If you want to go into it start another thread where it is on topic.

[aladdin]

Son of Placid, on 11 September 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:

You sure are hung up on capitals. If you want to go into it start another thread where it is on topic.

No need to start another thread, answer me here.

Also, we have established in this thread that elohim could also means demons.

Which is part of the subject of son of elohim.

Or, sons of elohim.

[Son of Placid]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 08:00 PM, said:

No need to start another thread, answer me here.

As soon as you are elected to be in charge of something...anything.

Quote

Also, we have established in this thread that elohim could also means demons.

Which is part of the subject of son of elohim.

Or, sons of elohim.

Only  you woud make a connection between sons of demons and God regretted, go figure.

[aladdin]

Son of Placid, on 11 September 2011 - 08:10 PM, said:

As soon as you are elected to be in charge of something...anything.

Only  you woud make a connection between sons of demons and God regretted, go figure.

How about sons of mighty men and not sons of God?

[aladdin]

No where in the TaNaKh and/or Holy Quran, God is referred to Father. Calling God "Father", is purely a Christian concept. It is blaspheme in Islam to call God, Father.

http://www.ligonier....god-our-father/

Quote

The first Jewish rabbi to call God “Father” directly was Jesus of Nazareth.

When the TaNaKh says, men are sons of elohim and women are daughters of men, it basically means that men are sons of mighty (powerful) men.

Even in Quran, Mohammad is also not considered the Father of Muslims.

Quote

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the messenger of Allah, and the seal of the prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

Al-Qur'an, 033.040 (Al-Ahzab [The Clans, the Coalition, the Combined Forces])

[Son of Placid]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

No where in the TaNaKh and/or Holy Quran, God is referred to Father. Calling God "Father", is purely a Christian concept. It is blaspheme in Islam to call God, Father.

http://www.ligonier....god-our-father/


When the TaNaKh says, men are sons of elohim and women are daughters of men, it basically means that men are sons of mighty (powerful) men.

Even in Quran, Mohammad is also not considered the Father of Muslims.

Being brothers, of any sort implies some form of parental association. So who's mom then?

[aladdin]

Son of Placid, on 11 September 2011 - 10:13 PM, said:

Being brothers, of any sort implies some form of parental association. So who's mom then?

Whose mom, the brothers in faith?

Neither Allah nor Mohammad is Father of Muslims.

Don't be impatient, read carefully.

[Son of Placid]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

Whose mom, the brothers in faith?

Neither Allah nor Mohammad is Father of Muslims.

Don't be impatient, read carefully.

It's okay...forget it.

[placid]

Hi Mystic,

--- I am sorry that your question has not been answered. I was reviewing it and found that it wandered off topic like many do, --- without giving an answer.
Quote from Post 1:
1Sa 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
Anyone care to explain how God could regret something he did? When you regret doing something, it means you made the wrong choice. How can God have made the wrong choice?
There is other verses about God regretting. How do they make sense to you?

In response, I will give a bit more of the story from 1 Samuel which may help.
--- (When God chose Israel as a nation He said, “I will be your God, and you will be My people.” --- God had given them the land of Israel and favored them, but they became rebellious. God was their King, and would guide His Prophets in giving victory over their enemies, --- but they wanted an earthly king to lead them.)

8:4. Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah,
5 and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7 And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also.
9 Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”
10 So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who asked him for a king.
11 And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen,
13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.
14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants.
--- (So the people were rejecting God as well as the Prophet Samuel, and this is where the first king was appointed in Israel.)

The story is long but here are some selected verses:
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us,
20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”
21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the LORD.
22 So the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”

9:1. There was a man of Benjamin whose name was Kish the son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Bechorath, the son of Aphiah, a Benjamite, a mighty man of power.
2 And he had a choice and handsome son whose name was Saul. There was not a more handsome person than he among the children of Israel. From his shoulders upward he was taller than any of the people.
15 Now the LORD had told Samuel in his ear the day before Saul came, saying,
16 “Tomorrow about this time I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him commander over My people Israel,

10:1. Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on his head, and kissed him and said: “Is it not because the LORD has anointed you commander over His inheritance?
24 And Samuel said to all the people, “Do you see him whom the LORD has chosen, that there is no one like him among all the people?”
So all the people shouted and said, “Long live the king!”

--- (Saul started out as a good King of the people, but over the years of his reign he became self-important and became disobedient to God and to Samuel and eventually, God rejected him. --- And then these verses):

15:10. Now the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying,
11 “I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the LORD all night.
12 So when Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul, it was told Samuel, saying, “Saul went to Carmel, and indeed, he set up a monument for himself; and he has gone on around, passed by, and gone down to Gilgal.”
13 Then Samuel went to Saul, and Saul said to him, “Blessed are you of the LORD! I have performed the commandment of the LORD.”
--- (Then Samuel told him that he had not obeyed the LORD and that the Lord had rejected him as King.)

27 And as Samuel turned around to go away, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore.
28 So Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you.

Then your verse 15:35. And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

--- Therefore, the ‘regret’ or the ‘repenting’ appeared to come from Saul’s changed behavior as the King, --- so he was replaced.
--- Like so many, he started out well, but finished badly.

God certainly regretted that the people had rejected Him as their King, --- and Saul seemed to be the best choice for an earthly King, --- but because of human nature, God’s promises sometimes must be conditional .
It is written in different ways in Scripture where God said, “If you do well you will be blessed, If you don’t do well you will not be blessed.”


Placid

Edited by placid, 22 September 2011 - 09:50 AM.

[BostonJew]

The verb in that verse (nicham) is actually not well translated as "repented" or "regretted."  The root n-ch-m means "comfort."  In this form, the meaning is more at "to be comforted" or perhaps "to comfort oneself"  See for example Genesis 24:67 or 37:35.

At any rate, the point still stands, re: G-d's decision making.  I think the point is that people have free will, and G-d hopes people will make the right choices, but sometimes they do not.