133 replies to this topic

[Ruq]

ImAli, on 02 September 2011 - 11:18 AM, said:

Because I just prefer not to be around it...when I think of openly gay I imagine drag queen shoving the lifestyle down your throat....I don't want my children to see this while they are at such a young impressionable age.

Well, camp doesnt = gay. Camp has a long history of being used for comic effect, because a man mimicking women is somehow funny. The most contemporary example of a British comedian who is camp but not gay is David Walliams.
Im not sure what you mean about your kids being exposed to the lifestyle. If you live in the UK your kids are going to be constantly exposed to haram and and opposition to Quranic values, i would worry more about their teenage years than them being little kids and seeing some guy acting effeminate, im not sure how that damages them, it wont make them gay.

[ImAli]

~Ruqaya, on 02 September 2011 - 11:33 AM, said:

Well, camp doesnt = gay. Camp has a long history of being used for comic effect, because a man mimicking women is somehow funny. The most contemporary example of a British comedian who is camp but not gay is David Walliams.
Im not sure what you mean about your kids being exposed to the lifestyle. If you live in the UK your kids are going to be constantly exposed to haram and and opposition to Quranic values, i would worry more about their teenage years than them being little kids and seeing some guy acting effeminate, im not sure how that damages them, it wont make them gay.

I'm not in the U.K. and I understand it won't make them gay, don't worry I am not that dense. The thing is I don't feel like explaining to a 5 or 6 year old why those two men are holding hands and snuggling in the street and why one of them is wearing stilettos........instead I will make a huge detour.

[Haydar Husayn]

As so often with the sisterhood, their alliance only lasts as long as they are defending their own interests. Once they move away from that, the cracks start appearing. This is why Muslims should be busy defending Islam, and not their gender, nation, race, or anything else.

By the way, when I was talking about being openly homosexual, I wasn't really so much talking about being camp, or whatever. It was more like openly admitting to being one, being openly intimate wth other members of the same gender, etc. Not all homosexuals are camp or drag queens.

Even if I don't agree with the notion of being 'gay', which is a modern construct, I do agree with sister Ruqaya that being attracted to people of the same sex is a trial some people are affected with, and the Muslim community in general should treat them with more understanding and kindness and less misinformed bigotry. That doesn't mean approving of deviant sexual practices which are clearly against Islam, but allowing those who suffer from these problems to be able to discuss them more openly and get support to be able to deal with them.

Edited by Haider Husayn, 02 September 2011 - 12:16 PM.

[ImAli]

Haider Husayn, on 02 September 2011 - 11:43 AM, said:

As so often with the sisterhood, their alliance only lasts as long as they are defending their own interests. Once they move amway from that, the cracks start appearing. This is why Muslims should be busy defending Islam, and not their gender, nation, race, or anything else.

By the way, when I was talking about being openly homosexual, I wasn't really so much talking about being camp, or whatever. It was more like openly admitting to being one, being openly intimite wth other members of the same gender, etc. Not all homosexuals are camp or drag queens.

Even if I don't agree with the notion of being 'gay', which is a modern construct, I do agree with sister Ruqaya that being attracted to people of the same sex is a trial some people are affected with, and the Muslim community in general should treat them with more understanding and kindness and less misinformed bigotry. That doesn't mean approving of deviant sexual practices which are clearly against Islam, but allowing those who suffer from these problems to be able to discuss them more openly and get support to be able to deal with them.

Who said there were cracks Haider? I wasn't angry I was just explaining that I prefer not to be around it....there isn't anything wrong with having a personal preference. Although I must say you and Ruqaya obviously have alot more hope for the world than I do. I think it is a big fat chance that people will try to overcome this difficulty they were born with in the world we are in today and marry a member of the opposite sex or remain abstinent, especially when they are encouraged to indulge in it.

[Ruq]

ImAli, on 02 September 2011 - 11:37 AM, said:

I'm not in the U.K. and I understand it won't make them gay, don't worry I am not that dense. The thing is I don't feel like explaining to a 5 or 6 year old why those two men are holding hands and snuggling in the street and why one of them is wearing stilettos........instead I will make a huge detour.

O lol, yep, kids can come out with the most mortifying questions i  know. Im not a mother but i appreciate wanting to delay provoking those questions, it must be a hard judgement call on how much to say and how to say it.

This issue of camp-ness is an interesting one i think and it seems very subject to cultural context. For instance, my partner went to Iraq this year and he said how men hold hands there and how a man had held his hand. I was like 'what!?!?' lol, because if i saw 2 men holding hands in the UK i would assume they were gay, and imagining seeing my partner walking down the street golding a mans hand somehow completely freaked me out. I find that really hard to get my head around, because holding hands is such sustained and casual intimate contact.

Edited by ~Ruqaya's Amal~, 02 September 2011 - 11:54 AM.

[ImAli]

~Ruqaya, on 02 September 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

O lol, yep, kids can come out with the most mortifying questions i  know. Im not a mother but i appreciate wanting to delay provoking those questions, it must be a hard judgement call on how much to say and how to say it.

This issue of camp-ness is an interesting one i think and it seems very subject to cultural context. For instance, my partner went to Iraq this year and he said how men hold hands there and how a man had held his hand. I was like 'what!?!?' lol, because if i saw 2 men holding hands in the UK i would assume they were gay, and imagining seeing my partner walking down the street golding a mans hand somehow completely freaked me out. I find that really hard to get my head around, because holding hands is such sustained and casual intimate contact.

You know I was in China and it was normal for 2 heterosexual men to hold hands or put arms around each other in the street as it was for women. Here it is sort of taboo and I was shocked, eventually I got used to it. Anyway I want to avoid this until they are teenagers and actually know a little bit more about the birds and bees. Oh yeah my views are rather mild......you should meet my mother in law, she openly voices that she wants to kill all of them

Edited by ImAli, 02 September 2011 - 12:00 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

ImAli, on 02 September 2011 - 11:51 AM, said:

Who said there were cracks Haider? I wasn't angry I was just explaining that I prefer not to be around it....there isn't anything wrong with having a personal preference. Although I must say you and Ruqaya obviously have alot more hope for the world than I do. I think it is a big fat chance that people will try to overcome this difficulty they were born with in the world we are in today and marry a member of the opposite sex or remain abstinent, especially when they are encouraged to indulge in it.

I didn't say I held out any hope, just that this is what Muslims should do. I have no doubt that the trend of humanity is towards greater and greater depravity, while at the same time thinking we are becoming more and more advanced.

What I do believe is that there are a number of sincere Muslims out there struggling with these issues, are trying to overcome them, and they are suffering from not receiving any help or guidance. If Muslims adopted a different attitude, then maybe at least a few of these people could be saved.

Also, I don't believe that many 'gays' are born that way. The few that are should be classified as being born with some kind of mental disability, and work should be done to find a treatment. For the majority of others, they are either traumatised by some event in childhood (whether they always remember it or not), or make a conscious choice. There are plenty of well-known 'gays' that openly admit to finding certain women attractive, and who are able to have families, but for who just choose to give in to their base desires and have homosexual relationships. This is very common among politicians for example. If you live with a wife for 20 years and have kids with her, what possible excuse is there? All they can say is they find men more attractive than they do women, which is no excuse at all.

[ImAli]

Haider Husayn, on 02 September 2011 - 12:02 PM, said:

I didn't say I held out any hope, just that this is what Muslims should do. I have no doubt that the trend of humanity is towards greater and greater depravity, while at the same time thinking we are becoming more and more advanced.

What I do believe is that there are a number of sincere Muslims out there struggling with these issues, are trying to overcome them, and they are suffering from not receiving any help or guidance. If Muslims adopted a different attitude, then maybe at least a few of these people could be saved.

Also, I don't believe that many 'gays' are born that way. The few that are should be classified as being born with some kind of mental disability, and work should be done to find a treatment. For the majority of others, they are either traumatised by some event in childhood (whether they always remember it or not), or make a conscious choice. There are plenty of well-known 'gays' that openly admit to finding certain women attractive, and who are able to have families, but for who just choose to give in to their base desires and have homosexual relationships. This is very common among politicians for example. If you live with a wife for 20 years and have kids with her, what possible excuse is there? All they can say is they find men more attractive than they do women, which is no excuse at all.

Indeed it is a very complex and confusing issue as to what causes it. I once asked a gay man why he is gay and he told me that he knew this since he was a child and preferred dolls and wanted to have a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend. Then like you said there are people married 20 years and suddenly indulge in homosexual tendencies........but anyway this is way off topic so I will stop now.

[Ruq]

Haider Husayn, on 02 September 2011 - 11:43 AM, said:

As so often with the sisterhood, their alliance only lasts as long as they are defending their own interests. Once they move amway from that, the cracks start appearing. This is why Muslims should be busy defending Islam, and not their gender, nation, race, or anything else.

By the way, when I was talking about being openly homosexual, I wasn't really so much talking about being camp, or whatever. It was more like openly admitting to being one, being openly intimate wth other members of the same gender, etc. Not all homosexuals are camp or drag queens.

Even if I don't agree with the notion of being 'gay', which is a modern construct, I do agree with sister Ruqaya that being attracted to people of the same sex is a trial some people are affected with, and the Muslim community in general should treat them with more understanding and kindness and less misinformed bigotry. That doesn't mean approving of deviant sexual practices which are clearly against Islam, but allowing those who suffer from these problems to be able to discuss them more openly and get support to be able to deal with them.

a) can you explain how me asking sister ImAli a question about her opinion constitutes 'cracks'? what does that even mean? can you only relate to people unless they have exactly the same perspective as you do? its called a conversation >.> no one is at war here surely, arent we all just trying to struggle through and find an understanding?

its nice to see a more warm and generous side to you regarding your second point. Have you hired a PR advisor?

[Ruq]

ImAli, on 02 September 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

Indeed it is a very complex and confusing issue as to what causes it. I once asked a gay man why he is gay and he told me that he knew this since he was a child and preferred dolls and wanted to have a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend. Then like you said there are people married 20 years and suddenly indulge in homosexual tendencies........but anyway this is way off topic so I will stop now.

No dont stop just as Haider and I are in danger of agreeing on something =D

It does seem to be a complicated issue yep, it throws up all sorts of questions like what homosexuality even is. Im aware of men who are gay in ther sense that they only find men sexually attractive, yet are repulsed by the sexual act and never do it, yet, you have situations where macho criminals with no history of of homosexual activity go into gaol and start jumping men. There seems to be some kind of gay scale where some men will start to have gay feelings in certain circumstances or will only indulge it when there arent available women and then at the other end there are men who would rather be attracted to women but have a body that only seems to be aroused by other men. I saw a documentary once with a muslim man who had this very burden and it was a huge struggle. He married hoping it would somehow change things but it didnt and he felt he was an inadequate husband because he couldnt desire his wife as he thought she should be. I really felt for him.

[Haydar Husayn]

~Ruqaya, on 02 September 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

a) can you explain how me asking sister ImAli a question about her opinion constitutes 'cracks'? what does that even mean? can you only relate to people unless they have exactly the same perspective as you do? its called a conversation >.> no one is at war here surely, arent we all just trying to struggle through and find an understanding?

Your posts give a completely different impression of your respective views on homosexuals. While you are more consistently 'progressive', sister ImAli seems to have a more shall we say 'traditional' Muslim approach (although as she point out her views are quite mild in comparison to many others).

The point is, it is very interesting that Muslim women from all over the world, from whatever background, will agree to the letter on aspects of Islamic law that affect them or that they can empathise with, but might agree on almost nothing else. This strongly suggests that their views on the part of islamic law that pertains to women are more influenced by their own selfish emotions and desires than they are by any attempt to sincerely follow the religion by submitting to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

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its nice to see a more warm and generous side to you regarding your second point. Have you hired a PR advisor?

Umm, no. Just because I believe in being intellectually consistent, it doesn't mean I am heartless. Additionally, if some of you weren't so busy misrepresenting my views, you would see that I'm probably not as 'anti-women' as you think. I believe in upholding the sunnah of the Prophet with regard to the good treatment of women just as much as I do with the aspects you might consider to be harmful to women. Unfortunately though, I'm usually so busy defending myself against wild accusations and correcting disinformation, that I don't even get the chance to talk about the other stuff.

[HellHound]

I just realized something. Maybe the topic needs to be renamed to "those who encourage it but CAN'T follow it"... What if the accused in this thread are not able to practice it due to societal barriers and influences? Can you really blame them?

Edited by Legio Invicta, 02 September 2011 - 01:26 PM.

[Ruq]

Haider Husayn, on 02 September 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

Your posts give a completely different impression of your respective views on homosexuals. While you are more consistently 'progressive', sister ImAli seems to have a more shall we say 'traditional' Muslim approach (although as she point out her views are quite mild in comparison to many others).

The point is, it is very interesting that Muslim women from all over the world, from whatever background, will agree to the letter on aspects of Islamic law that affect them or that they can empathise with, but might agree on almost nothing else. This strongly suggests that their views on the part of islamic law that pertains to women are more influenced by their own selfish emotions and desires than they are by any attempt to sincerely follow the religion by submitting to Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

From what ever background? so now it doesnt matter that ive grown up in a liberal, permissive west, this isnt now the reason that i challange your view, but just by virture of my gender. Does it completely pass you by that so many men see the inherent injustice of the issues we've discussed? how many men have voiced concern about the idea of slavery being encouraged or forced sex being permitted? you think you can only find the idea of forced sex abhorrant if youre a woman? you think you can only find deception undesirable if youre a woman? so men like to be deceived and lied to generally do they? they seem like universal principles to me.


instead of talking about how women are doing haram by feeling threatened by other woman who their husbands may be carrying on with and how abhorrant this jealousy is and how we should  be living polygamous lives like the ahlulnayt(as) did, how about we talk about the jealousy so common with men and their money? is this no less of a 'haram' jealousy? How many muslims men do you see living like Imam Ali(As)? i will need you to point them out, because most of the men i see are not spending of what God gave them in the way of God, they are guarding their money very jealousy thank you very much. So it seems women are not the only practitioners of selfish 'haram' jealousy.

O and where do you get 'almost nothing else' from? ImAli and i didnt actually disagree on anything regarding Islam and homosexuality.

Edited by ~Ruqaya's Amal~, 02 September 2011 - 02:29 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

~Ruqaya, on 02 September 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

From what ever background? so now it doesnt matter that ive grown up in a liberal, permissive west, this isnt now the reason that i challange your view, but just by virture of my gender.

Clearly growing up in the West can't be the reason for challenging my view, since I grew up in the West too. What is more relevant is that people from all over the world have been brainwashed into thinking that Western values are somehow objectively correct, and will challenge Islam using Western values as the furqan. Not everyone is able to undo this brainwashing.

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Does it completely pass you by that so many men see the inherent injustice of the issues we've discussed? how many men have voiced concern about the idea of slavery being encouraged or forced sex being permitted? you think you can only find the idea of forced sex abhorrant if youre a woman? you think you can only find deception undesirable if youre a woman? so men like to be deceived and lied to generally do they? they seem like universal principles to me.

Men have been brainwashed in the same way, but deep down most of them probably wouldn't care so much if it wasn't for how it would make them look in front of women. (btw, I don't accept your description of secret mutas being deception or lies)

I would like to once again point out that I never approved of forcing sex on anyone (and gave evidence against such behaviour), so I would appreciate it if some of you stopped giving that impression. Neither did I recommend to anyone to do muta (secret or otherwise), to practice polygamy, or to take slaves. Saying that something is halal is not the same thing as recommending it to people or promoting it. What people want to do with their lives is their business, and it doesn't concern me as long as it is halal. What does concern me is people making others feel bad for doing something that is halal or even mustahabb. That is completely unacceptable, and is bad for society.

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instead of talking about how women are doing haram by feeling threatened by other woman who their husbands may be carrying on with and how abhorrant this jealousy is and how we should  be living polygamous lives like the ahlulnayt(as) did, how about we talk about the jealousy so common with men and their money? is this no less of a 'haram' jealousy? How many muslims men do you see living like Imam Ali(As)? i will need you to point them out, because most of the men i see are not spending of what God gave them in the way of God, they are guarding their money very jealousy thank you very much. So it seems women are not the only practitioners of selfish 'haram' jealousy.

Ok, when someone opens a thread about that, I might say something. Let me remind you that I am not the one opening these threads, and generally only start posting in them when something I think is incorrect is left unchallenged.

[HellHound]

Haider Husayn, on 02 September 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

I would like to once again point out that I never approved of forcing sex on anyone (and gave evidence against such behaviour), so I would appreciate it if some of you stopped giving that impression. Neither did I recommend to anyone to do muta (secret or otherwise), to practice polygamy, or to take slaves. Saying that something is halal is not the same thing as recommending it to people or promoting it. What people want to do with their lives is their business, and it doesn't concern me as long as it is halal. What does concern me is people making others feel bad for doing something that is halal or even mustahabb. That is completely unacceptable, and is bad for society.

I think you've been pointing this out in the thread ad nauseum, but some characters in this thread fail to get it through their thick skulls...

[Ruq]

Haider Husayn, on 02 September 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

(btw, I don't accept your description of secret mutas being deception or lies)

I would like to once again point out that I never approved of forcing sex on anyone (and gave evidence against such behaviour), so I would appreciate it if some of you stopped giving that impression. Neither did I recommend to anyone to do muta (secret or otherwise), to practice polygamy, or to take slaves. Saying that something is halal is not the same thing as recommending it to people or promoting it. What people want to do with their lives is their business, and it doesn't concern me as long as it is halal. What does concern me is people making others feel bad for doing something that is halal or even mustahabb. That is completely unacceptable, and is bad for society.



Ok, when someone opens a thread about that, I might say something. Let me remind you that I am not the one opening these threads, and generally only start posting in them when something I think is incorrect is left unchallenged.

I would like to see what your definition of 'deception' is in that case.

The amount of effort youve given to these subjects constitutes promotion of a concept you have. Your source for your assertion that its halal to force sex on a slave woman is not infallible for instance, so these concepts are up for debate within the larger framework, though you present them as infallible fact. You are going further than simply stating that according to such and such ahadith something is halal, you are asserting that non of our opinions or views have any worth because we are not producing a ahadith with it, yet why do i need a hadith to justify every opinion i have in the world? like i said in this thread or another, i know over exercising can be bad for your health because i see the evidence for it, there is no ahadith that tells me that, its my empirical experience in the world that tells me. Why is my assertion that its wrong to force sex on someone and my evidence for that of no value?

[Haydar Husayn]

~Ruqaya, on 02 September 2011 - 03:34 PM, said:

I would like to see what your definition of 'deception' is in that case.

If a man has a right to do something without telling anyone, then why would exercising that right constitute deception? You think of it as deception because you start from the assumption that the man has no such right. On the other hand, if a man has an agreement with his wife that he won't do muta while married to her, and then does, that is deception.

A woman has a right to her money. If she buys something without telling her husband, is that deception?

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The amount of effort youve given to these subjects constitutes promotion of a concept you have.

Not at all. Promotion would be opening threads encouraging people to do this stuff, or at least explicitly promoting it in my posts. What I am doing is correcting incorrect information and attitudes being spread about Islam, to the best of my ability.

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Your source for your assertion that its halal to force sex on a slave woman is not infallible for instance, so these concepts are up for debate within the larger framework, though you present them as infallible fact.

They are fact for anyone that wants to be consistent in his acceptance of ahadith. Let's say you have two hadith, with the same chain of narrators, and neither contradict the Qur'an. Both have the same number of similar ahadith to support them. Are you telling me it is consistent to accept one because you like it, or reject the other because you don't?

Regarding the specific instance of forcing slaves to have sex, everything is halal until proven haraam. So it's up to you (or someone else) to prove it is haraam, using the Qur'an and ahadith as sources. Personally, I think it is impossible to do this. However, you might have more success by looking at the fatwas of certain modern scholars. I'm not certain on this, but it is highly likely at least some of them will say that it is haraam, even if others (or maybe even the same ones!) will say it is not haraam to do it to your wife.   Seems weird to me, since at least there are well-known ahadith showing disaproval for those that have intercourse with their wives without forplay. Again, would be interesting to know if there are any regarding slaves.

Anyway, doesn't change the other aspects of slavery that you probably disagree with.

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You are going further than simply stating that according to such and such ahadith something is halal, you are asserting that non of our opinions or views have any worth because we are not producing a ahadith with it, yet why do i need a hadith to justify every opinion i have in the world?

No, just the opinions that relate to islamic jurisprudence or beliefs. Otherwise, you could post the opinions of scholars. You can't go around saying things are halal or haraam based on your own personal desires. That is stricly forbidden in Islam.

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like i said in this thread or another, i know over exercising can be bad for your health because i see the evidence for it, there is no ahadith that tells me that, its my empirical experience in the world that tells me. Why is my assertion that its wrong to force sex on someone and my evidence for that of no value?

Firstly, there are ahadith on moderation in various aspects of life, even worship.

Secondly, it is one thing to give your opinion that overexercising is bad for you health, and quite another to say that doing so is haraam without proof. If you want to say having many muta wives could potentially be damaging to a person's health, or that of his wife, if sufficient precautions aren't taken, and another to say that having several muta wives is haraam (directly contradicting several ahadith), or criticising those who do it (or promote it). If you are so concerned, you can advise to person, but you shouldn't attack them.

What many of you have missed is that the problem isn't so much with your concerns, which are understandable, as it is with your approach, which is unislamic.

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

DeeeeeBo, on 02 September 2011 - 04:14 AM, said:

now when you say you are you referring to me ? this is the only post i had ever made and it wasnt about mut3a it was about those advocating it in mass production, while stepping on the necks of those who may disagree with it at that level. It may be halal, but if one was to take other considerations into it, ie emotion, diseases and mental corruption, then one may have to slow it down a pace, if he or she might fall off the fence !

This has nothing with how it "should be" but rather, how everyone has a different opinion, and if one does not agree with the other, those copy n pasting every hadith on mut3a, should not put down the others and start making judgements about them. If it wasnt for Hassan Haidar critizing me and making me out to be a deviant and having a lack in Iman and faith, because i am not into having mut3a behind my future wifes back, because i care for her emotional feelings , and if i was in her shoes i wouldnt like to have it done to me, then i dont think it was nice the way he went about it. Then all of a sudden the other crew jumped in and made the matter even bigger and blew things right off the bat, which in turn made me furious and disgusted at the way some people ram down things towards other people, and can be so judgemental.

Cant we just have different opinions and leave it at that ? i would of left it at that, but Mr Haidar decided to take it a step to far, and truth being said, im not a push over guy. So this is why i did what i did.

I find it also funny how you mention "brother" before you mention 14infallibles, yet you dont mention it before my name ?

Brother DeBoo, Akhi, i have no clue what you asked me earlier. I am in med school so i really dont have time to read all these long responses, mostly i glance over and reply. As i said earlier in one of threads, I am not against people (my opinion is not worth 2 cents in islam) choosing not to do Mutah or polygamy because it doesnt apply to them or are uncomfortable with, what makes me upset is that they give stupid reasons or ask for reasons on why it should be done. If Allah (swt) has allowed it, then who is anyone to ask for reasons about it. If you dont wana do it, then dont. Dont ask brother alimohammad, and hussain for reasons to promote it or stand for it. If they want to do it and are following the rulings completely right, then stop questioning them. I mean there is a long thread on why sisters are complaining that a man cant be just with both wives, and they give their personal feelings as proofs rather then Quran or Hadith. Brothers are standing up for something halal. Secondly, the last thing people want to do is ask sisters for opinions about polygamy or mutah. Lets be honest here, we all know thats a recipe for disaster. They wont understand it, hence one of the reasons why Allah (swt) said not to ask their permission.
Regarding ideology differences, sis Ruqaya as she said follows people who dont have favorable opinion on leaders of revolution (excluding hasnain) so there really isnt much to discuss with her. Lets not discuss this point and hijack the thread

[Haydar Husayn]

Awaiting_for_the12th, on 02 September 2011 - 09:47 PM, said:

Regarding ideology differences, sis Ruqaya as she said follows people who dont have favorable opinion on leaders of revolution (excluding hasnain) so there really isnt much to discuss with her.

That's a bit harsh. First of all, I don't think we should be making people's opinion of the leaders of the Revolution as some kind of litmus test for whether a person is ideologically sound or not, and secondly I doubt she is even aware of their opinions on the matter. It's not even all that clear to me what Sayyid Nakshawani's position is for example. I have read certain vague rumours about his possible views, but in his lectures at least he gives a favourable impression of Sayyid Khomeini for example. As for Moderassi, I guess many people are aware of his views, but by no means everyone.

Edited by Haider Husayn, 02 September 2011 - 10:07 PM.

[Ruq]

Haider Husayn, on 02 September 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:

If a man has a right to do something without telling anyone, then why would exercising that right constitute deception? You think of it as deception because you start from the assumption that the man has no such right. On the other hand, if a man has an agreement with his wife that he won't do muta while married to her, and then does, that is deception.

A woman has a right to her money. If she buys something without telling her husband, is that deception?


Not at all. Promotion would be opening threads encouraging people to do this stuff, or at least explicitly promoting it in my posts. What I am doing is correcting incorrect information and attitudes being spread about Islam, to the best of my ability.


They are fact for anyone that wants to be consistent in his acceptance of ahadith. Let's say you have two hadith, with the same chain of narrators, and neither contradict the Qur'an. Both have the same number of similar ahadith to support them. Are you telling me it is consistent to accept one because you like it, or reject the other because you don't?

Regarding the specific instance of forcing slaves to have sex, everything is halal until proven haraam. So it's up to you (or someone else) to prove it is haraam, using the Qur'an and ahadith as sources. Personally, I think it is impossible to do this. However, you might have more success by looking at the fatwas of certain modern scholars. I'm not certain on this, but it is highly likely at least some of them will say that it is haraam, even if others (or maybe even the same ones!) will say it is not haraam to do it to your wife.   Seems weird to me, since at least there are well-known ahadith showing disaproval for those that have intercourse with their wives without forplay. Again, would be interesting to know if there are any regarding slaves.

Anyway, doesn't change the other aspects of slavery that you probably disagree with.


No, just the opinions that relate to islamic jurisprudence or beliefs. Otherwise, you could post the opinions of scholars. You can't go around saying things are halal or haraam based on your own personal desires. That is stricly forbidden in Islam.


Firstly, there are ahadith on moderation in various aspects of life, even worship.

Secondly, it is one thing to give your opinion that overexercising is bad for you health, and quite another to say that doing so is haraam without proof. If you want to say having many muta wives could potentially be damaging to a person's health, or that of his wife, if sufficient precautions aren't taken, and another to say that having several muta wives is haraam (directly contradicting several ahadith), or criticising those who do it (or promote it). If you are so concerned, you can advise to person, but you shouldn't attack them.

What many of you have missed is that the problem isn't so much with your concerns, which are understandable, as it is with your approach, which is unislamic.

if he's doing nothing wrong them why hide it?  the only way you example would be a fair comparison is if the wife was deliberately hiding her spending and doing something with her money that could threaten the security of the family. Deception is:

• misrepresentation: a misleading falsehood

Regarding ahadith, if neithers evidence for truth is hugely convincing you should treat them with equal skepticism, the cosy one as well as the disturbing one.

You are making a point about muta that ive never argued against. I have 1 issue in the marriage threads and that is this idea that deception that threatens a person/family is acceptible with a disregard for the fundemental damage it does. Ive never suggested that consenting adults shouldnt be allowed to practice polygamy or muta.

[ImAli]

What a shame coming from someone in med school. How could someone in the health care industry not realize it is the wife's right to know.

[Ruq]

Awaiting_for_the12th, on 02 September 2011 - 09:47 PM, said:

Regarding ideology differences, sis Ruqaya as she said follows people who dont have favorable opinion on leaders of revolution (excluding hasnain) so there really isnt much to discuss with her. Lets not discuss this point and hijack the thread

What have 'leaders of revolutions' got to do with anything?

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

ImAli, on 03 September 2011 - 09:34 AM, said:

What a shame coming from someone in med school. How could someone in the health care industry not realize it is the wife's right to know.

right to know about what? if husband can have another wife, then its Allah (swt) that has said that there is no need to ask permission from first wive. You cannot seperate religion from your career.

[ImAli]

Awaiting_for_the12th, on 03 September 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:

right to know about what? if husband can have another wife, then its Allah (swt) that has said that there is no need to ask permission from first wive. You cannot seperate religion from your career.

Honestly no disrespect or offense to you, I may come off that way because you don't see my facial expressions or hear my tone.....but don't you see the holes in that? I honestly don't know about another woman's hygiene or what her ex husband has done (you don't need to be a promiscuous person to have an STD) with others or may have carried home to her. Sure blood tests are great but not every disease is picked up by a blood test. For example herpes usually goes undetected unless the person is in a breakout or shedding the virus and many people shed the virus without symptoms. Of course you can check spinal fluid....but who does that?

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

if its about spreading the disease then offcourse there are ways to avoid that using protections. Is it worth it? i would say not at all. A person should obviously avoid harming others. Again, as i keep telling people not everyone HAS to do muta, if they are eligible then they should. If one is eligible for second marriage then he should not just do it to fulfill his desires (nothing wrong even if he does it for this reason) but rather i am incline more towards helping the society where there are many widows and orphans who need help. I am only arguing about permissibility of it, not EVERYONE has to do it, and again spread of diseases is not a legit reason as a whole. It might be in certain cases, but if you see as a whole islamic ummah then its a really lame reason.
In a sincere relationship, a couple should always disclose any diseases they have and if they want, they can get tested to assure each other before marriage.