234 replies to this topic

[MysticKnight]

 Problems.rtf   96.53K   648 downloads

I wrote 28 issues there. If anyone finds a solution to any of them, just post it.

[ImAli]

Perhaps you should send this request to Sistani or someone else even though it may take a while to get back to you. On here you will only get a bunch of fighting and disagreement which will lead to further confusion.

[Islamic Salvation]

At least do not advertise so bravely your opposition to the Qur'an, perhaps that may act as a saving grace for you from your provocativeness to God, you tread so abrasively and casually in a matter wherein more courageous ones then you have hesitated.

Khayr, if it is trully your aim to get some explanations to these 'problems' - maybe you can find a more modicum tone, and realize that most of these just need a bit more reflection to understand.

If it is the truth you want - may you find it, and if it is the games of one targetted by God for spiritual destruction through placing him/her in constancy of doubts and pride in self conceited blindness then may you be guided before you go too far in the alley of opposition and take others with you.

[MysticKnight]

Islamic Salvation, I know how you feel, your basically judging me through your Islamic lenses now, I'm the evil disbeliever now that is promised torment, opposes God, etc. You feel the need to preach to me, and of course your assuming you are correct in your view, and I am wrong.

I lost count of how many issues I had, I would read Quran, and I would find problems and problems. I start posting a few of these, and there was no good response. I wait, post some more, no good response. After thinking about some of these issues for several months now, I can tell you I reflected a lot about it.

In fact, when I believed, it was because of lack of reflection. I've read these verses so many times without any issue with them, but reflection caused me to have issues.

Rather then starting a bunch of topics, I thought I would write it all in one document. A person having a strong view after thorough analysis is natural, be it on wrong or on true premises.

You have a strong view of Islam, and your being condescending to me right now, because of your strong perspective.

Why should I not advertise that I have issues with the Quran? So people are not aware of these problems, and just read the verses without ever investigating the problems that others have with them? So that I don't get feedback?

You put doubts on my intentions of seeking truth in it, but what about you? Are you willing to consider that there are logical errors in Quran or are you shutting your view off of it, that no matter what, it must be right in it's claim?

[ImAli]

MysticKnight, on 19 August 2011 - 02:10 PM, said:

Islamic Salvation, I know how you feel, your basically judging me through your Islamic lenses now, I'm the evil disbeliever now that is promised torment, opposes God, etc. You feel the need to preach to me, and of course your assuming you are correct in your view, and I am wrong.

I lost count of how many issues I had, I would read Quran, and I would find problems and problems. I start posting a few of these, and there was no good response. I wait, post some more, no good response. After thinking about some of these issues for several months now, I can tell you I reflected a lot about it.

In fact, when I believed, it was because of lack of reflection. I've read these verses so many times without any issue with them, but reflection caused me to have issues.

Rather then starting a bunch of topics, I thought I would write it all in one document. A person having a strong view after thorough analysis is natural, be it on wrong or on true premises.

You have a strong view of Islam, and your being condescending to me right now, because of your strong perspective.

Why should I not advertise that I have issues with the Quran? So people are not aware of these problems, and just read the verses without ever investigating the problems that others have with them? So that I don't get feedback?

You put doubts on my intentions of seeking truth in it, but what about you? Are you willing to consider that there are logical errors in Quran or are you shutting your view off of it, that no matter what, it must be right in it's claim?

Once again you should know that there isn't anyone on here knowledgeable enough to address your questions or concerns and this will only turn into fights and insults being thrown around. Try this place instead http://www.sistani.o...c=send_question

Edited by ImAli, 19 August 2011 - 02:52 PM.

[MysticKnight]

From the link you gave me:

2) We do not reply to lengthy messages containing many questions due a heavy load of tasks.

I suppose I can write each one by itself, and send it to them, but I think if I flood with 28 questions, they might send me an email back telling me they don't have time to respond for the same reason as they wouldn't for a lengthy message containing many questions.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

MysticNight, I will look through your list and try my best to answer, inshallah. Just give me some time.

[MysticKnight]

اهل البيت, on 19 August 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:

MysticNight, I will look through your list and try my best to answer, inshallah. Just give me some time.

Take your time.

[ImAli]

Syed Ali Khameni = http://www.leader.ir...x.php?p=istifta

Syed Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah = http://english.bayyn...lb/QA/sendq.htm

Also if you manage to get results from any of them please post what was told to you.

[Ruq]

I think its great that youre striving for truth and determined to learn and understand, it takes effort to do that and so many people dont bother. Dont feel despondant when people on SC arent able to resolve these struggles though, maybe you need to get in touch with a marja to help you with these in depth issues. Dont give up on it MK.

[ImAli]

Try this guy too....he is very open minded.

Syed Hassan Al-Qazwini = http://www.qazwini.org/ just scroll to the bottom an you can ask your question

[Imposter]

Just out of curiosity, what steps have you taken (or are taking) to reconcile these contradictions you've found?

[MysticKnight]

Imposter, on 19 August 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity, what steps have you taken (or are taking) to reconcile these contradictions you've found?

I've posted a few of them, a while back I posted some of them, I thought found solution for some after discussion, but it turned out I didn't. With the few I was posting weren't resolved, I found more. Been thinking about them. But something that happened is that I no longer felt I knew Quran was true, and then it questioned my whole experience with it, and feeling of it, and then I felt there was no way to know. It's just a initial feeling we stick to, but when it comes under doubt, there is no way to know Quran is true. When that feeling came, I noticed more errors. Basically instead of reading Quran with emotion and belief, I was reading intellectually and critically. Then I found more problems. I thought about possible solutions to them, and that's about it.

I'm discussing with you guys now. So a question, is what steps are you going to take to resolve these issues? Or are you going to ignore them?

[OneOfTheSyyeds]

Assalam oe alakum!
Sorry bro i can only help give you links to quran understanding, no one here really can answer this without years of studying the quran, so i guess the least i can do is give you a websitehttp://www.omeriqbal.com/a/1 Inshallah Allah will help you

[Orion]

Grand Shia Cleric: Scholars Must Answer the Religious Doubts and Questions


Grand Ayatollah Nori Hamdani said that the program to satisfy and resolve religious doubts and questions, organized in the sanctuary of Rizvi, is of great importance and the scholars and religious students have an important responsibility to respond to the religious questions and doubts.

(Ahlul Bayt News Agency) - Grand Ayatollah Nori Hamdani said in a gathering of teachers and experts of the religious questions, answers and information department of Astan-e-Qudas Rizvi that an important responsibility of scholars and religious students is; to inform the people with the answers of religious questions and doubts.
He added that a satisfying answer that becomes the source of society’s guidance is better than everything that sun puts its light on.
The website of Astan-e-Qudas Rizvi reported that the offices are present in different courtyards of the sanctuary of Rizvi to answer the religious questions asked by men and women.
It is said that last year eight hundred and fifty thousand people, by visiting these offices, have get the answers of their questions about faith and training.
/106

http://www.abna.ir/d...ang=3&id=260322

[rotten_coconut]

I see that your problems are more related to tafsir. Have you tried to read tafsir by our scholars?
Your questions are not something that can be answered shortly in a Q&A section of a marja'. If you're really serious in finding the answers to this & remove the doubts in your mind, then I suggest to find a knowledgeable scholar in tafsir in your area who you can address these questions too. If you don't find one, depends on how serious you are, you can even try to fly to another place.
Just as Mutahhari said, doubt is good because it can deliver you to a higher degree of yaqin, as long as you have the perseverence & keep learning to know the truth.

[Vigilare]

rotten_coconut, on 19 August 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

...Just as Mutahhari said, doubt is good because it can deliver you to a higher degree of yaqin, as long as you have the perseverence & keep learning to know the truth.

Agree 100%. Too many people give up when they come across something they don't understand or begin to have doubts (but I'm not saying this is the case here).

Having looked at the list, some of it I think relates to ayat's that are complemented by hadith/tafsir.  Some surely must be taken in context of the reason of revelation eg. disbelievers at the time of the Prophet

[Muhammed Ali]

Quote

Another contradiction is that Quran says all living things were made from water, yet we read jinn were created from fire. As well there is verses that say everything glorifies God, so it would be all things in the universe are created from water, which simply is not true. Now a metaphysical meaning of water hardly makes sense, why would it state water as opposed to purity or light.

1, A thing can be created from both water and fire.
2, Being able to glorify God does not mean it is alive. I can make a computer praise me, is it alive? Thinkers over the centuries have struggled to define life so you need to make sure you are not jumping to hasty assumptions.

[MysticKnight]

Muhammed Ali, on 19 August 2011 - 11:35 PM, said:

1, A thing can be created from both water and fire.
2, Being able to glorify God does not mean it is alive. I can make a computer praise me, is it alive? Thinkers over the centuries have struggled to define life so you need to make sure you are not jumping to hasty assumptions.

Thanks Muhammad Ali. However, I think if something glorifies God, like a mountain glorifying with Sulaiman, it means it's alive. I also don't know how it's possible or impossible for water and fire to be together, so that point of yours will be valid. I guess we would have to assume Angels are created from water and light as well.

rotten_coconut, on 19 August 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

I see that your problems are more related to tafsir. Have you tried to read tafsir by our scholars?
Your questions are not something that can be answered shortly in a Q&A section of a marja'. If you're really serious in finding the answers to this & remove the doubts in your mind, then I suggest to find a knowledgeable scholar in tafsir in your area who you can address these questions too. If you don't find one, depends on how serious you are, you can even try to fly to another place.
Just as Mutahhari said, doubt is good because it can deliver you to a higher degree of yaqin, as long as you have the perseverence & keep learning to know the truth.

I am planning to continue to seek answers to these questions. I just today informed my family. My brother brought a good point, in that I have changed ideas completely time to time.

You guys remember when  I was 180 degrees against Tawasul, but I came back. Although I really don't see myself coming back, I never do close my mind and always re-investigate my position.

I honestly don't see my self becoming convinced of Islam again for even other reasons then logical errors. I feel my theology cannot let me accept the wrath and severe punishment as demostrated by quran. also the non-love towards disbelievers, and so on.

[Muhammed Ali]

MysticKnight, on 19 August 2011 - 11:58 PM, said:

it means it's alive.

That's an unjustified assumption. It's quite obvious that glorification in those verses doesn't necessarily mean vocal and willing glorification. Even If it is is vocal, it doesn't means it's alive. That would be like saying the flaming bush was alive.


{13:15} And whoever is in the heavens and the earth makes obeisance to Allah only, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows too at morn and eve.

Quote

وَآتَاكُمْ مِنْ كُلِّ مَا سَأَلْتُمُوهُ ۚ وَإِنْ تَعُدُّوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ لَا تُحْصُوهَا ۗ إِنَّ الْإِنْسَانَ لَظَلُومٌ كَفَّارٌ {34}
[Shakir 14:34] And He gives you of all that you ask Him; and if you count Allah's favors, you will not be able to number them; most surely man is very unjust, very ungrateful.
[Pickthal 14:34] And He giveth you of all ye ask of Him, and if ye would count the bounty of Allah ye cannot reckon it. Lo! man is verily a wrong-doer, an ingrate.
[Yusufali 14:34] And He giveth you of all that ye ask for. But if ye count the favours of Allah, never will ye be able to number them. Verily, man is given up to injustice and ingratitude.

وَإِذَا سَأَلَكَ عِبَادِي عَنِّي فَإِنِّي قَرِيبٌ ۖ أُجِيبُ دَعْوَةَ الدَّاعِ إِذَا دَعَانِ ۖ فَلْيَسْتَجِيبُوا لِي وَلْيُؤْمِنُوا بِي لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْشُدُونَ {186}
[Shakir 2:186] And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way.
[Pickthal 2:186] And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am nigh. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright.
[Yusufali 2:186] When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way.

According to these verses, everything we ask of God, we should get a response. Now we know that is simply not true. People make prayers that are not answered. People ask to heal, but they don't get it. Poor people want to get out poverty and ask and don't get it. People whom want to be guided to the truth, ask, but don't get it. Different people of different faiths can ask for paradise but per Quran they won't get it, if they reject revelation. In fact, it's well established fact, that prayers not always answered. We certainly don't get all we ask for.

The first verse uses the word 'min' which means that it probably means from amongst everything we ask for.
The second verse says that Allah answers your call, it doesn't say he grants every wish of yours. If you call me on my phone and ask me "can I have $1000?", I reply "no", did I answer your call?

Edited by Muhammed Ali, 20 August 2011 - 12:55 AM.

[Imposter]

MysticKnight, on 19 August 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

I've posted a few of them, a while back I posted some of them, I thought found solution for some after discussion, but it turned out I didn't. With the few I was posting weren't resolved, I found more. Been thinking about them. But something that happened is that I no longer felt I knew Quran was true, and then it questioned my whole experience with it, and feeling of it, and then I felt there was no way to know. It's just a initial feeling we stick to, but when it comes under doubt, there is no way to know Quran is true. When that feeling came, I noticed more errors. Basically instead of reading Quran with emotion and belief, I was reading intellectually and critically. Then I found more problems. I thought about possible solutions to them, and that's about it.

What I was asking really is have you gone to the same lengths that you went to to find the contradictions to find the solutions? Forgive me if I'm being presumptuous, but it doesn't seem so. And that's not a criticism, just an observation on my part.

For example, in q1 you make the assumption that the belief mentioned in the verses is regarding the message of Muhammad. Ignoring the fact that the message never changed from the beginning anyway, you make a more fundamental assumption: that āmanū means “believe”. Note that 59/23 refers to Allah as “the believer [l-mu'minu]”. How can Allah be a mu'min? Did you notice this in your studies? What questions were raised from it? What conclusions to did you reach as a result? Of course, this would have required you to cross-reference the word and concept in question, which I don't think you did.

In q4 you make an observation about signs being sent. Did you notice the literary technique employed by the restrictive particle illā? How many similar structures in the quran did you examine before reaching your conclusion? For example, did you take a look at 2/78? Did you consider the illogical nature of your conclusion, given that the verse IS a sign? Did you research any other translations other than Pickthal and Ali for comparison? For example, did you see how Shabbir Ahmed manages to understand the use of illā in this structure to produce an understanding that isn't illogical? You make the same error in q6.

In q5 you assume Islam is a religion. Did you find this definition in the quran?

In q9 you suggest that the quran is wrong in saying all things are made from water. When you saw this concept, did you cross-reference the words in question? Surely you came across 11/7? How did this effect your understanding of the verse?

Etc.

I get the impression you didn't do any studies. If you were capable of finding the contradictions through your own efforts, you were capable enough to put in the hours to examine the quranic language and concepts deeper. I'm not saying you would have definitely found the answers, but you wouldn't have written up half the things you did, at least.

Quote

I'm discussing with you guys now.

With respect to all my shia brethren, but you won't find the answers to your questions here. Nor with sunnis. The best that any traditionalist can manage is to quote a few hadith and refer you to tafsir works, which in all likelihood will not address the questions you've raised.

Quote

So a question, is what steps are you going to take to resolve these issues?

I've read your document, and none of these are “issues” to begin with. Most of your issues come from fundamental assumptions which have no basis in the quran. In other instances your objections come from not understanding the grammar structures used, which could have been easily resolved if you simply examined some more instances of the same in the quran. Then there's your own logical arguments. You're guilty at least twice of the either/or fallacy. In other instances you're guilty of uncharitable reading i.e. you ignore the natural usage of language in favour of taking a phrase in isolation literally and running with it.

Quote

Or are you going to ignore them?

For now, yes. That's not because your questions don't deserve to be addressed, but because I question whether you're interested in the answers. If you put in some studies, I might be willing to help.

Use this site to help you cross-reference the words and phrases that trouble you:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp

If you're serious, I imagine you'll come back here and post some of your findings.

From your document:

Quote

Still believe in God though, and will try to be a good person.

That's all you need. If you can keep this conviction then you'll have nothing to fear.

2/112 Rather, whoever submits his face to Allah, and he is a doer of good, then for him his reward is with his Lord. And no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve.

Peace

[asharp]

MysticKnight, on 19 August 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

Problems.rtf

I wrote 28 issues there. If anyone finds a solution to any of them, just post it.

They are not 28 problems they are 28 things you are misunderstanding. You have to see where the verse were revealed , should post this to a aalim. Ie in some places inthe Quran it says there will be no intercession on the day of judgement and then there is clear ayats which say Allah will allow some to intercede....... If you look at it from your lense you will say it is a clear contradiction however there were some verses revealed in Mecca and the others in Medina. The no intercesion relates to those who worshiped idols and those other then Allah.

Edited by asharp, 20 August 2011 - 03:57 AM.

[Gypsy]

I agree with someone who said these are not doubts but your misunderstanding. For e.g see your comment about this verse

Quote

[Yusufali 30:42] Say: "Travel through the earth and see what was the end of those before (you): Most of them worshipped others besides Allah."



The fact is if the Arabs travelled in the earth, no way would they find evidence of destroyed people. They can travel and they would find nothing. This challenge is meaningless. There was no remains of destroyed nations for the Arabs to travel to.

Are you really seeking enlightenment or being obstinate? Have you ever found anyone in the world who says we don't have remnants of past civilizations and evidence that these past civilizations worship other than Allah swt?

[AlHamdulillah110]

when reading the holy Quran, one must be very careful and consider the interpretation and tafseer or commentary of each verse, as each verse was revealed for a specific purpose at a certain event that had occured. Im assuming you took the verses from the al islam website, there is also a check box (Pooya english commentary) please read this aswell, it will provide the explanation of each verse and InshAllah remove some of the misconceptions.

[Nargela]

I hate when people do this, its like they try there hardest to, see what they d0nt understand and not see whats right.

#1. The quran has to many mircles that are non deninable, the Birth of a Child is one that converted many.

#2. Go see the mircles, and than find out when this was discovered to be true. Thats enough too believe.

The shaytan wants u to work so hard too find whats "wr0ng" , u dont see whats right.

Also, i would like too add that if dont believe in Islam, what are you going to believe in?

Edited by Nargela, 20 August 2011 - 07:29 AM.