57 replies to this topic

[MuslimyMuslim]

Assalam alykum, alot of the things the shias believe i believe aswell, ie Ali being the first calaphate,on the other hand, i dont neccessarly support a religious leader that is infallible, the shias though seem to have done better than the catholics    . Can someone here tell me, what are the flaws in other sects and what are the strengths in shia islam?

[HellHound]

iminnosect, on 18 August 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

Assalam alykum, alot of the things the shias believe i believe aswell, ie Ali being the first calaphate,on the other hand, i dont neccessarly support a religious leader that is infallible, the shias though seem to have done better than the catholics    . Can someone here tell me, what are the flaws in other sects and what are the strengths in shia islam?

Tell me, which leader is worthy of following in ALL aspects, a leader in which you can find absolutely no fault, or one in which you find plenty of flaws? Extending on that, isn't it an injustice from Allah if He does not give us an infallible leader to derive an example and a role model out of?

[Pascal]

I think you've found a rather biased (with all respect guys) place to get objective information on such topics. Perhaps look on wikipedia or find a book comparing them? Unless of course, you've already made up your mind somewhat (only you will know) then i guess by all means ask here

[MuslimyMuslim]

Legio Invicta, on 18 August 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

Tell me, which leader is worthy of following in ALL aspects, a leader in which you can find absolutely no fault, or one in which you find plenty of flaws? Extending on that, isn't it an injustice from Allah if He does not give us an infallible leader to derive an example and a role model out of?

Wassalam, i see your point,jakaz Allah khair! but what would be the point of the imam if most of the muslims dont follow him? fo you veiw this as a test from Allah (s.w.t)?

[alimohamad40]

iminnosect, on 18 August 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

Assalam alykum, alot of the things the shias believe i believe aswell, ie Ali being the first calaphate,on the other hand, i dont neccessarly support a religious leader that is infallible, the shias though seem to have done better than the catholics    . Can someone here tell me, what are the flaws in other sects and what are the strengths in shia islam?

salam brother am in hurry but ill write a small thing

the infallible is a logical necessary being

God has the perfect excuse to judge us so he has  a perfect message

the messenger who is a role model and carrying the message needs to convey perfectly so that no human has the excuse to argue with god that the message didn't arrive perfect.
so god chooses the best humans and gives them this responsibility

Isma in reality doesn't mean infallibility it means " Immunity"  or " protection"

The khalif of earth does not Sin because he is the emulating role model and god never orders you to emulate the sins otherwise god will be unjust ordering you to do the sin.

Also for gods justice to be valid he needs to have a Masoom khalif at all times and earth should not be empty from at least one at any given time because the people can argue and say my time did not have the perfect message conveyed directly to us...

but god has " Al7oja al baligha"
the ultimate excuse to judge people

infallibility doesn't mean the perfection because the complete perfection is only for god but it means a relative perfection

it doesn't mean no mistakes but it means no sins
thats why khaikh sadooq says:

"denying that the prophets can forget is the first step towards extremism (Gulu which is shirk)"
this means the prophet can trip or make errors but can not sin

this is the topic of dispute between the followers of alwylayah al takwynyah and the ones who reject it
some say the masoom has the knowledge of the unseen and he can fix your car or the airplane and he has knowledge of every atom in the universe
and some reject this totally and regard it as "Ghulu and Tafweedh"

so


this opinion is however disputed inside the shia school of thought

[tehranashura]

Wa alaikom as salam,

       I am not a scholar, nor am I even close to being a scholar, but Insha'Allah! One day I will be able to study in the Hawza & help to prepare myself to learn Shi'ite Islam more & more & then teach others.

       I just want to tell you that I totally understand how you are feeling. You see that the majority of Moslems are Sunnites. This is just a reality, & it does get difficult to find the truth. I honestly believe that Imam Ali, peace be upon Him, is the Caliph of Prophet Mohammad, peace be upon Him & His pure Family & noble Companions. A lot of bad things happened in Islamic history, & the Family of Prophet Mohammad suffered a lot. The Ahlol Bayht are the true guidance. They are pure without error. Prophet's according to Shia Islam are free from error & sin. Just as the religion of Islam is perfect, so are the Prophets. The Imams come next to the Prophets. The Imams are from the Prophet Mohammad's pure Household. I believe they are infalliable.

     Christianity & Islam are not that much different. The origins of Zoroastrainism, Judaism, Christianity, & Islam are all the same. What happened is that with the passage of time, those religions became man-made. That is the reason that Allah sent Prophet Mohammad to guide the entire mankind. The 12 blessed Imams are a gift from Allah. I think that you need to read some good books about Shia Islam.

   There are really many lies online about Shi'ite Islam. I find it soo sad that some individuals choose to follow & defend wicked people, & they choose to reject & become enemies of the Ahlol Bayht (A.S.). The Ahlol Bayht (A.S.) are the bloodline, the Family, the ones who knew & lived with the Prophet, they knew the Prophet Mohammad the best, more than anyone.

     People commit errors & many things. The Prophet Mohammad, the blessed Imams (A.S.), & the Ahlol Bayht (A.S.) are free of error & sin. In Sunnite Islam, the way that someone becomes a leader is different than in Shia Islam. Shia Islam is the actual original Islam, this is from the Prophet & His Family. How can you seriously claim to the love the Prophet Mohammad & love Imam Hossein (A.S.), the blessed grandson of the Prophet of Islam, & at the same time claim to love satanic tyrants such as Yazid & Muawiyah? Seriously.

     Follow the leader of the Islamic Revolution, Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Khamenei. You can actually see the speeches of His Eminence, & He actually makes public appearances. Ayatollah Sistani, I love as well, but I preffer to follow Sayyid Ali Khamenei.

[Khaled]

This does not make sense to me. It could be argued that it would be an injustice if we did not have the perfect religion, but an infallible leader? It does not follow.

Ali, you say that for God's justice to be valid there must be  a Masoom khalif at all times - where is ours now?

[MuslimyMuslim]

tehranashura, on 19 August 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

Wa alaikom as salam,

   I am not a scholar, nor am I even close to being a scholar, but Insha'Allah! One day I will be able to study in the Hawza & help to prepare myself to learn Shi'ite Islam more & more & then teach others.

   I just want to tell you that I totally understand how you are feeling. You see that the majority of Moslems are Sunnites. This is just a reality, & it does get difficult to find the truth. I honestly believe that Imam Ali, peace be upon Him, is the Caliph of Prophet Mohammad, peace be upon Him & His pure Family & noble Companions. A lot of bad things happened in Islamic history, & the Family of Prophet Mohammad suffered a lot. The Ahlol Bayht are the true guidance. They are pure without error. Prophet's according to Shia Islam are free from error & sin. Just as the religion of Islam is perfect, so are the Prophets. The Imams come next to the Prophets. The Imams are from the Prophet Mohammad's pure Household. I believe they are infalliable.

Christianity & Islam are not that much different. The origins of Zoroastrainism, Judaism, Christianity, & Islam are all the same. What happened is that with the passage of time, those religions became man-made. That is the reason that Allah sent Prophet Mohammad to guide the entire mankind. The 12 blessed Imams are a gift from Allah. I think that you need to read some good books about Shia Islam.

   There are really many lies online about Shi'ite Islam. I find it soo sad that some individuals choose to follow & defend wicked people, & they choose to reject & become enemies of the Ahlol Bayht (A.S.). The Ahlol Bayht (A.S.) are the bloodline, the Family, the ones who knew & lived with the Prophet, they knew the Prophet Mohammad the best, more than anyone.

People commit errors & many things. The Prophet Mohammad, the blessed Imams (A.S.), & the Ahlol Bayht (A.S.) are free of error & sin. In Sunnite Islam, the way that someone becomes a leader is different than in Shia Islam. Shia Islam is the actual original Islam, this is from the Prophet & His Family. How can you seriously claim to the love the Prophet Mohammad & love Imam Hossein (A.S.), the blessed grandson of the Prophet of Islam, & at the same time claim to love satanic tyrants such as Yazid & Muawiyah? Seriously.

Follow the leader of the Islamic Revolution, Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Khamenei. You can actually see the speeches of His Eminence, & He actually makes public appearances. Ayatollah Sistani, I love as well, but I preffer to follow Sayyid Ali Khamenei.

Assalam alykum, interesting, all of the replies! But  The thought of sects in islam makes me saddend,.. To me the fact that Allah (swt) gives us these imams and almost all of them are slain by the ummah seems so pointless and cruel. Almost  gives me a feeling that Allah has abandoned humanity. i can feel his precence when in prayer, but if he really loved the Ummah, wouldnt he be fair and give more influence to his righteous leaders?

  Also, lets say i become shia, all my sunni brothers would call me a kafir, and if i was born shia and became sunni all of you would call me a kafir, either way i would have to hate and be hated, to me this is all sects do is cause division, Honestly would Allah care if i was Salafi and tried my very hardest to model my self like the Prophet , yet the right sect was shia islam? If a sunni trys his hardest to follow the quran, yet he died a sunni, would you still call him a kafir?

  Being in no sect creates a middle way for me, while i may not be 100% supported by a person in a sect,but at least they dont hate me as much as they hate other sects. It allows me to build bridges between sunnis and shias. As long as i keep true to the hadiths, quran and sunnah, isnt this enough?

Is there anything in shia islam thats more?

[Aylia Noor]

iminnosect, on 18 August 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

Assalam alykum, alot of the things the shias believe i believe aswell, ie Ali being the first calaphate,on the other hand, i dont neccessarly support a religious leader that is infallible, the shias though seem to have done better than the catholics. Can someone here tell me, what are the flaws in other sects and what are the strengths in shia islam?

Alykum Salam brother,

You just accepted the most significant flaw yourself =]

[MuslimyMuslim]

Sorry, i didnt think anyone would be offended by the word calaphate

[JimJam]

iminnosect, on 20 August 2011 - 03:46 AM, said:

  Also, lets say i become shia, all my sunni brothers would call me a kafir, and if i was born shia and became sunni all of you would call me a kafir, either way i would have to hate and be hated, to me this is all sects do is cause division, Honestly would Allah care if i was Salafi and tried my very hardest to model my self like the Prophet , yet the right sect was shia islam? If a sunni trys his hardest to follow the quran, yet he died a sunni, would you still call him a kafir?

  Being in no sect creates a middle way for me, while i may not be 100% supported by a person in a sect,but at least they dont hate me as much as they hate other sects. It allows me to build bridges between sunnis and shias. As long as i keep true to the hadiths, quran and sunnah, isnt this enough?

Is there anything in shia islam thats more?

According to the Imams the Sunnis are not Kafirs. The are Muslim but not momins, merely submitters not believers.

Quote

Assalam alykum, interesting, all of the replies! But  The thought of sects in islam makes me saddend,.. To me the fact that Allah (swt) gives us these imams and almost all of them are slain by the ummah seems so pointless and cruel. Almost  gives me a feeling that Allah has abandoned humanity. i can feel his precence when in prayer, but if he really loved the Ummah, wouldnt he be fair and give more influence to his righteous leaders?

The more more Allah loves someone the more he piles hardship on them

http://www.shiachat....-i-came-across/

[89jghur32]

iminnosect, on 20 August 2011 - 03:46 AM, said:

Assalam alykum, interesting, all of the replies! But  The thought of sects in islam makes me saddend,.. To me the fact that Allah (swt) gives us these imams and almost all of them are slain by the ummah seems so pointless and cruel. Almost  gives me a feeling that Allah has abandoned humanity. i can feel his precence when in prayer, but if he really loved the Ummah, wouldnt he be fair and give more influence to his righteous leaders?

  Also, lets say i become shia, all my sunni brothers would call me a kafir, and if i was born shia and became sunni all of you would call me a kafir, either way i would have to hate and be hated, to me this is all sects do is cause division, Honestly would Allah care if i was Salafi and tried my very hardest to model my self like the Prophet , yet the right sect was shia islam? If a sunni trys his hardest to follow the quran, yet he died a sunni, would you still call him a kafir?

  Being in no sect creates a middle way for me, while i may not be 100% supported by a person in a sect,but at least they dont hate me as much as they hate other sects. It allows me to build bridges between sunnis and shias. As long as i keep true to the hadiths, quran and sunnah, isnt this enough?

Is there anything in shia islam thats more?

Wa Alaykum As-Salaam

1. Actually, his righteous leaders have a tremendous amount of influence to this day.  Their teachings are preserved in the Shiite school.  Then you find bits and pieces of it in other schools of Islam.  Some of these leaders are loved by everyone for being pillars of piety and paragons of virtue.  So, while you might see their deaths, rather their slayings, as something to fault Allah (swt) for, clearly His wisdom shows in that we have all of this from the Imams .  

2. Sunnis (non-Shia in general) are not unbelievers (kafir).  I'm not exactly sure who told you this, but anyone who professes belief in Allah (swt) and the messengership of Muhammad (saw) is a Muslim.  However, Islam is lower than Iman.  So, while every mu'min is a Muslim, every Muslim is not a mu'min.  By the way, we also don't believe in absolutism.  Everyone is judged according to what knowledge they were given and how they used it.

3. No it isn't enough.  How do you reconcile the vastly different teachings and positions of the different schools of though?  Ahh, you pick and choose what seems right.  Well, Qur'an tells us that's the way of the Satan.  You're more welcome to do it though.

[Mustafa]

Khaled, on 19 August 2011 - 06:27 PM, said:

This does not make sense to me. It could be argued that it would be an injustice if we did not have the perfect religion, but an infallible leader? It does not follow.

Ali, you say that for God's justice to be valid there must be  a Masoom khalif at all times - where is ours now?

Thanks

Khaled, on 19 August 2011 - 06:27 PM, said:

This does not make sense to me. It could be argued that it would be an injustice if we did not have the perfect religion, but an infallible leader? It does not follow.

Ali, you say that for God's justice to be valid there must be  a Masoom khalif at all times - where is ours now?

[MuslimyMuslim]

al-Irshad, on 21 August 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

Wa Alaykum As-Salaam

1. Actually, his righteous leaders have a tremendous amount of influence to this day.  Their teachings are preserved in the Shiite school.  Then you find bits and pieces of it in other schools of Islam.  Some of these leaders are loved by everyone for being pillars of piety and paragons of virtue.  So, while you might see their deaths, rather their slayings, as something to fault Allah (swt) for, clearly His wisdom shows in that we have all of this from the Imams .  

2. Sunnis (non-Shia in general) are not unbelievers (kafir).  I'm not exactly sure who told you this, but anyone who professes belief in Allah (swt) and the messengership of Muhammad (saw) is a Muslim.  However, Islam is lower than Iman.  So, while every mu'min is a Muslim, every Muslim is not a mu'min.  By the way, we also don't believe in absolutism.  Everyone is judged according to what knowledge they were given and how they used it.

3. No it isn't enough.  How do you reconcile the vastly different teachings and positions of the different schools of though?  Ahh, you pick and choose what seems right.  Well, Qur'an tells us that's the way of the Satan.  You're more welcome to do it though.

  Assalam alykum, i see your point brother, im trying to join a sect, but at the momment doing so seems hard. Before i join any sect i need to increase my imaan, so i can be sure what im doing is right,. I wouldnt call my self a satanist.

[mutahmarriage]

The hadith:
This hadith has been issued in interpretation of verse 29 of Surah Zomar; Imam Baqir says: "The Jews divided into 71 sects after their prophet passed away, and only one of these sects will go to heaven while the rest will be sent to hell.  The Christians also divided into 72 sects after Prophet Isa, and only one of the sects will go to heaven.  As for the Muslim Ummah, it will divide into 73 sects in which 72 of them will go to hell.  There are 13 sects among the 73 which have love and affection towards us, the Ahlul-Bayt and accept our wilayah[viii][8] but only one will enter paradise. Therefore these twelve of these 13 and the other sixty sects will all go to Hell."[ix][9]
Conclusion: Both the chain of narrators and the contents of the hadith are correct and authentic and corroborated by other hadiths in this field. It must be noted that most of these ahadith have mentioned that the sect that will go to heaven are the followers of Imam Ali .[x][10]


[1][1] Mohammad Hosein Tabatabai, Al-Mizan (Farsi translation), vol. 3, pg. 588; Yaqub Jafari, Tafsir Kawthar, vol. 3, pg. 443.

[1][2] Muhammad Baqir Majlisi, Biharul-Anwar, vol. 28, pg. 4.

[1][3] With help from the Dirayatul-Nur software (the section on hadithic terms).

[1][4] Najashi, Rijal Najashi, pg. 353.

[1][5] Ibid, pg. 83.

[1][6] See: Rijal Najashi, pg. 556.

[1][7] See: Rijal Najashi, pg. 127 and Rijal Kashi, pg. 10.

[1][8] The hadith is probably referring to Shia sects other than the twelve imamer Shia sect.

[1][9] Muhammad ibn Yaqub Kuleini, Kafi, vol. 8, pg. 224.

[1][10] Biharul-Anwar, vol. 28, pg. 2 (chapter Iftiraqul Ummah badal Nabiyy ‘The division of the ummah after the prophet’).

[alimohamad40]

salaam
OP

you are basing your religion on how other humans will react and on your own interest???


who cares if the whole world called you a kafir ???   you have to do what you believe your lord wants from you

secondly people dont all do takfeer of each other except the extremist and self centered ego statical ones of each group.

We believe sunnies are Muslims and our fiqh allows us to intermarry

the most important thing is when you talking about god's justice.
doubting gods justice is the major problem that you face and is the most dangerous one of all

[sloth]

Salam friends, I have now made my mind up on Shia vs Sunni vs all the others.
I have decided to convert SHIA.
I have investigated the religion of Islam from BOTH sides and to my humane logic, Shia holds better ideas, such as Ali being the successor of Mohammad, makes sense since they were family.
Also, I read that its OK to combine the 5 prayers to 3 different times in Hadith Prophet Mohammad did this. And Sunni does not accept this.
Also, I do not want to point fingers at anyone, but Saudi-arabian government is working with the Kafirs and has USA army bases on their land. Iran (Shia capital) fights the Kafirs and has 100 000 notifications on them for standing up for Truth.
Deeds speak louder than words my friends.

I have now setup a prayer room, where I can pray in peace without other people or stuff distracting me, all i need now is a prayer mat, the floor is a little dirty.

And then when Ramadan ends I will convert InshAllah.

I want to thank YOU ALL for being so nice and helpful to me, and may Allah (swt) reward you who made this site and monitor it and guide people here!

PLease friends if you have any tips or advice, TELL ME =)
(Some english translations of some Hadith would be nice) webpages.

[sloth]

Hi, i cant edit my post for some reason so im sorry i have to flood the forum with 2 separate messages.
But I was talking with a muslim online and he said:

***: At least the bad Muslim acknowledges he is doing wrong and that God is one and He must be worshipped alone and that Islam is the only true religion.
***: And will try to improve and increase other deeds and seek God's forgiveness.
***: While the non Muslim doesn't even recognize it's wrong

This is a reply to what i said when he asked why havent i converted yet i dont know when im gonna die.
I replied with i rather be a non muslim than a bad muslim, and that was his reply.

And i have to admit, his reply got me thinking, I honestly dont know what will happen, i can go to sleep tonight and not wake up in the morning. its unlikely, but no one knows.
What are your thoughts on it, is he right?

Should I convert now? Even though i know i would be missing Ramadan (only 9days left) and possibly a few prayers until i have foudn a mat to pray on (warehouse floor is dirty)

[Fink]

Legio Invicta, on 18 August 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

Tell me, which leader is worthy of following in ALL aspects, a leader in which you can find absolutely no fault, or one in which you find plenty of flaws? Extending on that, isn't it an injustice from Allah if He does not give us an infallible leader to derive an example and a role model out of?

That is a rosey picture at best. Until you can differentiate between narrations from these 'infallibles', it matters little whether they were infallible or not. That aside though, this notion of infallibility is largely built on philosophical arguments and exaggeration. This exaggeration is necessary inorder to fill in the gaps. For example, its widely accepted amongst shia that only an Imam can bury and Imam. So what they do is plug in fairytale stories like the 4th Imam coming from prison to bury Imam Hussain as, or the 12th imam praying over the 11th Imam. And if you question these stories, you'll get hit with the ' it was a miracle!'

[WhiteSkies]

sloth, on 22 August 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

Hi, i cant edit my post for some reason so im sorry i have to flood the forum with 2 separate messages.
But I was talking with a muslim online and he said:

***: At least the bad Muslim acknowledges he is doing wrong and that God is one and He must be worshipped alone and that Islam is the only true religion.
***: And will try to improve and increase other deeds and seek God's forgiveness.
***: While the non Muslim doesn't even recognize it's wrong

This is a reply to what i said when he asked why havent i converted yet i dont know when im gonna die.
I replied with i rather be a non muslim than a bad muslim, and that was his reply.

And i have to admit, his reply got me thinking, I honestly dont know what will happen, i can go to sleep tonight and not wake up in the morning. its unlikely, but no one knows.
What are your thoughts on it, is he right?

Should I convert now? Even though i know i would be missing Ramadan (only 9days left) and possibly a few prayers until i have foudn a mat to pray on (warehouse floor is dirty)

First thing I'm no scholar, but intention is very important in Islam, and so God forbid you didn't wake up the next morning as you have intended on becoming a Muslim it should be okay.   However, if still in doubt check with an Ayatollah or your local mosque (their answer would be more definite).

Apologies, for tips and whatnot, I not very knowledgeable myself so I can't really help.

Mashallah on your to-be-conversion and I wish you all the best!

Wasaalam

[sloth]

WhiteSkies, on 23 August 2011 - 01:03 AM, said:

First thing I'm no scholar, but intention is very important in Islam, and so God forbid you didn't wake up the next morning as you have intended on becoming a Muslim it should be okay.   However, if still in doubt check with an Ayatollah or your local mosque (their answer would be more definite).

Apologies, for tips and whatnot, I not very knowledgeable myself so I can't really help.

Mashallah on your to-be-conversion and I wish you all the best!

Wasaalam

السلام عليكم

I am now converted =) I couldnt wait longer i talked with a muslim brother and he said i shouldnt delay my conversion cuz i dont know when i will die.

Allahu Akbar

“Whatever you have been given is only an enjoyment of this life and its adornment, but that which is with God (in the Hereafter) is better and will remain forever….” (Quran 28:60)

[AspiringToBeShia]

Fink, on 22 August 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

That is a rosey picture at best. Until you can differentiate between narrations from these 'infallibles', it matters little whether they were infallible or not. That aside though, this notion of infallibility is largely built on philosophical arguments and exaggeration. This exaggeration is necessary inorder to fill in the gaps. For example, its widely accepted amongst shia that only an Imam can bury and Imam. So what they do is plug in fairytale stories like the 4th Imam coming from prison to bury Imam Hussain as, or the 12th imam praying over the 11th Imam. And if you question these stories, you'll get hit with the ' it was a miracle!'

http://www.al-islam....hapter1b/2.html

Read this and the next part.

[islamicdaddy]

sloth, on 22 August 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:

I have now setup a prayer room, where I can pray in peace without other people or stuff distracting me, all i need now is a prayer mat, the floor is a little dirty.

Al hamdu lillah Brother, as for the prayer mat, clay, books, ... Is there anything I can help you with?
I know in some places these items are hard to find. I would be more than happy to send you some stuff to get you started.

If you'd like you can post your address / email in a private message to me. I'll send you some stuff as eid gift .

May Allah bless you!

ma'a salama,
Ihsaan

[Zahra1]

sloth, on 22 August 2011 - 08:29 AM, said:

PLease friends if you have any tips or advice, TELL ME =)

As I read in another post that you live in Finland, so why don't you try to visit shia mosque and islamic centers there,

there are so many of them there, take a look on this page, please:

http://www.aqaed.inf...tution/finland/

I hope that you find one in your area.