129 replies to this topic

[ßÑíã]

s.fatima, on 20 August 2011 - 12:52 PM, said:

No! He has no right whatsoever to judge ANYBODY! If she chooses the wrong path then let Allah punish, do not attempt to do HIS job, for that is a sin in itself! You people are too quick in jumping to conclusions. It takes one "no" to stir up a lot of false accusations. Coming on here and writing wrongly about a girl, who according to you opposed Mutah, will not prove your superiority! In fact, portraying such a mentality ONLY points out your own flaws. She put the hijab on she took the hijab off yada yada yada...really?! Well, I could care less!!! Why don't you start worrying about your own actions for a change? Just because you are (so-called) knowledgeable about Mutah does not mean you understand the whole religion. Quite frankly, with such a mindset the only title you are probably eligible to earn is "Mutah King." Others should not be paying the price for your lack of self-respect.

Surah 2 Verse 159: "These it is whom Allah will reject, and whom all who can judge will reject". That said verse along with the one that brother Ali mentioned all shut down your stance because you only cause Bid'ah by making your supposed "sin of judging others" authentic in Islam. When someone does judge according to justice, as long as his intentions are pure then there's nothing wrong with that. As i said previously, any female who prefers fornication over Mut'ah, deserves to be judged negatively, and her arguments against that are rediculous as well as yours. I studied Mut'ah but i did not say "i understand the whole religion", if i did, i wouldn't need SC for my own benefit, so stop accusing people of having such a mind-set. I didn't mean to attract un-open minded females who are "feminist" as you say and address people with lack of respect, i just wanted a justified state of mind as to why this occurs, and currently your standing with those who degrade Mut'ah. This nickname Mut'ah king you've stated just shows your lack of maturity and understanding from a brother living in the west, but in a way i take it as a compliment, because you addressed me with part of the sunnah of our holy messenger .

['pride is for allah']

Imam Ali as said 'if the second caliph had not stopped the legality of muta only the wretched would have performed zina upto the day of qiyamat.'

The statement proves that muta wont be accepted in the society due to the actions of second caliph.

So children stop arguing about things you dont know. No father will allow his daughter to do muta. That itself is a major obstacle and makes muta void.
Dont misuse religion. And stop fooling around.

[ßÑíã]

'pride is for Allah, on 20 August 2011 - 04:55 PM, said:

Imam Ali as said 'if the second caliph had not stopped the legality of muta only the wretched would have performed zina upto the day of qiyamat.'

The statement proves that muta wont be accepted in the society due to the actions of second caliph.

So children stop arguing about things you dont know. No father will allow his daughter to do muta. That itself is a major obstacle and makes muta void.
Dont misuse religion. And stop fooling around.

Your statement in no way proves Mut'ah to be void, it only indicates that not many people will accept it. The fact that very few fathers would actually allow their daughters to contract it, does not mean it is not halal, its a personal issue. It's an established fact that coming towards the end of days haram will seem good and halal will seem bad, Mut'ah is in the quran, along with taqiyah, along with Allah s.w.t telling us to wipe our feet in wudhu, but despite this, some people still have the nerve to say they are all haram and void. Let the Qur'an educate you and I;

Surah 4 Verse 24: "Then give those of these women who you have contracted temporary marriage with the agreed dower".

In the arabic translation of this verse, the word "istamta’atom" is used, one group says that the word “istamta’atum’ means engaged in mutah whilst the other group says it means something else. Realistically, If you look at the hadith in which it is “said” that Rasool Allah forbade mutah, the original arabic text for that hadith identifies the word as “istamta’atum”, which matches the word that is used in surah 4 verse 24, thus proving that in their argument against it, they contradict only themseves. So i suggest that you should not call void what you do not understand, and don't claim that we are "arguing about things which we do not know" because in reality, you only contradict and deceive your own soul.

Edited by ßÑíã, 20 August 2011 - 07:05 PM.

[HellHound]

The war is on...

When will people get this into their heads that Mutah is Halal but NOT obligatory? Why then is there such a severe criticism for this practice when it's optional on the believers to do it? Sigh the exceedingly high amount of the quality on this forum that we call "feminism" is astonishing...

[Anti-Logic]

Hi. It seems the discussion got heated over the day. I appreciate all the views and respect them. Everyone of us has a valid point which has been made after contemplating on the subject through time, experience and knowledge.
@S.Fatima: Calm down! we all respect and value each other's existence and thoughts.
@ pride is for Allah: The purpose of this discussion is for the same reason: to inquire about those geographies / societies / communities where it is practiced. And from the posts and discussion over the week, the common theme arising is that it is not openly followed - it still remains a taboo and a hush hush thing in various parts of the shia world. In the earlier posts we have also compared it with polygamy - which is practiced quite commonly, specifically in arabs. Whereas Mutah isnt.
@Legio: Amongst the most common remarks by non-shias that i have heard / gotten is Mutah - People think it is widely practiced and a means for getting sex primarily. Hence this discussion - Thanks for reminding that its not obligatory. People are really getting involved in the discussion and taking it very seriously
@AliMohamed40: Bro, thanks for being so open and honest with your views and sharing the historical accounts. I guess its just in the name: Some phrases / rulings have been misrepresented, fabricated and twisted so much by society over time that the truth has been buried down. Our minds get perplexed and hence the discussion to clear things out. But yes, the society cannot change over time and so can't the general impressions.

@ everyone! : Take it easy gather as much knowledge as possible and let share with a softer pen.

Edited by Anti-Logic, 20 August 2011 - 08:38 PM.

[alimohamad40]

Salaam

Legio Invicta, on 20 August 2011 - 07:01 PM, said:

The war is on...

When will people get this into their heads that Mutah is Halal but NOT obligatory? Why then is there such a severe criticism for this practice when it's optional on the believers to do it? Sigh the exceedingly high amount of the quality on this forum that we call "feminism" is astonishing...

Yes its not obligatory for one do do it in general but only mustahab " Recommended in general" but in specific cases it could be:
1)highly msutahab
2) obligatory or
3) neutral (mubah ) or
4) even Haraam
depending on the situation and the secondary rules that apply due to secondary topics associated with it...
for example if one person has a STD and he consummates the mut3a  marriages without informing the contracting party then that constitutes a haraam action
or if some one deceives and lies
some of these cases invalidate the marriage  but some others dont but all of them give the right to the hakim to finish the period and maybe even compensate  if the party that has been transgressed upon requires to .

In a society where muta is highly a taboo and that causes the disablement of the law and the opening of the haraam doors as an alternative to it like in our societies today then it becomes obligatory for people to practice it to break the taboo because it would be Wajib kefie.

Examples of wajib kefie:
washing the dead
eid prayer
Ijtihad and
enjoining good and forbidding evil is wajib kefie ( reference: minhaj alsaleheen for al khooie)

Wajib kefie means "sufficiency obligation" that if others don't do it it becomes obligatory on you to do it on order to suffice. (with the case of forbidding the evil it is so that the forbidding of evil has been sufficiently done)
(with the case of ijtihad is so that at least some is doing ijtihad and suffices)
(with the washing the dead is that some one must suffice and wash)



The prophet gave us the instruction of nahi an almunkar:

"whoever of you saw a negative then let him change it with his hand and if he can not then with his mouth and if he can not then with his heart and thats the lowest of faith"
so the ideal way of nahi an almunkar is the actual practice by your own hand
second ideal way is by talking and praising it on shiachat and in mosques and amongst people
third option is if you are too weak and your whipped and have gun at your head that if you say mut3a is good you'll get killed or face persecution (maybe like in saudi) then you can support it in your heart and that's the lowest of faith.

This is for wajib kefie but in other cases in order to avoid sin it becomes obligatory too



So yes in general its not obligatory on the person to practice it but do you know whats obligatory???  its obligatory on third parties to accept it because its hallal and its a sin for people to reject when a third party is involved in it like call them names and degrade them for it.

so even your first wife is a third party and she has no right to object a halal transaction taking place between two third parties even if it was not an obligatory situation.

same with the parents.
but if its an obligatory situation then its very logical that they are prohibiting whats obligatory and that's  a great crime.

Edited by alimohamad40, 20 August 2011 - 09:14 PM.

[Anti-Logic]

By the way - are there any other religions in the world or clans / societies that have the concept of Mutah like in Shiaism?

[PrinceofIraq]

its not common in my area

[Waiting for HIM]

Salam, may be off topic, I've found Arabs to be the most sexually liberal people in the globe (in halal way) because majority of Arabs are Muslims. Sometimes I wished other societies would learn at least that part from our Arab brothers and sisters.

Funny how Arabs are considered the most backward among all Muslims yet how open minded they are when it comes to marriage and sex and all around it. I still remember my iraqi friends living their lives in peace enjoying all the halal ways Allah allowed us while the rest used to suffer in our cultural ignorance.

[Anti-Logic]

@Shi3at Ali and @Waiting for HIM:

Thanks for sharing your valuable views and comments.

Indeed it seems that Arabs are quite liberal when it comes to sex (in halal way) and thats where it seems polygamy and Mutah is comparitively practiced more.

What about Iran and Iranians - how common is Mutah or Polygamy amongst Persians. Any views?

['pride is for allah']

Shi3at Ali, on 21 August 2011 - 09:41 AM, said:

And most of these girls r doing mutah secretively bc if dad and Paternal grandfather say no, she is allowed by syed sistanis rule to go ahead with mutah without their permission (mind u these r the same fathers and grandfathers who do taqleed of sistani) !!!

Dont lie sister in the name of Sistani

[slave.ofAllah]

Waiting for HIM, on 17 August 2011 - 04:11 AM, said:

1. In my area men do it with Christian women to save themselves from masturbation, fornication, and other sexual perversions of western society.

2. Sisters meanwhile suffer in their bigotry, self righteousness, and lack of will to their submission to the commands of Allah and sit there and getting old in their lonely lives. No body knows what they do at home to fulfill their sexual or companionship needs.

3. Then there are some young couples who are doing it for six months or so to know each other before marrying permanently.

All in all, #1 and #3 are living in peace and bliss knowing they are living in accordance with the commands of Allah. #2 are sitting there criticizing biting their nails in despair and deprivation.

As far as side debate on conditions, there are not many conditions as long as you know what the conditions are for permanent nikah. There is no difference, zilch, nothing, zero, nada between the two except that one is with no time stipulation, other has time limit to it when the contract expires.

Well if this is surely the case, i think those #2 have to make themselves know to the poor fellas out there who have yet been able to save half their faith, and are keen on doing so.

[Anti-Logic]

So university going fellas do practice it in the West in some cases. When the testosterone levels are really high!

And the theme emerging is that it is practiced when there is already a relationship in place. I havent yet found any evidence of it being abused as widely labeled,

[MWO]

then you need to go to sydney haha =P

[Anti-Logic]

haha.. yea..we can charter a plane - lets say it flies from Mid East, picks me up on the way and the whole plane full of shia men reaches sydney

Edited by Anti-Logic, 25 August 2011 - 07:50 AM.

[Moslem]

@Anti Logic, nice idea

[satyaban]

La fata illa Ali, on 16 August 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

ok Aunty, enjoy ur stay on SC. U can stuff the real issues in the bag and go do pooja at the mandir and pretend ur daughter priyanka is an angel but really u know she is fooling around with the neighbours son, Kumar.


Go live in ur perfect palace.


Undha fhek or tamasha dhek

Wassalam Auntie jee.

Very rude and ignorant.

[YariAzQuran]

Shi3at Ali, on 21 August 2011 - 09:41 AM, said:

A3othubillah its so sad how the elders here frown upon mutah but they allow their sons and daughters to get engaged ... Which essentially means nothing bc no islamic contract is used... And they allow these engaged couples to go out together alone but when u mention mutah, they think u want to sin.

Right on the money.

[abumuslim]

In order to have Mutaa practiced in any society, the whole structure of the society has to be changed.  The way they grow up, the way they study, the way they marry, the way they think  and the most difficult part is that people start thinking in one way.  in short everything has to be changed.  Hence it is not easy for a society to accept anything it has not been practicing.

[alimohamad40]

abumuslim, on 10 November 2011 - 05:55 AM, said:

In order to have Mutaa practiced in any society, the whole structure of the society has to be changed.  The way they grow up, the way they study, the way they marry, the way they think  and the most difficult part is that people start thinking in one way.  in short everything has to be changed.  Hence it is not easy for a society to accept anything it has not been practicing.

most societies are currently doing haraam engagements and fornication relationships before marriage so whats the big deal if instead of that they legitimized it by reciting the 3 words contract?

Its like kosher and hallal slaughter,,,  people already kill the lamb any way so whats so hard about following  few extra procedures to legitimize it according to the order of your lord ?

[kadhim]

abumuslim, on 10 November 2011 - 05:55 AM, said:

In order to have Mutaa practiced in any society, the whole structure of the society has to be changed. The way they grow up, the way they study, the way they marry, the way they think and the most difficult part is that people start thinking in one way. in short everything has to be changed. Hence it is not easy for a society to accept anything it has not been practicing.

No, this is a total exaggeration. This is a convenient lazy people use to help ensure nothing ever changes.

[satyaban]

dan_rafi, on 17 August 2011 - 12:13 AM, said:

Mutah is still consider a taboo, but haram dating is pretty common where i am at.

Mutah is never misused unless one is forced into it against his or her will. So long as both sides agree, and they know what they are getting into.. it is halal 100%.

Where?

s.fatima, on 17 August 2011 - 02:45 AM, said:

MWO: I think you've explained this quite well. All these factors play a role in one's decision making process. Whether we accept it or not, our environment has a influence on most of the choices we make. For example, a villager would probably not be comfortable with the idea. On the contrary, a man whose been brought up in a city might believe it's the most convenient alternative. So when it comes down to it, Mutah may be common in certain areas while untimely in others.

Monad: Thanks for posting the link. It's highly important for both parties to be fully aware of what they are getting into. Unfortunately, a lot of shias have yet to discover the simple laws of a Marriage let alone Mutah (which still is foreign to some).

I villager may be disinclined to enter into mutah because everyone knows each other’s business while marrying a child would be attractive to him because there are fewer females. In cities the reverse would apply. There is greater anonymity for the urban dweller and many more females available of reasonable age to eliminate the need for a child bride.

[Abu Hadi]

alimohamad40, on 10 November 2011 - 06:14 AM, said:

most societies are currently doing haraam engagements and fornication relationships before marriage so whats the big deal if instead of that they legitimized it by reciting the 3 words contract?

Its like kosher and hallal slaughter,,,  people already kill the lamb any way so whats so hard about following  few extra procedures to legitimize it according to the order of your lord ?

Salams br.

I honestly don't know what they will say when they meet Allah(swa) and he asks them why they disobeyed Him(swa) when He(swa) made obeying him so easy. The only thing I can think is that they are more concerned about what there family or community thinks than what Allah(swa) thinks about their actions. I think you have done your wajib kefieah.

[AusRevert]

Mutah has a HUGE stigma attached to it in Australia, and isn't widely practiced at all. I know of a few brothers through whispers who would prefer to "date" a Christian girl for their needs rather than contract a Mutah, and make something that is essentially haram, hallal with just a few words.  But unfortunately, the stigma and shame is what turns the men off, from what I can see.

[satyaban]

Abu Hadi, on 10 November 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

Salams br.

I honestly don't know what they will say when they meet Allah(swa) and he asks them why they disobeyed Him(swa) when He(swa) made obeying him so easy. The only thing I can think is that they are more concerned about what there family or community thinks than what Allah(swa) thinks about their actions. I think you have done your wajib kefieah.

You are making the mistake of applying your belief system to people who hold a belief system a bit different than yours.

Anti-Logic, on 21 August 2011 - 07:28 AM, said:

By the way - are there any other religions in the world or clans / societies that have the concept of Mutah like in Shiaism?

  The Inuits did but they may have been tainted by Christianity.