472 replies to this topic

[diracdeltafunc]

Is this walid guy a frequent shiachatter? Coz hez chosen quite an awkward name for a shia lol!

Edited by diracdeltafunc, 15 August 2011 - 04:33 PM.

[ImamAliLover]

diracdeltafunc, on 15 August 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

Is this walid guy a frequent shiachatter? Coz hez chosen quite an awkward name for a shia lol!

He used to be, but he got banned a few times.  And that's his name; he used to be Sunni and then became Shia.

Edited by ImamAliLover, 15 August 2011 - 05:41 PM.

[Muntaqim Force]

ImamAliLover, on 15 August 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

Fascinating debate so far.  It's interesting the angle that Walid took to defend the veracity of Ibrahim al-Qummi.  Let's see where this goes

Lets see where this goes. Brother the islamicforum is run by Haq Chaar Yaar organization. The people who run this organization, how they feel towards shia islam can be seen if you type in google " shia killings of parachinar".
You think people whose stanch towards shia islam is as in that video will take what Walid will say!!!! This debate will end up no where and they shias will say "wah wah walid' and the yazidis will say ' wah wah Farid' .

Knowledge of Rijal is not bad but it is not always proper and have many flaws because here were focus on humanly characters and their narrations. Allah s.w.t has given us intellect to use, now if i read 1% of muslims who are indeed followers of Yazid try to save his position and rest 99% have clear narrations that he was tyrant, then i wont waste my time over rijal sciences. Similarly if i read  hadith that Prophet s.a.w tried to commit suicide or if Umar was better than Prophet s.a.w, i wont waste my time again over rijal sciences.

When we analyse any statement, the first think to look is what is being said and not who is saying it. Means the hadith mutn is most important to understand. Rijal is the last resort and the amount of narrations shias take and refute does not need rijal sciences at all.


Some people above want to learn something out of this debate. For them my answer is , religion is not learnt from discussions going on in the toilet (islamicforum) in fact, the knowledge seekers bury themselves in books for most of their life and then reach somewhere. Another hint why islam cannot be run by these internet forum's of such people, there is not one thread but many in which the id is created by some wahabi as a shia and then they debate among themselves and in the hand the shia Id (wahabi undercover) accepts that he was wrong. This is all fraud.


jazakAllah

[Sheraz]

Haha I was thinking the same. Must be one sad yazidi who makes a new accout n debates n looses. Shame it can't b proven nonetheless it would b amusing.  

As for the debate it's pointless. Cause when it comes to Abu huraira farid is gonna get ripped.

Cause as walid said "Abu huraira was to keen to narrate Hadith when he himself couldn't have been present!"

[Muntaqim Force]

Salaam

After previously explaining the faith of the on going Debate, i request the admins of this room to remove this thread too. Following are the number of reasons for this thread removal.

1- Topic itself is not debatable but rather it is about the discussion between two people at another forum.

2- Regarding invitation of this debate, another thread was already there.

3- Walid is not appointed as a debater by some international shia authority. So this debate is between two guys and this has no credibility for discussion.

4- Islamicforum people (Wahabis)do not consider shias as muslims, order others to kill shias and have blessings of paradise. Therefore before talking about science of narrators, Walid should prove to them if he is muslim. In such case, publicity of Islamicforum's propaganda should not be welcomed over this forum under the disguise of this thread.

5- Debates are done among public, scholars not matter if they belong to different sects or religion BUT debates are never done with payroll agents. Islamicforum is run by outlaw terrorist organization of Sipah e Sahaba, a wahabi cult, proven Bristish agents on mission to destroy Islam. Therefore discussing Islam with anti Islamic agents was the first wrong step of Walid. We should not welcome this over shia forum.

Therefore, this wahabi advertising propaganda thread should be removed.
Also, look at the people who are interested in this thread so far. You will have a clear picture of it too.

NOTE: Debates and discussions can be done with wahabis too but not with wahabi AGENTS.

JazakAllah

[Saved]

saima.bukhari, on 15 August 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

I think the debate is good and through it one can analyze the fact through a basic level. The shia sunni differences are mainly grounded in the documented narrations. The same narrations are quoted in the exegesis of Quran as well by each side to prove their claim. If any of two participants proved their point , it would show gross errors and loopholes  in the narration system of the school of the opposite. The debate is of a very scholarly level and its good that they picked on the core narrators. I can not research the Hadith sciences due to my lack of knowledge of Arabic and the basics of Hadith sciences so i will make my mind in the light of the result of this debate about the Hadiths of the two schools.

Saima, you are a Sunnee. So, what mind are you making up again? In any case, have you ever asked yourself if this rijaal thing can be applied to the Qur'aan too? Izan, could you please provide a SINGLE Saheeh or Hasan chain for the Qur'aan as per Sunnee rijaal? Actually, the Qur'aan has only one extremely weak chain as per Sunnee rijaal! Sunnee scholars instead claim tawaatur for it, without really bringing the rijaal-tested chains that form together to make it mutawaatir. If rijaal is so unimportant when it comes to the Qur'aan, why do we make so much noise?

Secondly, Sunnees grade all the Sahaabah as "trustworthy" when there are in reality terrible liars among them! I exposed two of them in this article http://www.wilayat.n...Companionship). They are Waleed ibn 'Uqbah and Aboo Hurayrah. I have provided undeniable instances of them both LYING! And I wrote this one too to expose another LIAR among the senior Sahaabah http://www.wilayat.n...Sahaba-General. It is Allaah Himself who has called him a LIAR. So, as you can see, the ROOT of the Sunnee rijaal system is very faulty. How can anything be sensible about it?

Finally, who gave people like Yahya ibn Mo'een, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, al-Bukhaaree, and others the authority to judge the reliability of others? NONE! Rijaal as a whole revolves around the contradictory "opinions" of some self-imposed "judges"! May Allaah save us from its evil.

[MysticKnight]

It's all conjecture and web of doubts. You don't know whom is truthful and liar. Humans can't see inside hearts of people. That's just reality.

Say, Shias are right, what makes Sunni Rijaal analysis wrong? The simple fact of their creed. If they can be wrong, why can't Shia Rijaal be just as wrong.

If Sunnis are right, what makes Shia Rijaal analysis wrong? It's simply because they believed in Imams and rejected Sahabas? That makes them not able to tell truthful from liar, but having the right creed makes you know truthful from liar.

This Rijaal thing is a joke. It's not a science, it's conjecture. You don't know whom is truthful and liar, you may know someone to be a liar if you catch them lying (which most of the time, it has nothing to do with that), but you certainly won't know if they are truthful, because even if you never catch them lying, they may lie.

[Saved]

MysticKnight, on 16 August 2011 - 03:30 AM, said:

It's all conjecture and web of doubts. You don't know whom is truthful and liar. Humans can't see inside hearts of people. That's just reality.

Say, Shias are right, what makes Sunni Rijaal analysis wrong? The simple fact of their creed. If they can be wrong, why can't Shia Rijaal be just as wrong.

If Sunnis are right, what makes Shia Rijaal analysis wrong? It's simply because they believed in Imams and rejected Sahabas? That makes them not able to tell truthful from liar, but having the right creed makes you know truthful from liar.

This Rijaal thing is a joke. It's not a science, it's conjecture. You don't know whom is truthful and liar, you may know someone to be a liar if you catch them lying (which most of the time, it has nothing to do with that), but you certainly won't know if they are truthful, because even if you never catch them lying, they may lie.

So true, brother.

Here is a Sunnee article that breaks the myth of the authenticity of Saheeh Al-Bukhaaree and Saheeh Muslim http://www.islamiedu...of-sunnah.html. Many of their narrators are weak! Even Imaam al-Bukhaaree and Imaam Muslim themselves are weak!!

And here is another Sunnee research exposing the contradictions in the two Saheehs. http://www.scribd.co...im-Refuting-the

[twoblade]

Zareen, on 15 August 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

That is only possible when both sides of the fence (Shia and Sunni) narrated about the same event (through proper chain of narrators).

Some examples are
The event of Ghadeer Khum
The event of Mubahila
The event of the cloak
The Jamal war.
Fatima refused to speak to Abu Bakr and Umar
Fatima buried in the night

Otherwise, JimJam said it best. It is a stalemate.

Even assuming those are correct there are numerous other examples that work oppositely, but with the trump card of taqiyah, those are a non-issue in Shi'ism, correct?

[Muntaqim Force]

Regarding flaws of Bukhari , Mir Murad Ali's Bukhari is very good work too.

This topic and the selection of this debate and people behind and their reality i found out. I am waiting for some admins to prove those images and then expose these agents.

JazakAllah

[twoblade]

ImamAliLover, on 15 August 2011 - 05:41 PM, said:

He used to be, but he got banned a few times.  And that's his name; he used to be Sunni and then became Shia.

No, he was Sunni for a few weeks only. He started with the Shi'ism common here, realized the importance of rijal, started to notice discrepancies between Shi'ite scholarly opinions and Shi'ite traditions, accepted Sunni Islam for a while and than went back to Shi'ism with a different perspective on it and is in his own little category now.

Saved, on 16 August 2011 - 03:16 AM, said:

Saima, you are a Sunnee. So, what mind are you making up again? In any case, have you ever asked yourself if this rijaal thing can be applied to the Qur'aan too? Izan, could you please provide a SINGLE Saheeh or Hasan chain for the Qur'aan as per Sunnee rijaal? Actually, the Qur'aan has only one extremely weak chain as per Sunnee rijaal! Sunnee scholars instead claim tawaatur for it, without really bringing the rijaal-tested chains that form together to make it mutawaatir. If rijaal is so unimportant when it comes to the Qur'aan, why do we make so much noise?

Rofl. Looks like you don't understand the basics of 'ilm al rijaal or tawattur. Why don't you take that argument to an actual Sunni forum where there are actual scholars who've studied Qur'an and not just very shallow polemics like yourself (i.e. ahlul hadith forum for example, even the English side of it is decent) than make baseless claims.

[Gypsy]

twoblade, on 16 August 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

Even assuming those are correct there are numerous other examples that work oppositely, but with the trump card of taqiyah, those are a non-issue in Shi'ism, correct?

If you understand everything through the light of Sunni hypocrisy then probably you would think that.

[Saimaaa]

@ Saved, There are a few religious discourses for which one may not need any chains or what people call Tawathur. like , the existence of God is a type of intuition to a person. One can feel that in ones one self. Same is the case of Quran. The tone and wording of Quran is so divine and pure that it can be rationally felt that its from a divine source. So for such things , i dont think that one really needs chains etc.
However , Imamat can not be felt. The divine attributes of the Imams can not be rationally explained. Same goes for the 4 caliphs are their trustworthiness according to sunnis , that can not be felt as an intuition. There are various other historical issues between the two sects which have to be proved "rationo-historically ". I think that one has two options. Either one rejects the whole historic record along with the narrations/hadiths and become Quranist or the second one is to deeply analyze the Hadith rules according to both sunnis and shias and get into Rijjal sciences. Rijjal sciences in the only rational explanation of historic record and even if its difficult to classify things into black and white through rijjal, its sufficient to differentiate between truth and falsehood.  
I would call myself a sunni now but i know that i can not dive deep into rijjal sciences to have some rational explanation for my beliefs which come through Hadiths.Now i as a suuni can nit say that all shia hadiths are forgery , nor when i was a shia i could say that all sunni hadiths are forgery. So , i have decided to analyze this debate fully and make up my mind in the light of it.

[Muntaqim Force]

saima.bukhari, on 16 August 2011 - 08:12 AM, said:

There are a few religious discourses for which one may not need any chains or what people call Tawathur.

When similar logic was present to this undercover ID over the event of Ghadir, Abu Bakr making Fatima s.a angry, they showed disagreement. What happend now huh !!!!! Wahabi constipated tricks??

Quote

The tone and wording of Quran is so divine and pure that it can be rationally felt that its from a divine source. So for such things , i dont think that one really needs chains etc.
However , Imamat can not be felt.

Abu Jahal died pagan even after listening to Quran, Christians and Jews have sooo much devilish research over quran that people like you might leave Islam after reading them, why all this because for them Divinity can not be felt. Similarly like those pagans, christians and jews, you can not feel the Imamat, but we do feel.

Quote

The divine attributes of the Imams can not be rationally explained.

How many attributes did you read without keeping hate for Imams!!!!? You follow those people who killed them even after witnessing their signs because of their power greed, so do not wonder if the attributes of the Imams can not be rationally explained to you. For us they are rationally explained.

Quote

There are various other historical issues between the two sects which have to be proved "rationo-historically

Stop playing with words here 2 SECTS, sunnis and shias have no issues with Yazid lanatullah aleh but your previous comments proved that you are one of the wahabi creed. Why you are speaking from sunnah side !!!

Your whole post was a lie and illogical.

Quote

I would call myself a sunni now but i know that i can not dive deep into rijjal sciences to have some rational explanation for my beliefs which come through Hadiths.Now i as a suuni can nit say that all shia hadiths are forgery , nor when i was a shia i could say that all sunni hadiths are forgery. So , i have decided to analyze this debate fully and make up my mind in the light of it.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool , i just chocked over this one. Haha omg , omg . What do you think, we are selling humos here!!! U are not sunni (Yazid lover) and you were never a shia. You were given 9 answers regarding rijal and its use and still you stick to it.

Admins i request to take some action against this ID for spreading falsehood.

Ppl just search under general discussion, Nader Zaveri. You will come across one thread created by this saima ID. Thread's name is towards Nader Zaveri to reply her; have a look at the image:




Nader Zaveri is also found to speak ill regarding many shia believes. Even if you look at his signature Reviving Al-Islam, the opening argument is regarding  Imam a.j mother and he claims himself shia. This is how they are doing this propaganda. I have more proofs but only if admins allow me to represent.

[Muntaqim Force]

I asked one expert to have a look on Saima Bukhari's text and he expressed that this is not a female way of writing or responding. The female ID was made to have respect and sympathy. Lets see some more images of this cycle in  which one act as a shia and others as questioners.



They think we are similar to those sunni brothers who have very limited knowledge of their religion and same tactics which these wahabi are using to confuse them will work against shia muslims too. Lol @ their thinking. Some more evidences to come.

[twoblade]

Quote

Nader Zaveri is also found to speak ill regarding many shia believes. Even if you look at his signature Reviving Al-Islam, the opening argument is regarding Imam a.j mother and he claims himself shia. This is how they are doing this propaganda. I have more proofs but only if admins allow me to represent.

So is this guy on SSP payroll too?

[Muntaqim Force]

twoblade, on 16 August 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

So is this guy on SSP payroll too?

Just hold on n wait, all of sudden you became very active on this thread !!!

[Muntaqim Force]

Some about Mr debater



Farid's post have a look



I am not saying that Nadir Zaveri is on pay roll but critics based on knowledge is not a sin

more to come





Which shia speaks 80% against shias on his posts and threads? Which shia open his blog with such note!!!!? Being shia does it matter who her mother was???? Who is into proving Ahle Bait's are not as they are!!!!! definitely not a shia



need more?

A word to shia muslim brothers, someone asked our Imam that how two find out about undercover enemies of Ahle bait a.s. Imam replied you will see them doubting over commands, doubting over positions, speaking ill of our followers, speaking ill of our household, showing dissatisfaction to our teachings.

A word to wahabis SSP agents: This is not some monkey show. Since 1400 yrs you are killing us but you could not finish Hussainiyat Zindabad Yazdiat Murdabad and you wont be able to finish it inshAllah.

A message from shias of parachinar to everyone, even if there is last person left alive among us and you surround us from everywhere, that last man will also come out holding Abbas 's flag and saying YA HUSSAIN YA HUSSAIN YA HUSSAIN.

JazakAllah

[twoblade]

Quote

Being shia does it matter who her mother was????

Weren't you the one stressing the importance of history? Anyways, you've completely exposed Nader Zavari - he must be an undercover Wahabi agent...

[Muntaqim Force]

twoblade, on 16 August 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

Weren't you the one stressing the importance of history? Anyways, you've completely exposed Nader Zavari - he must be an undercover Wahabi agent...

Not directed to wahabi but to shias and they understand what i meant by this. Yallah move away from here.

Quote

Being shia does it matter who her mother was????

I am sure my shia brothers understood what i meant but for those who are here to gain knowledge and not for fitna:

If as a shia suppose i am told that her mother was Queen or Princess or Nobel or Anything, will it come to my mind to find out who see was!!!? Because shia's follow their Imam, waiting for their Imam a.j and not for her mother!!!! Only a wahabi will try to dig or present fabrications or try to prove something true weak or fabricated,

​We shias have records in the archives of Berlin library regarding the history of Nargis khatoon s.a. She was daughter of Byzantine lord and a decedent of  Simon Peter (one of the 12 disciple of Jesus p.b.u.h)

I exposed SAIMA BUKHARI and about Nadir Zaveri i just opened a door for others to think and do some research.

[Ali_Hussain]

Muntaqim Force, on 16 August 2011 - 03:13 PM, said:

Not directed to wahabi but to shias and they understand what i meant by this. Yallah move away from here.



I am sure my shia brothers understood what i meant but for those who are here to gain knowledge and not for fitna:

If as a shia suppose i am told that her mother was Queen or Princess or Nobel or Anything, will it come to my mind to find out who see was!!!? Because shia's follow their Imam, waiting for their Imam a.j and not for her mother!!!! Only a wahabi will try to dig or present fabrications or try to prove something true weak or fabricated,

​We shias have records in the archives of Berlin library regarding the history of Nargis khatoon s.a. She was daughter of Byzantine lord and a decedent of  Simon Peter (one of the 12 disciple of Jesus p.b.u.h)

I exposed SAIMA BUKHARI and about Nadir Zaveri i just opened a door for others to think and do some research.

Waylun likulli humazatin lumaza


you don't have a clue what you are talking about, stop embarrassing yourself and have some fear of Allah

[Muntaqim Force]

Shah hussain brother , i have doubt regarding you as well. Saw your id very active against shia brothers and also ur name appears under wahabi posts too much!!!!

i expressed my doubt not like you called a muslim a slanderer

All my critics above are with some proofs not out of blue

And by Allah in whose hand my life is, when i completed this exposing episode, i was telling myself the 1st to respond will also be one of the wahabi cycle group and your name was coming up in my mind over n over. If i lie Allah give me death ryt now. And see Allah showed me the truth. Indeed you the first one to response and not just response but using Quranic verse , labeling me a slanderer.

You did not even notice that this is not some debatable thread but a thread opened for that munazra which shiachat is not organizing nor sending any1 to it.

Plus i did my critics but u made me a slanderer.

Allah shows the truth.

[Ali_Hussain]

you're taking this key-board warrior thing a little too far,

i am speechless, uterly speechless, you are either mad, or on some kind of medication.....there is nothing i can say

[Muntaqim Force]

ShahHussain, on 16 August 2011 - 06:32 PM, said:

you're taking this key-board warrior thing a little too far,

i am speechless, uterly speechless, you are either mad, or on some kind of medication.....there is nothing i can say

Yes I am mad in the love of Muhammad s.a.w o Ale Muhammad p.b.u.t. and yes i am on mediction of Walayt e Ali bin Abi Talib a.s.

JazakAllah

[Nader Zaveri]

Muntaqim Force, on 16 August 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:

Which shia speaks 80% against shias on his posts and threads? Which shia open his blog with such note!!!!? Being shia does it matter who her mother was???? Who is into proving Ahle Bait's are not as they are!!!!! definitely not a shia

I think you are having a little bit too much fun with this whole screen shot business. The reason why my blog "opens" with that post is because that is the last post that I've made on my blog (over 150+ posts). Since RamaDaan started, I haven't gotten around to making new posts and putting together my research.