20 replies to this topic

[Yasoob Al Deen]

Salamun alaykum.

It seems that many Imamis (i.e. Shia) are breaking their fast with a date, then praying Salat al-Maghrib and Salat al-Ishaa, then eating a full meal. This is not mustahhab. It is mustahhab to pray Salat, then break your fast.

Abbas Qummi says in his Mafaateeh al-Jinaan:
"First, to open one's fast and it is mustahhab to do so after the ishaa prayer, unless one is feeling weak, or when others are waiting for one to join".

Sistani says:
1759. It is Mustahab that a person breaks his fast after offering Maghrib and Isha prayers. However, if he feels terribly inclined to eat, so much that he cannot concentrate on the prayers, or if someone is waiting for him, it is better that he should break his fast first and offer the prayers later. However, as far as possible, he should try to offer the prayers during the prime time (Fadheelat).

It seems they based this on the following ahadeeth:

al-Kafi, volume 4, page 101, hadeeth 3:
[3] عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادٍ عَنِ الْحَلَبِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ سُئِلَ عَنِ الْإِفْطَارِ قَبْلَ الصَّلَاةِ أَوْ بَعْدَهَا قَالَ إِنْ كَانَ مَعَهُ قَوْمٌ يَخْشَى أَنْ يَحْبِسَهُمْ عَنْ عَشَائِهِمْ فَلْيُفْطِرْ مَعَهُمْ وَ إِنْ كَانَ غَيْرُ ذَلِكَ فَلْيُصَلِّ وَ لْيُفْطِرْ
Ali bin Ibraheem reported from his father from Ibn Abi Umayr from Hammad from al-Halabi who said:
Once I asked Abu Abdillah (A) about breaking the fast - if it is before or after Salat? He (the Imam) said: If he (the imam of salat) is afraid of keeping them (?) from their dinner, first it is is breaking fast with them; otherwise, first is salat then it is breaking the fast.
(Grading of chain: Hasan)

at-Tahdheeb al-Ahkaam, volume 4, (book 51), p198, hadeeth 6:
[6] عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ أَبِي نَجْرَانَ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ حَرِيزٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ وَ فُضَيْلٍ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع فِي رَمَضَانَ تُصَلِّي ثُمَّ تُفْطِرُ إِلَّا أَنْ تَكُونَ مَعَ قَوْمٍ يَنْتَظِرُونَ الْإِفْطَارَ فَإِنْ كُنْتَ مَعَهُمْ فَلَا تُخَالِفْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ أَفْطِرْ ثُمَّ صَلِّ وَ إِلَّا فَابْدَأْ بِالصَّلَاةِ قُلْتُ وَ لِمَ ذَلِكَ قَالَ لِأَنَّهُ قَدْ حَضَرَكَ فَرْضَانِ الْإِفْطَارُ وَ الصَّلَاةُ فَابْدَأْ بِأَفْضَلِهِمَا وَ أَفْضَلُهُمَا الصَّلَاةُ ثُمَّ قَالَ تُصَلِّي وَ أَنْتَ صَائِمٌ فَتُكْتَبُ صَلَاتُكَ تِلْكَ فَتَخْتِمُ بِالصَّوْمِ أَحَبُّ إِلَيَّ
(Grading of chain: Saheeh I think)

at-Tahdheeb al-Ahkaam, volume 4, (book 51), p199, hadeeth 11:
[11] عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَحْمَدَ ابْنَيِ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ أَبِيهِمَا عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ بُكَيْرٍ عَنْ بَعْضِ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ يُسْتَحَبُّ لِلصَّائِمِ إِنْ قَوِيَ عَلَى ذَلِكَ أَنْ يُصَلِّيَ قَبْلَ أَنْ يُفْطِر
(Grading of chain: Technically mursal, but likely to be saheeh i think)

I do not have translations for the latter two hadeeths

May Allah help us increase in the number of mustahhab actions we perform.

Edited by Yasoob Al Deen, 11 August 2011 - 10:01 PM.

[Waiting for HIM]

My observations is mostly Shia pray Maghrib first, open the fast, eat dinner, and then pray Isha.

[Yasoob Al Deen]

The last two hadeeths have been kindly translated by brother Macisaac, may Allah reward him and bless him:

[6] عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ أَبِي نَجْرَانَ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ حَرِيزٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ وَ فُضَيْلٍ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع فِي رَمَضَانَ تُصَلِّي ثُمَّ تُفْطِرُ إِلَّا أَنْ تَكُونَ مَعَ قَوْمٍ يَنْتَظِرُونَ الْإِفْطَارَ فَإِنْ كُنْتَ مَعَهُمْ فَلَا تُخَالِفْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ أَفْطِرْ ثُمَّ صَلِّ وَ إِلَّا فَابْدَأْ بِالصَّلَاةِ قُلْتُ وَ لِمَ ذَلِكَ قَالَ لِأَنَّهُ قَدْ حَضَرَكَ فَرْضَانِ الْإِفْطَارُ وَ الصَّلَاةُ فَابْدَأْ بِأَفْضَلِهِمَا وَ أَفْضَلُهُمَا الصَّلَاةُ ثُمَّ قَالَ تُصَلِّي وَ أَنْتَ صَائِمٌ فَتُكْتَبُ صَلَاتُكَ تِلْكَ فَتَخْتِمُ بِالصَّوْمِ أَحَبُّ إِلَيَّ

`Ali b. Ibrahim from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Najran from Hammad b. `Isa from Hariz from Zurara and Fudayl from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام In Ramadan you pray then you break your fast unless you are with a group who are waiting for the iftar. So if you are with them then do not disagree with them and break your fast then pray, otherwise then begin with the salat. I said: And why is that? He said: For two obligations have become present to you, the iftar and the salat, so begin with the best of them and the best of them is the salat. Then he said: That you pray while you are fasting and that, your salat, be written and so sealed by the fast is more beloved to me.

:
[11] عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَحْمَدَ ابْنَيِ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ أَبِيهِمَا عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ بُكَيْرٍ عَنْ بَعْضِ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ يُسْتَحَبُّ لِلصَّائِمِ إِنْ قَوِيَ عَلَى ذَلِكَ أَنْ يُصَلِّيَ قَبْلَ أَنْ يُفْطِر

`Ali b. al-Hasan from Muhammad and Ahmad the sons of al-Hasan from their father from `Abdullah b. Bukayr from one of our companions from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: It is preferable for the faster, if he is able to do that, to pray prior to breaking his fast.

[~Zee Zee~]

okay jazkallah khair very good topic well that makes it clear for everyone alhamduillah

[La fata illa Ali]

Thanks Yasoob, this is very interesting.

Now I have some questions for you.


I am in the habit of praying Isha in its fadheelat time which is approx 1 hour and 15 minutes after salatul Maghrib.

How are we so sure that the Imam meant both Maghrib and Isha???

I know, it probably means maghrib and isha thereafter iftaar and not just after maghrib but I cant really see how it comes to the conclusion that both salatul Maghrib and ishaa be prayed.

The following excerpt makes one inclined to think both Maghrib and ishaa "... That you pray while you are fasting and that, your salat, be written and so sealed by the fast is more beloved to me."
This is what makes it strongly indicative that combining maghrib and isha in this instance and then iftar is better then praying Ishaa in its fadheelat time.
However, one could reasonably argue that Imam is only referring to Maghrib only???

Of course, shia are no stranger to combining salat so its obviously not an issue at all.



So I guess thats my question:
In Shahr Ramadhan, is it better to combine maghrib and isha while still fasting and then break the fast compared to praying maghrib, breaking the fast, and praying ishaa at its fadheelat time???

[Murtada]

^Agreed. Answer appreciated.

[Islamic Salvation]

The last two hadeeths have been kindly translated by brother Macisaac, may Allah reward him and bless him:

[6] عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ أَبِي نَجْرَانَ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ حَرِيزٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ وَ فُضَيْلٍ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع فِي رَمَضَانَ تُصَلِّي ثُمَّ تُفْطِرُ إِلَّا أَنْ تَكُونَ مَعَ قَوْمٍ يَنْتَظِرُونَ الْإِفْطَارَ فَإِنْ كُنْتَ مَعَهُمْ فَلَا تُخَالِفْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ أَفْطِرْ ثُمَّ صَلِّ وَ إِلَّا فَابْدَأْ بِالصَّلَاةِ قُلْتُ وَ لِمَ ذَلِكَ قَالَ لِأَنَّهُ قَدْ حَضَرَكَ فَرْضَانِ الْإِفْطَارُ وَ الصَّلَاةُ فَابْدَأْ بِأَفْضَلِهِمَا وَ أَفْضَلُهُمَا الصَّلَاةُ ثُمَّ قَالَ تُصَلِّي وَ أَنْتَ صَائِمٌ فَتُكْتَبُ صَلَاتُكَ تِلْكَ فَتَخْتِمُ بِالصَّوْمِ أَحَبُّ إِلَيَّ

`Ali b. Ibrahim from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Najran from Hammad b. `Isa from Hariz from Zurara and Fudayl from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام In Ramadan you pray then you break your fast unless you are with a group who are waiting for the iftar. So if you are with them then do not disagree with them and break your fast then pray, otherwise then begin with the salat. I said: And why is that? He said: For two obligations have become present to you, the iftar and the salat, so begin with the best of them and the best of them is the salat. Then he said: That you pray while you are fasting and that, your salat, be written and so sealed by the fast is more beloved to me.


It should be Ali bin Hasan and not Ali bin Ibrahim - from Abd ar-Rahman bin abi Najran from Hammad bin Isa from Hariz from Zurara and Fudayl from Abu Ja'far عليه السلام

Ali bin Hasan here is bin Fadhal,

and this Hadith is therefore Muwathaq due to him since he was from the Fathiyya until his return,

Also one of the two chains of the Shaykh (at-Tusi) to Ali bin Hasan bin Fadhal is as follows:

أخبرنا بكتبه و رواياته عدة من أصحابنا عن محمد بن علي بن الحسين عن محمد بن الحسن و عن أبيه عن سعد بن عبد الله، و الحميري عن أحمد بن محمد، و محمد بن الحسين عن الحسن بن علي بن فضال
Have reported all of his books and narrations - a group of our companions (i.e Shaykh Mufid being in this group) from Muhammad bin Ali bin Husayn (Shaykh Saduq) from Muhammad bin Hasan (bin Ahmad - Ibn Walid) and from his father (Ali bin Husayn - Ibn Babawayh) from Sa'ad bin Abdallah (al-Qummiy) and al-Himyariy (Abdallah bin Ja'far) from Ahmad bin Muhammad (bin Isa - al-Ash'ariy) and Muhammad bin Husayn (bin abil Khattab) from (him) Hasan bin Ali bin Fadhal.

so the chain is -

at-Tusi>Mufid>as-Saduq>Ibn Walid and Ibn Babawayh>al-Qummiy and al-Himyariy>al-Ash'ary and Ibn abil Khattab>Ibn Fadhal>Ibn abi Najran>Hammad>Hariz>Zurara and Fudhayl>Imam Abu Ja'far.

and all of its men are Thiqat.

Edited by Islamic Salvation, 12 August 2011 - 12:15 AM.

[Yasoob Al Deen]

La fata illa Ali, on 11 August 2011 - 11:07 PM, said:

I am in the habit of praying Isha in its fadheelat time which is approx 1 hour and 15 minutes after salatul Maghrib.

No, it's not. That is the timing of some of the Sunni madhabs. Refer to http://www.shiachat....with-certainty/ for a detailed discussion with quotes - (they start talking about time of Maghrib and Isha after discussion of three stars). In brief, the time for Ishaa' is:

و أوّل وقت صلاة المغرب عند غيبوبة الشّمس. و علامته سقوط القرص. و علامة سقوطه عدم الحمرة من جانب المشرق. و آخر وقته سقوط الشّفق، و هو الحمرة من ناحية المغرب
“The first time of Salaah Al-Maghrib is at the disappearance of the sun, and the sign of the falling of the sun’s disk. The sign of the sunset is the absence of the redness (in the sky) from the east side. The final time (of maghrib) is the disappearance of the shafaq (evening twilight), and it is the (disappearance of) redness in terms of the west side.”

Source:

• Al-Toosi, Al-Nihaayah fee Majarrad Al-Fiqh wa Al-Fataawa, pg. 59

This means there's about roughly 20 minutes between Maghrib and Ishaa.

Quote

How are we so sure that the Imam meant both Maghrib and Isha???

I think Abbas Qummi and Sistani meant if you're praying the two prayers together.

Quote

In Shahr Ramadhan, is it better to combine maghrib and isha while still fasting and then break the fast compared to praying maghrib, breaking the fast, and praying ishaa at its fadheelat time???

I don't know the answer. But I guess if you were to do this, this is what would happen: you'd pray Salat al-Maghrib, break your fast and begin eating your meal, then by the time you're finishing off your (first) plate of food it's Ishaa' time, so you go pray Salat al-Ishaa' and then  return to your food. Your concentration would probably be significantly less during the last prayer.
I think "That you pray while you are fasting and that, your salat, be written and so sealed by the fast is more beloved to me."  may indicate that it is mustahhab to pray combined.

Perhaps a knowledgable brother could help us solve this question. Have the Ulema spoken on this issue?

Islamic Salvation, on 11 August 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

It should be Ali bin Hasan and not Ali bin Ibrahim - from Abd ar-Rahman bin abi Najran from Hammad bin Isa from Hariz from Zurara and Fudayl from Abu Ja'far عليه السلام

Ali bin Hasan here is bin Fadhal,

and This Hadith is Muwathaq due to him since he was from the Fathiyya until his return,

Oops. I completely forgot about the existence of the muwaththaq grading. X_x  It's 5am. What do you expect heh...

Quote

Also the chain of the Shaykh (at-Tusi) to Ali bin Hasan bin Fadhal is as follows:

أخبرنا بجميع رواياته : عدة من أصحابنا ، عن محمّد بن علي بن الحسين ، عن محمّد بن الحسن ، عن أبيه ، عن سعد بن عبد الله والحميري ، عن أحمد بن محمّد ومحمد بن الحسين ، عنه


at-Tusi>Mufid>as-Saduq>Ibn Walid>his father>al-Qummiy and al-Himyariy>al-Ash'ary and Ibn abil Khattab>Ibn Fadhal>Ibn abi Najran>Hammad>Hariz>Zurara and Fudhayl>Imam Abu Ja'far



and all of its men are Thiqat.

JazakAllah khayr.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Mashallah brothers very informative topic.

[turncoat91]

Great, found this really helpful

[Nader Zaveri]

Yasoob Al Deen, on 11 August 2011 - 09:59 PM, said:

Sistani says:
1759. It is Mustahab that a person breaks his fast after offering Maghrib and Isha prayers. However, if he feels terribly inclined to eat, so much that he cannot concentrate on the prayers, or if someone is waiting for him, it is better that he should break his fast first and offer the prayers later. However, as far as possible, he should try to offer the prayers during the prime time (Fadheelat).

We had a discussion about this subject last RamaDaan on trying to find the reason why al-Sistani says "Maghrib and Isha prayers". Like where is he getting this from? The aHaadeeth mentioned الصلاة, which is singular. If anything it shows that you pray your Maghrib salaah, and break your fast, then pray your `Ishaa'. I haven't found any naSS for the reason why he specified Maghrib and Isha.

I'll have to check al-Sistani's arabic Risaalah to see what he says there, sometimes the English risaalah is not accurate in their translation or his views.

Wallaahu A`lim.

Edited by Nader Zaveri, 12 August 2011 - 06:01 PM.

[Yasoob Al Deen]

Nader Zaveri, on 12 August 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

We had a discussion about this subject last RamaDaan on trying to find the reason why al-Sistani says "Maghrib and Isha prayers". Like where is he getting this from? The aHaadeeth mentioned الصلاة, which is singular. If anything it shows that you pray your Maghrib salaah, and break your fast, then pray your `Ishaa'. I haven't found any naSS for the reason why he specified Maghrib and Isha.

I'll have to check al-Sistani's arabic Risaalah to see what he says there, sometimes the English risaalah is not accurate in their translation or his views.

So the hadeeth implies that if you are praying seperately, then you pray salat al-maghrib, break your fast, eat, get up half-way through the meal and pray salat al-ishaa?
Please try to find the daleel behind Khui's fatwa (Sistani copied it).
JazakAllah khayr for helping us out so far.

[shiamale]

if all your gonna think about is food while praying then why not break it at maghrib time and then pray, then eat proper

[macisaac]

shiamale, on 15 August 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

if all your gonna think about is food while praying then why not break it at maghrib time and then pray, then eat proper

In that case:



[ 13083 ] 5 ـ قال : وروى أيضا في ذلك : إنك إذا كنت تتمكن من الصلاة وتعقلها وتأتي ( على جميع ) حدودها قبل أن تفطر فالافضل أن تصلي قبل الافطار ، وإن كنت ممن تنازعك نفسك للافطار وتشغلك شهوتك عن الصلاة فابدء بالافطار ليذهب عنك وسواس النفساللوامة ، غير أن ذلك مشروط بأنه لا يشتغل بالافطار قبل الصلاة إلى أن يخرج وقت الصلاة .

5 – He (Shaykh Mufid in al-Muqni`a) said: And is also narrated regarding that: Verily when you are able to pray and apprehend it and come upon all of its bounds prior to you breaking your fast, then the best is that you pray prior to the iftar.  And if you are someone whose self contends with you for the iftar and your desire distracts you from the salat, then begin with the iftar so that the whispering of the reproaching self (waswas an-nafs al-lawwama) leaves you, except that that is conditional that one not be busied with the iftar prior to the salat (to the point) that the time of salat goes out.

http://www.tashayyu....aster/chapter-7

[Gypsy]

This is not new. Most Shias (that I know) pray Maghrib first before opening their fast.

You can always have a plate of date beside you. First pray maghrib. After praying maghrib you open your fast with the date. Then pray Isha. And then go and have a proper meal.
Or just pray Maghrib and Isha and then open your fast.

But if you have guests or the meal is distracting you from Salah, then of course you should eat first.

[La fata illa Ali]

Zareen, on 15 August 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:

This is not new. Most Shias (that I know) pray Maghrib first before opening their fast.

You can always have a plate of date beside you. First pray maghrib. After praying maghrib you open your fast with the date. Then pray Isha. And then go and have a proper meal.
Or just pray Maghrib and Isha and then open your fast.

But if you have guests or the meal is distracting you from Salah, then of course you should eat first.

well actually, most shia I know like to have 'that date' and that 'glass of water' b4 maghrib. this is really good to know that that 'date' and 'water' really isnt essential and can wait after at least maghrib and if not aghrib and isha.


To Yasoob:

My previous comment regarding the time of isha was made based on the fact that I was following the info from praytime.info.

I was told that those times for Asr and isha are the fadheelat times. Thank you for clarifying that ishaa fadheelat time is only 20 minuts after maghrib and not the 1 hour and 15 minutes as I previously thought.

[syed_shia]

salaam

Very interesting, as i have often wondered about this.

Quote

I don't know the answer. But I guess if you were to do this, this is what would happen: you'd pray Salat al-Maghrib, break your fast and begin eating your meal, then by the time you're finishing off your (first) plate of food it's Ishaa' time, so you go pray Salat al-Ishaa' and then return to your food. Your concentration would probably be significantly less during the last prayer.
I think "That you pray while you are fasting and that, your salat, be written and so sealed by the fast is more beloved to me." may indicate that it is mustahhab to pray combined.

In ramadhan we have the nafilah prayers which sunnis call tarawih. So if we combine the prayers of maghrib and isha and then pray the nafilah prayers, it could mean we wouldnt break our fast untill weel 45 minutes after its time.

So one shoud read maghrib and then the nafilah of ramadhan prayers, break their fast, sit down with family and eat etc,, wait for fadhilat time for isha then pray + the nafilah.

This seems to make more sense, but cant get my head around combining it during ramadhan.

Sunnis tend to break their fast with a date at maghrib adhan and then have their iftari meal. However with the hadith mentioned, it appears fasting while praying maghrib is better.

But the hadith itself doesnt mention breaking fast after isha. So what is the opinion if one is reading it seperate. Any hadith on this? We can easily assume it can just be referring the maghrib. If its referring to isha, at certain times to wait for that fadhilat time it can be an hour difference, should we wait to that time, bearing in mind if we didnt want to combine it?

Salaam

[macisaac]

La fata illa Ali, on 15 August 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:

I was told that those times for Asr and isha are the fadheelat times. Thank you for clarifying that ishaa fadheelat time is only 20 minuts after maghrib and not the 1 hour and 15 minutes as I previously thought.

I'm not sure where Yasoob got the 20 minutes from.  The fadilat time for `isha is when the redness of the western horizon has disappeared (same as the Shafi`i `isha time, but not the Hanafi) which I think is around an hour or so after sunset roughly.  The online prayertime charts though often just add an hour and a half (which is baseless) or reflect the later Hanafi time (which is when the whiteness disappears).

[Vigilare]

macisaac, on 16 August 2011 - 06:31 AM, said:

I'm not sure where Yasoob got the 20 minutes from.  The fadilat time for `isha is when the redness of the western horizon has disappeared (same as the Shafi`i `isha time, but not the Hanafi) which I think is around an hour or so after sunset roughly.  The online prayertime charts though often just add an hour and a half (which is baseless) or reflect the later Hanafi time (which is when the whiteness disappears).

Are there any sites which show shia times for Isha (and Asr)?

Personally, this Ramadhan I have been opening my fast, praying Margrib and nawafil, then eating but normally I'd do salat first.

[macisaac]

Vigilare, on 19 August 2011 - 06:25 PM, said:

Are there any sites which show shia times for Isha (and Asr)?

Personally, this Ramadhan I have been opening my fast, praying Margrib and nawafil, then eating but normally I'd do salat first.

I don't trust any of those sites completely, but if you can find one that gives you the Shafi`i prayer times (as opposed to Hanafi) you can find something approximate to our own for that.

[Vigilare]

macisaac, on 19 August 2011 - 06:59 PM, said:

I don't trust any of those sites completely, but if you can find one that gives you the Shafi`i prayer times (as opposed to Hanafi) you can find something approximate to our own for that.

Thank you.

Back to the original discussion, I find it interesting that it's yet another one of those differences between the Sunnis and Shias - they will always open their fast first then pray, based on their hadith -

Sahl bin Sa'd Radiyallahu Anhuma narrated that the Meseenger of Allah said: "The people will continue to be in good state of affairs as long as they hasten the breaking of the fast." (Source: Summarized Sahih Muslim, Volume 1, Hadith 593)

I wonder if one is in spite of the other...