294 replies to this topic

[Lanatin]

CLynn, on 05 November 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Just curious Lanatin,
What make one a 'Bible thumper'?

By seeing religion as a matter of competition where sensationalism has to be employed and vomited propaganda without trying to truthfully state the teachings of any faith.

Adios

[CLynn]

"And what makes one not a 'Qur'an thumper'?"

[Lanatin]

CLynn, on 05 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

"And what makes one not a 'Qur'an thumper'?"

By not doing the above with respect to other religions.

You get the drift.

[CLynn]

@Lanatin,

So only Muslims "truthfully state the teachings of any faith"?
and they are never "seeing religion as a matter of competition"?  (Even though it was Muhammad who made it so.)
and they have never "vomited propaganda "?  (even though they call the scriptures of others corrupt)

but other people speaking of their religion... these are the things you attribute to them.

Nothing one-sided there.

[Lanatin]

CLynn, on 05 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

@Lanatin,

So only Muslims "truthfully state the teachings of any faith"?
and they are never "seeing religion as a matter of competition"?  (Even though it was Muhammad who made it so.)
and they have never "vomited propaganda "?  (even though they call the scriptures of others corrupt)

but other people speaking of their religion... these are the things you attribute to them.

Nothing one-sided there.

What? Are you high or something? You asked what makes one not a Quran thumper and I replied its a muslim who does not follow the same example of bible thumpers with respect to other religions. No one has made these buffoonish generalizations that you fantasized.

...well  to be fair I expected someone of your brain capacity to go off on a tangent with irrelevant rhetorical questions. You should also quit your lowlife habit of building on your assumptions and going on sudden attacks on a faith.  Just to clear the air before you deflect attention any further:

A) by competition i mean someone who goes through every unethical route to slander and demean a faith just for the sake of defeating it

Claiming scriptures have been corrupted is not vomiting propaganda.

[CLynn]

Well Lanatin, Your first reply was well taken before you edited.  I was going to suggest you repost that one but realized I could do it myself.


___________________________________________
When did I make any buffoonish generalizations against christians ? I'm speaking to YOU and your ilk specifically. You seem to have a difficult time comprehending what people say. You also have a habit of deflecting attention away from the main topic and coming out with random punchlines about taqiyyah and islam in general - which is incredibly annoying. Take the following for example
------------ QUOTE ----------
(Even though it was Muhammad who made it so.)
-----------------------------
Umm...no since christianity preceded islam so this clearly isnt the case (remember jesus saying that he didnt come to bring peace but division). The Prophet of Islam said all previous religions are valid revelations of God that have laudable teachings in common with Islam; he just went on to say he's the seal of prophets who testifies to the truth of their message and has come with a new sharia  (law) that abrogates the previous ones.

------------ QUOTE ----------
even though they call the scriptures of others corrupt
-----------------------------
That isnt 'vomiting propaganda', what im saying is a repetitive slander of another religion. Saying scriptures have become corrupted is a charge, an accusation - it has nothing to do with the content and teachings of an existing creed.

See that above, your inability to comprehend what someone says and the irrelevant backchat that you defecate really doesnt reflect positively on your persona.
________________________________________




and the only thing I would say to this is,
I did not say anything about Christians either, and the rest was well taken.


To your more recent comment above I have to say this,
       "by competition i mean someone who goes through every unethical route to slander and demean a faith just for the sake of defeating it"

and you do not think that Islam does this very thing?

       " Claiming scriptures have been corrupted is not vomiting propaganda."

From my perspective it is.


Regarding the taqiya comment,
Can you deny that Islam teaches taqiya.  Have I made any false statement?

Edited by CLynn, 05 November 2012 - 09:45 PM.

[placid]

Hi Yoel,

There is one more subject that I want to mention before we depart from this topic.
The Book of Genesis says that the land of Canaan would become the ‘Promised Land’ for Israel, and that He would make a great Nation of Ishmael, who would have 12 Princes (sons.).

It is interesting to note that Noah and his family came off the Ark in Genesis 8, about 2350 BC. --- And the Genealogies are given in Genesis 10:
1 Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.
² The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. ³ The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath,^[a] and Togarmah. ⁴ The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.^{[b] 5} From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put,^[c] and Canaan. ⁷ The sons of Cush were Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan.
8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. ⁹ He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, “Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.” ¹⁰ And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. ¹¹ From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, ¹² and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city).
19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. ²⁰ These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands and in their nations.

21 And children were born also to Shem, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder. ²² The sons of Shem were Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram. ²³ The sons of Aram were Uz, Hul, Gether, and Mash.^{[d] 24} Arphaxad begot Salah,^[e] and Salah begot Eber. ²⁵ To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan. ²⁶ Joktan begot Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, ²⁷ Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, ²⁸ Obal,^[f] Abimael, Sheba, ²⁹ Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan. ³⁰ And their dwelling place was from Mesha as you go toward Sephar, the mountain of the east. ³¹ These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands, according to their nations.
³² These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.

In verse 5 they are called Gentiles, and while names may be boring to read, many of them were familiar in Bible times. --- In Genesis 11 it continues, but gives more detail so I will just mention the important ones from Eber to Abraham;
Eber was a descendant of Shem, and some believe that the name ‘Hebrew’ came from Eber. --- Eber begat Peleg, Peleg begat Reu, Reu begat Serug, Serug begat Nehor, Nehor begat Terah, Terah begat Abram, (Abraham)
Abraham begat Ishmael and Isaac, --- about 1900 BC

Ishmael and his mother Hagar went out from Abraham --- and Ishmael later took an Egyptian wife, and they had 12 sons as God had promised.
If we allow about 50 years for these sons to mature and spread out on their own, this would be about 1850 BC, --- and Noah came off the Ark about 2350 BC, --- so there was about 500 years of population before the descendants of Ishmael.

It is interesting that the Gentile peoples from the sons of Noah settled in the North, both above and below the Black sea, some of the names are familiar in Russia, --- and they no doubt went West towards Europe. And South from Syria down to Shinar, Babylon iin Iraq and on into Iran --- Canaan and his descendants went down into Canaan (Palestine) but they were idolatrous tribes and eventually God destroyed them for their wickedness, even down to Sodom and Gomorrah.

It is interesting to know what inheritance God reserved for Ishmael.

(Enough for now)    


Placid

[umair24]

aladdin, on 11 September 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

Salam brother,

According to Islam, Jesus didn't die on the cross, so therefore he didn't come back after three days. According to Islam, Jesus appeared to be dead on the cross, but he wasn't and God took him and that he will come back to die on earth. According to Wahhabis, Jesus came back much later on and died a natural death without anyone knowing him. And, he is already dead.

But according to all Shia and most Sunni, he will come back under the leadership of Imam Madhi and they both will unite the mankind under the Kingdom of God. Jesus then will be killed and die on earth so that he will resurrected like everyone else.

don't associate lies to wahhabies lol..It is the consensus of every muslim that isa will return along with imam mehdi!!

[placid]

To continue from Post 282:
God spoke about the inheritance of Ishmael in Genesis 17:
¹⁹ Then God said: “Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.
²⁰ And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
²¹ But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”

And it lists the descendants of Ishmael in Genesis 25:
¹² Now this is the genealogy of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s maidservant, bore to Abraham.
¹³ And these were the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; then Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam,
¹⁴ Mishma, Dumah, Massa,
¹⁵ Hadar, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.
¹⁶ These were the sons of Ishmael and these were their names, by their towns and their settlements, twelve princes according to their nations.
¹⁷ These were the years of the life of Ishmael: one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people.
¹⁸ (They dwelt from Havilah as far as Shur, which is East of Egypt as you go toward Assyria.) He died in the presence of all his brethren

So, notice where the towns, and settlements, and nations from v18 were:
Havilah has 2 locations but it is perhaps in South Eastern Arabia, and went West to Shur in the Sinai, East of Egypt. --- Then North to Assyria, which was a large area.

It seems that most of this is desert, and seemed to be bypassed by the earlier settlers who sought out the Fertile Crescent, and the area around the Black Sea.

So Ishmael was led to settle in Saudi Arabia, and they established caravan routes from the North and East to Egypt. They became traders and merchants.

Joseph was disliked by his brothers who wanted to get rid of him, in Genesis 37:
25 And they sat down to eat a meal. Then they lifted their eyes and looked, and there was a company of Ishmaelites, coming from Gilead with their camels, bearing spices, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry them down to Egypt.
²⁶ So Judah said to his brothers, “What profit is there if we kill our brother and conceal his blood?
²⁷ Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him, for he is our brother and our flesh.” And his brothers listened.
²⁸ Then Midianite traders passed by; so the brothers pulled Joseph up and lifted him out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver. And they took Joseph to Egypt.
--- So here we have the Ishmaelites, and Midianite traders. (Midian was a son of Abraham, through his wife Keturah, whose families had settled in Jordan.)

So, while the children of Jacob were still farmers and sheepherders, the children of Ishmael were businessmen with caravans and merchandise, moving goods from the North and East down to Egypt.

(A little more later, to finish the history)


Placid

[Yoel]

CLynn, on 05 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Even though it was Muhammad who made it so.

Hi Clynn,

He didn't, as far as I understand. Muhammad's constitution of Medina was a joint pact of all religious communities and Islam firmly recognizes Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism (the Sabean religion, to be exact, which is often identified with Zoroastrianism) and Hinduism (by some opinions). There is criticism in the Quran addressed to the behavior of the Jews who happened to live around Muhammad at that period of time, but the Islamic theological discussions about religion in general usually sound like respectful dialogue, quite different from the common Protestant belief that non-Christians will burn in hell forever for not believing in a particular theology about Jesus.

I recommend you to study some basics about Islam. It's not a monolithic religion. Wahhabis, mainstream Sunnis or various varieties, mainstream Twelver Shia, various types of Sufis have different opinions about lots of things. Then there are Ismailis, Alawi, Bektashi, Ahmadiyya and other groups on outskirts of mainstream Islam. Many Muslims don't say that scriptures of other religions are seriously corrupt beyond a few verses or that other religions are obsolete.

I would also recommend you not to compare your church-going friends to some Muslims who you met online, because it's not a fair comparison. You can easliy find a plenty of hostile forums and nutcases on the Internet from all religions. It's better to become friends with real people and talk face-to-face.

Edited by Yoel, 14 November 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[Lanatin]

Yoel, on 14 November 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Hi Clynn,

He didn't, as far as I understand. Muhammad's constitution of Medina was a joint pact of all religious communities and Islam firmly recognizes Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism (the Sabean religion, to be exact, which is often identified with Zoroastrianism) and Hinduism (by some opinions). There is criticism in the Quran addressed to the behavior of the Jews who happened to live around Muhammad at that period of time, but the Islamic theological discussions about religion in general usually sound like respectful dialogue, quite different from the common Protestant belief that non-Christians will burn in hell forever for not believing in a particular theology about Jesus.

I recommend you to study some basics about Islam. It's not a monolithic religion. Wahhabis, mainstream Sunnis or various varieties, mainstream Twelver Shia, various types of Sufis have different opinions about lots of things. Then there are Ismailis, Alawi, Bektashi, Ahmadiyya and other groups on outskirts of mainstream Islam. Many Muslims don't say that scriptures of other religions are seriously corrupt beyond a few verses or that other religions are obsolete.

I would also recommend you not to compare your church-going friends to some Muslims who you met online, because it's not a fair comparison. You can easliy find a plenty of hostile forums and nutcases on the Internet from all religions. It's better to become friends with real people and talk face-to-face.

You are talking to a brick wall, she's not on a genuine research but is a blind contrarian as is seen in our brief dialogue we had. I make points against her, she lays it back mindlessly on our religion just for the sake of replying (and without substantiating any of her drivel, even though no one is attacking her faith); she's just opting for a brawl in a zeal to discredit our broad religion. It's why I stopped talking to her, as no meaningful dialogue could take place. Just some pitiful mudslinging.

[CLynn]

Yoel, on 14 November 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Hi Clynn,

He didn't, as far as I understand. Muhammad's constitution of Medina was a joint pact of all religious communities and Islam firmly recognizes Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism (the Sabean religion, to be exact, which is often identified with Zoroastrianism) and Hinduism (by some opinions). There is criticism in the Quran addressed to the behavior of the Jews who happened to live around Muhammad at that period of time, but the Islamic theological discussions about religion in general usually sound like respectful dialogue, quite different from the common Protestant belief that non-Christians will burn in hell forever for not believing in a particular theology about Jesus.

I recommend you to study some basics about Islam. It's not a monolithic religion. Wahhabis, mainstream Sunnis or various varieties, mainstream Twelver Shia, various types of Sufis have different opinions about lots of things. Then there are Ismailis, Alawi, Bektashi, Ahmadiyya and other groups on outskirts of mainstream Islam. Many Muslims don't say that scriptures of other religions are seriously corrupt beyond a few verses or that other religions are obsolete.

I would also recommend you not to compare your church-going friends to some Muslims who you met online, because it's not a fair comparison. You can easliy find a plenty of hostile forums and nutcases on the Internet from all religions. It's better to become friends with real people and talk face-to-face.

Greetings Yoel,

I respect your reply and thank you for addressing me respectfully.  I do wish that I could meet and converse with Muslims in person.  The internet is the only place I have to go to 'meet' and get to know anything about them.  I always had a good view of Muslims.  I have looked more deeply into Islam and yes, I see that there are many different views and practices.
Respectfully I must ask... where do you think the prejudice towards Jews, Christians and others, comes from if not from the teaching of Muhammad?  There was not always peace between Muhammad and the Jews.  Yes, in Medina I believe Muhammad was peaceable with the Jews, Christians, and others... he wanted their support, but when he realized they would continue to reject him as a prophet of their God, then things changed. Muhammad then began to speak against their scriptures, and against accepting the people, calling them unbelievers, and he sought support elsewhere.  Later under Muhammad's rule and teaching the Jews and others had to accept second class status and unfair taxing for the cause of peace. Yet they would not abandon their faith. Would any Muslim, any person, be happy with this second class status?  Those with no faith had no problem joining with Muhammad to avoid these penalties.  But when did Jews ever fight against their oppressors?  Haven't they always accepted whatever rule they found themselves under?  In Russia, in Poland, in Germany...?  Weren't they always being pushed around?  Where did they ever find equal treatment?  Even when they first went to America... even in America, there was discrimination against them for being so different, but they were at least equal.  And they always persevere through difficulty and hardship.  (This is how I see it.)

"Many Muslims don't say that scriptures of other religions are seriously corrupt beyond a few verses or that other religions are obsolete."

This is good to know.  Thank you for sharing.
I'm not sure why you referred to 'church-going friends'.  I think it may be due to an earlier post where I was making a statement about 'Christians', meaning to clarify that by Christians I meant people who attend churches.  I have never heard any speaking against any religion, or people, coming from any church service.  [amend this:  except the crazy guy in Florida that wanted to burn Qur'an's and I am sure there are other crazies, and false teachers, but it is not mainstream or even commonplace.]

Thank you very much for your kind reply,
CLynn

Edited by CLynn, 14 November 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[Wing]

Lol @ CLynn.....

I think you were kindly adviced to do research before making a conclusion/entering a debate.
Lanatin was right and your last post proves it.

CLynn, on 14 November 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Respectfully I must ask... where do you think the prejudice towards Jews, Christians and others, comes from if not from the teaching of Muhammad?  There was not always peace between Muhammad and the Jews.  Yes, in Medina I believe Muhammad was peaceable with the Jews, Christians, and others... he wanted their support, but when he realized they would continue to reject him as a prophet of their God, then things changed.

Wrong from the very start. If his teaching created prejudice then not 1 Jew/Christian would've been spared when the Arabs conquered (their) land. Instead, they all lived equal under his rule.
Peace can never be maintained from 1 side only. It was the jews who did the first move. Research to find out.

Quote

Muhammad then began to speak against their scriptures, and against accepting the people, calling them unbelievers, and he sought support elsewhere.

You pretty much described Muhammad as a swindler here. Nice to see your prejudice(with little knowledge) come to light.

Edited by Wing, 16 November 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[CLynn]

@Wing

Salaam,
I have done a great deal of research.  My view is not prejudice. (If you read my whole post with an open mind you will see that.)  What I have learned may be different from what you have learned.

[Yoel]

Hi CLynn,

CLynn, on 14 November 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Respectfully I must ask... where do you think the prejudice towards Jews, Christians and others, comes from if not from the teaching of Muhammad?

Where prejudice comes from? From generalizations, hateful populist booklets, bad historical and personal encounters, bad jokes etc. Why do some whites hate blacks and vice versa? Does it have to come from the Gospels?

Quote

Would any Muslim, any person, be happy with this second class status?

This second-class status of non-Muslims was actually a very progressive invention compared to outright killings, expulsions, tortures and other things routinely inflicted against the non-Christians population in the Christian world throughout the history. Jews in Muslim countries were protected (not always as full citizens though), while in many Christian countries they couldn't live at all or a local ruler could expell, force them to convert or kill.

If I remember correctly, the dhimmi status comes from the early Chalips and not necessarily from Muhammad. It was not de facto operational in many places (Chechnya is one example; there was a well respected Chechen Jewish clan among Muslim clans) and has been long abrogated by many scholars, both Sunni and Shia.

Quote

I have never heard any speaking against any religion, or people, coming from any church service.

And I went to Russia just a few days ago and heard some fanatical Orthodox Christians talking in the subway very nasty about the "evil" Muslim immigrants, who do now many cheap and hard jobs in Russia like street cleaning without having any rights in the country. On the way back I had to spend the night at the airport and we had a very pleasant long conversation with a Tatar Muslim woman...

For American examples, CBN has often hateful talks against Muslims and other non-Christians (not Jews though, for whatever reason). Pat Robertson is notorious for that, for example.

Edited by Yoel, 27 November 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[placid]

Hi Yoel,

--- (To add a little to your conversation concerning prejudice)
I find no place where Muhammad ever spoke against true believers in the Quran.

I have understood the following from the introduction to Mr Pickthall’s translation.
--- He said that 'the opposition to Muhammad’s preaching in Mecca and Ta’if was rigid and the only time Muhammad was allowed to preach openly in the later years in Mecca was at the annual Pilgrimage.'

Quote: His Mission was a failure judged by worldly standards, when at the season of the yearly pilgrimage, he came upon a little group of men who heard him gladly.
They came from Yathrib, a city more than 200 miles away, which has since become world famous Al Madinah, “The City.” At Yathrib there were Jewish tribes with learned rabbis, who had often spoken to the pagans of a prophet soon to come among the Arabs. --- When the men from Yathrib saw Muhammad they recognized him as the prophet the Jewish rabbis described to them. On their return to Yathrib they told what they had seen and heard, --- with the result that at the next pilgrimage season a deputation came from Yathrib especially to meet the Prophet. --- These swore allegiance to him ---.  They then returned to Yathrib with a Muslim teacher in their company, and soon “There was not a house in Yathrib wherein there was not mention of the Prophet of Allah.”
In the following year at the time of pilgrimage, seventy three Muslims from Yathrib came to Mecca to vow allegiance to the Prophet and invite him to their city. --- End of quote.
--- (It is an interesting story how the Muslims from Mecca began to move, and when they knew that Muhammad was ready to leave, they laid in wait outside of his house to kill him, --- but he eluded them. --- This was called the Hijrah, 622 AD.)

Quote: At Al-Madinah, Muhammad made a solemn treaty with the Jewish tribes which secured to them equal rights of citizenship and religious liberty in return for their support of the new State.
But their (the Jewish leaders’) idea of a Prophet was one who would give them (the Jews) dominion, --- not one who made the Jews who followed him as brothers to every Arab who might happen to believe as they did. --- When they found that they could not use the Prophet for their own ends, they tried to shake his faith in his Mission, and to seduce his followers. --- They began to resent Muhammad’s coming.
--- Till then, the Qiblah (the place to which Muslims turn their faces in prayer) had been Jerusalem. --- The Jews imagined that the choice implied a leaning toward Judaism and that the Prophet stood in need of their instruction.
He received command to change the Qiblah from Jerusalem to the Kabah in Mecca. --- End of quote.

Notice in the following verse that Muhammad himself was turning his face upward to God to seek guidance, as in this verse from Surah 2:
144 We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a Qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

--- This offended the Jews to the point that they opposed Muhammad and his teaching. --- And God continued with instruction for the people in Surah 2:
177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards East or West; but it is righteousness - to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Apostles; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.


Placid

[placid]

Hi Yoel,

I had planned on adding this sooner but since my last post is still there, I would like to add a little --- to finish a defense of Muhammad’s Mission to destroy idolatry in Arabia, which God accomplished through him.    

From reading the Quran, I don’t see any prejudice on the part of Muhammad, though so many people today blame him for things that have happened since.

In his final speech at the Pilgrimage in year 10 of the Hijrah, shortly before his death, Mr Pickthall records this in his intro:
Quote: In the tenth year of the Hijrah he went to Mecca as a pilgrim for the last time --- his “pilgrimage of farewell,” --- it is called, when from Mount Arafat he preached to an enormous throng of pilgrims. He reminded them of all the duties that Al-Islam enjoined upon them, and that they would one day have to meet their Lord, who would judge each one of them according to his work.
At the end of the discourse he asked: “Have I not conveyed the message?” --- And from that great multitude of men --- who a few months or years before, had all been conscienceless idolaters, the shout went up: “O Allah! Yes.” --- The Prophet said: “O Allah! Be Thou Witness!” --- End of quote.

Muhammad brought a temporary peace and harmony. --- Had the followers continued in faithfulness to God, and honored Muhammad’s household as he instructed, the peace may have lasted. --- He had appointed Ali, his son-in-law as his successor, --- but it seemed that Ali was left to attend the Mosque and the spiritual life of believers, --- but the political leadership was taken over by Abu Bakr and Umar. There were rivals to their leadership and the rule that was given to Muhammad that said, “Defend, but don’t start hostilities,” was not followed and within 2 years they were fighting within the ranks of the Muslims. Abu Bakr was the first Caliph.

He ruled for the first 2 years, and tried to bring all of Saudi Arabia to obedient to Islam, though many Muslims were killed in the battles.
--- After Abu Bakr, Umar became the Caliph, and his ambitions were broader. --- While Muhammad showed no interest, nor was it the Lord’s instruction to go beyond theirown borders, --- Umar began to attack outside of Arabia. He invaded the peaceful countries across North Africa, and up into Israel to Jerusalem.
I believe he showed prejudice against the Jews, because as well as wanting to control Jerusalem, he also expelled all of the Jews from Arabia.
--- I believe this is where the prejudice started in the 7^th century. --- It is interesting that it was the Jews from Yathrib that invited Muhammad to come to Yathrib, in the first place. --- It was renamed Al-Madinah, meaning “The City.”  

I had tried to find out the fate of Abyssinia because that was the Christian country that Muhammad sent the new converts to very early in the ministry, when the Qureysh were persecuting them. --- There they were safe to worship One God as the Christians did.  
I could not find any info to know whether Umar invaded that country, thus showing his prejudice for others, or just for the Jews.

--- None of these things should have had any reflection on Muhammad reputation, but they had, did they not?


Placid

[Haydar Husayn]

shreek, on 30 August 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

The point is, or the accusation is, that 'if' Mohamed was a Prophet and God revealed to him directly or through angels, he out to 'know better'.
ya3ni he should have set a new standard to follow etc...because he was not an ordinary man.

And the standard should be whatever the modern secular world says? So nobody had a problem with the age of Aisha for 13 centuries, whether they were Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Atheist, or anything else, but now because we are all so 'enlightened', everyone suddenly sees that it's 'obviously wrong'. Masha'Allah at the sense of morality the modern secular world is able to install in its citizens that they can spot these things so easily when it eluded everyone else that came before them for so long.

Edited by Haydar Husayn, 18 December 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[placid]

To conclude the history of the nations that came from the sons of Noah

--- To recap and finalize the history from Post 284:
--- It is interesting to note that Noah and his family came off the Ark in Genesis 8, about 2350 BC. --- And the Genealogies of Ham, Shem, and Japheth are given in Genesis 10:
In 10:5 they are called Gentiles, and while names may be boring to read, many of them were familiar in Bible times.
Eber was a descendant of Shem, and most believe that the name ‘Hebrew’ came from Eber. --- Eber begat Peleg, Peleg begat Reu, Reu begat Serug, Serug begat Nehor, Nehor begat Terah, Terah begat Abram, (Abraham)
Abraham begat Ishmael and Isaac, --- about 1900 BC

Ishmael and his mother Hagar went out from Abraham --- and Ishmael later took an Egyptian wife, and they had 12 sons as God had promised.
If we allow about 50 years for these sons to mature and spread out on their own, this would be about 1850 BC, --- and Noah came off the Ark about 2350 BC, --- so there was about 500 years of population before the descendants of Ishmael.
It is interesting that the Gentile peoples from the sons of Noah settled in the North, both above and below the Black sea, some of the names are familiar in Russia, --- and they no doubt went West towards Europe. And South from Syria down to Shinar, Babylon, and into Iraq and Iran --- Canaan and his descendants went down into Canaan (Palestine) but they were idolatrous tribes and eventually God destroyed them for their wickedness, even down to Sodom and Gomorrah.

So Ishmael was led to settle in Saudi Arabia, and they established caravan routes from the North and East to Egypt. They became traders and merchants.
It seemed that God preserved this land for Ishmael as his inheritance, though at first it was considered desert, so it was perhaps bypassed. --- But the sons of Ishmael built towns and settlements, and the descendants of the 12 sons have been prosperous with their resources, especially with the oil reserves of today.
--- (So God did keep his promise, to make Ishmael a great Nation,) Genesis 17:20.

Now to check the other descendants of Abraham.
Isaac was given the land of Israel. --- It says this in Genesis 25:
Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
² And she bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.
³ Jokshan begot Sheba and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, Letushim, and Leummim.
⁴ And the sons of Midian were Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
⁵ And Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac.
⁶ But Abraham gave gifts to the sons of the concubines which Abraham had; and while he was still living he sent them eastward, away from Isaac his son, to the country of the east.

--- (The country to the East of Israel was Jordan. --- So we have the descendants of Ishmael in Saudi Arabia, --- the descendants of Isaac in Israel, and the sons of Abraham through Keturah in Jordan.)
--- There was one last descendant who was Abraham’s grandson Esau, the brother of Jacob, --- and he settled in Canaan (Israel), close to Jacob, --- and this is recorded in Genesis 36:
1 Now this is the genealogy of Esau, who is Edom.
2 Esau took his wives from the daughters of Canaan:

--- (And some years elapsed as Esau’s family multiplied, as well as his possessions, so he made a decision to move from Canaan.)
6 Then Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and all the persons of his household, his cattle and all his animals, and all his goods which he had gained in the land of Canaan, and went to a country away from the presence of his brother Jacob.
⁷ For their possessions were too great for them to dwell together, and the land where they were strangers could not support them because of their livestock.
⁸ So Esau dwelt in Mount Seir. Esau is Edom.

Mount Seir and the land of Edom is South in Jordan.
--- So the direct descendants of Abraham were originally in these countries, --- Ishmael in Saudi Arabia, --- Isaac and Jacob, in the land of Israel, --- Abraham’s sons, by his wife Keturah, in Jordan, --- Abraham’s grandson Esau, South in Jordan.

All of the other countries around were Gentile descendants of the sons of Noah.
--- It has always been of interest to me that Saudi Arabia and Jordan are the Muslim countries who are the least antagonistic to Israel.
Do you suppose that they recognize that only Saudi Arabia, Israel and Jordan were the lands of inheritance for the true ‘Children of Abraham?’


Placid

[safana]

Son of Placid, on 10 August 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

What does Thulfiqar mean?

its the name given to Imam Ali's sword