294 replies to this topic

[placid]

Hi ???, of Post 21,

Quote: The moral of the above verse is correct, however i get the feeling that you're using it against us. The two-edged sword that belonged to Ali - Son of Abu Talib  , is a sword that was and will only be used for justice. The owners that it was passed down to from Ali (including himself) were men that contained the most similar characteristics to Mohammed  , out of all mankind. They are his successors, protectors of the message of God The All-Just, and also a link to the Apostle himself. In conclusion: Thulfiqar (the two-edged sword) was only used in accordance to the word of God Almighty.


Response: --- Thanks for your comments.
As I said, I have great respect for Muhammad and I am sorry for the ‘animosity’ which has developed over the years. --- I want to express my views, but before I do, I want to respond to Shi concerning the ‘message’ of the Video.

However, the Word of God is the sharp two edged sword, the divider of truth and error, right and wrong, justice and injustice, --- and I welcome the opportunity to discuss with you and others --- on the basis that we accept the Torah, --- and the Patriarchs, Prophets and Kings, from both the OT and NT, which the Quran confirms in these verses in Surah 6:
82. Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided.
83. (God said): That is Our argument. We gave it unto Abraham against his folk. We raise unto degrees of wisdom whom We will. Lo! thy Lord is Wise, Aware.
84. And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good.
85. And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.
86. And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one (of them) did We prefer above (Our) creatures,
87. with some of their forefathers and their offspring and their brethren; and We chose them and guided them unto a Straight Path.

--- If these were all guided unto a Straight Path, then we need to be sure we are on it, --- or else, find it again, do we not?

I read once (on Shiachat) that Muhammad said, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”
--- On this basis then, we can deal with what is written and not add hadiths or commentaries. --- It was the Quran only that was revealed to Muhammad, was it not?.
My pattern has been to give the context of Scripture and not pick a line or a verse to prove a point, when it depends on what has been said either before, or after it.

As we have read above, --- certain Muslims have already said how Christians will respond, but these preconceived ideas have not been my experience.
--- As SOP said, --- before Islam became noteworthy for its terrorist activities, it was never discussed in Churches or in casual conversation.
The Christians worship God and follow Jesus. --- On the cross He said, “It is finished,” --- which meant the completion of God’s plan of salvation for those who will believe.

When you say you think ‘I will use the (sword) Word of God against you,’ --- I also welcome you to use the (sword) Word of God against our Christian faith.    
Another ground rule: ---
Please don’t be offended if I say something that you personally disagree with, as though I am attacking you.
I have verified different times that I believe the Scripture written in the Quran and I believe in Muhammad as the Prophet to his people.

I hope we can discuss later.


Placid

[ßÑíã]

placid, on 26 August 2011 - 08:58 AM, said:

Hi ???, of Post 21,

Quote: The moral of the above verse is correct, however i get the feeling that you're using it against us. The two-edged sword that belonged to Ali - Son of Abu Talib  , is a sword that was and will only be used for justice. The owners that it was passed down to from Ali (including himself) were men that contained the most similar characteristics to Mohammed  , out of all mankind. They are his successors, protectors of the message of God The All-Just, and also a link to the Apostle himself. In conclusion: Thulfiqar (the two-edged sword) was only used in accordance to the word of God Almighty.


Response: --- Thanks for your comments.
As I said, I have great respect for Muhammad and I am sorry for the ‘animosity’ which has developed over the years. --- I want to express my views, but before I do, I want to respond to Shi concerning the ‘message’ of the Video...

Placid

Your welcome, I admire your positive view of Mohammed . As well as your polite manners, and think that you can set a positive example in terms of that to many including myself. Your interest towards this topic is another thumbs up, if you carry on seeking the truth, God willing you will find it. I did not mean you are using the word of God against us, rather i meant that by you stating the mentioned verse, it seemed as though you are indicating that the sword of Ali , was not used for justice in accordance with the word of God. Brother shi3i4lyf will answer you soon as your question was directed to him, peace.

[placid]

Hi Shi,

Quote from Post 15:
My apologies, Placid. I wasn’t informed of any updates to this thread via notifications. I had to check myself.
As for the details in the video itself, I chose those specific scenes from the “Lantern” movie because I thought they were very symbolic.
• The hand of the Holy Prophet  touching fellow Muslims of various skin colours. This represents the unity of Muslims in Islam.
• Then to the scene of the Christian priests who were obviously (from the gesters and reactions), insulting the Holy Prophet. I chose this scene because it shows the Prophet in his actual nature. He reacts very calmly to insults and as you can see, it clearly shows him calming his companions as they were outraged.
• This whole scene was after the Holy Prophet  gave all proofs to the Christian Priests that he is infact sent from God. They refused to accept it. So, he challenged them to “Mubahala” – an act in which 2 opposing parties pray to God to send a curse on the opposition and show who is on the truth and who is not. This is done with the consent and insistence of both parties. The scene basically shows them (the priests) bragging about them winning the Mubahala.
P.s. The Mubahala event has been mentioned in the Holy Quran. Refer to the “Mubahala” Ayah.
4. As for the group of 5 coming to the challenge, it is none other than the Holy Prophet  , Imam Ali, his wife Fatima Zahra and their 2 sons Hassan and Hussain peace and blessings be upon them all. They were slowly approaching the scene where the challenge took place, put a mat on the floor and sat to begin the Mubahala. The priests became very reluctant as they saw the light of God in this blessed 5, and they were sure that they would be the one to be cursed. So, one of them runs towards the Ahlulbayt to ask them not to begin the Mubahala.
The Holy Prophet was never reluctant at receiving the message from God.


Response: --- Quite interesting, but all the good comments made about Muhammad were kind of lost in the ‘confrontational’ tone of the video.
Did the ‘Standard’ on the pole represent Muslims or Christians?
It appears as though there is great disagreement among the congregation and the black robed man with the long chain with a cross, and the large crucifix.
As the crucifix is a symbol of the old Roman Catholic Church, I have never known it to be used as a hand held wand.  Also, I have no knowledge of the crucifix being a popular symbol before the tenth century.
During Muhammad’s ministry, I have not read of confrontations between Christians and Muslims. --- All of the differences and battles were between the Arab idolaters who worshiped some 360 idols that occupied the House of Prayer, and who were represented by the Qureysh, the Meccan army, who were the self-appointed guardians of idolatry.
During Muhammad’s mission, the Jews first welcomed him as a Prophet, but expected that he would be harmonious with them, --- but when he declared the ‘brotherhood of believers,’ --- which meant that the lowly Arab believers were equal to the Jews, they took offence, and began to oppose his teaching.
In the year that Muhammad began to teach publicly that there was only one God, the idolaters persecuted the new converts to the point that Muhammad sent them to Abyssinia, a Christian country, where they could live in safety, and would be free to worship God only.
In Mr Pickthall’s translation it says that Surah 5 was revealed between the fifth and tenth year of the Hijrah, --- so, it was after the Muslim community was well established in Madinah and was constantly growing as the Arabs were denouncing their idolatry and becoming believers, --- that this was recorded:
82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84. "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86. But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.
--- In reading the Quran and finding that the Christians recognized what Muhammad taught the truth that they already believed, --- they could have harmony as in ‘the company of the righteous.’
Notice in 85: --- Their reward is heaven.
--- So, you see, my acceptance of Muhammad as a Prophet and the message of the Quran as Gabriel revealed it to Muhammad, --- is in harmony with the Gospel message.
I have recorded this from Shiachat some time ago, whch is not in the Quran, but is significant:
(Quote from Shiachat):
The Prophet (s,), in the last year of his life, is reported to have said:
"Verily, I am leaving with you two weighty things (thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my kindred, my household, for indeed, the two of them will never separate until they return to me by the Pond [of Kawthar on the Last Day]." (End of quote).

The first, of course, was the Quran, God’s message to the Arabs, as revealed to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. --- Ali knew and taught the Quran, and it seems that God gave him wisdom through the Holy Spirit to teach all the Scriptures. This gives evidence that they had the Torah (OT) and Gospel (NT) translated into Arabic before this. The Quran was written in Arabic and that would be Ali’s language, would it not? --- Ali said:
(Quote from Shiachat):
Verily, I will instruct the follower of the Torah, according to the Torah. I will instruct the followers of the Gospels according to the Gospels, until both the Torah and the Gospels are made to speak and bear witness to the following: Ali has spoken the truth and the verdict that he has given is according to what has been revealed in us. (End of quote).

--- And the second was, his household, or family that continued in service to God, His daughter Fatima, his son in law Ali and their two sons, Hassan and Hussain.
I have other quotes where Ali and others taught from the Book of Matthew.
This is all evidence that to begin with, there was no disharmony between Muslims and Christians.
Muhammad was called of God and was obedient in his Mission as were Moses and Jesus, so I speak of Muhammad as he is identified in his lifetime. --- His Mission was to destroy idolatry from among his people and bring them back to the worship of our One God, --- which he accomplished.
Though he became like the ‘Emperor of Arabia,’ he remained humble and obedient to God, --- and he commended his immediate family as being examples to follow.

Because of my concept of Muhammad and his relationship with Christians in the Quran, I find the video to be in very bad taste (and degrading to Christians) if it was intended to impress viewers on who, and what, the true Muhammad was.
(I am interested in the Mubahala event, and will also mention some of the negative things wrongly applied to Muhammad, later.)
    

Placid

[shreek]

ImAli, on 12 August 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

They like to throw around Aisha and exaggerate about how young she was. They like to take quite a few years off of her and say she was 3. They just love to throw that one out. Too bad most of them don't realize their grandmothers a few generations back were probably like 11 when they married and most likely had a husband quite older. You also never find them talk about the difference in age of Mary and Joseph, for those of you who don't know who Joseph is....he is the husband they believed Mary to have (they say Joseph was around 40 and Mary no older than 14)..........if you try to bring that up they will respond with, "Oh, it was just different times."

the reference to Aisha's age is more of a Sunna thing. because christian apologists to this 'paedophile' claim site Sahih Bukhari in this accusation.
as far as I know sahih bukhari is not a recognised hadith among Shia.
The age is either 6 or 9 not 3.
The point is, or the accusation is, that 'if' Mohamed was a Prophet and God revealed to him directly or through angels, he out to 'know better'.
ya3ni he should have set a new standard to follow etc...because he was not an ordinary man.

[placid]

Hi???,

Quote from Post 27
I did not mean you are using the word of God against us, rather i meant that by you stating the mentioned verse, it seemed as though you are indicating that the sword of Ali  , was not used for justice in accordance with the word of God.


Response: --- I have read some of what Imam Ali wrote and have been impressed by his detailed explanations. Some speakers try to cover topics or answer questions in as few words as possible, which may leave the hearer with more questions. --- Orators like Ali express themselves with wisdom and compassion.

Here is an example that I had recorded from Shiachat a few years ago.
I posted a longer article on another topic this morning, and this was included.


(I said)  Ali also uses the first verses from Matthew 6 to teach his son about giving:
(Quote from Shiachat):
Matt.6
[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Imam Ali explain this issue to his son Hassan :
Remember my son, that before you is a long and arduous journey (life). The journey is not only very long, exhausting and onerous but the route is mostly through dismal, dreary and deserted regions where you will be sadly in need of refreshing, renovating and enlivening aids and helps and you cannot dispense with such provisions as to keep you going and to maintain you till the end of the journey - the Day of Judgement.
But remember not to overload yourself (do not entrust yourself with so many obligations and duties that you cannot honourably fulfil them, or with such luxurious life as to be wicked and vicious).
(Distribute your wealth amongst the poor, destitute and the needy, help others to the best of your ability and be kind and sympathetic to human beings). Thus relieve yourself from the heavy responsibility and liability of submitting an account on the Day of Judgement of how you have made use of His Bounties (of health, wealth, power and position).
The only way out of it (life) is either in Paradise or in Hell. Therefore, it is wise to send your things there beforehand so that they (good deeds) which reach there before you, prearrange for the place of your stay before you reach there because after death there is no repentance and no possibility of coming back to this world to undo the wrong done by you. (End of quote).

--- This is the message of love and compassion that Jesus taught, so, Ali was “A Preacher of Righteousness,” and certainly a seeker of Justice.
As Jesus taught, “Love God and love your neighbor as yourself,” --- Ali expresses it in many words, --- and give a glimpse of ‘what the world could be like.’


Placid

[ßÑíã]

shreek, on 30 August 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

the reference to Aisha's age is more of a Sunna thing. because christian apologists to this 'paedophile' claim site Sahih Bukhari in this accusation.
as far as I know sahih bukhari is not a recognised hadith among Shia.
The age is either 6 or 9 not 3.
The point is, or the accusation is, that 'if' Mohamed was a Prophet and God revealed to him directly or through angels, he out to 'know better'.
ya3ni he should have set a new standard to follow etc...because he was not an ordinary man.

Well "ya3ni" the sunni school of thought abuse the image of our holy prophet , and there "sahih" books are used as references against him, they go crazy when the western world insults him, yet they disregard whats written about him in their very own books. The majority of their hadith books are unreliable, so i suggest you do not use their proven false references to support your pathetic argument. Not an ordinary man? listen mr shrek, you either want to seek knowledge from sc or you don't, but either way do not speak of Mohammed with a dirty tongue, because indeed you are the unordinary man however you just do not realise it. You are just another infidel that goes with the crowd insulting what you do not understand. He set standards that dominated and still are dominating all other standards in regards to piety and a righteous way of life. Watch the video in the first post of this topic in order to get a taste of how the western world and some non-believers positively view this most pious man you call "not ordinary", indeed even these non-believers shut down your stance.

[ßÑíã]

placid, on 30 August 2011 - 07:27 AM, said:

Hi???,

Quote from Post 27
I did not mean you are using the word of God against us, rather i meant that by you stating the mentioned verse, it seemed as though you are indicating that the sword of Ali  , was not used for justice in accordance with the word of God.


Response: --- I have read some of what Imam Ali wrote and have been impressed by his detailed explanations. Some speakers try to cover topics or answer questions in as few words as possible, which may leave the hearer with more questions. --- Orators like Ali express themselves with wisdom and compassion.

Here is an example that I had recorded from Shiachat a few years ago.
I posted a longer article on another topic this morning, and this was included.


(I said)  Ali also uses the first verses from Matthew 6 to teach his son about giving:
(Quote from Shiachat):
Matt.6
[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Imam Ali explain this issue to his son Hassan :
Remember my son, that before you is a long and arduous journey (life). The journey is not only very long, exhausting and onerous but the route is mostly through dismal, dreary and deserted regions where you will be sadly in need of refreshing, renovating and enlivening aids and helps and you cannot dispense with such provisions as to keep you going and to maintain you till the end of the journey - the Day of Judgement.
But remember not to overload yourself (do not entrust yourself with so many obligations and duties that you cannot honourably fulfil them, or with such luxurious life as to be wicked and vicious).
(Distribute your wealth amongst the poor, destitute and the needy, help others to the best of your ability and be kind and sympathetic to human beings). Thus relieve yourself from the heavy responsibility and liability of submitting an account on the Day of Judgement of how you have made use of His Bounties (of health, wealth, power and position).
The only way out of it (life) is either in Paradise or in Hell. Therefore, it is wise to send your things there beforehand so that they (good deeds) which reach there before you, prearrange for the place of your stay before you reach there because after death there is no repentance and no possibility of coming back to this world to undo the wrong done by you. (End of quote).

--- This is the message of love and compassion that Jesus taught, so, Ali was “A Preacher of Righteousness,” and certainly a seeker of Justice.
As Jesus taught, “Love God and love your neighbor as yourself,” --- Ali expresses it in many words, --- and give a glimpse of ‘what the world could be like.’


Placid

Interesting indeed, although the context of the verses in mathew 6 is difficult to understand, i can still see where you are coming from. There is no doubt that both Ali and Jesus abided by justice.

[ßÑíã]

I challenge anyone to truely think negatively about Mohammed peace be upon him & his family after watching this brief biography of his life. The disappointing thing is that most people have heard the false accusations about him, yet hardly any have heard the truth about him. the link is:



This is not only beneficial to non-muslims, but also muslims, to remind us of what a great man our leader is.

[orthodox1234]

Hi everyone, its important to place the Christian view of Muhammad in light of the Christian gospel. For the New Testament writers the *necessary* distinction b/w Christian religion and other religions (specifically Judaism at that time) was that God has words of grace, and words of law. God gives us law, and he gives us gospel. For us Christians, the necessary component that is found in our scriptures is the free grace of God in the holy gospel, the announcement by God for the Christian Church that God has put us to death in his Son, for His sake and our justification. If any prophet, pope, or movement denies this, they are in disagreement with the gospel and are necessarily teaching another gospel (which is no gospel at all).
The writings of the apostles are filled w/commands, imperatives of God, or demands but they are also filled with indicatives, they tell us what is actually going on, and what God demands of us. So, for example we are told we are depraved, and evil and that we have no desire to meet the demands of God but that God demands perfect obedience from us to be justified (law) and then we are told that Christ was perfect, and sinless and his desire was to fulfill the commands of His father and He fulfilled them perfectly for us (gospel). If any religious group disagrees w/gospel, then we should break ways...there is no hope outside of being found in Jesus Christ ...'not having a righteousness of my own that comes through the law, but that which comes by faith' ..

And since Islam does disagree along with its Prophet, well with all due respect, we disagree and can view him no different than teaching another gospel, one that we would view as a false gospel. As for his person, I don't know, as for his theology if Muslims are reliable reflections of it, its terrible. Its law, and only law, what we need to hear is the forgivesness of sins not on the basis of our works, but on the basis of another who has worked perfectly from the beginning. Who lived, and died in my place. He lived for me, and died for me.

Hopefully this helps, my point was to make the distinction b/w Islam and Christianity on the holy gospel.

Edited by orthodox1234, 30 August 2011 - 09:28 PM.

[ßÑíã]

orthodox1234, on 30 August 2011 - 09:25 PM, said:

Hi everyone, its important to place the Christian view of Muhammad in light of the Christian gospel. For the New Testament writers the *necessary* distinction b/w Christian religion and other religions (specifically Judaism at that time) was that God has words of grace, and words of law. God gives us law, and he gives us gospel. For us Christians, the necessary component that is found in our scriptures is the free grace of God in the holy gospel, the announcement by God for the Christian Church that God has put us to death in his Son, for His sake and our justification. If any prophet, pope, or movement denies this, they are in disagreement with the gospel and are necessarily teaching another gospel (which is no gospel at all).
The writings of the apostles are filled w/commands, imperatives of God, or demands but they are also filled with indicatives, they tell us what is actually going on, and what God demands of us. So, for example we are told we are depraved, and evil and that we have no desire to meet the demands of God but that God demands perfect obedience from us to be justified (law) and then we are told that Christ was perfect, and sinless and his desire was to fulfill the commands of His father and He fulfilled them perfectly for us (gospel). If any religious group disagrees w/gospel, then we should break ways...there is no hope outside of being found in Jesus Christ ...'not having a righteousness of my own that comes through the law, but that which comes by faith' ..

And since Islam does disagree along with its Prophet, well with all due respect, we disagree and can view him no different than teaching another gospel, one that we would view as a false gospel. As for his person, I don't know, as for his theology if Muslims are reliable reflections of it, its terrible. Its law, and only law, what we need to hear is the forgivesness of sins not on the basis of our works, but on the basis of another who has worked perfectly from the beginning. Who lived, and died in my place. He lived for me, and died for me.

Hopefully this helps, my point was to make the distinction b/w Islam and Christianity on the holy gospel.

Hello...

We in Islam believe that the true holy gospel is one of the divine books revealed by God The All-Just to Prophet Jesus , and we believe it obtained the same morals and principle as the Holy Qur'an. The word Islam translated in english means submission, and this is the true message within the gospel, the message that Jesus preached. Amongst the devine books revealed through chosen prophets, The Qur'an was the final. Jesus and Mohammed (pbut) both preached that God is one in meaning, not in name, i do not know where you got your conclusion of muslims do not believe in the holy gospel from.

And by the way, we do not believe that Jesus died for our sins, or is the son of god, or is even god. The true gospel we believe in contains none of the said, whereas the gospel you believe in obviously contains this, making it different to ours.

True muslims are reliable reflections of the theology of Prophet Mohammed , the muslims you have come across that made you view it as terrible are most probably muslims living a life totally different to the life Mohammed taught us to live, don't be stereotype, research the true way of life he encouraged and inspired, and you will see that his theology is far from terrible. I posted a brief video of his biography in my previous post, please watch it before you judge him.

Edited by ßÑíã, 30 August 2011 - 11:37 PM.

[orthodox1234]

كريم, on 30 August 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:

Hello...

We in Islam believe that the true holy gospel is one of the divine books revealed by God The All-Just to Prophet Jesus , and we believe it obtained the same morals and principle as the Holy Qur'an. The word Islam translated in english means submission, and this is the true message within the gospel, the message that Jesus preached. Amongst the devine books revealed through chosen prophets, The Qur'an was the final. Jesus and Mohammed (pbut) both preached that God is one in meaning, not in name, i do not know where you got your conclusion of muslims do not believe in the holy gospel from.

True muslims are reliable reflections of the theology of Prophet Mohammed , the muslims you have come across that made you view it as terrible are most probably muslims living a life totally different to the life Mohammed taught us to live, don't be stereotype, research the true way of life he encouraged and inspired, and you will see that his theology is far from terrible. I posted a brief video of his biography in my previous post, please watch it before you judge him.

Hi,
Thanks for the response, I'm hoping you don't get offended and are mature enough to recognize that I'm a Christian, because I hold to a specifically Christian theology one that cannot be compromised or mixed with Islamic, or Judaic theology for that matter. That being said, I want to clarify;

The issue at the heart of the matter is that Islam, and Muhammad both taught a theology regarding salvation that is in clear contradiction to what God has revealed in scripture; as I said before, as for his life I don't know, I am not interested in studying his life, no more than Buddha or Zoroaster, as for his theology if Muslims are in what I've been told true reflections of what he taught then as I understand it, Islamic theology holds to an understanding of salvation by grace+works. Whereas for Christians, who believe, and confesss the doctrines as expressed in the reformation confessions and the ancient creeds we hold not only to a Trinitarian faith, but a Trinitarian salvation, and a monergistic salvation scheme. That is, it is God alone who saves none of my works (good or bad) can save me, both make me damnable, but none can make me saveable. I'm a Christian, because God in Christ did by his sovereign will save me by living the pious life I can't live, and earning salvation for me, and dying in for me. Counter to the intuition of many religious groups, the gospel of free grace in Christ is foreign, unknowable and 'foolishness to those who are perishing' its not only foolish because people can't understand how one man can die for many, but its foolish because God caught us by surprise. We're wired to be work-driven people, that is how God made us, but even our good works as the holy prophet Isaiah 'are filthy rags' (as in menstrual rags). Unlike Islam, Christianity as revealed in both the Old and New Testament insists on the total depravity of the human nature, Islam generally holds to a view that was condemned by the ancient councils of the church regarding the nature of man; pelagianism.

[placid]

Hi Shi,

I have a high opinion of Muhammad because in his intro to his translation, Mr Pickthall said:
Quote: As a young boy he travelled with his uncle in the merchants’ caravans to Syria, and some years afterwards made the same journey in the service of a wealthy widow named Khadijah. So faithfully did he transact the widow’s business, and so excellent was the report of his behavior which she received from her old servant that accompanied him, that she soon afterwards married her young agent; and the marriage proved a very happy one, though she was fifteen years older than he was. --- This marriage gave him rank among the notables of Mecca, while his conduct earned for him the surname, Al-Amin, the “trustworthy.” --- End of quote.

He was a man of principles and integrity in the midst of an idolatrous society, similar to Abraham, whose father was an idolater.
God called Muhammad through a vision of the angel Gabriel --- and Mr Pickthall records:
Quote: He remained thus a long while till at length the angel vanished, when he returned in great distress of mind to his wife Khadijah. She did her best to reassure him, saying that his conduct had been such that Allah would not let a harmful spirit come to him and that it was her hope that he was to become the Prophet of his people. --- On their return to Mecca she took him to her cousin Waraqa ibn Naufal, a very old man, “who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians,” who declared his belief that the heavenly messenger who came to Moses of old, had come to Muhammad, and that he was chosen as the Prophet of his people. --- End of quote.

NOTE: --- You have to understand that, for me, --- reading this as a Christian, I recognized that the cousin, “who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians,” --- would be a Christian, because Jews did not accept the Christian Scriptures, or the teaching of the NT. --- Furthermore, Khadijah would have been under the teaching of her aged cousin, because he was the one that she took Muhammad to for confirmation of his call to be a Prophet to his people
--- Also, Mr Pickthall records this:
Quote: The early biographers tell how his wife Khadijah “tried the spirit” that came to him, ‘and proved it to be good.’ --- End of quote.

NOTE: --- This is the Christian test that is given in 1 John 4, where believers are to pray and test the spirits:
1.  Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

--- You may be quick to reject this, --- but, at the same time, you are asking “What non-Muslims think of Muhammad?” --- So, I welcome the privilege of saying what I have learned of the Prophet Muhammad.
Now I will ask you about this: --- There was no call for Muhammad to start a new religion, was there? --- But to bring the people out of idolatry, back to the worship of the God of Abraham, is that not right?
Al-Islam means ‘the Surrender,’ ---or ‘Submission,’ does it not?
And a ‘Muslim’ is ‘a Surrendered one,’ --- is that not right?

It is interesting that in Surah 3, after it speaks of the teaching and healing ministry of Jesus in 49, it goes on to say:
50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle; then write us down among those who bear witness."

Pickthall: 52. But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).
53. Our Lord (God)! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him (Jesus) whom Thou hast sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth).

You see, as the disciples were called Muslims because they followed Jesus and were on ‘the Way that is straight,’ --- then we, too, who follow Jesus and the faith of the Apostles, are on ‘the Way that is straight.’ --- are we not?

I have the highest regard for Muhammad because he was called of God to fulfill a Mission, which he did, in destroying idolatry from Arabia.
--- But what was revealed to him by the angel Gabriel was the same as Gabriel, himself, initiated in the Gospels, --- so Muhammad believed the Gospel Message.

Most Christians reject Islam for what it has become, but they are not aware, as most Muslims are not aware, that Muhammad followed and taught Christian principles.
The birth of John the Baptist and the virgin birth of Jesus are recorded in Surahs 3 and 19. The miracle and healing ministry of Jesus is recorded twice.
Twice Jesus said, “I have come as a Sign unto you, therefore, do your duty to God and obey Me,
God is My Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.”

--- I have asked different times, “Can there be a straighter Way?”

When I talk to Christians I suggest that they get a recognized copy of the Quran, and read it through to know what it says.

--- A lawyer would not go to court before he read the law books, would he?
--- Neither should a Muslim criticize the New Testament until they have read it.
--- Nor should a Christian condemn the Quran until they have read it.

(I don’t deny the Trinitatians their beliefs, --- nor the Muslims what they have been taught, but, when I am asked, I try to answer with Scripture from both the Bible and the Quran.)
--- And the Quran confirms the former Scriptures, Surah 3:3, so therefore Gabriel, in his revelations to Muhammad, declares the former Scriptures to be true.

The problem is not with Muhammad or the Quran in the division between Christians and Muslims, but with Satan, who has mislead those who are not guided by God’s Holy Spirit.


Placid

Edited by placid, 31 August 2011 - 10:37 AM.

[ßÑíã]

placid, on 31 August 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

Hi Shi,

I have a high opinion of Muhammad because in his intro to his translation, Mr Pickthall said:
Quote: As a young boy he travelled with his uncle in the merchants’ caravans to Syria, and some years afterwards made the same journey in the service of a wealthy widow named Khadijah. So faithfully did he transact the widow’s business, and so excellent was the report of his behavior which she received from her old servant that accompanied him, that she soon afterwards married her young agent; and the marriage proved a very happy one, though she was fifteen years older than he was. --- This marriage gave him rank among the notables of Mecca, while his conduct earned for him the surname, Al-Amin, the “trustworthy.” --- End of quote.

He was a man of principles and integrity in the midst of an idolatrous society, similar to Abraham, whose father was an idolater.
God called Muhammad through a vision of the angel Gabriel --- and Mr Pickthall records:
Quote: He remained thus a long while till at length the angel vanished, when he returned in great distress of mind to his wife Khadijah. She did her best to reassure him, saying that his conduct had been such that Allah would not let a harmful spirit come to him and that it was her hope that he was to become the Prophet of his people. --- On their return to Mecca she took him to her cousin Waraqa ibn Naufal, a very old man, “who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians,” who declared his belief that the heavenly messenger who came to Moses of old, had come to Muhammad, and that he was chosen as the Prophet of his people. --- End of quote.

NOTE: --- You have to understand that, for me, --- reading this as a Christian, I recognized that the cousin, “who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians,” --- would be a Christian, because Jews did not accept the Christian Scriptures, or the teaching of the NT. --- Furthermore, Khadijah would have been under the teaching of her aged cousin, because he was the one that she took Muhammad to for confirmation of his call to be a Prophet to his people
--- Also, Mr Pickthall records this:
Quote: The early biographers tell how his wife Khadijah “tried the spirit” that came to him, ‘and proved it to be good.’ --- End of quote.

NOTE: --- This is the Christian test that is given in 1 John 4, where believers are to pray and test the spirits:
1.  Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

--- You may be quick to reject this, --- but, at the same time, you are asking “What non-Muslims think of Muhammad?” --- So, I welcome the privilege of saying what I have learned of the Prophet Muhammad.
Now I will ask you about this: --- There was no call for Muhammad to start a new religion, was there? --- But to bring the people out of idolatry, back to the worship of the God of Abraham, is that not right?
Al-Islam means ‘the Surrender,’ ---or ‘Submission,’ does it not?
And a ‘Muslim’ is ‘a Surrendered one,’ --- is that not right?

It is interesting that in Surah 3, after it speaks of the teaching and healing ministry of Jesus in 49, it goes on to say:
50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle; then write us down among those who bear witness."

Pickthall: 52. But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).
53. Our Lord (God)! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him (Jesus) whom Thou hast sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth).

You see, as the disciples were called Muslims because they followed Jesus and were on ‘the Way that is straight,’ --- then we, too, who follow Jesus and the faith of the Apostles, are on ‘the Way that is straight.’ --- are we not?

I have the highest regard for Muhammad because he was called of God to fulfill a Mission, which he did, in destroying idolatry from Arabia.
--- But what was revealed to him by the angel Gabriel was the same as Gabriel, himself, initiated in the Gospels, --- so Muhammad believed the Gospel Message.

Most Christians reject Islam for what it has become, but they are not aware, as most Muslims are not aware, that Muhammad followed and taught Christian principles.
The birth of John the Baptist and the virgin birth of Jesus are recorded in Surahs 3 and 19. The miracle and healing ministry of Jesus is recorded twice.
Twice Jesus said, “I have come as a Sign unto you, therefore, do your duty to God and obey Me,
God is My Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.”

--- I have asked different times, “Can there be a straighter Way?”

When I talk to Christians I suggest that they get a recognized copy of the Quran, and read it through to know what it says.

--- A lawyer would not go to court before he read the law books, would he?
--- Neither should a Muslim criticize the New Testament until they have read it.
--- Nor should a Christian condemn the Quran until they have read it.

(I don’t deny the Trinitatians their beliefs, --- nor the Muslims what they have been taught, but, when I am asked, I try to answer with Scripture from both the Bible and the Quran.)
--- And the Quran confirms the former Scriptures, Surah 3:3, so therefore Gabriel, in his revelations to Muhammad, declares the former Scriptures to be true.

The problem is not with Muhammad or the Quran in the division between Christians and Muslims, but with Satan, who has mislead those who are not guided by God’s Holy Spirit.


Placid

Impressive, i see you've done your research. Now lets analyse, the principle of christianity is belief in the trinity: the father, son and holy spirit, whereas Islam is belief in One God and to set up partners with him is a grave sin. Although Christianity contains similar morals to Islam in terms of forbidding stealing, adultery etc this does not mean that these morals originated from the christian religion. I can understand where you are coming from in terms of both christianity and islam agree upon following jesus and agreeing that it is the straight path, the idea is the same, but the principle is different; in terms of Mohammed preaching the Qur'an; which contains verses that tell the people of Israel to do their duty to God The All-Just by obeying Jesus , this is indeed the straight path as said, however this does not mean Mohammed (s) taught christian principles, because Islam teaches us to accept Jesus as our apostle and righteous leader, whereas in Christianity he is set up as a partner with god; viewed as a god himself, and also the son of god, it's not the same, do you see where i am coming fom?

You speak of the Gospel as if it is not viewed as one of the true former scriptures of God in Islam, indeed it was, so was the Torah, but the argument lays in how you go about in identifying these scriptures. Islam is a religion that already existed before the final Apostle started his mission, it was a religion that every single Apostle of God including Jesus abided by, also we believe the Torah, Gospel and the Qur'an all contain the same principle in belief of submission to only One God, and the true scriptures do not diffrentiate in this principle. Remember, Islam is not only a religion, but also a way of life.

Companion from another faith, i have a question i need you to answer:

1. What is the Christian view of the difference between the Bible & Gospel? or is the Bible considered the Gospel and vice versa?

Again, i admire your open-mindedness, peace.

Edited by ßÑíã, 31 August 2011 - 04:18 PM.

[placid]

Hi ???,

I want to relate back to Posts 30 and 32:
(I will respond to your newest Post later.)

I had copied the following from Shiachat some time ago, --- and it shows that Ali was a teacher to the Jews and the Christians as well as to the Muslims, in order to show that what God was revealing through Gabriel was from God, --- and that the revelations verified or confirmed the former Scriptures. --- Ali had said:
(Quote from Shiachat):
Verily, I will instruct the follower of the Torah, according to the Torah. I will instruct the followers of the Gospels according to the Gospels, until both the Torah and the Gospels are made to speak and bear witness to the following: Ali has spoken the truth and the verdict that he has given is according to what has been revealed in us. (End of quote).

--- This verifies that the Bible had been translated into Arabic before this so that Ali would have learned and known the Scriptures in his own language, well enough to make such a statement.

Also, in teaching his son from the Book of Matthew, it verifies that he was teaching Christian principles from the ‘Sayings of Jesus.’
I see where Matthew 6:1-4 by itself may not be as significant as when it is read in the context of chapters 5, 6, and 7.
--- Jesus had said this in 5:
20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”
The religious leaders, the Pharisees, were no longer teaching the “Holiness of God,” but were making themselves the center of their religion. --- They wanted to show their benevolence by announcing their generosity, or by doing their good deeds in the sight of men.
6:2 --- Jesus said, “If you give charitable gifts or do good works to be seen of men, --- and they see you do it, then that is your reward,” --- because they were seeking the praise of men, not the praise of God.
3. --- ‘But when you do a charitable deed, do it secretly and silently, as though the hand that was doing the deed was the only hand that knew it was being done.’
4.--- ‘Therefore, what is done in service to God, secretly, --- will be rewarded openly in blessings from Him.’

Here are the verses from Matthew 6 in a newer version:
1 “Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.

--- The teaching of Ali to his son is: --- That believers should live to serve God, and not be men pleasers, or self-seeking. --- Because, in this life, we should do what good we can for others, while we have opportunity, because we will not pass this way again.

--- And here it is again from Post 30:
Quote: Imam Ali explain this issue to his son Hassan :
Remember my son, that before you is a long and arduous journey (life). The journey is not only very long, exhausting and onerous but the route is mostly through dismal, dreary and deserted regions where you will be sadly in need of refreshing, renovating and enlivening aids and helps and you cannot dispense with such provisions as to keep you going and to maintain you till the end of the journey - the Day of Judgement.
But remember not to overload yourself (do not entrust yourself with so many obligations and duties that you cannot honourably fulfil them, or with such luxurious life as to be wicked and vicious).
(Distribute your wealth amongst the poor, destitute and the needy, help others to the best of your ability and be kind and sympathetic to human beings). Thus relieve yourself from the heavy responsibility and liability of submitting an account on the Day of Judgement of how you have made use of His Bounties (of health, wealth, power and position).
The only way out of it (life) is either in Paradise or in Hell. Therefore, it is wise to send your things there beforehand so that they (good deeds) which reach there before you, prearrange for the place of your stay before you reach there because after death there is no repentance and no possibility of coming back to this world to undo the wrong done by you. (End of quote).


Placid

[placid]

Hi ???,

Quote from Post 38:
The principle of Christianity is belief in the trinity: the father, son and holy spirit, whereas Islam is belief in One God and to set up partners with him is a grave
sin.

Response: --- Let’s look first at our enemy, Satan/Iblis, as written in Surah 7:
Pickthall: 16. He said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path.
17. Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right hands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee).
Yusuf Ali: 16. He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17. "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
--- So Satan/Iblis was banished from the presence of God. --- And:
18. He (God) said: Go forth from hence, degraded, banished. As for such of them as follow thee, surely I will fill hell with all of you.
19. (God said) "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
--- Then Satan, the deceiver, set up the strategy he would use against those on the Right Path.
Notice how he dealt with Adam and Eve in the next verses.
20. Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
21. And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
23. They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
24. (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."
25. He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
26. O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!
27. O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.
--- Now whether you want to receive it or not, this is eferred to as ‘the original sin.’ --- (However Satan, through pride and self-exaltation committed the first sin before this.)

While Muslims like to downplay this sin of disobedience as though it was trivial, it changed the pattern of life from righteousness with God where they would have dwelt forever, --- to losing their righteousness and being separated from God, even as Satan was.
They admitted guilt and asked God’s forgiveness.

--- Because we are all descendants of the ‘fallen’ race of Adam (notice verse 22, ‘So by deceit he brought about their fall.’)
--- Do you think that Satan is not the enemy of us all?
When we realize that Satan is our common enemy and not one another, we can begin to address the problem of division.
The first principle or concept is not trinity (which I will deal with later), --- but the main point of division is that Jesus came as the Savior/messiah to redeem us from sin, and by our repentance and accepting of  God’s provision, we can be ‘saved’ and restored to a position of righteousness with God.

Muslims downplay the ‘sin factor’ and have been taught that by obedience to a system of prayer and ‘good works’ they can save themselves, is that not right?

This is Satan’s deception, because, if they believe that they are masters of their own destiny, --- then the blood sacrifices of the OT are meaningless, and the teaching of the final sacrifice for sin, by Jesus dying on the cross and rising again, to defeat sin, Satan and death, is of no importance, --- or ‘foolishness,’ is that not right?
--- So, this sets up a stumbling block because it says in 1 Cor 1:
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

So here is the present dilemma, --- the Muslims say that the preaching of Jesus as a sacrifice for sin is foolish, --- so only His moral teaching is of value.  
--- And the Christians say that because the Muslims do not believe in Jesus, and God’s power to save us, --- they are those who are perishing.
--- Satan is our enemy
Let’s consider some of our misunderstandings in amiable discussion.
(Like the faulty doctrine of trinity.)

Placid

[ImAli]

This link  http://www.shiachat....jinns-any-info/ post # 14 by INFIDELKAFIR

[aladdin]

This thread is so full of misinformation, don't know where to start.

@ Karim, when Placid says word or Word of God, by this he means Jesus and not scripture.

@ shreek, Bukhari was written about 250 years after the death of Mohammad. Shias were killed if they questioned Bukhari. Today, Sunni themselves are questioning Bukhari which is good and according to Sunni, Aisha was 19 when Mohammad married her.

According to Shia, she was 24 and a divorcee. Arabs married at a very young age, however Mohammad first marriage was at the age 25, to a double widow who 40 years old. He remained married only to her for 27 years until the age of 52, when she died in capavitity and out of hunger. Thus, only one wife until Mohammad was 52 years old.

From the age of 52 until the age of 62 when Mohammad died, in these ten years he married 12 wives. Muslims are allowed 4 four wives at a time, but he was allowed as many as he wanted. He did this to consolidate varring tribes into Islam.

Aisha was the divorcee daughter of the first caliph abu Bakr and Hafsa was the divorcee daughter of the second caliph. If you want to see what does the Quran says about these two wives, then read the complete chapter 66 of the Holy Quran.

@ Karim again, the Bible consists of two parts. Part one which the Christian call, Old Testament is the Jewish book. The Jews shudder at the taught of their book being called, Old Testament. They don't have Old and New Testament. The Jews call it, TaNaKh (Torah, Naviim - Prophets, Ketviim - Books).

Jesus kept accusing that the scribes have corrupted the TaNaKh, and the scribes are writing the books with their hands. In the end, long after the death of Jesus, the Christians accepted the complete TaNaKh as true word of God, setting aside Jesus accusation of corruption.

According to Christians it proved the Divinity of Jesus. Aslo, when they translated the TaNaKh to Old Testament, they intentionally mistranslated it to further prove Jesus Divinity. Just two examples are "virgin giving birth" and Lucifer which is not a Hebrew name.

The second part of the Bible is called, New Testament. It is sometimes also called the Gospels of Jesus.

[placid]

Hi Aladdin,

Quote: This thread is so full of misinformation, don't know where to start.
@ Karim, when Placid says word or Word of God, by this he means Jesus and not scripture.

CONTRADICTION: --- When Word is written with a capital W in either the NT or the Quran, it refers to the Logos, --- which is the ‘Creative power’ of God.'
Yusuf Ali: 3:45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
Hilali Khan: 3:45. (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."
--- The Word (Logos) that was with God from the beginning was sent to Earth to indwell the human body of Jesus. --- This is why Jesus had no human Father, but had a human body from Mary, and a divine Spirit from God.

Quote: --- however Mohammad first marriage was at the age 25, to a double widow who 40 years old. He remained married only to her for 27 years until the age of 52, when she died in capavitity and out of hunger. Thus, only one wife until Mohammad was 52 years old.

CONTRADICTION: --- According to Muslim views on Wikipedia:
Ibn Kathir, the Islamic scholar and commentator on the Qur'an, writes in his book Wives of the Prophet Muhammad[13]:
Khadijah had been the first to publicly accept Muhammad as the Messenger of Allah, and she had never stopped doing all she could to help him. Love and mercy had grown between them, increasing in quality and depth as the years passed by, and not even death could take this love away. The Prophet Muhammad never stopped loving Khadijah, and although he married several more wives in later years and loved them all, it is clear that Khadijah always had a special place in his heart. Indeed whenever Aisha, his third wife, heard the Prophet speak of Khadijah, or saw him sending food to Khadijah's old friends and relatives, she could not help feeling jealous of her, because of the love that the Prophet still had for her.
Once Aisha asked him if Khadijah had been the only woman worthy of his love. The Prophet replied: "She believed in me when no one else did; she accepted Islam when people rejected me; and she helped and comforted me when there was no one else to lend me a helping hand." It had been related by Abu Hurairah that on one occasion, when Khadijah was still alive, Jibril came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and said, "O Messenger of Allah, Khadijah is just coming with a bowl of soup (or food or drink) for you. When she comes to you, give her greetings of peace from her Lord and from me, and give her the good news of a palace of jewels in the Garden, where there will be neither any noise nor any tiredness." After the Prophet's uncle, Abu Talib, and his first wife, Khadijah, had both died in the same year, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his small community of believers endured a time of great hardship and persecution at the hands of the Quraish. Indeed the Prophet, who was now fifty years old, name this year 'the Year of Sorrow.'
--- (I like to think more kindly of the wealthy Khadijah, who was always generous to her relatives and friends and who would not be abandoned by her husband.)

Quote: @ Karim again, the Bible consists of two parts. Part one which the Christian call, Old Testament is the Jewish book. The Jews shudder at the taught of their book being called, Old Testament. They don't have Old and New Testament. The Jews call it, TaNaKh (Torah, Naviim - Prophets, Ketviim - Books).

CONTRADICTION: --- The word ‘Testament ‘means ‘covenant,’ or ‘agreement.’
It is a solemn oath, to be followed, --- like ‘A Last Will and Testament.’
God made a COVENANT with the Children of Israel saying, “I will be your God, and you will be My people.”
God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, the Criterion of right and wrong, and many other instructions, to ‘fashion’ the Children of Israel to be an example to the nations around, so that other nations would be brought to faith and righteousness through them.
Surah 2:63. And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear God."
64. But ye turned back thereafter: Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of God to you, ye had surely been among the lost.
65. And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath.
4:154. And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant.
155. (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God; that they slew the Apostle in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word; We need no more)"; - Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe; -

Notice: --- This was God’s response to their disobedience and breaking the Covenant (Testament) between God and the Children of Israel
Jeremiah 31: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Notice: --- In the Book to the Hebrews, ch 8, it says this:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Notice again: --- The old Covenant, Testament, Agreement, --- was replaced by the New Covenant, Testament, Agreement, --- called The New Testament.

It began with John the Baptist and Jesus (Surah 19), and Jesus taught that we must be converted and be ‘Born Again,” or “Born Spiritually” in order to understand Spiritual things. God then gives His Holy Spirit to dwell in the mind and heart of the believer, instilling His laws of righteousness within.
God gives His guidance and wisdom as required. --- This is the New Covenant

Surah 3:50. (Jesus said) "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
--- Those who are guided by the Holy Spirit of God are on this Way that is straight.


Placid

Edited by placid, 06 September 2011 - 09:20 AM.

[aladdin]

There is no such thing as Logos or Bogus in Judaism. According to Christians, "Word or word" means Jesus.

For Jews there is no such thing as Old Testament or New Testament, which is Old Covenant or New Covenant, this is figment of imagination of Christians and it has nothing to do with Judaism.

Jew have only one book and it is called, TaNaKh and not Old Testament and/or Old Covenant (Agreement, and whatever you want to call it.). This is all figment of imagination of Christians and it has nothing to do with Judaism.

They have books of hadiths like Muslims do and it called, Talmud. Each great Rabbi has his own Talmud, from the times of Moses and it passed down to his disciples.

The above has nothing to do with Islam, Aisha and/or Khadijah.

Edited by aladdin, 06 September 2011 - 10:06 AM.

[ßÑíã]

@ Aladdin: Jazakallah, i agree this thread got a bit messy, you saved the day lol

@ Placid: When i say the word of God, i mean literally the word of God The All-Just in the true scriptures, not the word of Jesus, i think there has been a misunderstanding, but now its cleared up.

[aladdin]

placid, on 06 September 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

Hi Aladdin,

Quote: This thread is so full of misinformation, don't know where to start.
@ Karim, when Placid says word or Word of God, by this he means Jesus and not scripture.

CONTRADICTION: --- When Word is written with a capital W in either the NT or the Quran, it refers to the Logos, --- which is the ‘Creative power’ of God.'
Yusuf Ali: 3:45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

Jesus language was Semitic language and not Greek/Roman. So, is Quran writen in Semitic language.

In Semitic languages there are no capital and small letters, only one type of letters. Quran has no capital and small letters, only one type of letters. Translated Quran is not Quran.

Again, there is no such thing as logos or bogus in Quran.

كريم, on 06 September 2011 - 04:42 PM, said:

@ Aladdin: Jazakallah, i agree this thread got a bit messy, you saved the day lol

Bi haqe Mohammad wa alhe Mohammad, Allah to give you good in this life and afterlife.

[placid]

Hi Shi,

Sorry to be slow in getting back to comments on Muhammad.
To continue from Post 28:
I had said that Muhammad began in harmony with Christians.
There is evidence that his wife Khadijah, and her cousin were Christians.
I had mentioned that when Muhammad started to speak openly about worshiping One God in Mecca, his home town, they persecuted his followers, and Mr Pickthall records in the intro to his translation:
Quote: “So cruel was the persecution they endured that the Prophet advised all who could possibly contrive to do so, to emigrate to a Christian country, Abyssinia.” End of quote.
It continues in the intro to Surah 19, where it says:
Quote: “They were allowed by the Prophet to emigrate to Abyssinia, a Christian country, where they would not be subject to persecution for their worship of the One God.’ End of quote.
After their arrival, a delegation came from Mecca to complain that they left dishonorably and asked the Negus (king) to send them back.
The Negus asked if they had a spokesman and Ja’far ibn Abi Talib, a cousin of the Prophet answered. --- He spoke about their plight in Mecca and the persecution because they worshiped God only.  And he spoke of Muhammad’s teaching them about God and nurturing them and said that they had chosen the Negus’s land and his protection in the hope that they would not be troubled.
--- Then the Negus asked him if he had anything of the teaching that he had received from God? Ja’far answered, “Yes.” Then the Negus said, “Relate it to me.” And Ja’far recited to him the beginning of Surah 19, entitled Mary.
Mr Pickthall says, “Therefore this Surah must have been revealed and well known before the departure of the emigrants for Abyssinia.”
If this was the first testimony given of what Muslims believe, it proves that Muhammad was given the message of the Gospel to teach and believe during the first three years.
--- Therefore the beginning of Islam (the surrender to God) came out of Christian roots, and this is why there was harmony with Christians in the Quran.
Here would have been the testimony given by Ja’far from Surah 19, would it not?
1. Kaf. Ha. Ya. 'Ain. Sad.
2. (This is) a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zakariya.
3. Behold! he cried to his Lord in secret,
4. Praying: "O my Lord! infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with grey: but never am I unblest, O my Lord, in my prayer to Thee!
5. "Now I fear (what) my relatives (and colleagues) (will do) after me: but my wife is barren: so give me an heir as from Thyself, -
6. "(One that) will (truly) represent me, and represent the posterity of Jacob; and make him, O my Lord! one with whom Thou art well-pleased!"
7. (His prayer was answered): "O Zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: His name shall be Yahya: on none by that name have We conferred distinction before."
8. He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?"
9. He said: "So (it will be) thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!'"
10. (Zakariya) said: "O my Lord! give me a Sign." "Thy Sign," was the answer, "Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three nights, although thou art not dumb."
11. So Zakariya came out to his people from him chamber: He told them by signs to celebrate God's praises in the morning and in the evening.
12. (To his son came the command): "O Yahya! take hold of the Book with might": and We gave him Wisdom even as a youth,
13. And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
14. And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.
15. So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!
16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
19. He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!
24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
25. "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
26. "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
36. Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
--- If this was the first testimony given of what Muslims believe, then Muhammad must have received these revelations and taught the Gospel Message from the beginning.
This would prove that Muhammad did not start a new religion, but returned his people to faith in One God and surrender of one’s will and purpose unto Him.
In leading such a revival God used him to destroy idolatry from his people, and return them to the worship of Almighty God, --- is that not right?

Placid

[Lanatin]

There is nothing that says Khadijah was Christian; only her cousin was.

Perhaps you're attempting to present a case of argumentum ad verecundiam?

Edited by La'nat Ma Man, 08 September 2011 - 02:11 PM.

[placid]

Hi La’nat,

(Sorry, long response, and please don’t be offended with my answer.)
Quote: There is nothing that says Khadijah was Christian; only her cousin was.

Response, --- You are right, Mr Pickthall did not say that she was a Christian, but there are different indications.
She seemed to have faith in God, and was positive about the vision of Gabriel to be God’s call to Muhammad.
In Wikipedia, this is recorded:
Quote: Ronald Bodley in his book The Messenger, the Life of Mohammed, 1946[5] wrote:
"God is my protection, Oh Abul Kasim!" said Khadija, "Rejoice and be of good cheer. He in Whose hands stands the life of Khadija, is my Witness that thou wilt be the Messenger of His people!" Then she added, "Hast thou not been loving to thy kinsfolk, kind to thy neighbors, charitable to the poor, hospitable to the stranger, faithful to thy word, and ever a defender of the truth?" End of quote.
--- “Rejoice and be of good cheer,” are the words of Jesus, and the content of the statement sounds like they come from “The Sermon on the Mount,” or Matthew 25.

Another indication is in this statement in Mr Pickthall’s intro:
Quote: The early biographers tell how his wife Khadijah “tried the spirit” which came to him and proved it to be good. End of quote,

In the Scriptures God used various ways to reveal his will in calling men into His service: --- Consider Moses and the Burning Bush that spoke to him.

In the days of Gideon, the Midianites would raid the Jewish farmers and steal their crops after they had been threshed, and God spoke to Gideon in Judges 6:
12. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, “The LORD is with you, you mighty man of valor”
13. And Gideon said, “O my lord, if the LORD is with us why then has all this happened to us? Where are all His miracles that our fathers told us about?”
14. Then the LORD said, “Go in this might of yours and you shall save Israel from the hand of the Midianites. --- Have I not sent you?”
15. 15 So he said to Him, “O my Lord,[b] how can I save Israel? Indeed my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house.”
16 And the LORD said to him, “Surely I will be with you, and you shall defeat the Midianites as one man.”
17 Then he said to Him, “If now I have found favor in Your sight, then show me a sign that it is You who talk with me.
18 Do not depart from here, I pray, until I come to You and bring out my offering and set it before You.”
And He said, “I will wait until you come back.”
19 So Gideon went in and prepared a young goat, and unleavened bread from an ephah of flour. The meat he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot; and he brought them out to Him under the terebinth tree and presented them.
20 The Angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread and lay them on this rock, and pour out the broth.” And he did so.
21 Then the Angel of the LORD put out the end of the staff that was in His hand, and touched the meat and the unleavened bread; and fire rose out of the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. And the Angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
22 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the LORD.

--- (You would think that this was enough proof for Gideon, but later he asked for another sign, which is common among Christians called ‘Laying out a fleece.’)
36 So Gideon said to God, “If You will save Israel by my hand as You have said—
37 look, I shall put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor; if there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all the ground, then I shall know that You will save Israel by my hand, as You have said.”
38 And it was so. When he rose early the next morning and squeezed the fleece together, he wrung the dew out of the fleece, a bowlful of water.
39 Then Gideon said to God, “Do not be angry with me, but let me speak just once more: Let me test, I pray, just once more with the fleece; let it now be dry only on the fleece, but on all the ground let there be dew.”
40 And God did so that night. It was dry on the fleece only, but there was dew on all the ground.
--- And through God’s strategy, Gideon defeated some 120,000 Midianites with only 300 men.

The High Priests that followed Aaron had two stones called the Urim and Thummin, by which they would determine God’s will.
Another method used was to, ‘cast lots,’ so that God could determine the desired outcome. --- (In the world, they ‘flip a coin’ or ‘draw straws.’

In the NT some who have the Holy Spirit have ‘A gift of discernment,’ where they are given to ‘know the spirits.’ --- Or, sometimes it involves a personal sacrifice, to show one’s sincerity, such as ‘fasting and praying’ for a certain time before God responds. --- So, “trying a spirit” to see if it is of God, or, ‘laying out a fleece,’ is common among Christians, so Khadijah, being a woman of faith, no doubt used one such method.
It is understood that she had faith in God, or God wouldn’t have answered her.

--- One more thing, --- as a woman of faith, and most likely a Christian, she would not have to ‘convert to Islam,’ because she would be ‘surrendered to God’ which is what Islam means, --- and as I have posted above, --- if one of the first messages revealed to Muhammad was Surah 19, ‘the birth of John the Baptist and the virgin birth of Jesus,’ --- she would already know those Scriptures.
It appears that God had ‘chosen’ her to be Muhammad’s wife because she was a woman of wealth and influence, with a spirit of generosity and benevolence.

Also, the disciples of Jesus were called Muslims (surrendered ones) in Surah 3:
52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle; then write us down among those who bear witness."
I like to read it this way:
"Our Lord! (God) we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness."

From my studies I don’t find that Muhammad started a new ‘religion’ --- but simply brought people back to the Way that was straight, --- where Jesus said also in Surah 3:
50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
This is why the indication to me is that the revelations of Gabriel to Muhammad, were in harmony with Christianity.


Placid

[aladdin]

Muslims don't believe Jesus to be God, Son of God, son of God or anything enough close to it. You have been here long time to know this. Preach somewhere else.