294 replies to this topic

[placid]

Hi Debater,

Quote from Post 200:
Allah speaks about the Qur'an and its use of fundamental and allegorical verses. He says, "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge..." (3:7) This group described at the end of the verse, who Allah describes as a group that is delved into knowledge, consists of Muhammad  and the Ahl al-Bayt  .
(A quote from Qa'im from another thread)

Even the Qur'an tells us to ask those grounded in knowledge (whom we believe to be the Prophet  and the Ahlul Bayt [as]


Response: --- This is what makes a great difference in understanding.
When Muhammad said, I leave you two things, --- First, the Quran, --- and Second, the Ahlul Bayt --- which means ‘People of the House,’ does it not?
(And to check the meaning online it says this)

--- Most Sunnis are in the opinion that the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) are:
• Fatimah al-Zahra (the daughter of the Messenger of Allah),
• Imam Ali ,
• Imam al-Hasan ,
• Imam al-Husain ,
• Wives of the Prophet (PBUH&HF)

(Some omit the wives of the Prophet, --- so that would be the five: Muhammad, his daughter Fatimah, his son-in-law Ali, his two grandsons, Hasan, and Hussain, --- who were 8 and 6 at the time of his death. --- Also, Fatimah died shortly after Muhammad, so that left Ali, Hasan and Hussain of the ‘People of the House.’)


Quote: The difference here is that we believe the people who explained to us the meaning of the Qur'an are the people whom the Qur'an itself tells us to ask if we don't know, and that they are divinely appointed by Allah (swt) thus whatever interpretation they give of the Qur'an is 100% correct and there is no error whatsoever.  


Response: --- Surah 3 was revealed in the 3rd or 4th year of the Hijrah, and there were more Surahs to be revealed, --- so, in verse 3 where it says:
‘He (God), Who SENT (past tense) down to thee, step by step (or Surah by Surah), in truth, the Book (the Surahs revealed to that point), confirming what went before it, the Law of Moses, and the Gospel of Jesus.’
--- This then gives the understanding that Surahs 2 and 3, which are basic teaching Surahs, which were revealed in Madinah, and the Surahs revealed previously in Mecca are what it refers to. --- Then to read it in context, it says:

2. God! There is no god but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4. Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
5. From God, verily nothing is hidden on earth or in the heavens.
6. He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. --- And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

In your version, it ends with:
--- but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge..." (Most translations begin this sentence with a capital, --- ‘But,’ or ‘And.’)
--- It ends with ‘---‘ which indicates there is more to the verse, but concludes with the suggestion that it means ‘men of understanding’ after Muhammad.

Whereas, when it is read in context, --- verses 5-6 refer back to verse 2, which affirms that God is Eternal and All-knowing.
And verse 7 relates back to 3-4, and the Book refers to the former Scriptures, and that which had been revealed to Muhammad up until that time.
--- It reads: And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

So your version ends with “Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge ---“
Whereas, the Quran says, “Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say:
"We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Notice: --- One last thing, --- The ‘men of understanding’ had to have lived before Muhammad, and had to have been mature students of the Scriptures, to be able to verify that the ‘whole of the Book of Scriptures’ is from God, --- at the time this Surah was revealed.

You can believe that your version is 100% correct, if you want, --- but a casual, or non-Muslim reader would take the verses at face value, would they not?

--- (I am not being critical, but just pointing out the differences I see.)


Placid

[Shia_Debater]

placid, on 27 May 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Hi Debater,

Hi Placid,

Quote

Response: --- This is what makes a great difference in understanding.
When Muhammad said, I leave you two things, --- First, the Quran, --- and Second, the Ahlul Bayt --- which means ‘People of the House,’ does it not?
(And to check the meaning online it says this)

--- Most Sunnis are in the opinion that the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) are:
• Fatimah al-Zahra (the daughter of the Messenger of Allah),
• Imam Ali ,
• Imam al-Hasan ,
• Imam al-Husain ,
• Wives of the Prophet (PBUH&HF)

(Some omit the wives of the Prophet, --- so that would be the five: Muhammad, his daughter Fatimah, his son-in-law Ali, his two grandsons, Hasan, and Hussain, --- who were 8 and 6 at the time of his death. --- Also, Fatimah died shortly after Muhammad, so that left Ali, Hasan and Hussain of the ‘People of the House.’)

We don't accept the wives being part of the Ahlul Bayt however the later imams are also part of the Ahlul Bayt .

You may say most (or maybe all) after Imam Hussain weren't around at the time of the Prophet however even the sunni's who don't accept the later imams but believe in a mahdi coming have in their narrations that he will come many years later and will be a descendant of the Prophet and he will be a part of the Ahlul Bayt

Quote

Response: --- Surah 3 was revealed in the 3rd or 4th year of the Hijrah, and there were more Surahs to be revealed, --- so, in verse 3 where it says:
‘He (God), Who SENT (past tense) down to thee, step by step (or Surah by Surah), in truth, the Book (the Surahs revealed to that point), confirming what went before it, the Law of Moses, and the Gospel of Jesus.’
--- This then gives the understanding that Surahs 2 and 3, which are basic teaching Surahs, which were revealed in Madinah, and the Surahs revealed previously in Mecca are what it refers to. --- Then to read it in context, it says:

2. God! There is no god but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4. Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
5. From God, verily nothing is hidden on earth or in the heavens.
6. He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. --- And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

In your version, it ends with:
--- but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge..." (Most translations begin this sentence with a capital, --- ‘But,’ or ‘And.’)
--- It ends with ‘---‘ which indicates there is more to the verse, but concludes with the suggestion that it means ‘men of understanding’ after Muhammad.

Whereas, when it is read in context, --- verses 5-6 refer back to verse 2, which affirms that God is Eternal and All-knowing.
And verse 7 relates back to 3-4, and the Book refers to the former Scriptures, and that which had been revealed to Muhammad up until that time.
--- It reads: And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

So your version ends with “Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge ---“
Whereas, the Quran says, “Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say:
"We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Notice: --- One last thing, --- The ‘men of understanding’ had to have lived before Muhammad, and had to have been mature students of the Scriptures, to be able to verify that the ‘whole of the Book of Scriptures’ is from God, --- at the time this Surah was revealed.

You can believe that your version is 100% correct, if you want, --- but a casual, or non-Muslim reader would take the verses at face value, would they not?

--- (I am not being critical, but just pointing out the differences I see.)

I don't know much about this topic, and I tried searching up commentary on the Qur'an via traditions of the Imams but they haven't been translated yet for these particular verses (a brother is working on translating them) so I would prefer not to comment incase my interpretation is wrong

However one thing I will comment on is that the 'men of understanding' may not necessarily mean those who lived before the Prophet

[placid]

Hi Debater,

I don’t doubt that there were men of understanding after Muhammad, but among the Imams it seemed that the fourth Imam was the last man who was really devoted to prayer:

Ali ibn Hussayn. He was born in 658 and became Imam at age 22 in 680.
He seemed to have been a pious man who spent much time in prayer as did Muhammad --- (One who constantly Prostrates,)

However, in 3:7, it has to refer to those who were knowledgeable before, and in the time of Muhammad to be able to say, --- “And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:’ and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”


Also, it speaks here in the Quran of ‘men of understanding’
In Surah 7, after the long discourse on Satan (Iblis) and his deception of Adam and Eve, --- and being cast out of God’s presence to become the adversary, --- and our enemy on earth, --- there is this verse:
32. Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of God, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.

Since we find in reading the context of verses in the Quran, that most references to “The people of the Scriptures” or “the people of the Book,” refer to the Jews, --- and of the Christians it said in Surah 5:

82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84. "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86. But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

And again in Surah 3:
52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
53. "Our Lord (God)! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness."


I have a question. --- I wonder if you know when Islam, or Muslims, began to turn against Christians? --- Was it historical, or was it just rejection of Jesus and the Gospel?


Placid

[Shia_Debater]

placid, on 28 May 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Hi Debater,

Hi Placid,

Quote

I don’t doubt that there were men of understanding after Muhammad, but among the Imams it seemed that the fourth Imam was the last man who was really devoted to prayer:

Ali ibn Hussayn. He was born in 658 and became Imam at age 22 in 680.
He seemed to have been a pious man who spent much time in prayer as did Muhammad --- (One who constantly Prostrates,)

The other Imams were very spiritual too.

For example, Imam Musa al-Kadhim the 8th Imam prayed to Allah (swt) to grant him a way where he could worship him in private a lot (or something along those lines) and was in prison for most of his life, and thus his prayer was granted and he prayed in private (I can't remember the details but I have either read or heard something along those lines)

By the way I found out about your earlier question (To do with the book Sahifa al-Mahdiyya)

It is a book with duas that are attributed to the Imam (atfs) as in both duas that are about him and duas that he has said, the authenticity in the chain of narrations differs from each dua though.

Here is one example of a dua that is said that Imam (atfs) said, so as we can see he was spiritual too (all the imams were spiritual)

Quote

However, in 3:7, it has to refer to those who were knowledgeable before, and in the time of Muhammad to be able to say, --- “And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:’ and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”

I don't quite see how you came to the conclusion that those firmly rooted in knowledge have to have been from before the time of the Prophet and alive at his time too.

Quote

I have a question. --- I wonder if you know when Islam, or Muslims, began to turn against Christians? --- Was it historical, or was it just rejection of Jesus and the Gospel?

How do you mean turn against Christians? In what way?

The muslims don't reject Prophet Jesus thats for sure. The muslims as far as I know don't accept the Gospel as being authentic and don't deem it necessary to be followed, but I don't understand what you mean by turn against Christians

Note - sorry for missing out a large part of your comment, at the moment I'm going through a stage where I am having many doubts about how to say things without it accidentally misleading anyone, so I try to refrain from making comments that I believe might be misleading.

Also I don't have much knowledge on the Qur'an unfortunately so I would rather say I don't know than comment on something I don't know.

Edited by Shia_Debater, 28 May 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[placid]

Hi Debater,

Quote: (I said) However, in 3:7, it has to refer to those who were knowledgeable before, and in the time of Muhammad to be able to say, --- “And those who ARE firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:’ and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”

(You said) I don't quite see how you came to the conclusion that those firmly rooted in knowledge have to have been from before the time of the Prophet  and alive at his time too.


Response: --- The reason I said that was because Surah 3 was revealed in the 3rd or 4th year of the Hijrah and it speaks in the past and present tenses, so in this case, the knowledgeable ones would have had to say what they did, previous to year 4, after the Hijrah, which would have been by year 626. --- 6 years before Muhammad died. --- It says “Those who ARE firmly grounded in knowledge.”
The ‘grounding’ had to take place in the past, as it comes by study, and to say, “They ARE grounded,” puts it in the present tense, --- so that was how I arrived at my conclusion.  

I read the long Duo, and see that it used many quotes from the Quran but I couldn’t detect any distinct message.
However, --- I don’t want to dwell on this but rather go on to other topics.


I have been greatly interested in Surah 9 which was revealed in the 9th year of the Hijrah, just a year before Muhammad died, and this revelation in Surah 9, is about the last teaching Surah.

--- It is called ‘Repentance,’ --- or, ‘The immunity,’ where Muhammad sent the message to be read out by Ali at the Pilgrimage in year 9, --- when all the idolaters were given warning that this year was the last year that they would be able to attend the Pilgrimage, and, in fact, the last year they could be in Mecca, as idolatry was being destroyed or driven out of Arabia.

It says in Surah 9:
28. O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.

However, along with this instruction to expel the idolaters, --- my interest is especially in Muhammad’s message to ‘true believers,’ in these verses:
17. It is not for such as join gods with God (idolaters), to visit or maintain the mosques of God while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.

--- (The idolaters may have still worked in the Mosque at Mecca after the 360 some idols had been removed, --- but here, Muhammad said, “It is not for idolaters to ‘attend’ the Mosque, that is dedicated to One God, --- or to ‘tend,’ or maintain the building. --- The idolaters were a mockery to themselves. So they were no more allowed), --- but ---  

18. The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

--- (This is consistent with Muhammad’s early revelations, as I will show later.)

19. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in God and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of God? They are not comparable in the sight of God: and God guides not those who do wrong.

--- (The idolaters could do physical work, even serving food and drink to the pilgrims coming to the Mosque, but that is undedicated service, compared to those --- ‘Who believe in God and the Last Day and strive with might and main in the cause of God.') --- And here is the reward.

20. Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in God's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of God: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).
21. Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:
22. They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in God's presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).

So as not to get too long, I will continue later.


Placid

[Shia_Debater]

Unfortunately I don't have much knowledge on the Qur'an - very little infact.

I wouldn't want to waste your time by trying to discuss something that I don't know - I know it kind of appears like I'm trying to 'run away' from the discussion but honestly I would rather not comment on something I don't know than to pretend I know what I'm talking about so if you don't mind I would rather leave this discussion

[placid]

Hi Debater,

I am sorry you want to discontinue our discussion. You have been very open and I have learned the most from you of anyone, --- of what Shias believe.
I hope you will keep reading because this is a good topic, “What do non-Muslims think of Muhammad, (and Islam.)”

Perhaps someone else will join us. --- If not, I have a few more subjects to discuss or ask questions about, --- and I appreciate your contribution, --- if you feel like answering, or giving more information, please do, --- thanks.


As I said, I was interested in Surah 9, which was revealed the ninth year of the Hijrah, --- and I wanted to compare his teaching in his last teaching Surah, --- to his message and teaching in Madinah through the years.

Surah 2 was revealed in the 1st to 2nd year of the Hijrah
Surah 3 was revealed in the 3rd to 4th year of the Hijrah
Surah 4 was revealed in the 4th year of the Hijrah,

--- So his message was of faith in God, belief in angels, the former Scriptures, the Patriarchs and Prophets, --- and belief in the Last Day, the day of reckoning.
--- And again in Surah 9, it confirms faith in God and the Last Day, and instructs worship, prayer and benevolence, --- and the teaching of God’s favor to those who are dedicated to His service, --- (in the verses from Surah 9, at the end).  

2:136. Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

2:177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness - to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Apostles; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.

3:84. Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

4:136. O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.

4:163. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

And these verses in 9 relate especially to 2:177
9:18. The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.
19. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in God and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of God? They are not comparable in the sight of God: and God guides not those who do wrong.
20.  Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in God's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of God: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).

--- (This relates well to what Christians believe)


Placid

[Goku]

placid, on 24 April 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

(To continue)

As a Non-Muslim I have questions about the continuing spiritual guidance of Islam.
The first three caliphs were Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman

During Uthman’s Caliphate he compiled the Quran as it is today, and destroyed extra copies of Surahs, so that the teaching of Islam would be from one source

I have read here on Shiachat that Muhammad said to his companions, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.
--- So here is another good basis for the one belief in Islam. --- Go with the Quran only.  
--- This was the first thing that Muhammad said he was leaving.

And the second was, his family --- His daughter Fatima, her husband Ali who Muhammad appointed as his successor, and their two children Hassan and Hussain --- (Unfortunately Fatima died shortly after Muhammad)

So, as I said previously, Ali who was the first Imam was invited to be the next Caliph after Uthman. He refused at first, but after much persuasion, he reluctantly accepted, and said, he would make some changes, --- but unfortunately as Caliph he suffered opposition and realized his efforts were ineffective

Unfortunately he was struck with a poison sword while praying in a Mosque and died a few days later. --- His legacy would live on in his writings, but the country seemed to be left in chaos.

His son, Imam Hassan became the Caliph following his father, Ali, --- but was ineffective and had to compromise, making a truce with Moavia, ‘who would have no dominion over spiritual leadership. He would not appoint a successor and the choice was to be left to the people.’
--- (It would seem that from this time the Imams would be in charge of the spiritual leadership and the Caliphs would govern with the secular ruling body.
It would be the separation of ‘Church and State’ for Islam.

It is recorded that some years later Imam Hassan was poisoned by his wife on the orders of the new Caliph, Mauwiya.

The Second son of Ali was the third Imam, and his story is told in “The tragedy of Kerbala,” at the top of page 1.
Imam Hussain’s family was all killed except one son who was sick with a fever and was allowed to live, or die, --- and the remaining women were taken prisoner, --- so, unfortunately, the immediate family of Muhammad was no more.


Some commentators have written that the ‘Prophethood’ was passed from one to another of the Imams. --- However, I have found nothing in the Quran to support this,
--- Or are there verses that I have missed that indicate this?


Others have said that the Holy Spirit continues with the spiritual leader, --- but the Holy Spirit is not given to anyone who is not spiritually worthy, and since the Holy Spirit was not known after Muhammad and perhaps Ali, --- there was no spiritual guidance from God, was there?

Imam Hussain was killed about 680 AD, --- about 38 years after Muhammad, his grandfather, died.  --- And while the one part of his legacy remained, ‘the Quran,’ --- it seemed that the second part of his legacy, his family, was gone.

So where did their spiritual guidance come from?  


Placid

The fourth imam, Imam Zainul Abideen,  who was that one person who was too sick to fight during Karbala, he is the spiritual guidance after Imam Hussein.

[placid]

Hi Goku,

Quote: The fourth imam, Imam Zainul Abideen, who was that one person who was too sick to fight during Karbala, he is the spiritual guidance after Imam Hussein.


Response: --- Thanks for this info, --- so there was a connection between Imam Hussain, and the fourth Imam.
From the description, he was a man devoted to prayer, however, he too came to an untimely death, did he not?

I had said that he was the last one that appeared to be Spiritual, --- as the fifth and later Imams seemed to teach more academics and politics, --- than being spiritual leaders, and teaching and leading in the Mosques as Ali had done.
There is nothing wrong with teaching academics and politics for professors, but for ‘set apart’ spiritual leaders, --- I wonder how close to God they were.

If they knew they were on a ‘short string’ with the Caliphs who kept poisoning them, I suppose, for self-preservation, they would have wanted to teach what was helpful and acceptable to the people in order to show their value in society, would they not?

[Jungie]

It's so frustrating when non Muslims say that our prophet raped children. I just want to kill them right at that moment when they say that...  Seriously... But sometimes I laugh because They have know idea that what they are saying is gonna get them in big trouble when they die. It kinda makes me happy. They deserve it. BUt still, it's sad that we have so many ignorant people in this world. Especially Americans. But I noticed that religious Christians aren't ignorant but just think each person has their own belief while non religious Christians ( who drink and have sex before mirrage) are the ignorant ones... So low man.

[placid]

Hi Jungle,

Are you sure you are on the right topic, --- nothing you said relates to anything on this topic, does it?

I have the highest regard for Muhammad.

Your term 'Unreligious Christians' is a kind of a contradiction, is it not?

[Jungie]

placid, on 04 June 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Hi Jungle,

Are you sure you are on the right topic, --- nothing you said relates to anything on this topic, does it?

I have the highest regard for Muhammad.

Your term 'Unreligious Christians' is a kind of a contradiction, is it not?

It's "jungle"
Oh I am sorry if I offended you !
I was talking about people who call themselves "Christians" but don't follow the religion yet they talk about Islam.. I actually respect Christians in general, but not the ones who talk about Muhammad.

[placid]

Hi Goku,

I had wanted to relate to Debater the results of the Scriptures I posted on the teaching of Muhammad, and compare them to the teaching of Christians, who base their Faith on the New Testament, and a sacrificial life of service to God.

2:136.  Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord

--- (This is what we believe as well --- All the revelations of God, through His Prophets, --- the Books of Law given to Moses, and the Gospel, given to Jesus.)

2:177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness - to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Apostles; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.

--- (This covers the area of believing and following ‘righteousness.’ --- To believe all of God’s word. --- The prophecies of the Last Day, the Angels, the Prophets, and the Apostles.
--- To spend one’s substance out of love for God, and for relatives, and for strangers, --- to be benevolent, and generous.)

This really is the teaching of Jesus, to love God, and love your neighbor, as you love yourself.

--- (Then to be diligent in prayer, and practice regular giving at your place of worship. --- To keep your word and fulfill your contracts, to be patient in suffering, and be self-sacrificing to others.    
This is the highest lifestyle, and --- ‘These are the people of truth, the God fearing.’)

4:163. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

--- (To follow the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as these were inspired.)

And these verse from Surah 9:
9:18. The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.
19. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in God and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of God? They are not comparable in the sight of God: and God guides not those who do wrong.
20.  Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in God's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of God: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).

--- (18. The desire is to have dedicated workers in the places of worship, --- and in year 9, Muhammad taught the same as in Surahs 2 and 3:
“Believe in God, and the Last Day, establish regular prayer, practice regular charity, --- and fear [with reverential respect] none but God ---which is the road of ‘true guidance.’)

(19. The life of dedicated service to God as missionaries, at home, or in other countries, who strive with might and main in their service to God.)

(20. --- Those who suffer persecution, spend of personal goods, and give themselves to others in service, --- “They will achieve salvation”)

The message I wanted to convey is that Christians still follow the lifestyle that was revealed to Muhammad both at the beginning of his teaching in Madinah, --- and in Surah nine, which was about his last teaching Surah before his death.


Placid

[placid]

Hi Goku or whoever,

To continue in Surah 9:
The revealing of this Surah was to signal the end of idolatry in Arabia.
The idolaters were given one year from that Pilgrimage in the ninth year of the Hijrah to be converted, --- to have left the country, --- or to run the risk of being put to death as enemies.

Verse 28 says, “O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.”

It seems that over the years, the commentators have changed the meaning from the ‘idolaters’ of THAT YEAR IN HISTORY, --- when God destroyed the abomination of idolatry from Mecca and Arabia, --- to meaning that --- ALL NON-MUSLIMS ARE UNCLEAN --- and that they must be dominated and their religion destroyed.

The different translators that are listed on ‘Quranbrowser.com’ all agree on the meaning of idolater, --- except one.
Pickthall: O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean.
Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean;
Shakir: O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean,
Sher Ali: O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean.
Khalifa: O you who believe, the idol worshipers are polluted;
Arberry: O believers, the idolaters are indeed unclean;
Palmer: O ye who believe! it is only the idolaters who are unclean;
Rodwell: O Believers! only they who join gods with God are unclean!
Sale: O true believers, verily the idolaters are unclean.

The exception is this new translation by Hilali Khan, who renders it:
O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year.

According to the rules of translation, --- what is added in brackets, is not in the original Arabic text. --- You will notice that in the nine first translations, there are no brackets, so the translation is clear.
--- Therefore, what is added in brackets is the opinion of the translator, is it not?

However, the newer translation could read as follows without the brackets:  
O you who believe Verily, the Mushrikun are Najasun (impure).

Note: --- Again I want the readers to understand that I am not trying to find negative reports on this translation, though there are many,
--- But with the question:
“What is the Non-Muslim view of Muhammad?” --- I want to answer by showing what has fostered the changed view --- that Islam now sees Christians and Jews as enemies.

I don’t want you to misunderstand my motives. --- I have the greatest respect for Muhammad as the Messenger of God to the Arab people, to bring them out of idolatry and back to worshiping God,
--- But now, to see the terrorists, being allowed to claim Muhammad as their leader, --- makes it hard for me to show other Christians the truth revealed in the Quran, --- that Muhammad was the ‘peacemaker’ in Arabia, and deserves his place in history, rather than being defamed.

About this contemporary Translation that is endorsed by the Saudi Government:  
Quote from Wikipedia:
the Hilali-Khan translation, is a translation of the Qur'an by contemporary Pakistani Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan
This English translation was sponsored by the Saudi government and is provided free. It has been reported[by whom?] to be the most popular and "Now the most widely disseminated Qur'an in most Islamic bookstores and Sunni mosques throughout the English-speaking world[dubious – discuss], this new translation is meant to replace the Yusuf 'Ali edition and comes with a seal of approval from both the University of Medina and the Saudi Dar al-Ifta. --- End of quote.

Quote: In the January 2002 issue of The American Muslim we published an article by Dr. Robert D. Crane ‘Playing Into the Hands of the Extremists? (Hilali Khan Qur’an Translation) discussed what is “Perhaps the most extremist translation ever made of the Qur’an”.  --- End of quote.

How could this one translation change the thinking, or believing of the people?
Or has it not had much influence?


Placid

[placid]

To continue from above, in Surah 9:

Hilali Khan gives some good explanations (in his brackets) but because of the misunderstanding of the faulty doctrine of trinity, --- many Muslims have been given the idea that Christians worship three gods.

Hilali Khan enforces that misconception by always emphasizing the belief in One God.  ---For example, in this verse 9:28, as mentioned above:

O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year.

Notice what he has added to the text
--- (In Allah’s Oneness) --- (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of God)
If you tell people that Christians are polytheists (notice, --- that is the first word in the bracket), --- then you can imply it each time there is a verse on the subject, and people will begin to believe it, --- though it is not what the Quran teaches.

Surah 5 gives this testimony and ultimate reward of believing Christians:
82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84. "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

Someone said that “God is of Divine Essence which is above Personhood.”
--- Because most Muslims do not read the OT to understand how God revealed Himself in Representatives, or Manifestations, they cannot have the concept that God is ‘represented’ in any way but --- 'being remote.'

Muhammad explained the three Manifestations in Surah 4:
171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God.
172. The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels

He was apparently answering some ‘trinitarians,’ --- when he said:
“The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary was only a Messenger of God, --- and His Word which He conveyed into Mary, --- and a Spirit from Him.

So, Jesus, the Messiah was a Messenger (Servant) of God (the Father), --- and His Word (Logos), --- and God’s (Holy) Spirit.

And Muhammad said, “But don’t say ‘Three’ --- God is only one God.
--- (And the next verse verifies that Jesus’ role was to be a Servant)
172. And the Messiah, Jesus will never scorn (or distain) to be a Servant to God.

Notice what is written in 1 John 5:
7.  For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one

You see, it says the same thing.

Now look at it this way, --- ALMIGHTY GOD IS ABOVE ALL, --- no one can know Him. --- So He has revealed Himself through the Personages, or Manifestations of: --- The Father, --- the Word, --- and the Holy Spirit.
--- And these three are the ‘witnesses,’ ‘testimonies,’ records, in Heaven of --- ONE GOD.

In the OT, the plural name for God was Elohim, and it uses the ‘pronouns’ We, Us, and Our, --- to refer to the Manifestations of God,
--- These same pronouns are used in the Quran, but they have been explained away as being a ‘Royal We.’

And always in the Manifestations, the Father figure is the leader, and the Word, and the Spirit are the Servants,
--- Even as Jesus, the Messiah, was a Messenger (or Servant) of God.
However, --- the Manifestation of God, --- the Word (Logos), came from heaven to indwell the Person of Jesus while He was on earth.

Since the first Christians believed and honored Muhammad because what God revealed through him was what they already believed, can someone exolain why Muslims now reject Christians? --- Is it because of misunderstanding?


Placid

[placid]

To continue in Surah 9:

As I have mentioned, Surah 9 seems to be the last real teaching Surah.
It spells out amnesty for the converts and banishment for the offenders.

It was the beginning of the end for idolatry in Arabia. --- Surah 9:
28. O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.
--- (A year before this the 360 some idols had been removed and destroyed from the Kabah, the house of prayer, so now, the idolaters must go too.)

29. Fight those who believe not in God, nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Verse 29 speaks of so called Jews, Christians, or others who do not believe in God, the Last Day, or the day of reward and punishment. --- Who do not believe in the Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth.
--- (If there are renegade so called Christians who are unbelievers, then they are on notice too.)

--- The new religion of worshiping God only has come, so those who oppose the truth are to be considered as enemies, --- until they comply with the rules and pay the required taxes, etc.
--- This wouldn't mean that the true worshipers couldn’t practice their faith if it was in harmony with what God was revealing to and through Muhammad, would it?

In the former post I had used the verses from Surah 5:82 -85, --- notice the harmony in this verse:
83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

So, where there was harmony with what Muhammad taught, there was no reason to change, because they already believed ‘the religion of truth.’

A few verses later, Surah 9 says this:
31. Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.
32. He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

I have heard that the new teachers take these verses to mean that Islam is to dominate the religions of the world. --- Do you have any thoughts on this?

--- However, in the next post I want to look at the other place where these same verses are written.


Placid

[placid]

(To continue with the verses above)

I have become fascinated with the Quran and I enjoy studying it.
If anyone feels I am unworthy to give a non-Muslim view, by using the Quran to confirm the former Scriptures, ---I am willing to be corrected, or enlightened.

My interest is in knowing what happened over the years to cause division between Islam and Christianity, --- since the Quran commends Christians, as seen in Surah 5:82-85, as being compatible.

--- However, in the same way that I disagree with some doctrines that are followed by Christians, I willingly discuss with them, --- so, too, I want to discuss with Muslims the differences.
We are too far along in history to blame differences on some past injustice done, or some prejudice that can’t be forgiven.
--- We are living in the days when end time prophesies are being fulfilled, are we not?

The Quran had declaring this in Surah 9:
28.’O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.’

--- There is no mention of Jews and Christians being unclean. --- (In fact, I doubt that there were many Jews and Christians in Mecca at that time.)

--- Also, other verses say this, as in Surah 2:
62. Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

The attention here is on the idolaters who still worshiped some of the 360 idols that had been destroyed out of the Kabah the year before, and now the idolaters had to believe or leave.

--- So, it says in 9:
32. Pickthall: Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.
33. He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

---So God purpose was to ‘perfect His light’ in the midst of the people. --- To send His messenger, Muhammad, with the guidance and the Religion of Truth. ---Which would prevail over all beliefs of the idolaters.

But this Modern Translator renders the verses this way (adding his comments in brackets):
9:32. Hilali Khan: They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad SAW has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).
33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).


Placid

[placid]

To continue from above,

In the Pickthall translation, the intro to ‘The Ranks,’ Surah 61, says:
Quote: It is stated to have been revealed at Mecca, though its contents evidently refer to the Madinah period. It may have been revealed while the Prophet and his companions were encamped in the Valley of Mecca during the negotiations of the Truce of Hudeybiyah, with which some of its verses are associated by tradition.
--- In that case the date of the revelation would be the sixth year of the Hijrah. --- End of quote.

Mr Pickthall records in his general intro:
‘The Prophet previously had a vision of entering Mecca unopposed, therefore, he attempted the pilgrimage. --- Attired as pilgrims, and taking with them the customary offerings, a company of 1400 journeyed to Mecca.
--- They were warned along the way that the Qureysh were waiting for them, to stop them. --- At that the Prophet took a detour through gorges and ended up in the Valley of Mecca and encamped at a spot called Al-Hudeybiyah, from thence he tried to open negotiations with the Qureysh, explaining that he came only as a pilgrim.
--- Their first negotiations failed, so the Prophet looked for someone who would impose respect, so he chose Uthman who was from a strong family.
While they awaited his return, the first report came back that he had been murdered.
It was then that the Prophet, sitting under a tree in Al-Hudeybiyah took an oath from all his comrades, that they would stand or fall together. --- (It was later learned that Uthman had not been killed, and the first truce was arranged for the next year.)

Thus the name came from verse 4:
4. Lo! Allah loveth them who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure.
5. And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Why persecute ye me, when ye well know that I am Allah's messenger unto you? So when they went astray Allah sent their hearts astray. And Allah guideth not the evil-living folk.
6. And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah,

--- (He gives encouragement by referring to Moses and to Jesus, who were under pressure from their own people, the same way as Muhammad and his comrades.)

--- Then it follows with these verses
8. Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light however much the disbelievers are averse
9. He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse.
--- (Notice that this is directed at the idolaters who had many gods, and therefore many different beliefs, --- And the confidence if given that the Religion of Truth, that there is One God, and that all are to surrender unto Him, --- would prevail.)

The Surah ends with this assurance:
O ye who believe! Be Allah's helpers, even as Jesus son of Mary said unto the disciples: Who are my helpers for Allah? They said: We are Allah's helpers. And a party of the Children of Israel believed, while a party disbelieved. Then We strengthened those who believed against their foe, and they became the uppermost. --- Compare 3:52-53.

The translation of Hilali Khan says:
61: 8. They intend to put out the Light of Allah (i.e. the religion of Islam, this Qur'an, and Prophet Muhammad SAW) with their mouths. But Allah will complete His Light even though the disbelievers hate (it).
9. He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islamic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammed SAW) hate (it).

--- Notice how much he has added in brackets?
But when the same verses are repeated in Mecca three years later, concerning the same idolaters, he translates it this way in Surah 9:
32. They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad SAW has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).
33. is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

Here he identifies the Jews and Christians with the ‘unbelievers,’ and the ‘idolaters.’


Placid

[placid]

To continue in Surah 9:

I want to be very careful not to offend in any way, but as a non-Muslim, --- in studying the various translations and comparing them, you can understand what I am saying. --- Normally I compare the ten translations on ‘Quranbrowser.com,’ and take the consensus of them to arrive at the accepted meaning.

When one stands out as different, and it happens to be a new translation (with personal comments), it shows a change in thinking, does it not?  

I have been reminded that any translation is not the real Quran, --- however, translations are what we have, and since God gave us the Scripture and ‘guards it in safety’ (5:48), we can accept the Quran as translated, can we not?

In Surah 9 it identifies the idolaters who dwelt in Mecca in year 9 of the Hijrah, who had to make a decision within the next year, about abandoning idolatry and converting to believe in the God of heaven, as many had done by this time, --- or to leave the country, --- or to be fought against as enemies.
--- (This was the situation in that year, and was not to be a pattern for the future because it was to be resolved by the removal of idolatry from Arabia.)

This was Muhammad's Mission and he declared victory at his 'Farewell Pilgrimage' shortly beforr he died, did he not?  

To make a comparison we can use Hilali Khan’s translation without the brackets, and read it like this:
28. O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikun) are Najasun. So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
--- (Other translations say, ‘The idolaters only are unclean.)

(Now with brackets):
28.  O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

--- He is emphasizing the issue as being between the Muslim belief in One God as opposed to all others listed in the next verse. --- First without brackets:
29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

--- (Jews and Christians (1) believe in One God in heaven, (2) believe in the Last Day of reward and punishment, (3) they believe in obedience to God’s law, which was in harmony with Muhammad’s teaching, (4) they acknowledge the ‘religion of truth’ which came from Abraham, through Judaism, and Christianity.)

--- We know that the Jews had disagreed with Muhammad on his message, but they still acknowledged the God of Abraham, --- except perhaps some rebellious ones..

Naturally, I am more interested in God’s acknowledgement of Christians in the Quran, --- as it commends them in these verses, in Surah 5:
82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84. What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

However, in 9:29, Hilali Khan writes it this way, to identify the Jews and Christians with the idolaters, as though they were all enemies to be subdued:
29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The Jews and Christians did not have to change their faith, because there was no faith to change to especially for the Christians. They believed in the revelations coming to Muhammad, just as I believe them today, (5:83-85.) --- They recognized the truth that they already believed, which was the ‘religion of truth,’ --- and they had not turned aside from it. (Remember, ‘There is no compulsion in religion.)  

However, there had been some rebellion by the Jews in Madinah. --- So this is the warning, that they would have to pay the required taxes, and submit to the new laws given through Muhammad, with no rebellion against them, --- is that not right?.


Placid

[placid]

To continue in Surah 9, where it said:

28. O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.

--- Three years before this revelation, Muhammad and his followers attempted to go to the Pilgrimage, but they were warned that the Qureysh army was waiting for them on the road ahead so they took a detour, and were in the Valley of Mecca, They made contact with the idolaters and were waiting for a response, --- not knowing whether they would be attacked, or that they would negotiate, and it is believed that Muhammad was given this revelation to encourage them.

Surah 61 is called “The Ranks.” --- And in it are these verses:
8. Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light however much the disbelievers are averse.
9. He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse.

--- Now three years later the verses are repeated in Surah 9, in reference to the same idolaters in Mecca:
32. Fain would they extinguish God's light with their mouths, but God will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
33. It is He Who hath sent His Apostle with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).


So here is the difference in Hilali Khan's translation, in Surah 9:

32. They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad SAW has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).
33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

There are a few interesting things to notice:
It was the idolaters from Mecca that had attacked the Muslims about every year to try and destroy them, which would supposedly put out God’s Light.

--- So these verses are all about silencing the voice of the idolaters, and letting God’s ‘Religion of Truth’ be heard, which would be accomplished the next year.

32. He identifies the Jews and Christians with disbelievers, saying ‘they want to put out God’s light (which he calls Islamic Monotheism), --- suggesting that they are polytheists, like the idolaters in Mecca). --- God’s Light is ‘the Religion of Truth.’
33. It is He (God) who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with Guidance and the ‘Religion of Truth’
The word Islam means ‘Surrender,’ and it originally meant ‘Surrender unto God’s will and Purpose, ‘  --- (which I want to compare  in the next post)

--- (Is it not a dangerous concept for younger readers to be taught that the goal of Islam, is ‘to make it superior over all religions?’)
---These verses were only dealing with this event in year 9-10 of the Hijrah, --- when they were overruling all ‘religions of the idolaters’ with the ‘Religion of Truth.’  --- It has no other application to any period in history, has it?

--- While these distortions are disappointing to me as a Non-Muslim, --- you can understand why when I encourage Christians to get a Quran and read it for themselves, --- I will be warning against Hilali Khan’s version.  

Notice these verses from Surah 5:
44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was Guidance and Light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto
46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was Guidance and Light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a Guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.

Also, this verse that was given to Muhammad in Surah 42:
52. And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a Light whereby We Guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

--- So the same Religion of Truth was given through the Torah, --- through the message of Jesus in the Gospel, --- and the message given to Muhammad, --- that God’s Word will prevail, regardless of the opposition to it.


Placid

[placid]

Hi Debater, Goku, or whoever,

I have said before that when I came on Shiachat first, I expressed an interest in learning about Islam, --- and a Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.”
I had a Pickthall translation which has the history of Muhammad and the Muslims as well as the approximate date of each Surah, and an intro to each one.

I read this with great interest in Mr Pickthall’s intro to Surah 2:
Quote:
All through the Surah runs the note of warning, which sounds indeed throughout the whole Quran, that it is not the mere profession of a creed, but righteous conduct, which is true religion. There is the repeated announcement that the religion of Abraham to which Judaism and Christianity trace their origin, --- is the only true religion, and that that religion consists in the surrender of man’s will and purpose to the Will and Purpose of the Lord of Creation, as manifested in His creation, and revealed by way of guidance through successive Prophets. --- Of sincerity in that religion, the one test is conduct, and the standard of that religion is for all alike. --- End of quote.    

I thought, --- Wow, I am on familiar ground so I should be able to learn quickly. I wrote a short synopsis of each Surah and compared some.  And, as it says in Surah 3:3-4, and other places that the Quran confirms the former Scriptures I was delighted to find the stories of the beginning of the Gospel, the birth of John the Baptist and the Virgin birth of Jesus in Surahs 3 and 19.

I was interested in how God called Muhammad and guided him in overcoming the pagans in the land and eventually destroying idolatry and establishing the worship of our One God Almighty.

However, a Mission or Ministry that follows God’s guidance should produce results, --- and Mr Pickthall records this in his general intro of the last ten years at Madinah:
Quote:
In those ten years he destroyed idolatry in Arabia; raised woman from the status of a chattel to complete legal equality with man; effectually stopped the drunkenness and immorality which had till then disgraced the Arabs; made men to live with faith, sincerity and honest dealing; transformed tribes who had been for centuries content with ignorance, into a people with the greatest thirst for knowledge; and for the first time in history made universal human brotherhood a fact and principle of common law. And his support and guide in all that work was the Quran.  --- End of quote.

God Guided him through the ‘Spirit of His command’ as it says in Surah 42:
52. And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.

I have taken it quite literally that in the ‘True Religion of Abraham,’ --- “The one test is conduct, and the standard for that religion is for all alike.”

So, if Muhammad ‘made universal human brotherhood a fact and principle of common law,’ --- then it still should prevail among believers, should it not?


Placid

[placid]

Hi Goku or whoever,

In a comparison of our faiths, I would like to show you something about our Faith in God and what is our ‘desired’ and ‘expected’ conduct as Christians.
--- We can relate to Mr Pickthall who said, “Of sincerity in that religion, the one test is conduct, and the standard of that religion is for all alike.”

The Apostle Paul had been a persecutor of the Church in Jerusalem and was trying to destroy it. --- But God gave him a vision, and blinded him to show how easy it is for God to stop someone with a sudden affliction --- Being blind, his career would be over, his ambitions would be stopped in their tracks, his life’s purpose would be ruined. --- The story is told in The Acts of the Apostles, chapter 9.

--- God left him in that state of darkness for three days then had an Apostle pray for him and restore his sight. Paul had spent that three days fasting and praying.
He was converted and became as ardent for God and the Gospel, as he had been against them. --- As a result, the Jews began to persecute him as a traitor so he could no longer safely go to Jerusalem.
--- God sent him to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, and, although still persecuted by the Jews wherever he went, --- he established Churches in the Gentile cities.
He wrote letters to the Churches to teach them and to encourage the Christians.
These letters have been preserved and used in Christian Churches from then till now.

This letter is addressed to the Romans, --- and this is recorded in Romans 11:  
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

12: 1. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

--- First there is Praise of God, who is All in All.
--- Then in 12:1, he says, “I beseech you, brethren, ---“ signifying that they are ‘believers.’
--- “By the mercies of God, ---“who is Almighty, but gives His love and mercy to us though we are unworthy.
--- Then the dedication, “That you present your bodies (or yourselves) as a ’living sacrifice’, ---“ a yielded vessel for God to use as He desires, in His service.
--- “Holy, acceptable to God, ---“ dedicated, in reverence to Him.
--- “Which is your reasonable service, ---“ as a surrendered vessel.

--- “And do not be conformed to the world, ---“  you no longer belong to the world, so don’t cater to its desires and deceptions. --- One has said, “Don’t let the world squeeze you into its mold.”
--- “But be transformed ---“ changed in your lifestyle and actions.
--- “By the renewing of your mind, ---“ allowing God to replace self with Himself. To become God centered, not self-centered, --- relying on Him for all things.  
--- “That you may prove, ---“ by your actions in His good works that you are indeed surrendered unto His will and purpose.
--- “(Showing) what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God, ---“ the daily evidence that God’s will is being worked out in your life.

--- I am sure you can see the point I am making:
Al-Islam means ‘the Surrender,’ or 'submission' which is what the first verse, 12:1 teaches. --- And this is the ‘Surrender’ for Christians, as well.

I understand that Jihad means ‘struggle,’ --- and that the original meaning is, --- the struggle one goes through in submitting their will to the will of God.
It is the inner, personal struggle of resigning our will to His, --- which is described in verse 2.

--- (For some Christians it is a long struggle that can really take years, but the blessing and rewards come as a result of that submission.)


Placid

[placid]

To add some info on the Christian ‘jihad.’ (inner struggle to submit all to God).

The teaching in the early Churches was quite definite, --- and the New Commandment had been given by Jesus to first, ‘love God’ and then ‘love your neighbor as yourself’ --- as it says in His response to a lawyer in Matthew 22:
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Jesus had said to the eleven disciples in John 13:
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

While it was a ‘new‘ commandment to the disciples, it was reinstating what had been given through Moses, to the Jews, in Deuteronomy 6:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.
7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.

--- That was pretty definite, was it not?
But the Jews moved away from the Law of Love and were eventually dispersed among the nations as they failed to be God’s messengers to the world.

Jesus had said this in Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Since Jesus taught that the Law given through Moses was now ‘fulfilled’ in the Commandment to Love, --- then, in His followers  there had to be ‘conversion’ from the human nature, which is self-centered, --- to the new nature, which is God centered.
--- This new nature is a ‘cleansed vessel’ as expressed in the previous post,
“Presenting the body as a living sacrifice --- (it is a sacrifice of ‘self’ to the service of God), --- and then being renewed in mind and Spirit, to be a vessel of love, expressing the love of God to others.

Therefore there was good practical teaching given to the new Churches, and it is still taught the same way in our Churches today, as this in Galatians 5:
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Many Christians stumble on v 26, being conceited, comparing and envying others, so the more one applies the principle of Love, --- the easier it is to stay close to God.

--- I like these verses in Surah 5 which tell us that the Christians were in harmony with Muhammad:
82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84. “What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.


Placid

[placid]

Hi,

I have taken some liberty in showing some of the basic teaching we receive, and give, in our Churches, --- and I look for the comparable and compatible verses  in the Quran, which leads me to believe that there was no great division between Muhammad and what the Christians already believed.

Muhammad began to teach his family and friends what God had revealed, and it was after three years that God instructed him to preach publicly his faith in One God. --- When the Qureysh found out they could not discourage, or dissuade him, they tried other tactics
When the small band of believers that followed Muhammad were threatened and persecuted by the idolaters in Mecca, Muhammad advised, “That as many as could possibly contrive to do so should emigrate to Abyssinia, a Christian country where they would not be hindered in their worship of One God.”
They remained in Abyssinia for some 15 years before moving to Madinah to join the growing Muslim community there.

--- (The first part of this information is recorded in the ‘general introduction’ to Mr Pickthall’s Translation, and this second part is in the intro to Surah 19):
--- ‘When the Negus (king) of Abyssinia asked the refugees concerning their religion and what they believed, Ja’far ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet, responded.
He first gave an intro of who they were and their former lifestyle as idolaters. He mentioned their leader Muhammad and said, “So we trusted him and we believed in him and followed that which he had brought from Allah, and we worshiped Allah only and ascribed nothing as partners unto Him.” (There is more, but I shortened it to this.)

Then the Negus asked him, “Hast thou with thee ought of that which he brought from Allah?” Ja’far answered, “Yes.” Then the Negus said, “Relate it to me.” --- And Ja’fer related to him the beginning of Surah 19.”
This begins with the angel Gabriel’s message to Zechariah and the birth of John the Baptist, then the conception of Mary and the Virgin birth of Jesus.
--- He perhaps recited at least verses 1-36, to give the whole message, --- which would prove them to be harmonious with the Christians.  
--- Mr Pichthall added, “Therefore this Surah must have been revealed and well known before the departure of the emigrants for Abyssinia.”

I believe that Muhammad’s wife, Khadijah, was a Christian and she encouraged Muhammad to follow God’s revelations, in leading him to become a messenger to his own people.
--- And Muhammad’s message included --- ‘Surrender unto God, the God of creation,' --- ‘Follow the faith of Abraham,’ and --- ‘Believe the Gospel.’

I read uplifting passages in the Quran which encourage me to continue studying, like these verses in Surah 29:
44. God created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): verily in that is a Sign for those who believe.
45. Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of God is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And God knows the (deeds) that ye do.
46. And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam, surrender)."
47. And thus (it is) that We have sent down the Book to thee. So the People of the Book believe therein, as also do some of these (pagan Arabs): and none but Unbelievers reject our signs.
48. And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.
49. Nay, here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.

However, I read that the beautiful verse 46 had been abrogated and replaced, so I looked it up on  “List of Abrogations in the Quran - Wikislam.”
--- And I was quite disappointed with what they replaced it with.

29:46. And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; ...

It has been replaced by this (out of context) verse:
9:49. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


Placid

[UmmAhmad]

Son of Placid, on 11 August 2011 - 12:46 AM, said:

Actually I've never heard a word out of a Minister or Paster. Christians believe Jesus was the last so anything after is false, no fuss, just false. Islam gets a bad rep from terrorists. no surprise there.

Not necessarily true, as some Christian Protestants have their own prophet/s. The Mennonites have Menno Simon, The Mormons have Joseph Smith, The Seventh-Day Adventists have Ellen G White, etc.