294 replies to this topic

[placid]

Continued from former Post:


2:7. “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8. But you have departed from the way,
You have caused many to stumble at the law,
You have corrupted the covenant of Levi.” Says the LORD of hosts.
9. “Therefore, I also have made you contemptible and base
Before all the people, because you have not kept My ways
But have shown partiality in the law.”

3:8. “Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say,
‘In what way have we robbed you?’ In tithes and offerings.
13. Your words have been harsh against Me. Yet you say
‘What have we spoken against You?’
14. “You have said, ‘It is vain to serve God,
What profit is it that we have kept His ordinance,
And that we have walked as mourners before the LORD of hosts.’
15. So now we call the proud blessed, for those who do wickedly are raised up;
Yes, those who tempt God go free’”

--- The Priests had rejected any Spiritual guidance from God so they had developed the worldly attitude (14-15) --- that the wicked and devious prosper, while the religious people go about like mourners because they have no joy.

--- And because they had rejected God, God had rejected them, so God would bring in a new covenant to be for all people.

--- As well as the Prophecy from Jeremiah 31, --- this prophecy is given in Malachi  3:
1. “Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord whom you seek shall suddenly come to His temple
Even the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight.
Behold, “He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.

--- The first messenger refers to John the Baptist. And the second Messenger refers to Jesus.

(I am sorry, this has taken a few Posts to explain, but I will conclude soon.)


Placid

[Izrail]

As a Christian, with a rudimentary, mostly self taught perception, I view Mohammed, pbuh, (when in Rome do as Romans do ) as a singularly wise and sublime man. I look at his suffering and hardships prior to his eventual victory as equally hard to the tribulations of the early christian community. His grace and perseverance in the face of such adversity is definitely admirable and paralells much with the message of early Christianity. I find alot in his teachings and example to be lauded, but in my mind, nothing all that iredeemably different from what I was taught as a Christian. I also have a favorable view of the Ahlulbayt, particularly Ali, learning about him and following his example  helped me be a better Christian, if that makes any sense.

titumir, on 10 August 2011 - 02:55 PM, said:

The views will not be pretty. Non Muslims believe that our Prophet(PBUH) was a violent terrorist who forced people to convert to Islam by the sword, and that is why Islam was/is as successful as it is. They get taught this in their churches and temples and synagogues.

12 years of Catholic schooling, going to Catholic church damn near every sunday and holy days til I was 17, as well as church on vacation in different parts of the US and never heard a word said about Islam, good or bad, outside of world religion classes. And even then it was a rudimentary discussion on your faiths tenets and beliefs, so as to foster better understanding and communal peace amongst Abrahamic faiths. I heard alot of discussion about the sins of abortion, war and social injustice, but never anything about Mohammed the terrorist. I suggest you broaden your search of what Christians are taught about your religion, as your particular narrative is alarmingly skewed towards the negative.

I'm well aware that there are some high visibility false prophet "televangelists" that are unfairly critical of Islam, and say some outrageous offenses, mostly to grab headlines as that keeps their pockets lined.  Surely you are smart enough to know that they are few and far between when weighed against the masses of clergymen and pastors of various denominations that preach charity, brotherhood and peace. That would be like me saying a hardline wahabi (redundant?) speaks for all of Islam.

[placid]

Hi Izrail,

I can share your admiration for Muhammad and his Mission, as well as your attirude towards the Muslims.

They expect that we reject them and the devil works hard to do his work of division.

Many Christians who have not taken time to read and study anything about the history of Islam, voice their reaction to the terrorist activities, and the hatred that is promoted, --- but they know nothing about the revelations given to and through Muhammad that confirm the former Scriptures and that give the history of the Gospel and the ministry of Jesus, as found in Surahs, 2, 3, 5, and 19, to mention a few.

I say to Christians, "Read the Quran for yourself, and don't believe what is said about it."

Sad to say, so-called Muslims have moved away from believing the Quran and follow their favourite hadiths, so that again adds confusion.

I am sure there are many true believers in the Qur5an who want to 'live and let live,' --- but they are for the most part silent.


Blessings

Hi Shi,

--- (Sorry to be slow in continuing, I was offline for a few days.)


I want to draw some conclusions concerning the Jews.

Since the priests had defiled the sacrifices and the Temple, they were openly rejecting God.
And because of their many sins, God had rejected them.

As well as the priests, the people were into the worship of Baal, and harlotry.
--- In Hosea 2 it records this concerning Israel, where God said:
13. “I will punish her for the days of the Baals to which she burned incense.
She decked herself with her earrings and Jewelry and went after her lovers.
Then she forgot Me,” says the LORD.

The devil had deceived them from before the years of their captivity so that they were astray from God, except for the righteous ones mentioned in Malachi 3:
16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another,
      And the LORD listened and heard them;
      So a book of remembrance was written before Him
      For those who fear the LORD
      And who meditate on His name.
       17 “They shall be Mine,” says the LORD of hosts,
      “On the day that I make them My jewels.

I had said that ‘not understanding prophecy’ was one of the deceptions that the devil uses.
The prophecies contain future promises that confirm the promises that God made to Abraham and the various Prophets that lived before them.
These prophecies give hope to the people and give them further understanding as the prophecies are fulfilled in their generation.
--- However, if they don’t follow the prophecies, then they have no hope for the future with God, and begin to rely on their own judgment.  

Because people had lost hope in God through their own disobedience, they turned to idols, --- and the devil is quick to provide the idols of the people around them, (this is what happens in every generation when the devil can turn people away from God).
--- They become self-centered and perhaps delve into science and psychology which fills the gap of religion, --- and the devil can lead them on, as long as it is in a direction away from God.

--- However, in their divisions, and separation, the Jews seem to retain one thing
With the Jews, --- since the covenant was made with Abraham, and the promises were given to the Prophets to eventually deliver the Jews, --- they believe they are still “God’s Chosen People” even after their rejection of Him.

Therefore, --- The big deception of the devil is that the Jews have believed that ‘they have the Oracles of God, therefore, they are the only ones that are right.’

This is how division in religions work --- though the Jews ignored the prophecies of blessing and cursing, for their actions and attitudes, --- they continued with a feeling of superiority, because of their history and heritage

This is really what happened with their rejection of Muhammad and his teaching, was it not?

I understand that it was the Jews of Yathrib that recognized Muhammad as a Prophet when some heard him speak at the “Pilgrimage’ in Mecca, and they invited him to come to Yathrib (Al-Madinah).
It seems the Jews expected him to favor them, but when he began to teach about the ‘fellowship of believers,’ --- which could make the lowliest Arab shepherd equal to the Jews, they took offence, and began to oppose Muhammad and his message. This is borne out in their attitude and actions in Surah 5:41-43.

So, the devil’s deception, --- rather than an attitude of humility befor God, --- an attitude of superiority before men.


Placid

[placid]

(To continue from above),

--- Something that was a turning point in the relationship between Muhammad and the Jews is revealed in this verse in Surah 2:
144. We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is God unmindful of what they do.

Notice that Muhammad turned his face to the heavens for guidance, --- while it had been customary to face Jerusalem. While Muhammad faced Jerusalem in prayer, the Jews still felt that they had influence over him. ---

When he was instructed to face the sacred Mosque in Mecca (even though at that time it had some 360 idols in it), --- and it became known that the Muslims faced Mecca, --- it provoked the Jews to further criticism of Muhammad.

146. The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.
147. The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt.
148. To each is a goal to which God turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, God will bring you Together. For God Hath power over all things.

--- These verses compare to Surah 5:48, do they not?

But in this verse in Surah 2, God said, ‘It is not a matter of where you face when you pray, but of your Faith in God and His word, and the attitude of the heart.’

177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness - to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Apostles; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.

This reveals the different response of the opposing Jews --- and the Christians, --- to the revelations given through Muhammad. While the Jews were of those who opposed the teaching of Muhammad, though they ‘recognize the revelation even as they recognize their own sons,’ --- ‘but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.’

This is what it says about the Christians in Surah 5:
82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84. "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
87. But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- You see, what God was revealing through Muhammad were the truths that Christians already believed. --- So they recognized that they could have harmony with the Muslim believers, which they never had with the Jews.

--- And God’s promise is given in 85: Because of their saying (their belief in the truth) their reward will be “Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherin they will abide forever. That is the reward of the good.

--- I have studied this in the Quran, and realized that the revelations to Muhammad were the teaching of the former OT Scriptures, plus the NT teaching of the virgin birth and the ministry of Jesus in Surahs 3 and 19 --- as well as approval for believing Christians, --- and the promise of heaven to Christians, as in verses 85 and 86.

--- Because of this and more my non-Muslim view of Muhammad is of the highest.

He was God’s messenger and servant to deliver Arabia from idolatry and return them to Faith in One God.

My desire is that believing Muslims today will re-read the Quran with a healthy attitude, and realize that the devil is our mutual enemy and not each other.


Placid

Edited by placid, 10 January 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[placid]

I had said previously:
In studying the Scriptures I find that there are three major subjects that are greatly ignored by most religious groups. They are these:
The understanding of prophecy (which is sometimes interwoven in the text).
The work of the Holy Spirit (which seems to be unknown to Muslims).
And the work of the evil one, Iblis, Satan (who made his intentions known in Surah 7).

Prophecy reveals the Wisdom of God, as it says:
“For prophecy came not by the will of man, but Holy men of God spoke as they were moved (inspired) by the Holy Spirit.”

The unspiritual person does not recognize the Holy Spirit that indwells believers, so what is written in prophecy is only acknowledged by other believers, who also have the Holy Spirit.

When Isaiah gave prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah through a virgin birth some 700 years before it happened, --- he wouldn’t understand himself, what was revealed to him through the Holy Spirit.
--- However, he recorded it, and in due time, the prophecy was fulfilled.

In Matthew 2, when the Wisemen came to Jerusalem to see the fulfillment of God’s promise of the coming Messiah, they came to King Herod and said:
“Where is He who is born ‘King of the Jews,’ for we have seen His star and have come to worship Him?
Herod called the scribes and Pharisees and asked them where the Christ was to be born.

They brought the prophecy of Micah from some 500 years before and said,
“In Bethlehem Ephratah,”
--- This Bethlehem was the City of David, which is still there.
There was another Bethlehem in northern Israel, but you can see how exact God was in prophecy.

You would think that the Scribes and Pharisees would have recognized God’s fulfillment of prophecy and believed it, --- however, because they were so steeped in their religion, they opposed Jesus and His miracle ministry as recorded in Surah 3:49 and 5:110.
They plotted to kill Jesus, thinking that if they killed the leader of the Christians, it would stop the new religion that was developing.
--- (Was this not also the reasoning of the Qureysh in plotting to kill Muhammad?}

I want to mention one more rejection by the Jews.
In Surah 2, from 63-66 it is reminding the Jews in Madinah of the sins of the past, how they broke the Sabbath and made a golden calf (also mentioned in Surah 4:153-155).
67-71 deals with an OT sacrifice of a spotless heifer (from which the Surah is named), from Numbers 19.
Then 72 says, “   And (remember) when ye slew a man and disagreed concerning it and Allah brought forth that which ye were hiding.    
73. So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.

SherAli: 73. Then WE said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.

The Muslim translator and commentator, Maulana, says that ‘compare’ can be used, as it is here, and refers to the martyrdom of Jesus Christ and being brought back to life, giving other Signs through this incident that God can raise the dead.

This is written in the NT in the sight of the scribes and Pharisees, --- and again you would think that they would not deny that Jesus came as their Messiah.

Their reaction was this in verse 74:
Thenceforth were your hearts hardened: They became like a rock and even worse in hardness. For among rocks there are some from which rivers gush forth; others there are which when split asunder send forth water; and others which sink for fear of God. And God is not unmindful of what ye do.

I want to show the evidence from the NT which proved why God rejected the Jews, and in AD 70, the Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed.


Placid



To continue from above Post about the hardness of the Jews concerning Jesus death and resurrection.

Here is what is recorded in Matthew 28:
(The Pharisees wanted to be sure that the tomb was sealed where Jesus was buried, so they asked to have soldiers guard the tomb till after the third day, when Jesus said He would rise again.)
28:1  Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
² And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.
³ His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
⁴ And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
--- Notice this, --- the guards saw it and were overwhelmed. --- They were perhaps transfixed as though they were dead.

¹¹ Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened.
¹² When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers,
¹³ saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’
¹⁴ And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.”
¹⁵ So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day. --- (Meaning the day of the writing of the Gospel.)

Imagine the ‘stony hearts’ that the Pharisees had (who were the leaders of Judaism)
The Guards reported to them.
They bribed them with money.
Told the soldiers to lie and tell the ridiculous story that the disciples had come and stole Jesus’ body while they slept.
--- (The penalty from sleeping on duty would have been death.)
“And if it comes to the governor’s ears, we shall appease him and make you secure.

To try and promote their lie they would bribe the governor, too.

Does that not reveal how far they were from God, and why He rejected them?
Let me recap on the three points I started with:
They did not believe the prophecy and did not recognize the fulfillment.
They did not understand the work of the Holy Spirit in their midst.
They were tools in the devils hands to plot murder, --- and to see it carried out, --- and know that God had intervened to raise Jesus from the dead, --- then bribed the soldiers,
Paying them to tell a lie, --- and preparing to bribe the governor too, if necessary.

I had said earlier that:
  Two of the major effective methods that the devil uses are: --- division among people, so that they divide into factions.
--- And idolatry, which is an attempt to draw attention away from God and unto forms of God’s creation.
--- With the Pharisees, they were their own ‘idols’ because of their position and authority.
--- And the deceptive ‘end result’ of both division and idolatry is the feeling that, “We are right, therefore, everyone else has to be wrong.”

The unbelieving Jews still feel that they are the ones in right standing with God, do they not?
They reject the NT and Christian teaching.
--- And this is the reason they felt that they were above the believing Arabs when Muhammad declared the ‘brotherhood of believers.’


Placid

[placid]

Hi,

Now I would like to continue to examine the problems that developed with the new religion, --- Christianity.

While I have written a lot about the Christians in relationship to the Jews, I will move ahead in the next Post to some of the problems that developed some 270 years after the time of Jesus.
But first, some background:

The great ‘event’ that followed the resurrection and ascension of Jesus was the Day of Pentecost. --- It was a feast day which was fifty days after Passover.  And it was a celebration commemorating the giving of the Law to Moses on Mount Sinai.
Jews gathered from all over the world to celebrate it in Jerusalem.

Over the years the Jews had been disperses from Jerusalem to different countries, as in the Assyrian captivity in 825 BC. --- Those who were taken there did not return to Israel but continued to live in the foreign land. --- In the Babylonian captivity of 600 BC there were many who did not return to Jerusalem when Cyrus released them and sent them back with the treasures that Nebuchadnezzar had taken, --- and Cyrus gave them provisions to rebuild the Temple. --- Other Jews had settled in Rome and other places doing business, etc.

If you care to read Acts chapters 1, 2, and 3, you will see the beginning of the spread of the Gospel to the world. The list of nations in Acts 2:5-12, who witnessed the result of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, were from the then known world. Most of them were visitors at the Feast, and would return to their homes within days or weeks.

--- They heard the ones that spoke in the language of their birth, glorifying God, and they heard Peter reveal God’s word by the power of the Holy Spirit that now indwelt him, --- on the first day there were some 3000 believers added to them. --- And each day more believers were added, --- so when they returned to their home, they were the first missionaries to tell the “Good News of Salvation,” which is what ‘Gospel’ means, to their own families and community back home..

This fulfills the OT prophecy that the Message of the coming Messiah would be given to ‘The Jew first.’
Jesus taught the Jews. --- All of the Apostles were Jews. --- All of the writers of the NT were Jews except Luke, who was Greek, and travelled with Paul, ending up in Rome, where Mark and Peter had already been ministering for some years. --- Luke, who wrote his Gospel for the Greek readership, also wrote the Book of Acts.
--- The Apostles moved out from Jerusalem to different areas as they were persecuted by the Jews. --- The Jerusalem Church was pastored by James, the brother of Jesus, and he was later killed by the Jews.

The Roman government didn’t stop the Jewish persecution of Christians, as they were afraid the Christians would become too strong, so they also, were looking for ways to control them.
In AD 70, the Romans betrayed the Pharisees in Jerusalem and moved to destroy the Great Temple, which they did.

They took all the gold and valuables and destroyed all the family records and Genealogies of the tribes when they burned it.
Between 30 AD and 70 AD the missionaries like Paul and Barnabas and the traveling Apostles spread the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Two things had happened that were significant:
One was, when Alexander the Great was in power, he spread the Greek language to all of the countries he controlled, so Greek became a common working language, or ‘language of commerce’ between countries, as it continued to be taught. --- So the Gospel was spread in Greek, and the NT was written in Greek.

The second thing was the destruction of the Jewish Temple, --- because Judaism had failed to represent God to the people.
The New Covenant (agreement, or testament) was given, which was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34, --- and was fulfilled in Hebrews 8:7-13.

Because the Temple in Jerusalem had been the ‘Center of Worship’ for Christians as long as they were allowed in Jerusalem, it was now gone, and the local Church in each city and town became the new ‘Center of Worship’ for each locality.
--- Churches had Ministers, Elders, and Deacons, but they had no Hierarchy, or controlling body. --- They worshipped God and prayed to Him. They followed the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, --- and glorified Jesus as their Savior and Messiah. ---

They followed the structure of the New Testament Church in the Acts of the Apostles.
They still struggled against opposition, but they flourished as they followed the Lord and His guidance through the Holy Spirit.
The ‘Church Fathers’ followed the Apostles and the Churches continued to be established this way till about 300 AD.

(I will continue with the problems that developed.)


Placid

[placid]

(To continue)

I had said that most groups don’t recognize the devil and his patterns of deception. --- And the failure of the Jews would begin to repeat itself within the Christian Church. --- The devil is our enemy.

When God chose the Hebrew nation He said, I will be your God and you will be My people.”
He also said, “If you walk in My ways and are obedient you will be blessed, but if you are disobedient, you will suffer consequences.”

--- Samuel had been a good Prophet and Judge for many years in Israel, but in 1 Samuel 8:
4. Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah.
5. And said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make for us a king to judge us like all the nations.

--- (This was the difference between Israel and other nations. God was their King, rather than having an earthly king, like the other nations.)
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7 And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also.
9 Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”
10 So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who asked him for a king.

11 And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots.
12 He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.
14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants.
15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants.
16 And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work.
17 He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants.
18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day.”
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us,
20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”

So to choose a king and allow him to form a government of men, was to reject God as their leader.

--- (Notice the similarity to governments even today. The king, or governor, employs a lot of people, including an army for protection and then extracts 10%, or more in taxes to pay for it all. Then when war comes, they conscript more people and ask more in taxes, to pay for their war.)
--- (God’s way was simply to have Prophets to relate God’s word to the people, and have priests who would faithfully minister to them. When war came, then God would call them and guide them to victory, if it was His war.)

To have an earthly King, even over the Prophets, was to take the focus away from God and place it on the earthly kingdom, --- therefore, on man, no longer on God.
--- This was the beginning of Israel’s long history of good kings and bad kings that led to the division of the 10 northern Tribes, called Israel, and the two tribes called Judah.

--- It was from the name Judah that the name ‘Jew’ came. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not Jews, --- they were Hebrews, which was a name taken from an ancestor of a number of generations named Eber, --- or from a word meaning ‘to cross over,’ --- referring to Abraham, who ‘crossed over’ from Ur of the Chaldees and followed God’s leading to Canaan, the ‘Promised Land,’ where they settled.--- They were also called Israelites, being descendants of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel.

When Jesus came to bring the people back to God and reveal God’s plan of Salvation. He gathered disciples and followers --- and taught them to believe in God and His word, --- and to be leaders, but not to be ‘lords’ over others. --- The pattern of leadership went back to following God and His guidance --- Jesus was their guide and leader, and the Servant of God.  Surah 4:172.

He told them He would be leaving them, and the promise was given that God’s Holy Spirit would come on each believer, and then they would be leaders of others, --- not as a ‘king’ or hierarchy over others, --- but rather, they were to be ‘servants’ to the ones they ministered to.
God was again their King, --- and Jesus, who was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God, was their Savior/Messiah. --- After Jesus ascended to heaven, then the Holy Spirit that was given in Acts 1 and 2, was their indwelling Guide, --- so they were restored to again having God as their King, --- and Apostles as their Prophets.

--- God led them in peace and harmony with the message of God’s salvation, which they were to share with others..


Placid

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

This guy speaks alot but says nothing.

[placid]

Hi,

I realize that I write quite a little but to understand how the devil deceives us we must see the patterns of the past, or we will be victims of the same deception.
As someone said, “He who doesn’t learn from the mistakes of the past is destined to repeat them.”

As I said, in the history of Christianity, the true teaching of the Apostles was carried on by the Church Fathers, --- Churches were established, and there was continuing opposition from the Roman Government. --- Changes take place gradually, and it happened that by about 300 AD the Church leaders were becoming less spiritual and more political, as influence came from the government to have some agreement with them.

It seemed that the Roman Government had been able to co-exist with the scribes and Pharisees in Judaism, --- but they were somewhat wary of the Christian movement which had grown far and wide over the years.
--- They seemed to agree with the compromising Church leaders on a mixture of Judaism and Christianity, and the result was, ‘The Roman Catholic Church.’

The new Church was structured like that of Judaism with a hierarchy of priests, and a high priest whom we know as ‘the Pope.’
The Pope was to represent Christ on earth, so it was the same scenario as in the days of Samuel when the Jews said, “Give us a king to reign over us.” --- Now the “so-called” Christian Church rejected God as their King, and Jesus as their teacher, and the Holy Spirit as their guide, --- and they moved to a ‘leadership’ of men.

The Church leaders would interpret the Scriptures, since they had rejected God’s leadership, and the Pope would be the final word.
--- (I understand that this is the explanation of the Pope’s ‘infallibility’ --- as a man, he is not infallible, but when the hierarchy of the Church agree on some doctrine or ruling, the Pope makes the announcement and supposedly, his ‘word’ is considered to be ‘infallible.’)

The proof that this new Church formation was not from God was evidenced in the fact that they wrote doctrines about what the Church believed and they began to persecute and kill Evangelicals who followed the NT teaching, and did not conform to their new doctrine.

--- The Evangelicals and groups of believers in various parts of the Roman Empire were opposed by the new ‘Catholic’ Church. --- The word ‘catholic’ means ‘universal,’ --- and the Church took that name for themselves, and had the power of the Roman Government behind them, --- so as the ‘Roman Catholic Church,’ they could dominate other Churches and could remove their leaders by imprisonment or death
--- (Kind of like the Caliphs did to the ‘Twelvers.’)

In 325 AD in a meeting, the Church leaders interpreted the ‘Godhead’ in the Nicene Creed, --- which has been a divisive doctrine. It is not Scriptural and is a result of ‘faulty interpretation’ (which the devil gladly promotes).  

As well as the Pope considered to be the representative of Christ on earth, --- as the High Priest was the representative of God in Judaism, --- they added more.
--- The priests were considered to be ‘holy’ so they would take a vow to be ‘celibate,’ --- They would become ‘monks’ and study the Scriptures and their doctrines. --- In being ‘celibate,’ which is against nature, --- when they became priests, they were to be addressed as ‘father.’

Those who were not allowed to marry and have children, or know family like, were the ones who were to be the marriage counselors and family advisers.  
They encouraged others to have children, but they couldn’t have any themselves.

--- This was certainly not God’s plan, --- and something else is stated plainly in the Quran in Surah 57. --- This can apply only to the Roman Catholic Church, which established their Monasteries perhaps 250 years before Muhammad.

57:27. (Pickthall): Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. But Monasticism they invented - We ordained it not for them - only seeking Allah's pleasure, and they observed it not with right observance. So We give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers.


Placid

[placid]

(To continue from above)

Surah 57:27. (Yusuf Ali). Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of God; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.

--- To analyze this we can see how the devil sidelined the dedicated men from God’s purpose by the institution that men ‘invented.’

Following early Prophets and Messengers, God sent Jesus, who preached the ‘good news’ of Salvation through the Gospel.

The indwelling Holy Spirit inspired compassion and mercy for others and the desire to witness to the Gospel Message. Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.”

--- ‘But the MONASTICISM which they invented for themselves, We (God) did not prescribe for them.’
The Roman Catholic Church built Monasteries where their enthusiastic young men who should have been witnessing publicly, or speaking in the Churches of their faith, were secluded in monasteries, supposedly to study and learn, or be monks who were to be so dedicated to God that they didn’t speak much at all.

--- (See the contrast? --- While they should have been out in public sharing their faith, they were undergoing an unnatural lifestyle of a monk in seclusion in order to become closer to God.)  --- See how the devil can sideline God’s purposes.

--- “We (God) commanded only the Good Pleasure (in obedience) to God, but they did not foster (observe or practice) it as they should have done.
--- So We (God) rewarded the righteous, --- but many are transgressors or ‘evil livers.’

--- God didn’t ordain that men who were considered ‘holy’ should remove themselves from society and dwell privately with other men.

--- We have seen and heard how men in secluded environments pair off and become immoral. --- When men become immoral they compromise or lose their faith. --- The devil is the author of this, not God.

Other things that became doctrines or practices in the Church were unscriptural.
They introduced the ‘crucifix’ with a body on it which symbolizes the ‘death of Jesus,’ --- but the Power of the Gospel was in the ‘resurrection from the dead.’

With the Nicene Creed they exalted Jesus to being ‘equal’ with God, --- then they considered since Mary was the mother of Jesus, then Mary was the ‘mother of God.’  --- Some Catholic prayers include the words “Holy Mary, mother of God, blessed be the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”  

--- This then diminished Jesus and made him lower than Mary, and Mary was of course a ‘saint’ who was ‘venerated.’ --- There is a fine line between veneration and worship.  --- In the Quran there is a mention of the ‘three’ being, God, Mary, and Jesus.

Later some thought that Mary would be more popular if it was taught that she remained a virgin all of her life, rather than having other children after Jesus.

There are other things I could mention but this is sufficient to show the reason why Martin Luther wanted to bring the Church back to righteousness.

I can apologize to the Catholics who may read this, but this was how the devil led the Church away from the New Testament Church in the Acts of the Apostles.

--- There have been many reforms in their Church over the years so that the Roman Catholic Church of today has true believers as well as those who follow traditions and misconceptions.

Yes, Christianity had ‘growing pains’, and there are still more.


Placid

[placid]

--- To continue on the Church:

The Roman Catholic Church, following the pattern of Judaism with their ‘hierarchy,’ which could co-exist with the Roman Government, --- in many countries,  became the ‘State Church,’ --- and the Evangelicals continued to have local Churches, --- sometimes under heavy persecution, sometimes under less.

The Bible and New Testament had been translated into the languages of the people before 400 AD, and the Scholar, Jerome, had completed his translation in Latin, so the Church had the Scriptures in Latin, which the Roman Catholic Church used from 400 – 1600, when the Scriptures were translated into English in the Douay-Rheims Translation, --- or, the Douay Bible, which I have a copy of.

Through the ‘dark ages’ more doctrines and teachings were added to the Church.

--- It was taught that since the Bible came out of the Church, the Scripture was at par with the Church, so I suppose that all new doctrines were considered a continuation of spiritual instruction.

--- (However, the Canon of Scripture was well established before the Roman Catholic Church was instituted, so the Scriptures were preserved in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, and not changed by the Church, --- the true teaching of Scripture was simply being ignored, and replaced with ‘doctrines of the devil.’)

--- They taught that you could ‘buy’ your salvation. --- That since Jesus and Mary were basically ‘equal,’ they could be worshiped or venerated, which took the focus away from God, the Creator, and gave no place for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. --- Yet maintaining that they were ‘The Church.’

They also developed ways that would promote loyalty to the Church, plus bring in more donations. --- Church attendance was necessary, or you could be lost. --- There was a complicated teaching of ‘penance’ and ‘indulgences’ --- and confession of sins to a priest who would give ‘absolution for sin’ --- and the doctrine of ‘purgatory’ (from the root word ‘purge,’ meaning, to cleanse).
‘Purgatory’ was supposedly the place where disobedient or unfaithful Catholics went, --- with the opportunity for friends and loved ones to say prayers for them in the Church, --- or pay for a priest to pray for them. --- In addition the Church sold candles to be put on candleholders, so that the prayer you said for someone would continue as long as the candle burned, in hopes of ‘buying’ them out of ‘purgatory,’ and into heaven.

--- (Purgatory and prayer for the dead are not Scriptural.)

In the 1500’s there was a young monk named Martin Luther, who studied more than the Catholic doctrines and teaching, and began to list the differences in their present Church to what the New Testament Church taught.

In due time, since he had not gotten much attention from the Church, --- though some fellow students agreed with him, --- he nailed his “Ninety Five Thesis,” to the door of Wittenberg Chapel in Germany. --- These were the things that the Church was doing that were wrong and unscriptural.

While Martin Luther hoped to reform the Church from the inside and have “Revival,” --- which really means, ‘renewed life,’ --- he was met with the threat of excommunication and death.

He was treated after the pattern of men who have lost their way spiritually and wanted to protect what they had developed.
--- It was the reaction of The Pharisees to Jesus, --- and the reaction of the Qureysh to Muhammad, --- and now the ‘State Church,’ --- rather than wanting to acknowledge the faults of the Church, --- rejected Martin Luther.

By this time many were supporting him, and he continued to speak of Church reform. --- When pressure came on him and threats of death, there were those who would have taken up arms against the Church, --- But Martin Luther said something to the effect that, “To take up arms to gain the ‘peace,’ would defeat the purpose of Spiritual revival, and reformation.”  

--- This was the devil’s work again, to try to divert the good start towards ‘renewed Spiritual life in the Church’ --- to man’s method of solving differences.


Placid

[placid]

To continue:

Jesus said ,”Love one another as I have loved you.”
There were no wars between Christians in the time of the writing of the New Testament, and for many years thereafter.  
The New Covenant with Jesus was non-violent.

--- Jesus was asked in Acts 1, “Will you at this time restore the Kingdom to Israel?” --- Some were thinking of a military power to overthrow the Roman Government, --- But Jesus said,
1:7. “It is not for you to know the times or seasons that God has put in His own authority,
8. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

--- And the Holy Spirit was poured out upon them in Acts 2.
So, Jesus and the Apostles defeated their enemies through the power of the Holy Spirit that indwelt them, --- and Christianity continues to be basically non-violent to those who follow the Gospel teaching.

--- (I know what you are thinking, --- but wars, and the infamous ‘Crusades’ came out of the Roman Catholic Church after it was far from following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. --- While some of their conquest was justified, --- the atrocities were not.)


--- Muhammad was also peace loving and was somewhat reluctant to take a public role when God called him, but as his conviction grew, and with the encouragement of his wife, Khadijah, he became God’s prophet to his own people.
--- While he started out teaching his family and friends what God was revealing, after three years the Lord led him to speak publicly, and give the message that there is One God.
--- It was then that he met with opposition and was eventually forced into the defense of the renewed faith against the Meccan army and the Qureysh (his own tribe). --- But the strategy in winning battles against the well-equipped army --- was from God who also guided Joshua in destroying idolatry in Israel in the Book of Joshua.  

But Muhammad eventually won the ‘peace’ which he announced at his “Farewell Pilgrimage” in year ten of the Hijrah, shortly before his death

Martin Luther also suffered at the hands of the Church he wanted to reform.
While the Church rejected him, there were a great many that followed him, not only of his own countrymen, but across Europe.

As the people were looking to him for leadership he realized that he had to provide teaching, so he wrote two ‘Catechisms,’ --- one for children and one for adults. --- Catechism is a method of teaching where you use questions and answers.
Both Catechisms were based on five teachings from Scripture.

The Ten Commandments. --- Exodus 20.
The Sermon on the Mount, --- Matthew 5, 6, and 7.  
The Apostles’ Creed, --- (Not the faulty Nicene Creed).
The ordinance of Baptism
The observance of Communion.

On these five principles was the ‘Reformation’ based, which gave the Church a new start in the Scriptures, --- and in right relationship with God.
Church groups in other countries in Europe were adopting these principles and writing their own teaching material, and became different ‘Denominations.’

--- Though the ‘Reformation’ came from Martin Luther, and his followers became known as ‘Lutherans,’--- other Churches took the name of one of their leaders, or their country.

--- Since the devil couldn’t stop the movement of the renewed Church, the evil one tried his best to ‘defame’ the name in giving a negative connotation to the word ‘protestant.’ --- The movement was called the “Protestant Reformation.”
--- When we hear the word ‘protest’ we think of somebody being ‘against' something. --- We think of discord and violence and negative reaction
--- However, the prefix ‘pro’ is what you are ‘for,’ --- not what you are against.

In ‘pros and cons’ we understand it, --- but in ‘Protestants and Catholics’ it has a more negative sound.
Some Churches have used ‘Reformed’ in their name, --- and the Catholic Church has been ‘Reformed' as well, and in some places are much like ‘Protestant’ Churches, --- if we can say it that way.


Placid

[placid]

To continue with the problems of the Church through the years

The Church reformation continued in various countries after the pattern of Martin Luther’s format. --- Because of distance, they did not become ‘Lutheran Churches,’ but became 'Christian Churches' in their cities and towns, --- which started a new ‘revival’ of the Scriptures, and re-discovering of the power of the Holy Spirit to guide them individually, as well as to guide the leadership of the Churches.

The Churches became known by ‘denominations,’ --- which sometimes were identified by their emphasis on Spiritual Gifts. --- These denominations have grown and strengthened through the years. --- While there are many Churches of various kinds, the Evangelical Churches can usually trace back to some denomination, and to the pattern of the first Church in the Book of Acts.

--- The Roman Catholic Church continued in opposition to the Evangelicals through many years, Christian leaders were threatened, or killed, and though there were  some ‘reforms,’ within the Roman Catholic Churches, --- they maintained their hierarchy with their attitude of authority and ‘superiority.’

It has been taught that if you are a good ‘Church member,’ by their standards, then you will be saved, --- if you are a Church member who might be delinquent, then your soul may go to ‘purgatory’ and then others, still living, can pray for you.
--- Or they can light a candle in a Catholic Church, or Oratory, where they have them, to supposedly be a continual prayer as long as the candle burns.

This could be compared to the disbelievers of Surah 3, --- In fact, this may be what it is referring to, (a short stay in purgatory).

3:21. As to those who deny the Signs of God and in defiance of right, slay the prophets, and slay those who teach just dealing with mankind, announce to them a grievous penalty.
22. They are those whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the Hereafter nor will they have anyone to help.
23. Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of God, to settle their dispute, but a party of them Turn back and decline (The arbitration).
24. This because they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days": For their forgeries deceive them as to their own religion.
25. But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is no doubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice?

3:91.  As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting, - never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:
20. “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”

--- The hierarchy of the RC Church will perhaps be in the same category if their heart is not right in the sight of God.

There are many believers in the Catholic Church  who are genuine in their faith in God and in their acceptance of Jesus, so they may be saved by God’s grace according to the pattern of the NT Church.

Because of the ‘sins’ of the Church leaders many have ‘stalled’ in their faith, and have departed from their home Church. --- They have been taught how important worship is, --- so they have felt betrayed.  

  --- As I said before, --- the Jews felt that “they were the only ones,” --- and the Roman Catholic Church seems to believe that since their Church continued from the Apostles and NT saints, whose names are used freely, --- that they represent God on earth. --- In that sense they still believe that “they are the right ones”


Placid

[placid]

I have been offline for a while, but since this topic has continued to be read, I want to conclude Christianity.

The Roman Catholic Church made a formal apology in the 1990’s to the Lutheran Church, and therefore to the Christian and Evangelical Churches.
This was some 500 years after the time of Martin Luther and the Reformation.

In the 1980’s there had been revival in the Catholic Churches and many renewed their faith in God, others left the Catholic Church and joined with Evangelicals.

--- At this time there are different groups that fall under the Christian banner, but are not all ‘Bible believing’ Churches:
From the Roman Catholics to the Evangelicals there are different Denominations. --- Though there are multitudes of Churches with different names, there are not so many Denominations. --- The Churches that are fashioned after the first Church in the Book of Acts are basically the same. --- Some Churches emphasize the Spiritual gifts more than others, while all Evangelical Churches teach the Scriptures. --- There are nominal Churches where they preach a ‘social Gospel of well-being,’ --- and there are those who preach a ‘prosperity Gospel.’

--- There are groups that are identified with Christianity, like the Mormons, the Seventh day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Messianic Jews, the Messianic Muslims, --- and others.

In any and all Churches there must be faith in God and His message of the Gospel, --- the ‘Good News’ of salvation through accepting Jesus as Savior and Messiah, and receiving the Holy Spirit through submission to His will, --- otherwise, they are nominal Churches which offer no assurance of salvation.

The Message is easy to understand for believers.
--- Jesus came as a humble Servant to do God’s will. He suffered at the hands of men, though His main Message was, “Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind --- and love your neighbor as yourself.”

--- He was the Prophet which the Jews looked for, as it says in Acts 3:
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

--- His obedience and exaltation are recorded in Philippians 2:
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

--- This is emphasized again in the ‘Great Commission’ that Jesus gave to the Apostles when He met with them in Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

--- And this authority is finalized in 1 Corinthians 15:
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He (Jesus) must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

This is why in Christianity the great emphasis is on following Jesus.

--- And the Quran confirms this in Surah 3:
50. And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me.
51. Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a Straight path.


Placid

[placid]

Hi Shi,

I want to return to the first question, “What is the non-Muslim view of Muhammad?”


When I began reading the Quran perhaps 8 years ago I was pleased to find much of the history of Islam in the Pickthall translation, of which I have a copy.

When Muhammad was called through a vision of the angel Gabriel who began to reveal messages to him, --- it is similar to how Moses was called through the appearance of the Burning Bush, --- and the Lord speaking to him.

Muhammad was obedient to the call and accepted the Mission of removing idolatry from Arabia, and restoring faith in One God.
I accept Muhammad as a Prophet of God to his people in his generation and I have the highest regard for him as a person.
(This is not a view shared by many Christians as they have listened to the commentators who associate his name with terrorism, rather than with the ‘reformation’ that restored the Meccans, and surrounding people to faith in God.)

In his introduction to his translation Mr Pickthall wrote:
Quote: In the last ten years he destroyed idolatry from Arabia; raised women from the status of a chattel to complete legal equality with men; effectually stopped the drunkenness and immorality which had till then disgraced the Arabs: made men to live with faith, sincerity and honest dealing: transformed tribes who had been for centuries content with ignorance into a people with the greatest thirst for knowledge; and for the first time in history made universal human brotherhood a fact and principle of common law. And his support and guide in all that work was the Quran. --- End of quote.  

God used Muhammad to restore the Arab people to faith in God by surrendering their will to Him. --- The original meaning of ‘Jihad’ is the ‘inner struggle’ one goes through in submitting their life and will to God’s will and purpose, --- is it not?

Another thing I learned was that God did not use Muhammad to start a new religion, but to restore the people from the worship of the choice of some 360 idols in the Kabah, or ‘House of Prayer’ at Mecca, --- to the same surrender and obedience to God that is written of Abraham and his children in Surah 2:

130. And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.
131.  When his Lord said unto him: Surrender! he said: I have surrendered to the Lord of the Worlds.
132. The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
133. Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

And I understand that Al-Islam neans, ‘the surrender.’

[md. ammar ali]

in my jahilia time(before taking the decision to convert) i used to think that nabi muhammad saww was their (muslims) god just like many self proclaimed gods (babas) in hinduism

lol


it is only after the research that i found the truth and it is one of the main reason that i took this decision
hamdulillah

[placid]

Hi Varun,

Yes it is important to keep reading for yourself and not just believe what others say.

This forum offers us the opportunity to express our beliefs and our understanding of God.


When asked, "What is the Non-Muslim view of Muhammad?" --- I can assess it from a Christian point of view and see how similar Muhammad's faith and teaching is to what Jesus taught, because it comes from God. --- While most like to see differences or divisions, I like to see the comparisons.

In the Gospels Jesus said, "Follow Me." --- In the Quran Jesus said, "I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord so fear God and obey Me. God is My Lord and your Lord so worship Him. --- That is a Way that is straight." Surah 3:50-51.

If following Jesus is the straight Way, then we need not seek another way, but learn how to relate to others who may not share our faith.

Muhammad was an honorable man before God called him as his messenger to his own people.

The angel Gabriel related through Muhammad that Jesus, son of Mary was the Messiah, the Christ, --- so it is important to learn who He was, what He did, and why we should look forward to the promise that He is coming again,

[placid]

To continue with a Non-Muslim view of Muhammad,

As I began to read the Quran I took time to read the introduction to each Surah in the Pickthall Translation.
In Surah 2, entitled ‘The Cow,’ it refers to the ‘yellow heifer’ which relates back to Moses in the OT and a special sacrifice for ‘purification for sin.’

Then I read the part in the intro that set the tone for me to read the Quran with a mental attitude that was without prejudice.

I could set aside the fact that Saddam Hussain had invaded Kuwait, and the United Nations had intervened. --- The fact that foreign troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia disturbed some militants who saw Saudi Arabia as ‘sacred ground’ since it is the country of the holy site of Mecca.

This seemed to be what stirred Osama Bin Laden to oppose the great 'immoral' America, and make plans to fire bomb American embassies.
--- Then the major attack on the financial center by hijacking and commandeering planes to fly into the Twin Towers, plus other targets in the United States.  

--- This changed the world and caused the news media to condemn Islam.

While it was easy to agree with the negative sentiment I was praying for the leaders, that this would not escalate into  a wider conflict where the Arab nations would align with Bin Laden and condemn America, as the Government leaders, and news media were condemning Muslim terrorists.
--- (Really, when they become terrorists, they should not be called Muslims [surrendered ones], should they?)

In Prophecy we are warned that in the last days ‘there will be wars and rumors of wars.’ --- Jesus said in Matthew 24:
7. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.”  
--- And since what is commonly called, 9/11, the world has seen this prophecy fulfilled, --- and certainly with more of the same on the horizon.

As a student of the Scriptures and having an awareness of the prophecies of the ‘last days,’ --- which I believe we are in, my interest was to find out the reason why free people were in danger of the sneak attacks of terrorists.

Some years earlier, in an assortment of books I had found a Quran and I had put it on a shelf thinking someday I would read it, --- and in study, it is the proper practice to ‘go to the source,’ --- and in this case, the Quran, to see if it taught terrorism and aggression. --- Or was it a religion that taught faith in God and obedience to Him.

Then I read this, which gave me an unprejudiced view, --- in the intro to Surah 2:
Quote: All through the Surah runs the note of warning, which sounds indeed throughout the whole Quran, that it is not the mere profession of a creed, but righteous conduct, which is true religion. There is the repeated announcement that the religion of Abraham, to which Judaism and Christianity trace their origin, is the only true religion, and that that religion consists in the surrender of man’s will and purpose to the Will and Purpose of the Lord of Creation as manifested in His creation and revealed by way of guidance through successive Prophets. --- Of sincerity in that religion the true test is conduct, and the standard of that religion is for all alike. --- End of quote.

--- After I read this, and continued reading the Quran, I realized that Muhammad had received revelation that confirmed the former Scriptures, as it says in 3:3-4.


Placid

[placid]

(To continue)

In studying the Scriptures I find that there are three major subjects that are greatly ignored by most religious groups. They are these:
The understanding of prophecy (which is sometimes interwoven in the text).
The work of the Holy Spirit (which seems to be unknown to Muslims).
And the work of the evil one, Iblis, Satan (who made his intentions known in Surah 7).

--- (I had said this before and I want to see if it applies to Islam as well.)

After reading the Quran and having a high regard for Muhammad, I saw that in the intros to Surahs, there were four followers or ‘companions’ mentioned on certain occasions. --- (I will recount what I understand, and if I am wrong, please correct me.)

--- When the rulers of the idolaters in Mecca were aware that the Muslims were moving to Al-Madinah, they thought two things: --- First, it is good to get rid of them from Mecca, but, --- Secondly, if they allowed Muhammad to leave he might be more trouble to them from outside than he was while in their midst.

--- At that time murder was very serious to them so rather than have someone commit the crime, they plotted a way to kill him (kind of like the Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus), --- and they came up with the plan that if they took one man from each tribe to wait outside of his house on a given night, then when he came out, they would all be involved in killing him and it would be --- ‘a corporate crime,’ --- and perhaps they looked at it the way Caiaphas expressed it concerning Jesus, “It is expedient that one man should die for the people,” --- rather than that the whole nation should suffer, John 18:14.

God revealed their plans to Muhammad and he made preparations. --- He had Ali, his son-in-law, sleep in his bed so that they would see him asleep, and wait for him to come out.
--- Since he was their target he felt no harm would come to Ali, nevertheless, Ali showed his allegiance to Muhammad in risking his life at the hands of a group that were bent on murder.

Abu Bakr, who was an early believer, and who later became his father-in-law, was with Muhammad frequently, and on the night that the men waited outside Muhammad’s residence to kill him, Abu Bakr had horses waiting for them, to make their escape to Al-Madinah.
--- However, I have read that Muhammad walked out his front door, past his waiting attackers and made his way to where Abu Bakr was waiting.
--- (God can do this. He can blind the eyes or the mind of the enemy.)

They moved safely to Madinah, including Ali, and the Muslims increased in number. The Jews had revelations of a Prophet coming to the Arabs and they recognized Muhammad as that Prophet, so were favorable to him in the beginning. However, when Muhammad taught ‘the brotherhood of believers,’ that offended them because it would make the lowly Arab equal with the Jew.
--- The Jews felt that Muhammad showed allegiance to Judaism because the Muslims still faced Jerusalem when they prayed.

But God gave new instructions in Surah 2:
144.  We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is God unmindful of what they do.

--- It is evident that Muhammad had been turning his face upward to God for guidance. --- In this turning to Mecca it initiated the promise that Muhammad would one day return to his hometown of Mecca.

However, another verse of instruction was given in Surah 2:
177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness - to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Apostles; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.

Surah 2 was revealed in year 1 or 2 after the Hijrah, the move to Madinah, and it is repeated a few times during his teaching, so this was the ‘order of service’ for true believers.

As well as being part of his first teaching, it was part of his last teaching in Surah 9, revealed in year 9:
18. The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.
19. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in God and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of God? They are not comparable in the sight of God: and God guides not those who do wrong.
20. Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in God's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of God: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).

It was good to find that from the first year to the ninth year, Muhammad had not changed the message or his priorities concerning Faith in God and surrender to Hin in faithful service, in spite of criticism or persecution.


Placid

[placid]

To continue:

--- The Jews became critical of Muhammad’s message and tried to hinder him, so now, there were two potential enemies, --- The Qureysh army who would attach about once a year, and the internal opposition from the Jewish leaders.

It says this in Mr Pickthall’s intro that encouraged Muhammad:
Quote: In the sixth year the Prophet had a vision in which he found himself entering the holy place in Mecca unopposed, therefore he determined to attempt the Pilgrimage. --- Attired as pilgrims and taking with them the customary offering, a company of 1400 journeyed to Mecca. --- As they neared the holy valley they were met by a friend from the city who warned the Prophet Qureysh had put on their leopard-skins (the badge of valor) and had sworn to prevent his entering the sanctuary; their cavalry was on the road before him. --- On that the Prophet ordered a detour through mountain gorges and the Muslims were tired out when they came down at last into the valley of Mecca and encamped at a spot called Al-Hudaybiyah; from whence he tried to open negotiations. --- End of quote.

--- He tried one messenger, but was unsuccessful, so he looked for a messenger who would demand respect. Uthman was finally chosen because of his kinship with the powerful Umayyad family. --- This led to eventual positive results.
--- I believe this Uthman was the companion who became the Caliph and edited the Quran some years later. --- Is that correct?

--- Surah 61, “The Ranks,” seems to have been revealed in the sixth year in the valley of Mecca when they waited for the messenger, Uthman, to return.
Quote from intro: The news came that he had been murdered, it was then that the Prophet sitting under a tree in Al-Hudeybiyah, took an oath from all his comrades that they would stand or fall together. After a while, however, it became known that Uthman had not been murdered. --- End of quote.

'The Ranks' takes its name from verse 4:
Surah 61:4. Truly God loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array (ranks), as if they were a solid cemented structure.
5. And remember, Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do ye vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the apostle of God (sent) to you?"
6. And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me,
14. O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples, "We are God's helpers!" 3:52

In year 7 the Muslims were allowed three days in Mecca for their Pilgrimage, and in year 8 the Qureysh broke their truce by attacking a tribe that was in alliance with the Prophet and killing them, --- so, as a result Muhammad summoned all the Muslims who were capable of bearing arms and marched to Mecca.

--- His vision was realized because:
Quote: Qureysh were overawed,  their cavalry put up a show of defense before the town, but were routed without bloodshed; and the Prophet entered his native city as conqueror. --- The inhabitants expected vengeance for their past misdeeds.
The Prophet proclaimed a general amnesty. --- In their relief and surprise, the whole population of Mecca hastened to swear allegiance. The Prophet caused all the idols which were in the sanctuary to be destroyed, saying, “Truth has come, darkness has vanished away,” --- and the Muslim call to prayer was heard in Mecca. --- End of quote.

--- In the intro to Surah 9, which is called “Repentance,” which was revealed to Muhammad just before the Pilgrimage that year, --- and it seems that Muhammad did not go to the Pilgrimage, but this is recorded:
Quote: Verses 1-12, forming the proclamation of immunity from obligation toward the idolaters, were revealed after the pilgrims had started for Mecca in the ninth year of the Hijrah and sent by special messenger to Abu Bakr, leader of the Pilgrimage, to be read out by Ali to the multitudes at Mecca. It signified the end of idolatry in Arabia. --- End of quote.

--- This reveals the responsibility of Abu Bakr, --- and that Ali was the speaker at this major event. --- And later, Muhammad appointed Ali to be his successor.

--- (I was fascinated by this history of Muhammad and how God led him in returning to Mecca as well as showing compassion in forgiving the people and restoring Faith in One God, which was declared at the Pilgrimage in year 10.)


Placid

[placid]

To continue:

In my ‘Non-Muslim view of Muhammad,’ I have been drawn to Surah 9, which outlines the ‘Repentance’ --- or the removal of all the idolaters.
--- (Forgive me for commenting but I see this in year 9 as the beginning of the form of worship that should still prevail.)  

Idolatry is the one sin that God will remove completely because God said, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” Exodus 20:3
After this year no idolaters would be welcome at the Mosque, and if they didn’t convert, or leave the country, they would be in danger of being put to death as enemies.

--- (Then the conditions are explained):
9:13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Apostle, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

--- (It was these idolaters in Mecca that ‘took the aggressive’ action first and plotted to expel Muhammad, then in fact, plotted to kill him.
--- Now they were going to be expelled.)

14. Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
15. And still the indignation of their hearts. For God will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and God is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

--- (God is driving out idolatry at the hands of the believers, giving victory, and hopefully, healing the inner being of those who have every right to be prejudiced.
Notice that Muhammad granted amnesty to all [but hardened criminals] when he came into Mecca as a conqueror, so this forgiving attitude must prevail in order for the believers to be healed. --- God will turn [in mercy] to the forgiving heart.)

16. Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though God did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except God, His Apostle, and the (community of) Believers? But God is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.

--- (Since God knows the heart, Surah 50:16, --- He knows those who are believers and who give of themselves in His cause.)

17. It is not for such as join gods with God, to visit or maintain the mosques of God while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.

--- (It is not for idolaters to attend or do maintenance the Mosques. --- As idolaters they would come, since it would be a familiar place for them, and if they did work there as idolaters, they may have continued on their job. --- But it was mockery that one who believed in other gods could be true to the God of heaven, so, at this point everyone and everything associated with idolatry had to go.)

18. The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

--- (This is restating the revelation of this verse from year 1-2 of the Hijrah):
2:177.  It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness - to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Apostles; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.

--- (So in the beginning of his teaching at Madinah and again in year 9 the emphasis is on Faith in God, worship and prayer, and regular giving, --- which is an expression of gratitude to God.)

19. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in God and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of God? They are not comparable in the sight of God: and God guides not those who do wrong
20. Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in God's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of God: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).
21. Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:
22. They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in God's presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).

--- (So the order of service is: --- Faith in God and the Last Day, [the day of reward and punishment], surrender to His will and obedience to His guidance, expressed in charity and good works, which leads to eternal reward.)

This is why I have said that Muhammad didn’t start a new religion, but returned the people to the true model.
--- And this is very close to what believing Christians practice today.


Placid

[placid]

To continue from Surah 9:

28. O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

--- (Idolaters only are unclean, or are the ones to be eliminated.
This verse included a promise of God to compensate any loss from the expulsion of the idolaters, --- If they were faithful. --- ‘IF HE WILL,’ implies that God would bless them according to their faithfulness to Him.)

29. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

--- (The way this is written it might be misunderstood to mean that all who received the Scriptures need to be brought low, or under submission.)

This relates back to verse:
18. The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

--- So it is talking about ‘unbelievers,’ --- among Jews and Christians. If they didn’t believe in God --- and the Last Day --- and didn’t follow the restrictions of what Muhammad said was forbidden, --- then they were also enemies to the Religion of Truth --- however, it doesn’t say they have to be expelled, unless they rebelled against Muhammad’s authority, --- but they would have to be obedient, or brought under subjection to the rules, and must pay the obligatory tax.  

Sher Ali renders these verses this way:
28. O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean. So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you out of HIS bounty, if HE pleases. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.
29. Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection.

This does not mean, --- fight against the people of the Book (those who received the Scriptures), --- if they were submissive and paid their required taxes.

Usually ‘people of the Book,’ or, ‘those who received the Scriptures,’ referred to the Jews who opposed Muhammad’s teaching. These verses show a difference, as written in Surah 5:

82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84. What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86. But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- As believing Christians listened to Muhammad’s messages they recognized the Truth, so were in harmony with believing Muslims.
And God’s promise is to reward them in ‘their eternal home.’

--- (I find no verses in the Quran that say Christians rebelled against Muhammad, or where there were conflicts with Christians who lived in Arabia during Muhammad’s lifetime.)

Can anyone inform me of what caused the division between Muslims and Christians?


Placid

[placid]

To continue with a Non-Muslim view of the history:

I read about what happened after Muhammad passed away. --- There seemed to be some who thought that the Prophet wouldn’t die, but when Abu Bakr affirmed that Muhammad was dead, he gave praise to Allah and then said, “O people! Lo! As for him who used to worship Muhammad, Muhammad is dead, but as for him who used to worship Allah, Allah is alive and dieth not.”
He then recited this verse. 3:144. “And Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers the like of whom have passed away before him. Will it be that when he dieth, or is slain, you will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back does no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.”

Muhammad had appointed his son-in-law, Ali to be his successor, and Ali no doubt took over the duties of the Mosques. --- He took time to finalize his notes on the Quran that Muhammad had, which would be all of the Surahs, therefore, the original Quran. --- And then Ali delivered it to Abu Bakr and Umar (the fourth man with the three I mentioned above), --- but they rejected it, saying, “We have our own.” --- So Ali said, “Then you will never see this again.”

It seemed that the division began with this, and their rejection of Ali as Muhammad’s successor, and their desire seemed to be to take over the political leadership.

Also, it is reported that there were rivals to the leadership of ‘the companions of Muhammad,’ so, rather than casting themselves on God as Muhammad would have done, --- they seemingly opposed their rivals and ‘started hostilities.’
They may have expected God to give them victory as He did to Muhammad, --- but now they began to fight, not with the idolaters, but with their fellow Muslims.
Surah 2:90.  ‘Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.’

--- (I am not sure how the conflicts started, but I have read about their fierce battles. One reason was the rivalry for leadership, and the second was that some Muslims objected to paying their taxes ???)

Concerning the compiling of the Quran, Mr Pickthall  records in the intro to his translation:

Quote: All the Surahs had been recorded in writing before the Prophet’s death, and many Muslims had committed the whole Quran to memory. --- But the written Surahs were dispersed among the people; and when in a battle that took place during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr --- that is to say, within two years of the Prophet’s death --- a large number of those who knew the whole Quran by heart were killed, --- a collection of the whole Quran was made and put in writing. In the Caliphate of Uthman, all existing copies of Surahs were called in and an authoritative version, based on Abu Bakr’s collection and the testimony of those who knew the whole Quran by heart, was compiled exactly in the present form and order, which is regarded as traditional, and as the arrangement of the Prophet Himself, --- the Caliph Uthman and his helpers being Comrades of the Prophet, and the most devout students of the revelation.
The Quran has been very carefully preserved. --- End of quote.

So this version of the Quran was completed some 20 years after Muhammad’s death, during the Caliphate of Uthman, and all the other copies were destroyed.

--- It is interesting to me that at no time did they confer with Ali who had the original Quran, --- and the proof is there, --- that when Abu Bakr and Umar said, “We have our own,” it was not quite true because they hadn’t memorized it as others had, or they would simply have written down the missing Surahs themselves, --- and not had to call on others who had memorized it.
I was surprised, too, that the ones who were dedicated enough to memorize the whole Quran were killed in the battles. --- Could they not have been ‘conscientious objectors’?

--- However, when Ali became the Caliph after Uthman was killed, he did not suggest any changes to the Quran, so it must have been quite close to the original.

--- Mr Pickthall mentions that in some Surahs, certain verses were written in Mecca and some in Madinah. --- Nevertheless, God has preserved it as it is, even as He preserved the former Scriptures.

So they began the division and fell into conflict soon after Muhammad’s death.
This is the way the devil, Iblis, works in trying to divide the people and destroy the peace, and victory, that had finally come to Mecca and the Muslims (surrendered ones).
It seemed that Ali was not involved in the fighting but continued to render service at the Mosques

It seemed that in the first years that Abu Bakr was Caliph that his main emphasis on control was within Saudi Arabia, --- but in the Caliphate of Umar he carried the aggression beyond their borders, which was certainly not within God’s will, was it?
--- He seemingly swept across North Africa, and up to Israel, like a conqueror.

--- (Pllease correct me where I am wrong in this history of Islasm.)

Makes us wonder how different it might have been had Ali become the first Caliph and the ‘companions of Muhammad’ would have supported him, rather than being led astray. --- Ali may have followed God’s guidance and kept the peace, --- and employed each of the ‘companions’ in negotiations with the rivals and the tax evaders.


Placid

[placid]

To continue with the history.

If Abu Bakr and Umar did not follow God’s leading, then the spiritual direction was lost to the leadership of the people at that early time. --- If the aggression of Umar had a purpose, it was maybe to work  his way up to Israel, because the Jews in Madinah had previously fallen into disfavor with Muhammad, --- and Umar may have had a desire to conquer them, --- which he apparently did.

--- And remember this verse in Surah 9:
28. O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

---“ If you fear poverty from the loss of their merchandise, --- God will provide ---  IF HE WILL.”  --- God provided for Muhammad and led them back to their hometown of Mecca. --- Had they believed God and ‘allowed’ Him to provide for them, He would have, --- but since they took the law into their own hands, God could not bless them in their disobedience and folly.

When a person or country movesABOUT THE YEAR out of the realm of God’s blessing, --- then they are on their own.
--- Had they waited till the idolaters who weren’t submissive to God had left,
--- And had they said, “Lord, what would you have us do?”
--- The Lord might have said, “DIG A DEEP WELL AND BE READY TO CAP IT WHEN YOU HIT THE OIL UNDER THE GROUND.”
--- He might have provided wealth for them as they could sell heating oil that didn’t need refining. --- It was a case of man not trusting God, and therefore, not receiving the blessings of God.

--- This seemed to be an opportunity for the Muslims to wait on God to work His plan for a peaceful solution, --- ABOUT the year AFTER Muhammad died.

Muhammad said that he left two things for the people. First, the Quran, which they were to follow, and secondly, his household, in whom he put faith for the future. --- His daughter Fatima, --- Ali, her husband, --- and their two Children, Hassan and Hussain who I believe were only 8 and 6 at the time.

It seems that Fatima died shortly after Muhammad from some unfortunate accident, so Ali would be left with the two boys, who were faithful to God, as was their father, Ali, who was the spiritual leader through those years.

The first Caliph was Abu Bakr, from 632-34, who after two years (27 months) died of an illness.
The Caliph Umar reigned after him for some 10 years and was stabbed and died a short time later.
- After him came Uthman who was elected as the choice of the people. He had been a successful business man and was very generous, but his adversaries pressured him, and eventually killed him.

The rebels were gaining power over the leadership and asked Ali to be the new Caliph. --- He refused, saying they should leave him as a counselor, but after much persuasion by the rebels and his own people, he reluctantly agreed.
--- Ali was the Imam, so here was another chance to be the leader and perhaps be the rightful successor to Muhammad, and bring the people back to obedience to God.
--- He became Caliph in 56, some 24 years after Muhammad’s death, and by this time the kingdom had expanded so it was almost unmanageable. (And during his time there was civil war. It was a very hard time.)

Quote: At the beginning Ali told people that Muslim polity had come to be plagued by dissension and discord and he wanted to purge Islam of all evil from which it had come to suffer. Then warned all concerned that he would tolerate no sedition and all found guilty of subversive activities would be dealt with harshly. He advised people to behave as true Muslims.
But he soon found that he was helpless and the prisoner of the people who didn't obey him. The caliphate had come to him as the gift of the rebels and he didn't have enough force to control or punish them. --- End of quote.

--- (While the best hope to bring the Political leadership back to some order and stability should have been under Ali, --- it didn’t happen.)

Quote: On the nineteenth of Ramadan, while Ali was praying in the mosque of Kufa, the Kharijite Abd-al-Rahman ibn Muljam assassinated him with a strike of his poison-coated sword. Ali, wounded by the poisonous sword, lived for two days and died on the 21st of Ramadan in the city of Kufa in 661 CE. --- End of quote.

(Please correct me where I am wrong in my understanding.)


Placid

[placid]

(To continue)

As a Non-Muslim I have questions about the continuing spiritual guidance of Islam.
The first three caliphs were Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman

During Uthman’s Caliphate he compiled the Quran as it is today, and destroyed extra copies of Surahs, so that the teaching of Islam would be from one source

I have read here on Shiachat that Muhammad said to his companions, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.
--- So here is another good basis for the one belief in Islam. --- Go with the Quran only.  
--- This was the first thing that Muhammad said he was leaving.

And the second was, his family --- His daughter Fatima, her husband Ali who Muhammad appointed as his successor, and their two children Hassan and Hussain --- (Unfortunately Fatima died shortly after Muhammad)

So, as I said previously, Ali who was the first Imam was invited to be the next Caliph after Uthman. He refused at first, but after much persuasion, he reluctantly accepted, and said, he would make some changes, --- but unfortunately as Caliph he suffered opposition and realized his efforts were ineffective

Unfortunately he was struck with a poison sword while praying in a Mosque and died a few days later. --- His legacy would live on in his writings, but the country seemed to be left in chaos.

His son, Imam Hassan became the Caliph following his father, Ali, --- but was ineffective and had to compromise, making a truce with Moavia, ‘who would have no dominion over spiritual leadership. He would not appoint a successor and the choice was to be left to the people.’
--- (It would seem that from this time the Imams would be in charge of the spiritual leadership and the Caliphs would govern with the secular ruling body.
It would be the separation of ‘Church and State’ for Islam.

It is recorded that some years later Imam Hassan was poisoned by his wife on the orders of the new Caliph, Mauwiya.

The Second son of Ali was the third Imam, and his story is told in “The tragedy of Kerbala,” at the top of page 1.
Imam Hussain’s family was all killed except one son who was sick with a fever and was allowed to live, or die, --- and the remaining women were taken prisoner, --- so, unfortunately, the immediate family of Muhammad was no more.


Some commentators have written that the ‘Prophethood’ was passed from one to another of the Imams. --- However, I have found nothing in the Quran to support this,
--- Or are there verses that I have missed that indicate this?


Others have said that the Holy Spirit continues with the spiritual leader, --- but the Holy Spirit is not given to anyone who is not spiritually worthy, and since the Holy Spirit was not known after Muhammad and perhaps Ali, --- there was no spiritual guidance from God, was there?

Imam Hussain was killed about 680 AD, --- about 38 years after Muhammad, his grandfather, died.  --- And while the one part of his legacy remained, ‘the Quran,’ --- it seemed that the second part of his legacy, his family, was gone.

So where did their spiritual guidance come from?  


Placid