231 replies to this topic

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Maula Dha Mallang, on 22 July 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:

was there a limit to what we *cant* say to them by way of insult?

Curse you, curse the Takfiris, curse the Kharijis, curse the Shayatin, curse qawm ithalimeen, curse the zionists, curse Stalin, Lenin and Justin Biebler.

errrrrrr

[Maula Dha Mallang]

Ya Aba 3abdillah, on 22 July 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:

Curse you, curse the Takfiris, curse the Kharijis, curse the Shayatin, curse qawm ithalimeen, curse the zionists, curse Stalin, Lenin and Justin Biebler.

errrrrrr

i was referring to people who deserve curses, such as the first 3, ammi jaan, muawiyyah (LA), sunnis, justin bieber and so on.

[HellHound]

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Okay on a serious note: My post isn't really related to the topic, but I'd like to add my two cents. I think we have two camps of extreme arguing against each other here. The first one comprises those who advocate open and blunt tabarra, and sending la'anat on the 3 caliphs and two wives without holding back whatsoever, mostly people who follow Ayat. Shirazi and Yasir Habib. The second one is composed mainly of those who are/were followers of Ayat. Fadhlallah, and Ayat. Khamenei, who both have discouraged such a thing, but I'm not too sure about what they've said about cursing and sending la'anat on those 5 within one's own private spaces and Shia-only circles. Am I correct so far? Do both camps agree on sending la'anat within the vicinity of your homes and within Shia-only circles at least?

If yes, then I think the issue ultimately boils down to simply being about doing OPEN tabarra. If I'm misunderstanding anything, someone correct me please. Thank you.

[Al-Afasy]

Legio Invicta, on 22 July 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Okay on a serious note: My post isn't really related to the topic, but I'd like to add my two cents. I think we have two camps of extreme arguing against each other here. The first one comprises those who advocate open and blunt tabarra, and sending la'anat on the 3 caliphs and two wives without holding back whatsoever, mostly people who follow Ayat. Shirazi and Yasir Habib. The second one is composed mainly of those who are/were followers of Ayat. Fadhlallah, and Ayat. Khamenei, who both have discouraged such a thing, but I'm not too sure about what they've said about cursing and sending la'anat on those 5 within one's own private spaces and Shia-only circles. Am I correct so far? Do both camps agree on sending la'anat within the vicinity of your homes and within Shia-only circles at least?

If yes, then I think the issue ultimately boils down to simply being about doing OPEN tabarra. If I'm misunderstanding anything, someone correct me please. Thank you.

No, that is not the issue. As I said before, people are against the issue of the imams and Allah cursing people.

As always they hide until one of the Batriyyah comes to save them.

Edited by haidar al karrar, 22 July 2011 - 01:30 PM.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Masha'Allah, please keep the ahadith coming, they're great.

InshAllah i'll post a few too. Particularly those that demonstrate the nour and good nature of our beloved Imams , as their names deserve to be portrayed in a way to represent their blessed and purified nature.

http://www.coiradio....ers/094-097.htm

Quote

ÞÇáó ÇáÅãÇãõ ÇáÍóÓóäõ Èäõ Úóáíøò (Ú) :ÕÇÍöÈö ÇáäøÇÓó ãöËáó ãÇ ÊõÍöÈøõ Ãóäú íõÕÇÍöÈõæßó Èöåö

Imam Hassan, the second Imam [a.s.], said: "Treat others similar to the way you would like for them to treat you."

http://www.al-shia.o...q_tabib/15.html
http://www.al-shia.o...behar74/117.htm

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ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå:

  

« ãä ÚÇãá ÇáäÇÓ Ýáã íÙáãåã ¡ æÍÏøËåã Ýáã íßÐÈåã ¡ ææÚÏåã Ýáã íÎáÝåã ¡ Ýåæ ããøä ßãáÊ ãÑæøÊå ¡ æÙåÑÊ ÚÏÇáÊå ¡ ææÌÈÊ ÇõÎæøÊå ¡ æÍÑãÊ ÛíÈÊå ».

  

« ãä ÕÇÍÈ ÇáäÇÓ ÈÇáÐí íõÍÈø Ãä íÕÇÍÈæå ßÇä ÚÏáÇ ».

  

« ÃÚÏá ÇáäÇÓ ãä ÑÖí ááäÇÓ ãÇ íÑÖì áäÝÓå ¡ æßÑå áåã ãÇ íßÑå áäÝÓå ».

[Al-Afasy]

Ya Aba 3abdillah, on 22 July 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

Masha'Allah, please keep the ahadith coming, they're great.

InshAllah i'll post a few too. Particularly those that demonstrate the nour and good nature of our beloved Imams , as their names deserve to be portrayed in a way to represent their blessed and purified nature.

http://www.coiradio....ers/094-097.htm

http://www.al-shia.o...q_tabib/15.html
http://www.al-shia.o...behar74/117.htm

Brother did you forget the part about having chains and statements of authenticity? This way we can avoid arguments about the isaneed.

[macisaac]

Ya Aba 3abdillah, on 22 July 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

Particularly those that demonstrate the nour and good nature of our beloved Imams , as their names deserve to be portrayed in a way to represent their blessed and purified nature.

Who is arguing against that?

[Yasoob Al Deen]

Islamic Salvation, on 22 July 2011 - 12:47 PM, said:

You are right that the Hadith will stand for those accepting any narration from Ashab al-Ijma as a Wasitah,
but that is a weak opinion in my mind,
of course there are those who support it,
What happens when Ashab al-ijma narrate from a man of whom there is explicit and unanimous Tadhif as has happened?
How can we be sure this unknown man is not of the same class?

It doesn't matter if the ashaab al-ijmaa' reported from dhu`afaa. It is not being said that all narrators the ashaab narrate from are thiqa. Rather it is being said that the ashaab reported only what they thought was saheeh (authentic) even if the intermediary narrators were weak, because they had certitude in the authenticity of the report. A weak narrator can narrate the truth, and it can sometimes be perceived when the weak narrator is narrating true or false reports. Who knows best of whether a hadeeth is true or not other than those contemporaries of the Aimmah, who were the best of sahaba of the Aimmah, and who were the most knowledgable?

al-Kashshi says:

    ثمّ ذكر عنواناً آخر باسم « تسمية الفقهاء من أصحاب أبي عبد اللّه ( عليه السَّلام ) » وقال بعده :
    2. أجمعت العصابة على تصحيح ما يصحّ عن هؤلاء وتصديقهم لما يقولون ، وأقرّوا لهم بالفقه من دون أُولئك الستة الذين عددناهم وسمّيناهم ، وهم ستة نفر : جميل بن دراج ، و عبد اللّه بن مسكان ، و عبد اللّه بن بكير ، وحمّاد بن عثمان ، وحماد بن عيسى ، وأبان بن عثمان. قالوا : وزعم أبو إسحاق الفقيه يعني ثعلبة بـن ميمـون ⁽¹⁾ أنّ أفقه هـؤلاء جميـل بن دراج وهـم أحـداث ⁽²⁾ أصحـاب أبي عبد اللّه ( عليه السَّلام ). ⁽³⁾
Translation of bold (courtesy of Macisaac): "The sect has ijma` on the considering to be sahih whatever is soundly narrated from these ones, and the confirmation of whatever they say."

(From http://www.rafed.net...oujazah/04.html)

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At the end of the day, no one is debating the Imams use of the word - 'La'nah',
...but at the end of the day,
they did this with their companions as a means of instruction and showing extreme dislike for an act,
.....Rather one of them said - be unto the people well disciplined until they say these are the followers of Ja'far, and be not with them so as they say - what worse teachings they have got from their leader Ja'far.

Good words, my brother. Indeed, the Imams cursed. But in front of people's faces? Rarely. The akhlaaq of the Imams must not be forgotten. Neither must the safety of the Imamiyyah be forgotten. What is the source of this nice hadeeth you have quoted btw?

I just wonder if any Imamis died in Pakistan or elsewhere when al-Habeeb celebrated the death anniversary of Aisha and Umar...

Edited by Yasoob Al Deen, 22 July 2011 - 02:18 PM.

[HellHound]

Where is admin Inshallah when you need him???????

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

http://iraq.iraq.ir/..._alouqool/2.htm
http://www.alhassana...e_mind/009.html

Extract of the above from Imam Ali to Malik Ashtar

Habituate your heart to mercy for the subjects and to affection and  kindness for them. Do not stand over them like greedy beasts who feel it  is enough to devour them, since they are of two kinds, either your  brother in religion or one like you in creation.

http://iraq.iraq.ir/..._alouqool/7.htm
http://www.alhassana...e_mind/015.html

Extract of the above from Imam Sadiq to Ibn Jundab

O son of Jundab, regard him who ruptured relations with you, give him who deprived you (of his bestowals), treat kindly him who mistreated you, greet him who reviled at you, be just to him who disputed with you, and pardon him who wronged you in the same way you like others to pardon you. Take lessons from God's pardoning you; do you not see that His sun is covering the pious and the licentious and His rain is falling on the virtuous and the wrongdoers?

[Gypsy]

Legio Invicta, on 22 July 2011 - 02:07 PM, said:

Where is admin Inshallah when you need him???????

What do you need him to do?

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

macisaac, on 22 July 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

Who is arguing against that?

I've already said it.

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2227669
http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2227693
http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2227701

It's a basic concept that even a child understands. God curses Jews. God curses Christians. God curses Hindus. God curses non-Muslims. WE GET IT.

YET.....How did Rasoul and Ahlul Bayt treat and speak to their enemies? All you people are painting is a dirty sectarian mentality. My Imams were never like that, which is why you can't even regurgitate ONE HADITH where the Imams curse Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman or Aisha by name. NOT ONE.

The fact that they didn't, speaks volumes.

So you keep dancing around with your Takfirism, it's how you sectarian people will forever be remembered by.

[macisaac]

Ya Aba 3abdillah, on 22 July 2011 - 02:33 PM, said:

YET.....How did Rasoul and Ahlul Bayt treat and speak to their enemies? All you people are painting is a dirty sectarian mentality. My Imams were never like that, which is why you can't even regurgitate ONE HADITH where the Imams curse Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman or Aisha by name. NOT ONE.

Err


[ 8449 ] 1 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓíä ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá Èä ÈÒíÚ ¡ Úä ÇáÎíÈÑí ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ËæíÑ æÃÈí ÓáãÉ ÇáÓÑøÇÌ ÞÇáÇ : ÓãÚäÇ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) æåæ íáÚä Ýí ÏÈÑ ßáø ãßÊæÈÉ ÃÑÈÚÉ ãä ÇáÑÌÇá æÃÑÈÚÇð ãä ÇáäÓÇÁ ¡ ÝáÇä æÝáÇä æÝáÇä æíÓãøíåã æãÚÇæíÉ ¡ æÝáÇäÉ æÝáÇäÉ æåäÏÇð æÃõãø ÇáÍßã ÇÎÊ ãÚÇæíÉ.

ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ ãËáå ¡ ÅáÇø Ãäøå ÊÑß Þæáå : Úä ÇáÎíÈÑí.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from  Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from Muhammad b. Isma`il b. Bazi` from al-Khaybari from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr and Abu Salma as-Sarraj. They said: We heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and he was cursing after (lit. in the back) of every ordained (lit. written) (salat) four from the men and four from the women: fulan and fulan and fulan, and he would name them, and Mu`awiya, and fulana and fulana and Hind and Umm al-Hakam the sister of Mu`awiya.

Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. Yahya likewise except that he left off his saying: from al-Khaybari.


Now before someone jumps in with isnad! isnad!, I'd remind them that in mustahabbat, isnad is not considered relevant.  And don't play coy with claiming to not know who the fulans and fulanas are...

[saraab]

I seriously fail to understand the types of mentality some people have towards this topic.

Have you ever thought about the benefits of cursing others? What good does it bring to Islam? Have you tired weighting the costs the benefits of cursing? If so, what clicked in ur mind? please share!

If you’re really using this as an approach to condemn evil (most typical answer u guys put fwd when questioned) then you’re not doing it the correct way because that’s not what our imams have taught us to do.

During the battle of Saffin there was an incident in which the imam made clear his dislike for such acts. He told his companions that he doesn’t want them to curse and send la3an on their enemies and rather should be addressing their enemies’ bad deeds (talk about these and explain how theyre bad) -and one more beautiful thing he added was- pray for your enemies to be guided.  (some ppl will neva be able to relate to this- eh but khair inshallah)

And this is truly the essence of Islam which is reflected in the lives of the prophet and the imams on countless occasions e.g. The prophet goes and visits a sick Jewish man whom on a daily basis used to annoy the Prophet with name calling and throwing rocks at him or the incident of imam Hussian during Ashura were he begins crying and when asked why-he says that he feels sorry for those who will Allah not be happy with because of him.  If cursing is something productive why didn’t they practice it here?! Surely their status  does not allow them to go down to such a level. The quraan refers to the prophet as of “Great manners”  { æóÅöäøóßó áóÚóáì ÎõáõÞò ÚóÙöíãò } ( ÇáÞáã : 4 ) and that if he was to be rude and harsh then people would disband from him and his message æóáóæú ßõäÊó ÝóÙøðÇ ÛóáöíÙó ÇáúÞóáúÈö áóÇäÝóÖøõæÇ ãöäú Íóæúáößó  (Âá ÚãÑÇä: 159). When the quraan speaks of the prophet in such a manner then there is no room left for the prophet to be a person who practised and supported la3an. So The ahadeeth you guys have put fwd are in conflict with how the quraan describes the characteristics of the prophet and the imams.

[macisaac]

Anyway, as already said above, the point of this thread (to me at least) is not about doing la`n on Jibt (la) and Taghut (la), it's more about what our attitude to the misguided and deviated sects should be.  Brother-in-faith or heretics?  I can keep quoting multiple hadiths about this if you like. How about you try to find me one where the Imams ever said that someone who rejects their Imamate and who believes in the leadership of Jibt and Taghut is our brother, that they are of the believers, that we should be united with them as brothers, and so on?

[Yasoob Al Deen]

Ya Aba 3abdillah, on 22 July 2011 - 02:33 PM, said:

It's a basic concept that even a child understands. God curses Jews. God curses Christians. God curses Hindus. God curses non-Muslims. WE GET IT.

YET.....How did Rasoul and Ahlul Bayt treat and speak to their enemies? All you people are painting is a dirty sectarian mentality. My Imams were never like that, which is why you can't even regurgitate ONE HADITH where the Imams curse Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman or Aisha by name. NOT ONE.

The fact that they didn't, speaks volumes.

So you keep dancing around with your Takfirism, it's how you sectarian people will forever be remembered by.

Sounds rather like that means the Prophet and his usurped successors have better akhlaaq than Allah, jalal jalaalahu, since you're saying God curses but these men know better not to...
Yes, it is difficult to find narrations where there is cursing. Yes, this is sometimes or partly due to their great akhlaaq. But they did curse those who did wrong on the odd occasion. Why? Because the wrong-doers were in the wrong.

There are a few narrations on this anti-Shia page where the Imams did la`an: http://shiacult.word...kr-and-umar-ra/

[Maula Dha Mallang]

macisaac, on 22 July 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

Anyway, as already said above, the point of this thread (to me at least) is not about doing la`n on Jibt (la) and Taghut (la), it's more about what our attitude to the misguided and deviated sects should be.  Brother-in-faith or heretics?  I can keep quoting multiple hadiths about this if you like. How about you try to find me one where the Imams ever said that someone who rejects their Imamate and who believes in the leadership of Jibt and Taghut is our brother, that they are of the believers, that we should be united with them as brothers, and so on?

this is exactly the point of the thread. shias are so desperate to please and join hands with sunnis, while having nothing but scorn and hatred for other shias. please do post whatever you think is relevant

[macisaac]

saraab, on 22 July 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

During the battle of Saffin there was an incident in which the imam made clear his dislike for such acts. He told his companions that he doesn’t want them to curse and send la3an on their enemies and rather should be addressing their enemies’ bad deeds (talk about these and explain how theyre bad) -and one more beautiful thing he added was- pray for your enemies to be guided.  (some ppl will neva be able to relate to this- eh but khair inshallah)

[ 7979 ] 2 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÏÑíÓ Ýí ÂÎÑ ( ÇáÓÑÇÆÑ ) äÞáÇð ãä ßÊÇÈ ãÍãøÏ Èä Úáí Èä ãÍÈæÈ ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓíä ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí Èä ÝÖøÇá ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÅÓÍÇÞ ËÚáÈÉ ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä åáÇá ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Ü Ýí ÍÏíË Ü ÞÇá : Åäø ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáøì Çááå Úáíå æÇáå ) ÞÏ ÞäÊ æÏÚÇ Úáì Þæã ÈÃÓãÇÆåã æÃÓãÇÁ ÂÈÇÆåã æÚÔÇÆÑåã æÝÚáå Úáí ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÈÚÏå.

2 – Muhammad b. Idris in the end of as-Sara’ir transmitting from the book of Muhammad b. `Ali b. Mahbub from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from al-Hasan b. `Ali b. Faddal from Abu Ishaq Tha`laba from `Abdullah b. Hilal from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in a hadith wherein he said: Verily the Messenger of Allah Õáøì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå had done qunut and supplicated against a group with their names and the names of their fathers and their tribes, and `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã did it after him.

[La fata illa Ali]

macisaac, on 22 July 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:

Err


[ 8449 ] 1 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓíä ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá Èä ÈÒíÚ ¡ Úä ÇáÎíÈÑí ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ËæíÑ æÃÈí ÓáãÉ ÇáÓÑøÇÌ ÞÇáÇ : ÓãÚäÇ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) æåæ íáÚä Ýí ÏÈÑ ßáø ãßÊæÈÉ ÃÑÈÚÉ ãä ÇáÑÌÇá æÃÑÈÚÇð ãä ÇáäÓÇÁ ¡ ÝáÇä æÝáÇä æÝáÇä æíÓãøíåã æãÚÇæíÉ ¡ æÝáÇäÉ æÝáÇäÉ æåäÏÇð æÃõãø ÇáÍßã ÇÎÊ ãÚÇæíÉ.

ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ ãËáå ¡ ÅáÇø Ãäøå ÊÑß Þæáå : Úä ÇáÎíÈÑí.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from  Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from Muhammad b. Isma`il b. Bazi` from al-Khaybari from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr and Abu Salma as-Sarraj. They said: We heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and he was cursing after (lit. in the back) of every ordained (lit. written) (salat) four from the men and four from the women: fulan and fulan and fulan, and he would name them, and Mu`awiya, and fulana and fulana and Hind and Umm al-Hakam the sister of Mu`awiya.

Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. Yahya likewise except that he left off his saying: from al-Khaybari.


Now before someone jumps in with isnad! isnad!, I'd remind them that in mustahabbat, isnad is not considered relevant.  And don't play coy with claiming to not know who the fulans and fulanas are...

Wow Mac, I am really dissapointed with ur lack of critical thinking in this post. It is a simple challenge from Ya aba Abdillah. Bring  a Hadith with NAMES!  Last I checked Fulan isnt a name...

Cmon man, I expect better from u. Don't bring ur standards down and Imam Ali said if you dont know, say u dont know. Dont try and bring something that isnt there.

Ya aba has a point, can u reply? Or will u continue to bring fulan, fulan, fulan -> infinity

[Philip]

Maula Dha Mallang, on 22 July 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

salam, ya ali madad and lanat upon the enemies of the ahlebeyt .

im sick and tired of well meaning but ignorant people trying to prove that its wrong to curse. a common hadith is some random one of the imam telling his followers not to curse muawiyyah (LA) at siffeen LOL. cos that does seem reliable.

lets keep this civil. and set the rules.

our aim for this thread is to prove whether or not:

(1) the imams cursed anyone or any group
(2) the imams were sweetness and light and hugs and rainbows towards their enemies and our enemies
(3) the imams prevented their shia from cursing
(4) its allowed to see sunnis and other sects as our equals or our brothers
(5) how to treat our enemies

the only accepted proofs will be:

(1) one of our 4 main books only. sunni hadiths or randomass books by some insignificant batri dont count
(2) strong hadith, with chains

there will be no:

(1) personal attacks
(2) off topic rants
(3) attacks on people like yassir al habib (HA), mujtaba shirazi (HA), ayatollah fadhlallah or ayatollah khamenei etc.

lets finish this damned topic once and for all, because the amount of sunni ass kissing on this forum by a group of members is making me sick.

do you agree, oh you defenders of our enemies?

The sunah I usually use to finish this discussion is the sunnah of our beloved heroic legendary exemplary prophet may Allah's peace be upon him perpetually and exponentially

So basically when he went on the Hijra a man followed and caught up with him in order to kill him. So according to bukhary the prophet pbuh cursed this man so hard that he fell off his horse (I think) and begged the prophet pbuh to release the curse.

Also when some tribe killed some of the prophets important companions .. The prophet made sala on them to cause misery and drought on their village .. And disharmony. I read this in bukhary as well.

Then there is of course Sarah the wife of Sayidna Ibrahim a.s. Who cursed the pharaoh who tried to approach her in hid palace .. While her husband was arrested. Same story .. The guy begged on the spot to be released .. And his wish was granted. Also it looks like it was in pharaos benefit to go through this experience. Because he not only let Sarah and Sayidna Ibrahim free .. No .. He gave Sarah a gift too .. Sayida Hajar a.s. .. And am sure you know the rest of the story.

So the pharaoh looks like he converted!! God knows ..

Anyway .. The ultimate sunnah that we Muslims follow is sunnat iLah .. The way of Allah .. And anybody opening the Quran will find God cursing jinn and people.

..subhan Allah

May Allah destroy the wrong-doers

[Yasoob Al Deen]

saraab, on 22 July 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

I seriously fail to understand the types of mentality some people have towards this topic.

Have you ever thought about the benefits of cursing others? What good does it bring to Islam? Have you tired weighting the costs the benefits of cursing? If so, what clicked in ur mind? please share!

We, or at least I, are not saying go around every second cursing every enemy of Allah, azza wa jal. We are saying that cursing, including specific cursing, IS legitimate as the Aimmah, aleyhum assalam, have done it. Cursing is a form of tabarra, and you know tabarra is an important amongst the furu' ad-deen. Of course, one should try to guide the people.
I have no idea about the authenticity of the examples you mentioned, and please mention references if you have them, but let's think of how the Imam dealt with Abu Hanifa in general. He and his companions debated with Abu Hanifa and tried to reason with him. Abu Hanifa continued with qiyas, so the Imam cursed him in a hadeeth with a saheeh chain in order to condemn the practice and warn others.

Quote

The quraan refers to the prophet as of "Great manners"  { æóÅöäóøßó áóÚóáì ÎõáõÞò ÚóÙöíãò } ( ÇáÞáã : 4 ) and that if he was to be rude and harsh then people would disband from him and his message æóáóæú ßõäÊó ÝóÙðøÇ ÛóáöíÙó ÇáúÞóáúÈö áóÇäÝóÖõøæÇ ãöäú Íóæúáößó  (Âá ÚãÑÇä: 159). When the quraan speaks of the prophet in such a manner then there is no room left for the prophet to be a person who practised and supported la3an. So The ahadeeth you guys have put fwd are in conflict with how the quraan describes the characteristics of the prophet and the imams.

Great manners with the people outwardly. Inwardly, he may easily have been cursing the kuffaar or munafiqoon.

An inability to send any la`an on the enemies of Allah and His messenger can be a sign of weak emaan. You must be the enemies of the enemies of the Aimmah or you risk not being of their Shia.

[Replicant]

macisaac, on 22 July 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:

Err


[ 8449 ] 1 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓíä ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá Èä ÈÒíÚ ¡ Úä ÇáÎíÈÑí ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ËæíÑ æÃÈí ÓáãÉ ÇáÓÑøÇÌ ÞÇáÇ : ÓãÚäÇ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) æåæ íáÚä Ýí ÏÈÑ ßáø ãßÊæÈÉ ÃÑÈÚÉ ãä ÇáÑÌÇá æÃÑÈÚÇð ãä ÇáäÓÇÁ ¡ ÝáÇä æÝáÇä æÝáÇä æíÓãøíåã æãÚÇæíÉ ¡ æÝáÇäÉ æÝáÇäÉ æåäÏÇð æÃõãø ÇáÍßã ÇÎÊ ãÚÇæíÉ.

ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ ãËáå ¡ ÅáÇø Ãäøå ÊÑß Þæáå : Úä ÇáÎíÈÑí.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from  Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from Muhammad b. Isma`il b. Bazi` from al-Khaybari from al-Husayn b. Thuwayr and Abu Salma as-Sarraj. They said: We heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and he was cursing after (lit. in the back) of every ordained (lit. written) (salat) four from the men and four from the women: fulan and fulan and fulan, and he would name them, and Mu`awiya, and fulana and fulana and Hind and Umm al-Hakam the sister of Mu`awiya.

Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. Yahya likewise except that he left off his saying: from al-Khaybari.


Now before someone jumps in with isnad! isnad!, I'd remind them that in mustahabbat, isnad is not considered relevant.  And don't play coy with claiming to not know who the fulans and fulanas are...

This is the point. From this, we can see that saying their names (at least in a public sphere in front of their lovers) is not a wise way to go.
We should take example and send lanah by using the term "fulaan" or "jibt" or whatever.
In the private sphere, then yes, name them at your pleasure where no one will be offended.

Quote

Anyway, as already said above, the point of this thread (to me at least) is not about doing la`n on Jibt (la) and Taghut (la), it's more about what our attitude to the misguided and deviated sects should be.  Brother-in-faith or heretics?  I can keep quoting multiple hadiths about this if you like. How about you try to find me one where the Imams ever said that someone who rejects their Imamate and who believes in the leadership of Jibt and Taghut is our brother, that they are of the believers, that we should be united with them as brothers, and so on?

What about Imam Ali in Nahjul Balagha when he famously said "Man is either your brother in faith or equal in humanity"?
Sunnis might not be our brothers in faith (from the hadiths that have been presented), I accept. But they are our equals in humanity.
It's a human issue - you don't diss someone's mum in front of their face. Abu Bakr, Umar etc are more dearer to these people than their mothers. So don't do it to their face.
Bring up their faults and all that, but try your best not to hurt them in the process. Invite them in the way of your Lord with peace and wisdom.

My take on the whole issue is simple. Just look at the way you word things and look at the big picture. When you're a huge figure and you do something, your followers may be affected by the words you utter. You might say something that might cause the killings of innocent people and you don't want blood on your hands.

Hate the enemies of the Ahlulbayt and hate the lovers of the enemies, of course. But do it responsibly and do your best to show the deviated people the correct path.
I don't want unity, just tolerance and mutual respect as human beings so that we may coexist.

Edited by Replicant, 22 July 2011 - 03:04 PM.

[Yasoob Al Deen]

La fata illa Ali, on 22 July 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

Wow Mac, I am really dissapointed with ur lack of critical thinking in this post. It is a simple challenge from Ya aba Abdillah. Bring  a Hadith with NAMES!  Last I checked Fulan isnt a name...

Fulan means "so-and-so" and either means the name of someone has been forgotten or hidden. In this case, the names have obviously been removed. The challenge, let us be clear, is to show that the Aimmah gave specific curses on people such as the three caliphs. This is present in the ahadeeth. The same link I quoted previously has some examples like I said: http://shiacult.word...kr-and-umar-ra/ (CTRL+F for "curse" to locate ahadeeth with la`an in them and see if the three caliphs or others are indirectly mentioned).

Replicant, on 22 July 2011 - 03:01 PM, said:

This is the point. From this, we can see that saying their names (at least in a public sphere in front of their lovers) is not a wise way to go.
We should take example and send lanah by using the term "fulaan" or "jibt" or whatever.

Look more closely:

We heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام and he was cursing after (lit. in the back) of every ordained (lit. written) (salat) four from the men and four from the women: fulan and fulan and fulan, and he would name them, and Mu`awiya, and fulana and fulana and Hind and Umm al-Hakam the sister of Mu`awiya.
Notice how it says the Imam would name them. Notice how some names are there and some are not ("fulan"/"fulana").
Names have been removed.

Edited by Yasoob Al Deen, 22 July 2011 - 03:08 PM.

[macisaac]

La fata illa Ali, on 22 July 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

Wow Mac, I am really dissapointed with ur lack of critical thinking in this post. It is a simple challenge from Ya aba Abdillah. Bring  a Hadith with NAMES!  Last I checked Fulan isnt a name...

Cmon man, I expect better from u. Don't bring ur standards down and Imam Ali said if you dont know, say u dont know. Dont try and bring something that isnt there.

Ya aba has a point, can u reply? Or will u continue to bring fulan, fulan, fulan -> infinity

To talk about the hadiths, you need to be familiar with their language.  You will hardly ever find hadiths where those ones are named though it's clear they are being talked about.  What do you think this huge emphasis on taqiyya is if they weren't going to be doing taqiyya on something so basic?  Let me give some more examples of such taqiyya code language:



[ 26396 ] 9 Ü ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍßã ¡ Úä ÈÔÑ Èä ÍãÒÉ ¡ Úä ÑÌá ãä ÞÑíÔ ÞÇá : ÈÚËÊ Åáì ÇÈäÉ Úã áí ßÇä áåÇ ãÇá ßËíÑ : ÞÏ ÚÑÝÊ ßËÑÉ ãä íÎØÈäí ãä ÇáÑÌÇá Ýáã ÃÒæÌåã äÝÓí ¡ æãÇ ÈÚËÊ Çáíß ÑÛÈÉ Ýí ÇáÑÌÇá ÛíÑ Ãäå ÈáÛäí Ãäå ÃÍáåÇ Çááå Ýí ßÊÇÈå æÓäåÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå ) Ýí ÓäÊå ÝÍÑãåÇ ÒÝÑ ¡ ÝÃÍÈÈÊ Ãä ÃØíÚ Çááå ÚÒ æÌá ÝæÞ ÚÑÔå æÃØíÚ ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå ) æÃÚÕí ÒÝÑ ÝÊÒæÌäí ãÊÚÉ ¡ ÝÞáÊ áåÇ : ÍÊì ÃÏÎá Úáì ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÝÃÓÊÔíÑå ¡ ÞÇá : ÝÏÎáÊ Úáíå ÝÎÈÑÊå ¡ ÝÞÇá : ÇÝÚá Õáì Çááå ÚáíßãÇ ãä ÒæÌ .



9 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from Bishr [Bashir – in al-Kafi] b. Hamza from a man of Quraysh.  He said: The daughter of an aunt of mine who has a lot of property sent to me:  I had known that many men had sought my hand and I have not married myself to them and I have not sent to you desiring men except that it has reached me that Allah has made mut`a halal in His book and the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå Óáã legislated [stated – in al-Kafi] it in his Sunna, then Zufar made it haram, so I love that I should obey Allah ÚÒ æÌá  above His Throne and obey the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå and disobey Zufar.  So marry me (in) mut`a.  So I said to her: (Wait) until I enter upon Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and take his counsel.  So I entered and sought his counsel.  So he said: Do it, Allah bless you (two) from a spouse (?).


"Zufar"?  Who's that?  Well, who was it that tried to make mut`a haram?

Or for instance:

[ 12559 ] 14 Ü ãÍãÏ Èä ÅÏÑíÓ Ýí ÂÎÑ ( ÇáÓÑÇÆÑ ) äÞáÇ ãä ßÊÇÈ ãÓÇÆá ÇáÑÌÇá ) : Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä ÒíÇÏ æãæÓì Èä ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÚíÓì ÞÇá (1) : ßÊÈÊ Åáíå Ü íÚäí : Úáí Èä ãÍãÏ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Ü ÃÓÃáå Úä ÇáäÇÕÈ ¡ åá ÃÍÊÇÌ Ýí ÇãÊÍÇäå Åáì ÃßËÑ ãä ÊÞÏíãå ÇáÌÈÊ æÇáØÇÛæÊ æÇÚÊÞÇÏ ÅãÇãÊåãÇ ¿ ÝÑÌÚ ÇáÌæÇÈ : ãä ßÇä Úáì åÐÇ Ýåæ äÇÕÈ .

14 – Muhammad b. Idris at the end of al Saraa’ir, quoting from the Kitab Masaa’il al Rijal: from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Ziyad and Musa b. Muhammad b. `Ali b. `Isa (in the source too, except that the mentioned narrators have quoted it from Masaa'il of Muhammad b. `Ali b. `Isa), who said: I wrote to him, meaning `Ali b. Muhammad Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. I asked him about the nasib:  Does his examination (i.e. determination of his status) require more than his giving precedence (or, offering) to al Jibt and al Taghut, and the belief in their (pl. dual) Imamate? So the reply was received: One who is upon this, he is a nasib.


Who do you think Jibt and Taghut are?  Those are the names of pre-Islamic idols.  To understand who they are though, just ask yourself why would a companion be asking the Imam about Nasibis believing in their leadership and giving precedence to them over Imam `Ali ?  

Or here:

ÍÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä ÅÓÍÇÞ ÇáØÇáÞÇäí ÑÖí Çááå Úäå ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÚÈÏ ÇáÚÒíÒ Èä íÍíì ÞÇá: ÍÏËäí ãÍãÏ Èä ÒßÑíÇ ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚãÇÑÉ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá: ËáÇËÉ ßÇäæÇ íßÐÈæä Úáì ÑÓæá Çááå ÃÈæ åÑíÑÉ¡ æÃäÓ Èä ãÇáß¡ æÇãÑÃÉ.

Muhammad b. Ibrahim b. Ishaq at-Taliqani, may Allah be pleased with him, narrated to us. He said: `Abd al-`Aziz b. Yahya narrated to us. He said: Muhammad b. Zakariyya narrated to me. He said: Ja`far b. Muhammad b. `Ammara narrated to us from his father. He said: I heard Ja`far b. Muhammad ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã saying: Three would lie against the Messenger of Allah: Abu Huraya and Anas b. Malik and a woman.

Who do you really think "a woman" is referring to here?  Open up any random collection of hadiths from our opponents and maybe you'll figure it out.

Time and time again you find this type of language being employed in the hadiths, and when you get familiar with them you know perfectly well who is really being referred to in these types of narrations.

[Basim Ali]

Before some wise guy causes this thread to be closed...

I don't want to be an apologist, but the arguments seem alarmingly one-sided for some reason.
Cursing is fine, but ill-manners are not and doing it in front of the faces of Sunnis is also a big no-no. This is my poor attempt at trying to neutralize this discussion:

I would love to see people's comments on this (from Kitab Sulaym ibn Qays ~ apparently one of the 'dangerous' ones out there!):
ÝÞÇá áå Úáí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: ÝÅä ÇáÍÞ æÇááå ãÚí íÇÈä ÞíÓ ßãÇ ÃÞæá. æãÇ åáß ãä ÇáÇãÉ ÅáÇ ÇáäÇÕÈæä æÇáäÇßËæä æÇáãßÇÈÑæä æÇáÌÇÍÏæä æÇáãÚÇäÏæä¡ ÝÃãÇ ãä ÊãÓß ÈÇáÊæÍíÏ æÇáÃÞÑÇÑ ÈãÍãÏ Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÇáÃÓáÇã æáã íÎÑÌ ãä ÇáãáÉ æáã íÙÇåÑ ÚáíäÇ ÇáÙáãÉ æáã íäÕÈ áäÇ ÇáÚÏÇæÉ æÔß Ýí ÇáÎáÇÝÉ æáã íÚÑÝ ÃåáåÇ ææáÇÊåÇ æáã íÚÑÝ áäÇ æáÇíÉ æáã íäÕÈ áäÇ ÚÏÇæÉ¡ ÝÅä Ðáß ãÓáã ãÓÊÖÚÝ íÑÌì áå ÑÍãÉ Çááå æíÊÎæÝ Úáíå ÐäæÈå.
http://www.yasoob.or.../11/no1113.html

From Mishkat al Anwar (by at-Tabarasi):
-  Abi Osamah said that once he went to say farewell to Imam Sadiq (a.s). He narrated that Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: [...] Attend and do your prayers in their congregational prayers. Attend their burial ceremonies. Visit them when someone gets ill. Respect their rights. I get pleased when I hear that you are pious, honest, trustworthy, well behaved, and are known to be one of my followers. Then the people will say these are the manners that Imam Sadiq (a.s) has taught. Whenever you act otherwise, I will suffer from the bad consequences. I swear by God that my father told me: “One of the followers of Imam Ali (a.s) who lived in Mecca was the most trustworthy Shiite, and the most honest one. The people used to go to him to leave their goods or their wills for safekeeping. When people asked about him, they would be asked if anyone else could be found like him.” Therefore fear God, be a source of pride, and not a source of infamy for us. Attract all love and friendship towards us, and repel all evil and wrong accusations from us. We are not as we are said to be. There is a certain right established for us in the divine Book, and we are relatives of the Prophet of God (a.s). We are divinely Pure, and are born pure; and no one else can claim to be born pure, and he is a liar if he does so. Remember God often and remember death often. Recite the Quran. Send a lot of blessings for the Prophet since there are ten goods in this act. Remember what I advised you to do. I will trust you to God.”

- Amr ibn Aban narrated that Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: "O' You! The followers who are associated with us! Be a source of honor for us, not a source of infamy. Why can you not live among the people as Imam Ali's (a.s) companions did? Each one of them was the leader of the people and the one who called them to prayer where he lived. He was trustworthy and guarded their properties. Please visit the ill, participate in burial ceremonies, and pray in the mosques. Do not let others surpass you in performing good deeds. I swear by God that you are not superior to them in this regard." He then looked at Amr ibn Aban who was the youngest man present and said: "You who are the younger people should not be lazy. Go to visit them so often that they start to become your followers. Know that God is better for you than them."

- Abdullah ibn Bokir said that he went to see Imam Sadiq (a.s) along with two other persons. One of them asked Imam Sadiq (a.s) if he should attend the congregational prayers. The Imam (a.s) replied: "Go to the prayers. Attend the congregations. Visit the ill. Respect their rights." He then said: "Do you fear that we might mislead you to corruption? I swear by God that we will never mislead you."

- Sabit Mola Al-i-Hurayz narrated that Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: "Controlling your anger for your enemies when they are in power is a part of concealing faith, and is a means of protecting you from calamities in this world. Arguing with and swearing at the enemy without concealing faith is a form of abandoning God's orders. Therefore treat the people with caution so that your enemies cannot get control of you due to their animosity towards you."

- Zayd al-Shuh'ham quoted upon the authority of Imam Sadiq (a.s): "O' Zayd! Be patient with your enemies since you can never fight with those rebelling against God except by obeying Him. God will keep his believing servants away from evil, as you separate a strange female camel that does not belong to you from your male camels. O' Zayd! God has chosen and has established Islam. Therefore treat the people gently and with kindness."

- Ali ibn Yaqtayn narrated that Imam Kazim (a.s) said: "Order your companions to watch their tongues, abandon their animosity towards religion, and strive in worshipping God.[...]

- Abi Muhammad al-Vabeshi narrated that Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: "If there is a bad omen in anything, it is in the tongue. Watch what you say just as you guard your properties. [...]

- Abi Ubaydeh narrated that Imam Kazim (a.s) said: "I advise you to avoid liars and those who are always fighting with each other since they have abandoned what they have been ordered to do. O' Abi Ubaydeh! Treat the people according to their own manners, and try to treat them better than they treat you. We do not consider one to be intelligent unless he knows how to talk with others. He then recited: "But surely thou will know them by the tone of their speech." (The Holy Quran: Muhammad 47:30)

- Anbasat ibn Musab narrated that Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: "Associate with the people since in their view the love for Imam Ali (a.s) and the Blessed Fatima (a.s) has no benefit for you, and nothing is worse in their mind than mentioning the names of Ali and Fatima."

- Marazaem said that he was appointed by Imam Sadiq (a.s) to deliver a letter. He said that once he left, the Imam (a.s) called him and said: "Marazaem. Let there be nothing but good acts between you and the people, even if they swear at me."

- Imam Kazim (a.s) quoted on the authority of his father (a.s) on the authority of his grandfather (a.s): "Imam Zayn al-Abedin (a.s) took the hands of his son (being my grandfather) and said: O' my son! Do whatever good deeds anyone asks you to do. If he is a good man, a good deed has been done. And if he is not, at least you have performed your duty. If a man swears at you, and then apologizes, accept his apologies."

wa