35 replies to this topic

[.IceMan.]

Do you guys believe that Imam Ali is the face of God? , asthagfirallah.

Edited by .IceMan., 29 June 2011 - 06:51 AM.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

ali is the face of Allah
ali is the eyes of Allah
ali is the tongue of Allah
ali is the sword of Allah
ali is the lion of Allah

[.IceMan.]

Maula Dha Mallang, on 29 June 2011 - 07:15 AM, said:

ali is the face of Allah
ali is the eyes of Allah
ali is the tongue of Allah
ali is the sword of Allah
ali is the lion of Allah

Dude, are you insane? It's shirk to believe that God has a body or ocuppies a place. And now you're telling me that Ali is the face of God.

Didn't Imam ^Ali say "Two kinds of people will be damned on my account. Those who form exaggerated opinions about me, and those who under-estimate me because they hate me".

[Ruq]

.IceMan., on 29 June 2011 - 07:22 AM, said:

Dude, are you insane? It's shirk to believe that God has a body or ocuppies a place. And now you're telling me that Ali is the face of God.

Didn't Imam ^Ali say "Two kinds of people will be damned on my account. Those who form exaggerated opinions about me, and those who under-estimate me because they hate me".

To be fair, i think Maula Dha Mallang probably means that Ali(as) is representing God, or is one of the best representatives/examples of what is good and desireable when he says 'the face of...the tongue of...the sword of'. Although 'the eyes of...' is a bit confusing, unless its suggesting  'seeing' as perceiving in the best way.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

im not a wahabbi that i only believe in literalism.

these descriptions are what the prophet himself used to describe maula ali so technically you are calling the prophet of islam a mushrik and ghali and insane, not me.

[macisaac]

By saying they, the Imams , are the face of Allah it means they are the way Allah is come to.  That is:


- عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر، عن صفوان الجمال، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) في قول الله عزوجل: " كل شئ هالك إلا وجهه " قال: من أتى الله بما امر به من طاعة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله) فهو الوجه الذي لا يهلك و كذلك قال: " ومن يطع الرسول فقد أطاع الله “

(al-Kafi) A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from Safwan the cameleer from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding the saying of Allah عزوجل “Everything is destroyed but His face”.  He said: Whoever comes to Allah by what He commanded by of the obedience to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله, then it is the face which is not destroyed, and likewise he said “And whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah.”

حدثنا احمد بن محمد عن الحسين بن سعيد عن فضالة بن ايوب عن على بن ابى حمزة عن سيف بن عميرة عن ابى بصير (1) عن الحرث بن المغيرة قال كنا عند ابى عبد الله عليه السلام فسأله رجل عن قول الله تعالى كل شئ هالك الا وجهه (2) فقال ما يقولون قلت يقولون هلك (3) كل شئ الا وجهه فقال سبحان الله لقد قالوا عظيما انما عنى كل شئ هالك الا وجهه الذى يؤتى منه ونحن وجهه الذى يؤتى منه.

(Basa'ir ad-Darajat) Ahmad b. Muhammad narrated to us from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Faddala b. Ayyub from `Ali b. Abi Hamza from Sayf b. `Umayra from Abu Basir from al-Harth b. al-Mughira.  He said: We were with Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام and a man asked him about the saying of Allah تعالى “Everything is destroyed but His face”.  So he said: What do you they say?  He said: They say everything is destroyed except for His face.  So He said: Glorified be Allah!  They have said (something) colossal!  He only meant everything is destroyed except for His face which He is come to from it.  And we are His face which He is come to from it.

[Gypsy]

^ Metaphors are fine. Every language (including Arabic) has metaphors.


recently, we had the following discussion
http://www.shiachat....alias-is-Allah/

[Maula Dha Mallang]

Abd AlGhaffar, on 29 June 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

Then whats the point of making such outlandish comments? When he could just say Ali is wali Allah or his teachings are the means to know Allah(swt) since Imam had perfect ma'rifa of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì??????????????

do you believe that ali is the nuktah under the ba of bismillah? do you believe he is the quran e naatiq?

a few hadiths for those of you who are so quick to deny the status of maula ali without even stopping to think, such is your shiat, mash'Allah

courtesy of haidar al karar

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr from Muhammad ibn Humran from Aswad ibn Sa‘id who has said the following.
"I was in the presence of Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.), who began to speak without any question from me." "We are the authority of Allah. We are the door to Allah. We are the tongue of Allah. We are the face of Allah. We are the eyes of Allah in His people. We are the authority in the commandments of Allah among His servants."

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Ahmad ibn abu Nasr from Hassan al-Jammal who has said that Hashim ibn abu ‘Ammara al-Janbi reported to him this. "I heard Amirul Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) saying, ‘I am the eyes of Allah. I am the hands of Allah. I am the sides of Allah. I am the door to Allah."

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Muhammad ibn Isma‘il ibn Bazi‘a from his uncle Hamza ibn Bazi‘a from Ali ibn Suwayd from abu al-Hassan Musa ibn Ja‘far (a.s.) who has said the following.
About the words of Allah "Woe to me because of my failure to fulfill my duties from the side of God. . ." (39:56). The Imam (a.s.) said that the side of Allah is Amirul Mu’minin (a.s.) and so are the successors of the high position until the matters will reach to the last one among them."


imam ali must also be a ghali!!!!

[Maula Dha Mallang]

Abd AlGhaffar, on 29 June 2011 - 08:44 AM, said:

^why don't you include "we are the door to Allah" when you make your earlier statements. That will make your statement much clearer and negate the possibility of anybody assuming you are claiming imam ali(as) to be more than a slave of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

its funnier my way to catch out the jahil people (not talking about you though)

[diracdeltafunc]

Abd AlGhaffar, on 29 June 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

Yes brother there is many such ahadith. And several instances were the imam(as) killed such heretics




Astagfirullah, I feel sorry for the real truth seekers who bump into such information. I for one, would turn my back to shi'ism in an instant, if this what I was told. May Allah(swt) keep satan far away from us.

If you are sunni, you should believe in the other word of Allah, Hadees e Qudsi which should make it crystal clear that Imam Ali a.s. is everything that MDM said is :







Hadith Qudsi 25: Very important Hadith!!!

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (Radhi Allahu Ta'ala Anhu), who said that the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim) said:

    Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said: Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works (Nawafil) so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him.

It was related by al-Bukhari.

http://www.ummah.net...0_qudsi.html#25

[.IceMan.]

Maula Dha Mallang, on 29 June 2011 - 07:46 AM, said:

im not a wahabbi that i only believe in literalism.

these descriptions are what the prophet himself used to describe maula ali so technically you are calling the prophet of islam a mushrik and ghali and insane, not me.

You might not be a wahabi but you're a ignorant extremist. You say "the prophet" like nothing without respect but you call his cousin Ali, maula and you pray for blessings upon him.

Imams and prophets are humans okay? They've all tasted death and are NOTHING without God.  

brother

Edited by .IceMan., 29 June 2011 - 12:09 PM.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

im sorry, that was a mistake on my part.

may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon rasool e paak muhammed and his purified blood family always, and may Allah hasten the return of our awaited imam (atf).

and may the endless curses of Allah, the angels, the jinns, the shia and the animal and plant kingdom be upon anyone who showed even a second of animosity towards them, whether they be sahaba, caliphs or wives of the prophet.

happy?

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Maula Dha Mallang, on 29 June 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

im sorry, that was a mistake on my part.

may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon rasool e paak muhammed and his purified blood family always, and may Allah hasten the return of our awaited imam (atf).

and may the endless curses of Allah, the angels, the jinns, the shia and the animal and plant kingdom be upon anyone who showed even a second of animosity towards them, whether they be sahaba, caliphs or wives of the prophet.

happy?

Like

[Muhammed Ali]

Prophet Isa [a] is called Ruhullah, spirit of God.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

Doesn't the Quran say wherever we turn there is the "face of Allah" too? Is it speaking of his face in general or Imam Ali? Something to ponder.

I always interpret the references to body parts when speaking of God to be more metaphorical and having a Kabbalistic meaning.

[Dhulfikar]

Saintly_Jinn23, on 30 June 2011 - 11:55 AM, said:

Doesn't the Quran say wherever we turn there is the "face of Allah" too? Is it speaking of his face in general or Imam Ali? Something to ponder.

I always interpret the references to body parts when speaking of God to be more metaphorical and having a Kabbalistic meaning.

Well it sound that this is attributed only for Allah سبحانه وتعالى. Humans can only represent God in Earth by limited way, so these qualities like Ali is Face of Allah is different than actual Face of Allah in methaphorical sense.

Edited by Zufa, 30 June 2011 - 02:12 PM.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

Unless "the Face" can manifest in various ways, Ali   being one of them.

[Dhulfikar]

Saintly_Jinn23, on 30 June 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

Unless "the Face" can manifest in various ways, Ali   being one of them.

Yes, that is correct.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

For someone who may mistake the face of Allah to be referring to a humanoid kind of face, suggesting God is anthropomorphic, what is the best way to explain what the face is.


The Jewish Kabbalists understood anthropomorphic references to God to be referring to certain character traits that were represented by specific beings such as angels. Would it be safe to say that Ali was not God himself but basically acted as representative of God on Earth while he was alive making him the "face of God?" I think this would be a good way to explain Ali as well as the nature of the face.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23, 30 June 2011 - 03:08 PM.

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

Salam,
I think some of us need to brush up on hadiths and realize what it means "Face of Allah" and not jump to saying its ghulu because thats what wahabbis do. Always make sure First that are You understanding it right before pointing fingers at someone else and labeling him.

[JimJam]

The Face of Allah is that aspect though which people come to have faith in Allah

“Once a person asked (Imam) abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of
divine supreme covenant, about the meaning of the words of
Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, ‘everything will be destroyed
except the face of Allah . . .’ (28:88)
“The Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, asked,
‘What do they say about it?’ I replied, ‘They say that everything
will perish except the ‘Face’ of Allah.’ The Imam said, ‘Glory
belongs to Allah. What they say is monstrous. What is meant by
‘Face’ is that aspect of Allah’s relation with people through
which they (persons of the highest degree of excellence)
establish belief in Him.’”
Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah, H 349, Ch. 23, h1

“Once I asked (Imam) abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, about the meaning of the words of Allah, the
Most Holy, the Most High, ‘everything will be destroyed except
the face of Allah. . . .’ (28:88)
“The Imam said, ‘It means whoever comes to Allah through
obeying His commandments, i.e. following Prophet Muhammad,
recipient of divine supreme covenant, is the ‘Face’ (the aspect of
Allah’s relation with people) of Allah that does not perish. So
also are His words, “One who obeys the Messenger has certainly
obeyed Allah. . . .’” (4:80)
Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah, H 350, Ch. 23, h2

“We (family of Prophet Muhammad) are the al-Mathani (the
double) that Allah gave to Prophet Muhammad, recipient of
divine supreme covenant. We are the Wajhu Allah (face of
Allah, meaning a certain aspect of Allah’s relation with people)
that moves among you on earth. We are the eyes of Allah
(overseers or observers from the side of Allah) in His creatures.
We are the hands of Allah that are open with blessings for His
servants. Those who wanted to know us have known us. There
are people who are ignorant about us, they are ignorant of us and
of the leadership of the pious people.”
Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah H 351, Ch. 23, h3

“Once I was in the presence of (Imam) abu Ja’far, recipient of
divine supreme covenant, who began to speak without any
question from me. ‘We are the authority of Allah. We are the
doors to Allah. We are the tongues of Allah. We are the face of
Allah. We are the eyes of Allah in His people. We are the
authority in the commandments of Allah among His servants,’”
Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah, H 355, Ch. 23, h7

“Hashim ibn abu ‘Ummarah al-Janbiy reported to him this. ‘I
heard Amir al-Mu’minin Ali ibn abu Talib, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, saying, “I am the eyes of Allah. I am the
hand of Allah. I am the side of Allah. I am the door to Allah.’”
Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah, H 356, Ch. 23, h8

“Once I heard (Imam) abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme
covenant, saying, ‘Through us Allah is worshipped. Through us
Allah is known. Through us belief in the Oneness of Allah, the
Most Holy, the Most High, is established. Muhammad is the
Hijab (curtain) of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High.’”
Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah,, H 358, Ch. 23, h10

Edited by JimJam, 30 June 2011 - 04:40 PM.

[xstatik2]

Maula Dha Mallang, on 29 June 2011 - 07:15 AM, said:

ali is the face of Allah
ali is the eyes of Allah
ali is the tongue of Allah
ali is the sword of Allah
ali is the lion of Allah

Ali is Wali Allah ! ! Subhan Allah

[.IceMan.]

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Imam Ja'far said that whoever believes that God the almighty has a body is commiting SHIRK.'

Don't know why but I've always had problems with trusting these hadiths because they are like;

Narrate by Ali ibn Kassim who heard from his father who heard from his brother who heard from Ibrahim ibn Hammad who heard from his two sister who heard from his uncle who heard from his father who heard from Karim ibn Aqil who heard from Sadiq ibn Kathir and Ishaaq ibn Yassir who heard from Jabir ibn Qasim who heard from his brother who heard from his wife's cousin who heard from his step father that Aba Abdillah said so and so.

I mean like LOL, bring 15 people, sit down in a circle, tell something to the one next to you. Let's say for example, "that Ali is the wali of Allah and the succesor of Prophet Muhammad " and tell him to pass it to the next person, and the next person passes it to the next one and so on until the last person tells it back to you, he will say "Ali the leader of the wayl, and the succesor of Allah".

Tried this in school.

Edited by .IceMan., 30 June 2011 - 04:48 PM.

[JimJam]

^The face of Allah is not a physical face, can you not understand this? Anyone who receives divine guidance from Allah is included in the face of Allah

Quote

“Once a person asked (Imam) abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of
divine supreme covenant, about the meaning of the words of
Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, ‘everything will be destroyed
except the face of Allah . . .’ (28:88)
“The Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, asked,
‘What do they say about it?’ I replied, ‘They say that everything
will perish except the ‘Face’ of Allah.’ The Imam said, ‘Glory
belongs to Allah. What they say is monstrous. What is meant by
‘Face’ is that aspect of Allah’s relation with people through
which they (persons of the highest degree of excellence)
establish belief in Him.’”
Al Kafi-The Book on the Oneness of Allah, H 349, Ch. 23, h1

Edited by JimJam, 30 June 2011 - 04:58 PM.

[Jafar Hussain]

Hazart Imam Ali is the servant  of god.