21 replies to this topic

[velayat2011]

  

After more than 60 years of occupation, genocide and media isolation, the voices screaming 'Free Free Palestine!' around the world are now louder than ever before.


When only a decade ago, just a few people, in a handful of cities across the world, rallied to commemorate and express their solidarity for Palestine on Nakba Day, Naksa Day and International al-Quds Day; today, millions rally in nearly all cities across the globe.

Several organizations, small and big, have been established in all corners of the world to raise awareness of the Palestinian peoples agonizing struggle.

Artists of all genres, from Lowkey to Dave Randall, have dedicated their music to the cause, with tracks like 'Long Live Palestine' and 'Freedom for Palestine.'

People of all faiths, from Jews to Muslims, and all nationalities, across all continents have joined the resistance movement.

And now, the Intifada is globalized!

The second Freedom Flotilla, with humanitarian aid and construction material, will soon arrive at the impoverished Gaza Strip. Last year's flotilla was stopped by the Israeli regime's Special Forces, before reaching its destination. Nine activists aboard the flotilla were shot to death. The Israeli regime released the 'We Con the World' music video to mock the activists aboard the flotilla and their failed attempt at breaking the Gaza siege, as well as to describe them as terrorists.

This year's flotilla however, is nearly twice as large. And surely it doesn't surprise anyone to know that the United Nations officials have asked the Mediterranean countries to block the flotilla before it arrives at the Gaza coast. Hillary Clinton has also criticized the peaceful activists for seeking to provoke the Israeli regime and “creating a situation in which the Israelis have the right to defend themselves." Additionally, the Israeli regime has said it stands prepared for the arrival of flotilla, clearly indicating more of the same acts, we all know the Israeli regime would get away with.

After last year's attack and illegal arrest of hundreds of innocent activists, the people of the world rallied for days until the Israeli regime had no choice but to release them. These people achieved something that the United Nations had on so many occasions failed to do.

This may be why, Israeli officials quickly wrote a 'master plan' when it became official that Palestine is to request for a full membership at the United Nations in September. Because, no matter how much you try to erase someone's history, no matter how many apartheid walls you build around them or how much white phosphorus you use on them, if the people stand united, there is nothing you can do.

Their master plan, as leaked by cables, shows that Israeli has instructed its embassies to lobby at the highest level, to get as many UN member states as possible to vote against a Palestinian membership and, to further increase the publication of anti-Palestine and pro-Israel pieces in the mainstream media. However that is possible, I mean, how much more one-sided could mainstream media get on the Palestine-Israel issue?

So far, more than half of the UN's member states have already made declarations recognizing Palestine as a state.

But the United Nations General Assembly, where it is decided whether a country can be a member of the UN or not, has a big brother, the United Nations Security Council. And the General Assembly is only allowed to vote on matters such as this, if the Security Council recommends it to do so.

And the much peace-loving, Nobel Peace Prize winner Barack Obama, who in his speech addressed to AIPAC before his election victory in 2008, promised that Jerusalem would forever be "the undivided capital of Israel", and promised $30 billion in aid to the Israeli regime, once again promised the same crowd that he would veto any Palestinian effort for a UN membership, at the Security Council.

It seems that, a voice, louder than half of the governments around the world, does not matter. Endless international campaigns to break the Gaza siege, masses rallying in support for a free Palestine, are all totally hopeless, as long as one, and only one government can veto against it all.

Is it now fair to say that the United Nations has lost its credibility? That it has failed to actually unite the nations? That it's about time it dissolved and was replaced?

[Syrian Sister]

Israhell is going all out threatening the flottila's. Btw turkey's not taking part in the next flotilla, it's decided to brown nose israel instead.

Edited by Syrian Sister, 29 June 2011 - 11:22 AM.

[hejsansvejsan]

Does anybody really believe Israel will not stop the flotilla?

But the Gaza-Egyption border is now open. So what is the problem? The flotilla is nothing but a stupid provocation.

The best solution would be if Gaza reunited with a democratic Egypt and the stupid idea of a palestinian state was abolished.

Edited by hejsansvejsan, 29 June 2011 - 04:37 PM.

[Yousuf Ahmed]

hejsansvejsan, on 29 June 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

Does anybody really believe Israel will not stop the flotilla?

But the Gaza-Egyption border is now open. So what is the problem? The flotilla is nothing but a stupid provocation.

The best solution would be if Gaza reunited with a democratic Egypt and the stupid idea of a palestinian state was abolished.

The stupid idea of the Scandinavian state shiuld be abolished  !!

[hejsansvejsan]

Yousuf Ahmed, on 12 July 2011 - 08:39 AM, said:

The stupid idea of the Scandinavian state shiuld be abolished  !!

The idea of a Scandinavian state is dead long time ago. I have never heard anyone question the independence of the five Nordic countries. All of them have their national languages. But which is the Palestinian identity? What  makes Palestinians different from other arabs?

[shamoun]

Why do people have such difficulty with the concept of indigenous Palestinian Arabs? Isn't this what the Balfour declaration said: [The British Government] will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object [creation of Jewish homeland], it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"?

[Yousuf Ahmed]

hejsansvejsan, on 12 July 2011 - 10:28 AM, said:

The idea of a Scandinavian state is dead long time ago. I have never heard anyone question the independence of the five Nordic countries. All of them have their national languages. But which is the Palestinian identity? What  makes Palestinians different from other Arabs?

In that sense, what is the difference between Palestinian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian, Saudi, Kuwaiti, Qatari, Emirati, Yemeni, Bahraini, Iraqi, Omani, Libyan, Algerian etc. etc. etc. Arabs ?

Edited by Yousuf Ahmed, 12 July 2011 - 03:00 PM.

[hejsansvejsan]

Yousuf Ahmed, on 12 July 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

In that sense, what is the difference between Palestinian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian, Saudi, Kuwaiti, Qatari, Emirati, Yemeni, Bahraini, Iraqi, Omani, Libyan, Algerian etc. etc. etc. Arabs ?

Yes, exactly. Why do they have to be separate countries? I can understand that it is a problem that the dictators will disagree about who should rule the united country. But if the people could decide, wouldn´t it be better with a united arab republic?

[satyaban]

hejsansvejsan, on 12 July 2011 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yes, exactly. Why do they have to be separate countries? I can understand that it is a problem that the dictators will disagree about who should rule the united country. But if the people could decide, wouldn´t it be better with a united arab republic?

That would scare the pants off Iran.

[Banooota]

hejsansvejsan, on 12 July 2011 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yes, exactly. Why do they have to be separate countries? I can understand that it is a problem that the dictators will disagree about who should rule the united country. But if the people could decide, wouldn´t it be better with a united arab republic?

Thats ridiculous.  so should USA, Canada, Australia and Britain all join hands and become one country.  after all, they all speak english.

you are basing all your opinions on the fact they all speak the same language.  the cultures within these countries are all very different.  united "arabhood" has always worked really well, yes?  sure, of course, especially in the case of Saddam Hussein (la'anatullah) and the Baathists.

i think you need to think before you say things that might offend others.  just a thought.

fe aman illah

[hejsansvejsan]

Banooota, on 13 July 2011 - 02:21 AM, said:

Thats ridiculous.  so should USA, Canada, Australia and Britain all join hands and become one country.  after all, they all speak english.

you are basing all your opinions on the fact they all speak the same language.  the cultures within these countries are all very different.  united "arabhood" has always worked really well, yes?  sure, of course, especially in the case of Saddam Hussein (la'anatullah) and the Baathists.

i think you need to think before you say things that might offend others.  just a thought.

fe aman illah

Who would I offend?
The organisation of a state can be made in many different ways. E.g. the states of USA have a rather high degree of independence. Britain, Canada and Australia are very independent. But they still share the same Queen. I believe decentralisation of power is a good thing. But borders should be open. E.g Gaza and the WEst Bank could have a high degree of self rule. But borders with Egypt and Jordan should be open as the borders between the states of USA.

THe cultures within USA, Canada, Australia and Britain are at least as different as in the Arab world. There are Indians, French, Aborigines, Celtics etc and a lot more different  immigrant communities than in the Islamic world (BTW who wants to be an immigrant there ?)

[satyaban]

hejsansvejsan, on 12 July 2011 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yes, exactly. Why do they have to be separate countries? I can understand that it is a problem that the dictators will disagree about who should rule the united country. But if the people could decide, wouldn´t it be better with a united arab republic?

Hasn't a United Arab Republic been tried before?

[Banooota]

hejsansvejsan, on 13 July 2011 - 03:32 AM, said:

Who would I offend?
The organisation of a state can be made in many different ways. E.g. the states of USA have a rather high degree of independence. Britain, Canada and Australia are very independent. But they still share the same Queen. I believe decentralisation of power is a good thing. But borders should be open. E.g Gaza and the WEst Bank could have a high degree of self rule. But borders with Egypt and Jordan should be open as the borders between the states of USA.

THe cultures within USA, Canada, Australia and Britain are at least as different as in the Arab world. There are Indians, French, Aborigines, Celtics etc and a lot more different  immigrant communities than in the Islamic world (BTW who wants to be an immigrant there ?)

you offend me.  

i'd like to be an immigrant there, actually.  or at least be able to be one.  i'd like to be able to return to my family's homeland.  the place that you believe should never have independence, Palestine.  you have no valid points.  if you're to be listened to, why is scotland seperate from england?  they're basically the same place, right?  

and "borders with Egypt and Jordan should be open as the borders between the states of USA".  what do you not understand about politics/geography?  the states in USA are not seperate countries, so how will the borders between states and countries be similar?!  

additionally, the last time arabs tried to "unite", thousands who didn't fit into their ideas where killed, murdered etc.  are you ok for these atrocities to happen again? the idea was tried and proven it doesn't work.  arabs (despite speaking the same language) don't all get on with each other, shock horror.  

quit whilst you're ahead.  additionally, if you hold such contempt for arabs and their lands, why bother commenting on this thread.

fi aman illah

[Bonafide Hustler]

hejsansvejsan, on 12 July 2011 - 10:28 AM, said:

The idea of a Scandinavian state is dead long time ago. I have never heard anyone question the independence of the five Nordic countries. All of them have their national languages. But which is the Palestinian identity? What  makes Palestinians different from other arabs?

hejsansvejsan, on 12 July 2011 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yes, exactly. Why do they have to be separate countries? I can understand that it is a problem that the dictators will disagree about who should rule the united country. But if the people could decide, wouldn´t it be better with a united arab republic?

Palestinians have an identity because South Koreans have one, because Pakistanis have one and because Israeli Jews have one, we have to deal with realities here. As inherently corrupt the whole idea of a nation state is,  Nation states do exist.

What you are advocating in principle is what we all stand for, but its a bit utopian given the realities on ground, you would have to take a lot of steps before these politically imposed borders are eliminated and people can live through free association and self governance.  Ideally the best solution for the Palestine/Israeli conflict is a no state solution, but that is not practical right away, you would have to first establish a 2 state solution, since the whole world seems to back the consensus, and then perhaps down the road, there can be a no state arrangement.  With respects to Palestine you have to be fair, if Israel has a right to exist (as immorally and unjustly as it was created) then so does an independent Palestinian state, that is why the entire world with the exception of US, Israel and 2-3 more smaller countries back a 2 state settlement.  The dispute is not settled because the US simply vetos a vote on which it stands virtually alone.  The Palestinians are being very generous and compromising, they do not want Israel to be declared Palestine, they are with the overwhelming international consensus of having a small state in Gaza and the West Bank with east Jerusalem as its capital. israel is only interested in expansion. They are 2 very distinct cultures, but I agree that is no reason to separate human beings through imaginary drawn lines, but that is the system that has unfortunately been imposed on us.

With respects to most of the Arab states today, you can blame the post war western powers for dividing the people by imposing a brutal nation state system with no regard for their cultures and historic alliances.  If you take a look at how they drew up Iraq etc, with total disregard for the different cultures of the region, the Kurds were split across 3 nations, it was bound to be a disaster.   The Ottomon empire as brutal and discriminatory as it was had the right idea in a lot of ways, it allowed certain regions within its empire to run independently with a lot of autonomy through self governance, it was a step in the right direction, but we obviously have regressed.  It is what it is, in creating Pakistan millions of lives were lost senselessly through migration etc, it really is a game for the men in power.  You have the right idea in mind, but first we need people to actually take control of their nations before the these imposed borders can be weakened, that should be our foremost focus.

satyaban, on 13 July 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

Hasn't a United Arab Republic been tried before?

It did not fail because the idea was bad in principle, how can it be bad?  It failed because it wasn't the people who tried to come together, it was their corrupt rulers trying to impose a fake sense of unity after having promoted hate through vile propaganda.  The idea here though isnt really about Arab unity in the end, it is about human beings irrespective of their faith/ethnicity/language being able to live in peace together without any borders.  You already see shining examples in the most multicultural cities of the world, there really is no reason why such societies cannot be extended.  It simply is very difficult to achieve these goals within a region run by dictators who tend to profit of sectarian/ethnic divisions that they have helped sponsor/foster, with direct backing of the west of course.

[hejsansvejsan]

Bonafide Hustler, on 13 July 2011 - 06:47 AM, said:

Palestinians have an identity because South Koreans have one, because Pakistanis have one and because Israeli Jews have one, we have to deal with realities here. As inherently corrupt the whole idea of a nation state is,  Nation states do exist.

What you are advocating in principle is what we all stand for, but its a bit utopian given the realities on ground, you would have to take a lot of steps before these politically imposed borders are eliminated and people can live through free association and self governance.  Ideally the best solution for the Palestine/Israeli conflict is a no state solution, but that is not practical right away, you would have to first establish a 2 state solution, since the whole world seems to back the consensus, and then perhaps down the road, there can be a no state arrangement.  With respects to Palestine you have to be fair, if Israel has a right to exist (as immorally and unjustly as it was created) then so does an independent Palestinian state, that is why the entire world with the exception of US, Israel and 2-3 more smaller countries back a 2 state settlement.  The dispute is not settled because the US simply vetos a vote on which it stands virtually alone.  The Palestinians are being very generous and compromising, they do not want Israel to be declared Palestine, they are with the overwhelming international consensus of having a small state in Gaza and the West Bank with east Jerusalem as its capital. israel is only interested in expansion. They are 2 very distinct cultures, but I agree that is no reason to separate human beings through imaginary drawn lines, but that is the system that has unfortunately been imposed on us.

With respects to most of the Arab states today, you can blame the post war western powers for dividing the people by imposing a brutal nation state system with no regard for their cultures and historic alliances.  If you take a look at how they drew up Iraq etc, with total disregard for the different cultures of the region, the Kurds were split across 3 nations, it was bound to be a disaster.   The Ottomon empire as brutal and discriminatory as it was had the right idea in a lot of ways, it allowed certain regions within its empire to run independently with a lot of autonomy through self governance, it was a step in the right direction, but we obviously have regressed.  It is what it is, in creating Pakistan millions of lives were lost senselessly through migration etc, it really is a game for the men in power.  You have the right idea in mind, but first we need people to actually take control of their nations before the these imposed borders can be weakened, that should be our foremost focus.



It did not fail because the idea was bad in principle, how can it be bad?  It failed because it wasn't the people who tried to come together, it was their corrupt rulers trying to impose a fake sense of unity after having promoted hate through vile propaganda.  The idea here though isnt really about Arab unity in the end, it is about human beings irrespective of their faith/ethnicity/language being able to live in peace together without any borders.  You already see shining examples in the most multicultural cities of the world, there really is no reason why such societies cannot be extended.  It simply is very difficult to achieve these goals within a region run by dictators who tend to profit of sectarian/ethnic divisions that they have helped sponsor/foster, with direct backing of the west of course.

Good points!
And it is not up to me to decide whether there should be a Palestinian state or not. But I have the right to express my opinion. I think it is a better idea to have a united arab republic or maybe a United States of Arabia. And if the arab spring is successful I think this is a realistic alternative. I would prefere a no  state solution. But I find this most utopic.
I think the creation of a Jewish state was a big mistake. But now Israel is already an established state. So we must try to do the best of the sityation. USA definitely has a key role. Obama is on the right way. But as I have written before,  narrowminded american citizens may prevent him from continuing.

[Rothchild]

What is so special about palestine?  They never seemed to have any importance until Israel was formed.

[Banooota]

Rothchild, on 14 July 2011 - 11:43 PM, said:

What is so special about palestine?  They never seemed to have any importance until Israel was formed.

does a country require importance to have the right to exist?  you could say that about a lot of countries.  whats the importance of denmark, for example?

i think the point is, with the creation of israel, many palestinians were displaced and their land was stolen and they were forced out.  some are still living under dreadful conditions in cities such as hebron.  i think its a humanitarian issue rather than an issue about what palestinians can give to the rest of the world.

just a thought

fi aman illah

[satyaban]

Banooota, on 15 July 2011 - 02:20 AM, said:

does a country require importance to have the right to exist?  you could say that about a lot of countries.  whats the importance of denmark, for example?

i think the point is, with the creation of israel, many palestinians were displaced and their land was stolen and they were forced out.  some are still living under dreadful conditions in cities such as hebron.  i think its a humanitarian issue rather than an issue about what palestinians can give to the rest of the world.

just a thought

fi aman illah

The Palestinians have all requirements to be a nation of there own. a common culture, common language and most important a common goal of unity as a nation, they would be in control of their destiny. With sovereignty no one could steal their land again.

Edited by satyaban, 15 July 2011 - 09:04 AM.

[hejsansvejsan]

satyaban, on 15 July 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

The Palestinians have all requirements to be a nation of there own. a common culture, common language and most important a common goal of unity as a nation, they would be in control of their destiny. With sovereignty no one could steal their land again.

Palestinians have a commun culture with their neighbours in Egypt and Jordan and a common language with therest of the arab world.
The West Bank and Gaza are separated by Israel. Wouldn´t it be a lot more practical for the West Bank to unite with Jordan and Gaza with Egypt just like they were before the 1967 war? After all they are arabs.
As I said it is not up to me to decide. But I can express my opinion. If the Arabs can unite I think they will be very powerful.

[satyaban]

hejsansvejsan
You are talking about religion I am not. I am talking about their heritage, a history that is unique to that area. Also you are suggesting a further division of the Palestinians which although I haven't taken a poll I don't think they would find joy in that, no more than Alaskans would find if we partnered them up with Russia or Canada. Furthermore your plan is a continuation of others making determinations for Palestine and you see where that got them. What is needed is for the West Bank and the Gaza strip be joined good and proper.

I believe your intentions are good but we must learn from history. After WWII the winners did a poor job of creating territories and worst of all kingdoms. What sense did it makes to win a war against tyranny, oppression the whole lot and then support and create kingdoms, so much for democracy.

[Basra]

The answer for Palestine is justice in one state.  The Zionist invaders (who have no "right" to the land to begin with) will never accept this (the one-state solution) because their racist Zionist colonialist apartheid system demands their Zionist "Jewish" minority rule over the majority of people who are the oppressed indigenous Palestinians (I'm speaking of the reality that Palestinians and Palestinian refugees make up the majority of people in historic Palestine, that is from the Jordan River in the east to the Mediterranean Sea in the west).  You will often hear the oppressive Zionist colonialist regime speaking of the "demographic threat" of Palestinian birth rights and the Zionists fear of the Palestinian right of return to their homes that the Zionists usurped (the right of return for Palestinian refugees is guaranteed and demanded by international law).  The Zionists are again racist colonialists.

Edited by Basra, 15 July 2011 - 08:39 PM.

[satyaban]

Fortunately those at the bargaining table aren't wasting their time hoping for something that will never happen and are trying for something that at least has a hope. I don't think there is anyone really believes attacking Israel will be successful in driving them out. Considering the "right of return" those eligible must be what 70yrs old now, there aren't many of them anyway. I would be very interested in knowing how Iran's immigration policy compares to Israel's.