61 replies to this topic

[Abu Izrael]

Just thought I should share this video of S. Nakshawani talking about Khums and the problems involving the way Maraj3 handle Khums. I couldn't agree more with the Sayed, it's something that I've been trying to bring up for a long time, however people don't take this seriously enough.
starts at 12:35 and continues to  

[La fata illa Ali]

We all know what would happen if we asked for a report as to how the khums was spent...Everybody would have their own ideas as to how it should be spent and upon recieving the receipt most ppl would be like...What he spent my money for that!!!

Even IF there was no corruption at all, it would still lead to all sorts of questioning regarding the best way to spend it and ppl would feel like they have a say in how it should be spent as they think it is there money (Pre-dominantly North American thinking).

What you have to remeber is that khums is not ur money, it is Imam's (atfs) money so you do not have a say in how it is spent. The problem lies in the fact that, if it is Imam's (atfs) money, then do the marja's have a signed letter from Imam (atfs) giving them permission to spend it in his name how they see fit???

I do not think such a letter exists with his seal. Unless u can provide me evidence.

However I still believe that khums is wajib and It should be paid and that Syed Nakhshawani brings up a good point. However his solution is not the answer. Instead of everybody getting details of how the money is spent, A 1) Muslim 2) Auditing firm , should publish some 'results' that the process isn't corrupt.


My opinion only.

[Abu Izrael]

He is right when he says the shia are all silent on this, and the wakeels have way too much control over the money. I have heard stories of wakils even pocketing khums money, others making a living off of it. I'm not saying we should have a say in how it is spent, but we should at least know, and how much there is. Do you think people will still pay khums to the same person if they see how they mispend it?

Edited by HassoonBazoon, 18 May 2011 - 06:10 PM.

[StopTheNonsense]

Strange, would he still be saying the same thing if he was actually from within the Hawza and was in a position to collect and spend Khums funds?!!

Sour grapes?!

If Ammar has trust issues with the Marjas or their reps then he has trust issues with the entire religious establishment and should rethink everything, starting with the validity of his parent's marriage which, I'm sad to say, was derived from the same "dodgy" khums-collecting scholars and their reps who need to be audited and questioned!

Either be a follower or a leader; if you're not a leader (which you're not, since a uni education will never make you a Mujtahid) then just follow and have some trust in the system that gave you a legitimate birth!

I for one have never really had much money to give Khums (the one time I did, it was actually returned to me by the rep, as I think he decided that I needed it more, which I did), but to question how the money is spent is to question the credibility of the institution and I would sleep the night comfortably knowing that I've fulfilled my duty. As to why "we don't have more English translations", well maybe you should ask yourself dear Syed Ammar. Why don't we? And who is to say that is our top priority? It's a bit shameless to go on a pulpit in a mosque largely paid for in Khums with the approval of the Marajas and question them as to how they spent the money!

If you have questions go directly to the scholars, don't use people's time (especially in Fatemyah) and khums funds to launch a public attack on people who are guarding our faith.

[Replicant]

^You need to calm down and stop insulting Sayed Ammar. You are living in a fantasy world if you think there are no problems with the system.

[Abu Izrael]

I dont know where you got that if it werent for Khums, S Ammar wouldn't be around. Unless you're referring to the fact that his grandfather was a representative for Sayed Khoei, which has little to do with this.
How do you know the place he was speaking in was paid for by Khums funds? If it was, did he himself say it was bad to open Masjids or centers with Khums? He has a right to question our institutions as every Shi'a should do. It is a serious matter when Allah's money is being put to no good use.

[StopTheNonsense]

"Stop insulting S Ammar"?! He's insulting the entire Marja'ya by suggesting there's foul play and..

I never insulted him either, I merely "questioned" his intentions as he did with our Marjas and their reps (who are appointed by the Marjas).

If reps are corrupt then I guess that would include his grandfather (who if I'm not mistaken was a secretary BTW, not a rep).

A few points that need to be born in mind:

1. If anyone fails to trust the system in how funds are managed, they have not only lost confidence in the faculty of Ijtihad of the the marjas but also in their piety, which is a basic component of being a marja.

2. It is this very same Ijtihad which legitimized Ammar's birth (as well as every other Shia). So doubting it, once again, is not exactly the right move!

3. If, rather than being a matter of trust (which in Ammar's case it seems to be) it is a question of priorities, then without a doubt he is in no position to judge that aspect, as he lacks even the most basic Hawza qualifications.

4. If he (or Bazzoon or anyone else) has "questions" about how the funds are spent (not that it is our business to begin with) then you go directly to the Marja and his reps to ask or offer "valuable" suggestions, not go on a rant on the pulpit of Imam Hussein effectively undermining the entire religious institution in the minds of those less educated. Sure, I'm sure he'd get a few nods and claps from some ignorant folks, having acted as "the people's champion" but he should think of the words that he utters and what effect they might have before he uses the pulpit of Ahlelbait to attack their students; the Marjas.

[Replicant]

^You blatantly just don't like him and are venting out your anger.
Like I've said, there are reports of misuse of money everywhere, you're delusional if you think otherwise. It's not the Marjas themselves doing it, but the network beneath them (before you attack me for insulting the whole system, I don't mean EVERY representative does it, but there are a few here and there with bad intentions).
All the system needs is a bit of an update and more transparency - that is all. We have a right to ask what the money is being used for because it is in our interests as well.
I 100% agree with Sayed Ammar that money needs to be spent on translating books because us in the west who can't understand Arabic seem to know Bukhari and Muslim better than our own books. Our classical stuff is not available to us and we can't just keep getting our info from al-islam.org.

Edited by Replicant, 19 May 2011 - 01:16 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Quote

2. It is this very same Ijtihad which legitimized Ammar's birth (as well as every other Shia).

I don't understand this.

[StopTheNonsense]

No, again, you are wrong.. You have no right to question where or how the money is spent because it was never your money to begin with. It's hard, I know, but you and Ammar have to get your head around the fact this money, once accrued and it was time to pay it, automatically departed the sphere of your assets because it belonged to God all along.

Now, even compared to the lowest ranking representative of the Marja (if there are ranks), S ammar is less qualified in every way (except maybe taqwa which is impossible to quantify and judge) and cannot possibly be in a better position to prioritize unless Marjas see him as a worthy representative and appoint him in a position where he can make that decision. Maybe then he'll stop complaining.

Now, unless you respond to my points clearly (for your convenience I've reorganized my arguments in point form), stop wasting my time.

Br. Haidar: read my earlier post to know what I meant. I'll clarify further if you wish.

Edited by StopTheNonsense, 19 May 2011 - 01:31 PM.

[Replicant]

LOL - I'm not even gonna waste my time with a response because I've said what I wanted and you'll respond with "YOU CAN'T QUESTION ANYTHING! YOU'RE A PEASANT THAT HAS NO OPINION!".
You live in your fairytale land, I'll stay in the real world.

Edited by Replicant, 19 May 2011 - 02:01 PM.

[La fata illa Ali]

StopTheNonsense, on 19 May 2011 - 01:26 PM, said:

No, again, you are wrong.. You have no right to question where or how the money is spent because it was never your money to begin with. It's hard, I know, but you and Ammar have to get your head around the fact this money, once accrued and it was time to pay it, automatically departed the sphere of your assets because it belonged to God all along.

Now, even compared to the lowest ranking representative of the Marja (if there are ranks), S ammar is less qualified in every way (except maybe taqwa which is impossible to quantify and judge) and cannot possibly be in a better position to prioritize unless Marjas see him as a worthy representative and appoint him in a position where he can make that decision. Maybe then he'll stop complaining.

Now, unless you respond to my points clearly (for your convenience I've reorganized my arguments in point form), stop wasting my time.

Br. Haidar: read my earlier post to know what I meant. I'll clarify further if you wish.

brother, u have three posts. U joined SC just to refute this and speak ill of Syed Ammar???

AJEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEB?????

[Abu Izrael]

^^LOL.
To Stopthenonsense, come on man, we are putting our own marja3s in charge of Allah's money, shouldn't we know what they are doing with it? Sayed Ammar's position has little to do with it, there's nothing saying that one should be a wakil to know what's going on with the khums money. Whether you like it or not the fact is that marjas don't always know what their wakils under them are doing. Some wakils have been known to take money for themselves and what not, how do we simply ignore this?

[Haydar Husayn]

StopTheNonsense, on 19 May 2011 - 01:26 PM, said:

Br. Haidar: read my earlier post to know what I meant. I'll clarify further if you wish.

Yes, please expand more. I don't know what ijtihad or maraja have to do with marriage contracts.

[StopTheNonsense]

Brother Haidar,

It's obvious that the Ahkam that we now know were not derived by you and I, but were the product of the research and knowledge of scholars and jurists of Islam in the seminaries of Najaf, Qom, etc. So how you pray, how to perform Wudu, how to perform Hajj, and every other act of worship or legal contract is derived by directly following a learned scholar of classical Islamic sciences without question or doubt, once their credibility is established through peer review process (i.e. not by us making that determination). The same applies to marriage contracts, i.e. the very validity of a marriage contract is based entirely on the instructions of the jurists that we follow. Without their instructions being followed to the letter, the marriage of Sayed Ammar's parents and, consequently, the legitimacy of his birth would be questionable to say the least. Therefore, if he questions the credibility of the scholars or (as he has done) their judgment or reliability (by means of demanding "more transparency" or "an auditing mechanism" - implying that they are not to be fully trusted with "our" khums money!!!) is to say that their rulings (e.g. the validity of their opinion, including but not limited to marriage contracts) is questionable. It follows from that that he is making the legitimacy of his birth from a valid marriage contract suspect!  

To question the piety of the marja (as in asking for more "transparency") is to question everything that a marja stands for. So the legitimacy of his brith which was the product of these very same "dodgy" marjas or their reps (either a marja performed the marriage contract or one of the reps, or one acting upon the instructions of the marja) is the least of Ammar's problems, because as I clearly explained earlier, what he is effectively doing is undermining the whole system of marjeyat by making baseless, sweeping accusations just to get a few nods of approval from a few rich guys who would be pleased to find yet another excuse not to pay their Khums.. Nice try Ammar!

My advice to him is fear Allah and the destructive consequences of your words (which include the fact that young men and women will view the religious leadership as suspicion, to say the least)

Now, before some Bazzoon parrots his rhetoric about me living in fantacy world while he's avoiding the crux of the matter and the points i've raised, he needs to be educated on the difference between unsubstantiated, though possible, mismanagement vs. taking this matter to the pulpit of the prophet to undermine the entire system and act like the 'hero who is to reform a corrupt system'!!!. Get a life.

Furthermore, when Bazzoon says "we are putting our own marja3s in charge of Allah's money" allow me to once again remind you of a simple yet profound fact about Khums: IT IS NOT, AND NEVER WAS YOUR MONEY, AND IT WAS NEVER YOU WHO "PUT THE MARJA IN CHARGE" OF IT. The Imams did and you are merely obligated to deposit Allah's money into someone's hands who is more qualified than all of us in every conceivable way. You signed that document when you chose him as your Marja.

[StopTheNonsense]

It would be nice to see some responses on the points that I raised.. Ammar aims (unsuccessfully) to undermine the religious establishment and the Marjeya system, and he must be held to account on that.. I'm sure, having multiple accounts on Shiachat he's already read these posts and must respond or retract his comments and remove the Youtube videos.

Shame on you for causing such fitna (though it may be just a storm in a teacup)!

[yahossein]

JUST to wade into the debate and make a very simple point to you all.

Personally i like Sayed Ammar's lectures. They are informative and interesting and most of our bros and sisters know that.

HOWEVER, with regards to Khums, i kind of agree with StopTheNonsense. It is NOT our takleef to INVESTIGATE. We are not, by rules of Shari'a to my understanding, required to investigate what happens to the Khums money or how it is used. Its simple. We follow a marjas religious rulings. He collects Khums. Thats IT, the important point is we as Shia have carried out our obligation and duty.

Now, whether or not, some individuals along this network of authority use this Khums in an unlawful matter, it becomes their sin, and they will have to answer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. There is so much corruption present on this earth now that it is now beyond control. It is impossible to make sure that any money that you give to any marja will be spend down to every cent or penny, lawfully by all. There is just too much going on, and too many individuals. You are not required to investigate even if you suspect something is najis, so in this case i believe you are not required to investigate simply on basis of suspicion or hearsay that Khums money has been used unlawfully. If you KNOW then it is a different matter, but that requires PROOF and not what other people say.

Nevertheless i will ask Ayatollah Sistani's office about the Shari' duty to investigate Khums.

[When will you be back?]

yahossein, on 27 May 2011 - 05:00 AM, said:

HOWEVER, with regards to Khums, i kind of agree with StopTheNonsense. It is NOT our takleef to INVESTIGATE. We are not, by rules of Shari'a to my understanding, required to investigate what happens to the Khums money or how it is used. Its simple. We follow a marjas religious rulings. He collects Khums. Thats IT, the important point is we as Shia have carried out our obligation and duty.

Now, whether or not, some individuals along this network of authority use this Khums in an unlawful matter, it becomes their sin, and they will have to answer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. There is so much corruption present on this earth now that it is now beyond control. It is impossible to make sure that any money that you give to any marja will be spend down to every cent or penny, lawfully by all. There is just too much going on, and too many individuals. You are not required to investigate even if you suspect something is najis, so in this case i believe you are not required to investigate simply on basis of suspicion or hearsay that Khums money has been used unlawfully. If you KNOW then it is a different matter, but that requires PROOF and not what other people say.

To the point! Thanks. I agree with you.

Just to add that although Syed Ammar is quick to criticise the lack of translation, there is no doubt that our khums money has been used other amazing ways, propagating the schools of Ahlulbayt, Hawza, building schools, etc... So loads of good work is being done, despite perhaps a lack of English translated books.

And also, if we were to ask for an account of our khums money, I'm sure we would get it from the Marj'a office.
But they probably have prefered to keep this non-public because
1) It's the not the responsibility of the kums giver to know where it is spent once he has given it to the Marj'a
2) If the person does know where it's going, and he's not satisfied that it went to the right palce, then he has to give it again to the right place! So double khums! I'm sure people don't want that!

[Haji 2003]

I pay Khums.

I find UK based institutions whose work I am familiar with and whose management I know and who have ijaza to collect khums. I give them the money. One organisation that I have not supported so far, but intend to do so in the near future is this one.

www.ladyfatemahtrust.org

[Haydar Husayn]

StopTheNonsense, on 21 May 2011 - 03:18 AM, said:

Brother Haidar,

It's obvious that the Ahkam that we now know were not derived by you and I, but were the product of the research and knowledge of scholars and jurists of Islam in the seminaries of Najaf, Qom, etc. So how you pray, how to perform Wudu, how to perform Hajj, and every other act of worship or legal contract is derived by directly following a learned scholar of classical Islamic sciences without question or doubt, once their credibility is established through peer review process (i.e. not by us making that determination). The same applies to marriage contracts, i.e. the very validity of a marriage contract is based entirely on the instructions of the jurists that we follow.

So the hadith we have on this subject are so hopelessly unclear and contradictory, even on subjects such as wudu, that we need a scholar to decifer the proper laws for us? What if someone follows what a particular marja says on prayer, and all the other acts of worship, but doesn't make taqlid to him as such, does that make his actions invalid?

Quote

Without their instructions being followed to the letter, the marriage of Sayed Ammar's parents and, consequently, the legitimacy of his birth would be questionable to say the least. Therefore, if he questions the credibility of the scholars or (as he has done) their judgment or reliability (by means of demanding "more transparency" or "an auditing mechanism" - implying that they are not to be fully trusted with "our" khums money!!!) is to say that their rulings (e.g. the validity of their opinion, including but not limited to marriage contracts) is questionable. It follows from that that he is making the legitimacy of his birth from a valid marriage contract suspect!  

Am I to understand that everyone who is born of parents who don't follow a marja is of illegitimate birth?

Quote

To question the piety of the marja (as in asking for more "transparency") is to question everything that a marja stands for. So the legitimacy of his brith which was the product of these very same "dodgy" marjas or their reps (either a marja performed the marriage contract or one of the reps, or one acting upon the instructions of the marja) is the least of Ammar's problems, because as I clearly explained earlier, what he is effectively doing is undermining the whole system of marjeyat by making baseless, sweeping accusations just to get a few nods of approval from a few rich guys who would be pleased to find yet another excuse not to pay their Khums.. Nice try Ammar!

A man and a woman can perform a marriage contract by themselves, with no witnesses and nobody acting upon the instructions of a marja.

[inshaAllah]

Salams


Some interesting concerns raised by Syed Ammar.....

But before we point fingers at the current marja system (quite often criticised for the way it receives and spends Khums), I would like to ask ourselves whether we (as individuals or organisations) have actually sent formal/written requests for transparency and reforms as proposed by Syed Ammar? If so, what questions were asked? What sort of response have we received and from which office? Do we have credible evidence outlining where/how khums funds are currently being spent? And if we havn't forwarded our concerns (yet) to the related offices of the institution, is it appropriate to criticise them on the basis of speculation? I personally don't see it as being fair to raise doubts on their credibility with a little information.

I think that if we do a bit of homework such as finding the right department/offices/people dealing with such queries and if we draft our questions/concerns in an appropriate tone, we'll be able to actively engage with the marji institution and receive answers to our questions re khums and other issues. And I speak from experience. Several years ago, some members on SC used to criticise the marji system bcz they felt that it only focussed on issuing 'dictations' i-e rulings. But when i personally made an effort of finding the right people/offices and started sending the right questions with the right tone, I started receiving prompt replies regarding history, ideology and principals of Islam.

Fi-Amanillah

[StopTheNonsense]

Haider Husayn, on 27 May 2011 - 07:18 AM, said:

So the hadith we have on this subject are so hopelessly unclear and contradictory, even on subjects such as wudu, that we need a scholar to decifer the proper laws for us? What if someone follows what a particular marja says on prayer, and all the other acts of worship, but doesn't make taqlid to him as such, does that make his actions invalid?

Hopelessly unclear and contradictory is one theory, or that you and I lack the basic requirements to understand them (starting with the intricacies of the Arabic language). I think the second argument is more plausible. Without knowing what it takes to produce a ruling I think you'd agree that it's not your daily cup of tea! It takes much research and learning, just like (and more so than) any other highly specialized field of study. Yes we do need a scholar as we need a doctor to treat us, instead of self-medicating!  

Haider Husayn, on 27 May 2011 - 07:18 AM, said:

Am I to understand that everyone who is born of parents who don't follow a marja is of illegitimate birth?

If the fact that they did not do taqleed means the parents did not perform their Nikah properly, then the child becomes 'suspect'.

Haider Husayn, on 27 May 2011 - 07:18 AM, said:

A man and a woman can perform a marriage contract by themselves, with no witnesses and nobody acting upon the instructions of a marja.

Nobody said anything about witnesses, but the method by which the contract is performed has to be in line with the instructions of a mujtahid. If you don't know this, then you need a refresher course on Taqleed,Ijtihad and Islamic laws and jurisprudence 101.

[Sadiq M...]

StopTheNonsense, on 30 May 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

If the fact that they did not do taqleed means the parents did not perform their Nikah properly, then the child becomes 'suspect'.
Nobody said anything about witnesses, but the method by which the contract is performed has to be in line with the instructions of a mujtahid. If you don't know this, then you need a refresher course on Taqleed,Ijtihad and Islamic laws and jurisprudence 101.

So does that make every non-Shia "suspect" then?

I'm failing to understand your logic on this one, and I don't think I'm the only one...

[Maula Dha Mallang]

Haji 2003, on 27 May 2011 - 06:35 AM, said:

I pay Khums.

I find UK based institutions whose work I am familiar with and whose management I know and who have ijaza to collect khums. I give them the money. One organisation that I have not supported so far, but intend to do so in the near future is this one.

www.ladyfatemahtrust.org

I can also vouch for this organisation, if i had an extra set of arms i'd give them four thumbs up. totally trustworthy and reliable and they do a lot of excellent work,.

[Replicant]

StopTheNonsense, on 30 May 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

If the fact that they did not do taqleed means the parents did not perform their Nikah properly, then the child becomes 'suspect'.

That is ludicrous.