138 replies to this topic

[Dar'ul_Islam]

Islamic Salvation, on 20 November 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

And also Allamah Mamaqani, Shaykh ash-Shahroudi, Allamah Majlisi and Wahid al-Bihbihani have him as Hasan due to there being Tarrahum of Imam as-Sadiq on him, and also him being in the chains of Mashyakha of as-Saduq in al-Faqih.

So if you belive in this principles for making Tawthiq and Tahsin then the Hadith is Mu'tabar without doubt.

The tarahhum of the Imam [as] is good, unless they're giving it for specific reasons (like a person just did ziyarat). But why do they argue regarding someone being in the Mashaykha of Saduq raising the status of a narrator?

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

[Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz]

Islamic Salvation, on 20 November 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Indeed the chain to Abdil-Rahim al-Qasir is all good, and the fact that Abdil-Rahim corresponds to as-Sadiq (using Abdil Malik bin A'yan as middle man) has Shahid from what al-Kulayni records in al-Kafi a Hadith with a similar chain as follows:

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al-Kulayni> Ali bin Ibrahim > Abbas bin Ma'ruf > Ibn Abi Najran > Hammad bin Uthman > Abdil-Rahman bin Atik al-Qasir


But this Abdil-Rahim has no Tawthiq in the books of Rijal.

Except that Sayyid al-Khui had done Tawthiq of him due to him being a narrator in Tafsir al-Qummi.

And also Allamah Mamaqani, Shaykh ash-Shahroudi, Allamah Majlisi and Wahid al-Bihbihani have him as Hasan due to there being Tarrahum of Imam as-Sadiq on him, and also him being in the chains of Mashyakha of as-Saduq in al-Faqih.

So if you belive in this principles for making Tawthiq and Tahsin then the Hadith is Mu'tabar without doubt.

I agree with those scholars that you have mentioned.

[Islamic Salvation]

^

Well there are also the majority strict Rijalis who disagree Akhi,

1. Firstly, the Tarrahum is narrated by himself in the following two Ahadith from al-Kafi, the second of which I translate due to its beauty [it seems that this was one letter which was cut up and put in different Bab's by al-Kulayni according to the topic, since as-Saduq in at-Tawhid narrates the letter as a whole]

Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã¡ Úä ÇáÚÈÇÓ Èä ãÚÑæÝ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí äÌÑÇä¡ Úä ÍãÇÏ ÇÈä ÚËãÇä¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇáÑÍíã Èä ÚÊíß ÇáÞÕíÑ ÞÇá: ßÊÈÊ Úáì íÏí ÚÈÏÇáãáß Èä ÃÚíä Åáì ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: Ãä ÞæãÇ ÈÇáÚÑÇÞ íÕÝæä Çááå ÈÇáÕæÑÉ æÈÇáÊÎØíØ ÝÅä ÑÃíÊ - ÌÚáäí Çááå ÝÏÇß - Ãä ÊßÊÈ Åáí ÈÇáãÐåÈ ÇáÕÍíÍ ãä ÇáÊæÍíÏ¿ ÝßÊÈ Åáí: ÓÃáÊ ÑÍãß Çááå Úä ÇáÊæÍíÏ æãÇ ÐåÈ Åáíå ãä ÞÈáß ÝÊÚÇáì Çááå ÇáÐí áíÓ ßãËáå ÔÆ æåæ ÇáÓãíÚ ÇáÈÕíÑ¡ ÊÚÇáì ÚãÇ íÕÝå ÇáæÇÕÝæä ÇáãÔÈåæä Çááå ÈÎáÞå ÇáãÝÊÑæä Úáì Çááå¡ ÝÇÚáã ÑÍãß Çááå Ãä ÇáãÐåÈ ÇáÕÍíÍ Ýí ÇáÊæÍíÏ ãÇ äÒá Èå ÇáÞÑÂä ãä ÕÝÇÊ Çááå ÚÒæÌá ÝÇäÝ Úä Çááå ÊÚÇáì ÇáÈØáÇä æÇáÊÔÈíå ÝáÇ äÝí æáÇ ÊÔÈíå åæ Çááå ÇáËÇÈÊ ÇáãæÌæÏ ÊÚÇáì Çááå ÚãÇ íÕÝå ÇáæÇÕÝæä æáÇ ÊÚÏæÇ ÇáÞÑÂä ÝÊÖáæÇ ÈÚÏ ÇáÈíÇä

Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã Úä ÇáÚÈÇÓ Èä ãÚÑæÝ Úä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãä Èä ÃÈí äÌÑÇä Úä ÍãÇÏ Èä ÚËãÇä Úä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍíã ÇáÞÕíÑ ÞÇá ßÊÈÊ ãÚ ÚÈÏ Çáãáß Èä ÃÚíä Åáì ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå Ú ÃÓÃáå Úä ÇáÅíãÇä ãÇ åæ ÝßÊÈ Åáí ãÚ ÚÈÏ Çáãáß Èä ÃÚíä ÓÃáÊ ÑÍãß Çááå Úä ÇáÅíãÇä æ ÇáÅíãÇä åæ ÇáÅÞÑÇÑ ÈÇááÓÇä æ ÚÞÏ Ýí ÇáÞáÈ æ Úãá ÈÇáÃÑßÇä æ ÇáÅíãÇä ÈÚÖå ãä ÈÚÖ æ åæ ÏÇÑ æ ßÐáß ÇáÅÓáÇã ÏÇÑ æ ÇáßÝÑ ÏÇÑ ÝÞÏ íßæä ÇáÚÈÏ ãÓáãÇ ÞÈá Ãä íßæä ãÄãäÇ æ áÇ íßæä ãÄãäÇ ÍÊì íßæä ãÓáãÇ ÝÇáÅÓáÇã ÞÈá ÇáÅíãÇä æ åæ íÔÇÑß ÇáÅíãÇä ÝÅÐÇ ÃÊì ÇáÚÈÏ ßÈíÑÉ ãä ßÈÇÆÑ ÇáãÚÇÕí Ãæ ÕÛíÑÉ ãä ÕÛÇÆÑ ÇáãÚÇÕí ÇáÊí äåì Çááå ÚÒ æ Ìá ÚäåÇ ßÇä ÎÇÑÌÇ ãä ÇáÅíãÇä ÓÇÞØÇ Úäå ÇÓã ÇáÅíãÇä æ ËÇÈÊÇ Úáíå ÇÓã ÇáÅÓáÇã ÝÅä ÊÇÈ æ ÇÓÊÛÝÑ ÚÇÏ Åáì ÏÇÑ ÇáÅíãÇä æ áÇ íÎÑÌå Åáì ÇáßÝÑ ÅáÇ ÇáÌÍæÏ æ ÇáÇÓÊÍáÇá Ãä íÞæá ááÍáÇá åÐÇ ÍÑÇã æ ááÍÑÇã åÐÇ ÍáÇá æ ÏÇä ÈÐáß ÝÚäÏåÇ íßæä ÎÇÑÌÇ ãä ÇáÅÓáÇã æ ÇáÅíãÇä ÏÇÎáÇ Ýí ÇáßÝÑ æ ßÇä ÈãäÒáÉ ãä ÏÎá ÇáÍÑã Ëã ÏÎá ÇáßÚÈÉ æ ÃÍÏË Ýí ÇáßÚÈÉ ÍÏËÇ ÝÃÎÑÌ Úä ÇáßÚÈÉ æ Úä ÇáÍÑã ÝÖÑÈÊ ÚäÞå æ ÕÇÑ Åáì ÇáäÇÑ

Ali bin Ibrahim from al-Abbas bin Ma'ruf from Abdil-Rahman bin Abi Najran from Hammad bin Uthman from Abdil-Rahim al-Qasir who said:
I wrote to Aba Abdillah via Abdil-Malik bin A'yan, asking Him about Iman, what it was? so He wrote back to me via Abdil-Malik bin A'yan (the following): you asked may Allah have mercy on you about Iman, (know that) Iman is declaration by the tongue, and belief in the heart, and action by the limbs, and some aspects of Iman are related to other aspects of it, and it (Iman) is a Dar (house), as is Islam a Dar (house), and Kufr is also a Dar (house), a slave may be a Muslim before he becomes a Mu'min, and he does not become a Mu'min before he has become a Muslim, so Islam is before Iman, and it (Islam) is a condition for Iman, so when a slave performs a great sin from the greater sins or a small sin from the smaller sins which Allah ÚÒ æ Ìá has prohibited - he becomes outisde (banished) from Iman, and the label of Iman is dropped for him, but the label of Islam is still firm for him, so if he repents and seeks forgiveness he returns to the Dar (house) of Iman, and nothing takes someone to the Dar of Kufr (after being in the Dar of Iman) except Juhd (fight against the truth) and Istihlal: calling what is Halal - Haram and what is Haram -Halal, and building upon that as his Diin, so when he does this he comes out of Islam and Iman and enters into Kufr, and he becomes like the one who enters the Haram (sacred precinct) (metaphor for Islam) and then the Ka'aba (metaphor for Iman), then he violates its sanctity (by performing an indecent act), so he will be removed from the Ka'aba and the Haram, and his neck cut so he enters the fire.


2. As for being in the Mashyakha, and as-Saduq having a chain to him, then this is also not very convincing, as there are clear Dhaif individuals to whom as-Saduq has a chain to in his Mashyakha.

3. Also, it is said that al-Khui changed his opinion about a narrator from Tafsir al-Qummi [with the chain ending to a Ma'sum] as being Thiqah.

4. Some also point out that the giants of the Madhab like Hammad b. Uthman and Ibn Abi Umayr narrate for him, but again they also narrate from clear Dhaif individuals.

--> Having said all this, the Matn seems Mustaqim, so I see no problem of you accepting the Hadith [as the other scholars who have accepted them].

Edited by Islamic Salvation, 20 November 2012 - 05:25 AM.

[Dar'ul_Islam]

I don't find being in Saduq's mashaykha very convincing. But being narrated from by the giants of our madhhab is something I think carries some weight. Nor do I believe some examples that contradict (meaning they have been found to narrate from weak people) mean the entire idea is untrue and useless. I share in the idea that people were not just narrating everything from anyone just to pass the information, rather they put some effort into not narrating from untrustworthy people and false hadith. I mean it's reasonable as they (the early scholars) clearly noted that certain rijal tend to narrate from dhu`afaa' and rely on maraseel (al-Barqi and his father, Muhammad al-Ash`ari, etc).

But this is only my current view, Allahu a`lam.

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

[Islamic Salvation]

Dar, on 20 November 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

I don't find being in Saduq's mashaykha very convincing. But being narrated from by the giants of our madhhab is something I think carries some weight. Nor do I believe some examples that contradict (meaning they have been found to narrate from weak people) mean the entire idea is untrue and useless. I share in the idea that people were not just narrating everything from anyone just to pass the information, rather they put some effort into not narrating from untrustworthy people and false hadith. I mean it's reasonable as they (the early scholars) clearly noted that certain rijal tend to narrate from dhu`afaa' and rely on maraseel (al-Barqi and his father, Muhammad al-Ash`ari, etc).

But this is only my current view, Allahu a`lam.

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

Another point to consider about using 'the narration of the giants of the Madhab from someone' as a form of strengthening a narrator is as follows:

The argument against considering this as holding weight is the point made that: "the giant (take Ibn Abi Umayr) also narrates from clearly weak individuals".

The counter argument I have seen is as follows: "but the fact that the one whom he narrates from is weak is the opinion of other scholars who came after him, what if the giant (Ibn Abi Umayr) considered him Thiqah and so narrated from him?, we can then follow his opinion and leave those weakening him".

Looking at the above, there are some who say that this can be a good Imara (foundation) for Tawthiq or Tahsin if we can argue succesfully the following:

1. The giants did care about whom they took from.
2. They took from X a significant number of narrations (since if they have only taken one or very few narrations from X - it can be taken to mean that they left him or did not really know him).
3. There is no Ta'arudh (conflict) in later Rijali scholars considering X Dhaif (since if there is Ta'arudh we drop the narrator as a matter of Ihtiyat or Taqdim al-Jarh).

Edited by Islamic Salvation, 21 November 2012 - 01:01 AM.

[Nader Zaveri]

Ibn Abi `Umayr also narrates from him via a waasiTah, not directly, as can be seen in the narration in al-Barqi's al-Mahaasin.

The principle of the "giants of the madhhab narrating from them" is a very weak argument, because only way to fully believe this is that you have a statement from Ibn Abi `Umayr himself saying he only narrates from the thiqaat, or he doesn't narrate from the du`afaa'. Not a statement from someone who died 200+ years after Ibn Abi `Umayr, and he eyeballed his narrations and said "yeah he only narrates from the thiqaat". The only reason people take that he only narrates from the thiqaat is because of al-Toosi's erroneous statement in al-`Uddah. Anyone who does a little bit of in depth research can see the multiple weak narrators that Ibn Abi `Umayr narrates from.

Edited by Nader Zaveri, 21 November 2012 - 02:54 AM.

[Dar'ul_Islam]

Islamic Salvation, on 21 November 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

Another point to consider about using 'the narration of the giants of the Madhab from someone' as a form of strengthening a narrator is as follows:

The argument against considering this as holding weight is the point made that: "the giant (take Ibn Abi Umayr) also narrates from clearly weak individuals".

The,dhu`afaa they narrate from are few and not really on a really consistent basis, as far as I know. Many times these dua`afa can be argued as not really weak (as in liars, dabt is a separate issue).

My litmus test is that if your usool of rijal and diraya - keeping very consistent with - does not give tawtheeq to Ibrahim b. Hashim and Ahmad b. Muhammad b. al-Waleed or other people our Salaf clearly relied upon...then you are being too rigid and there's a problem, as the limits and faults of this uncertain system have been reached.

Çááå ÃÚáã
Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Salamalaikum brother IS

Keep the ahadees coming bro. Shiachat has become dry again

[InfiniteAscension]

Interesting thread brother Islamic Salvation, thank you.

I wanted to recommend the latest duroos by Sayed Kamal al Haidary entitled ta'aruth al adilah, examining the different approaches to dealing with conflicting and ahad narrations and why the currently popular Rijali approach has many drawbacks.

[Islamic Salvation]

InfiniteAscension, on 10 December 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

Interesting thread brother Islamic Salvation, thank you.

I wanted to recommend the latest duroos by Sayed Kamal al Haidary entitled ta'aruth al adilah, examining the different approaches to dealing with conflicting and ahad narrations and why the currently popular Rijali approach has many drawbacks.

W. Salaam

Yes, I have some of the audio recordings, interesting indeed.

باب الرجل يؤم النساء والمرأة تؤم النساء

Chapter on a man leading the women and a woman leading the women (in prayer) (1 Mu’tabar out of 3)

جماعة، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة، عن ابن سنان، عن سليمان بن خالد قال: سألت أبا عبدالله (عليه السلام) عن المرأة تؤم النساء، فقال: إذا كن جميعا أمتهن في النافلة فأما المكتوبة فلا ولا تقدمهن ولكن تقوم وسطا منهن

1. (2) A large number of our companions from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Husayn bin Said from Fadhala (bin Ayub) from Ibn Sinan from Sulayman bin Khalid who said: I asked Aba Abdillah عليه السلام about a woman leading the other women in prayer, so He said: If they are all women – she may lead them in the Nafila and as for the Maktuba (daily obligatory) then no, and she does not stand in front of them but rather in the middle of their midst. (Sahih)


Ibn Sinan is the Thiqah - Abdallah, and not the Dhaif - Muhammad.

The import of the Hadith is that a woman many not lead other women in the Maktuba [daily obligatory prayers], but she may lead them in the Nafila [recommended prayers].

This has caused a debate among the scholars, since there is no Jama'ah (congregation) in Nafila prayers, and the closest in explaining its meaning has been said by some who say that its meaning could be the few Mustahhab prayers that are prayed in Jama'ah like Istisqa and the Idayn, but this is itself far fetched.

And know that the Mashhur opinion is the permissibility of the woman leading other women in the Maktuba, in apparent contradiction with this Hadith.

Edited by Islamic Salvation, 20 December 2012 - 11:43 AM.

[pyaro]

Islamic Salvation, on 20 December 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

W. Salaam

Yes, I have some of the audio recordings, interesting indeed.

باب الرجل يؤم النساء والمرأة تؤم النساء

Chapter on a man leading the women and a woman leading the women (in prayer) (1 Mu’tabar out of 3)

جماعة، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة، عن ابن سنان، عن سليمان بن خالد قال: سألت أبا عبدالله (عليه السلام) عن المرأة تؤم النساء، فقال: إذا كن جميعا أمتهن في النافلة فأما المكتوبة فلا ولا تقدمهن ولكن تقوم وسطا منهن

1. (2) A large number of our companions from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Husayn bin Said from Fadhala (bin Ayub) from Ibn Sinan from Sulayman bin Khalid who said: I asked Aba Abdillah عليه السلام about a woman leading the other women in prayer, so He said: If they are all women – she may lead them in the Nafila and as for the Maktuba (daily obligatory) then no, and she does not stand in front of them but rather in the middle of their midst. (Sahih)


Ibn Sinan is the Thiqah - Abdallah, and not the Dhaif - Muhammad.

The import of the Hadith is that a woman many not lead other women in the Maktuba [daily obligatory prayers], but she may lead them in the Nafila [recommended prayers].

This has caused a debate among the scholars, since there is no Jama'ah (congregation) in Nafila prayers, and the closest in explaining its meaning has been said by some who say that its meaning could be the few Mustahhab prayers that are prayed in Jama'ah like Istisqa and the Idayn, but this is itself far fetched.

And know that the Mashhur opinion is the permissibility of the woman leading other women in the Maktuba, in apparent contradiction with this Hadith.

Salaam ALaykum,
Ahsant brother.

How do you then reconcile the mashur opinion of women being able to to lead other women in Jamaat with these narrations that say otherwise?

[Islamic Salvation]

Quote

How do you then reconcile the mashur opinion of women being able to to lead other women in Jamaat with these narrations that say otherwise?

That was a single Mu'tabar Ahad narration, thus, some Mujtahidin have preferred Ijma'a of earlier scholars and other Adillah to allow a woman to lead other women in prayer.

باب السهو في الركوع

Chapter on the forgetfulness in Rukuu (3 Mu'tabar out of 3)

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة بن أيوب، عن الحسين بن عثمان، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير قال: سألت أبا عبدالله (عليه السلام) عن الرجل يشك وهو قائم لا يدري ركع أم لم يركع، قال: يركع ويسجد

1. Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from al-Husayn bin Said from Fadhala bin Ayub from al-Husayn bin Uthman from Ibn Muskan from Abi Basir who said: I asked Aba Abdillah عليه السلام about a man who doubts while he is standing (in prayer) - he does not know whether he has made Rukuu or not (i.e. this is his doubt), He said: he should make Rukuu and go on to Sajda (i.e. and that is it). (Sahih)

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، ومحمد بن إسماعيل، عن الفضل بن شاذان جميعا، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن رفاعة، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) قال: سألته عن رجل نسي أن يركع حتى يسجد ويقوم قال: يستقبل

2. Ali bin Ibrahim from his father AND Muhammad bin Ismail from al-Fadhl bin Shadhan all together from Ibn Abi Umayr from Rifa'ah from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام, he (Rifa'ah) said: I asked him about a man who forgets to make Rukuu, until he has gone into Sajda and stands up again (i.e. for a new Rak'ah without making Rukuu in the previous one), He said: he is to repeat (the prayer). (Hasan like Sahih)

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عمر بن اذينة، عن زرارة، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) قال: إذا استيقن أنه قد زاد في الصلاة المكتوبة ركعة لم يعتد بها واستقبل الصلاة إستقبالا إذا كان قد استيقن يقينا

3. Ali bin Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi Umayr from Umar bin Udhayna from Zurara from Abi Ja'far عليه السلام who said: if one posesses certainity that he has added in his obligatory Salat a Rukuu - that prayer is not to be counted (i.e. it is Batil), and he/she begins the prayer afresh, this is if one is fully certain. (Hasan)


NOTES:

A. The first Hadith shows that if one is in Qiyam (standing in prayer), and he doubts whether he has made Rukuu (so he can go to Sajda) or whether he has not made Rukuu (so that he should make Rukuu first then go to Sajda) - the Imam says - make Rukuu and go to Sajda.

B. The second Hadith shows that If a person has forgotten to make Rukuu, and he goes to Sajda without making a Rukuu, then he stands up after the Sajda and then remembers (that he had forgotten his Rukuu) he is to repeat the prayer. This means that Rukuu is a Rukn in prayer.

C. The third Hadith shows that if one achieves certainity that he had increased in the number of Rukuu (more than what is required), then he is to repeat the prayer. This means that Rukuu is a Rukn in prayer.

Edited by Islamic Salvation, 28 December 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz]

Nader Zaveri, on 21 November 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Ibn Abi `Umayr also narrates from him via a waasiTah, not directly, as can be seen in the narration in al-Barqi's al-Mahaasin.

The principle of the "giants of the madhhab narrating from them" is a very weak argument, because only way to fully believe this is that you have a statement from Ibn Abi `Umayr himself saying he only narrates from the thiqaat, or he doesn't narrate from the du`afaa'. Not a statement from someone who died 200+ years after Ibn Abi `Umayr, and he eyeballed his narrations and said "yeah he only narrates from the thiqaat". The only reason people take that he only narrates from the thiqaat is because of al-Toosi's erroneous statement in al-`Uddah. Anyone who does a little bit of in depth research can see the multiple weak narrators that Ibn Abi `Umayr narrates from.

I don't see how you can make that argument to be honest.

I doubt that a big scholar,who is versed in hadith especially,would take hadith from people he considered weak.

Other scholars may ,and do consider some people that the giant scholars narrate from as weak,but to assume that they themselves felt the same is non-sense.

The last thing a giant scholar will do is take a narration from someone he knows is weak.

[Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz]

pyaro, on 20 December 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Salaam ALaykum,
Ahsant brother.

How do you then reconcile the mashur opinion of women being able to to lead other women in Jamaat with these narrations that say otherwise?

This hadith mentions the permission of women leading other women in nawafil.

wasalam