46 replies to this topic

[mehdi soldier]

(NOTE:
"Easter Gift:"the Christian God:Blood and Human Sacrifice" is written by "mehdi soldier" and sharing and reproducing this material is free and acceptable by me for the sake of Almighty God).

"Easter Gift: “the Christian God: Blood And Human Sacrifice”

It is of great amazement to know that men of knowledge and intellect and particularly professionals who believe in Christianity do celebrate human sacrifice and the shedding of an innocent human being’s blood to mark the so called redemption of humanity. If the god of Christianity can carry out human sacrifice then what is the difference between Christianity and tradition African religions which support human sacrifice? In our world of today, upon hearing the term “human sacrifice”, everyone freaks out and considers it barbaric. On the other hand, Christians up to this day annually commemorates human sacrifice and in fact have made it the basic and most fundamental tenet of their faith that without it there would be no Christianity.

1 Corinthians 15
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


In Christianity “human sacrifice” is God’s “grace” while the same people would continue to condemn traditional religions if they employ human sacrifice. Why the double standard since “human sacrifice” is “human sacrifice”. Is it not time for Christians with intellect and logic to identify the barbarity involved in celebrating Easter and all that connects to the alleged killing of Jesus (human sacrifice)? Should governments around the world not stop the commemoration of such barbaric practice commemorating what is believed to be a father killing his own son and offering him as a sacrifice? And come to think of it, can God, the universal Supreme Being and the almighty who possesses all and everything, sacrifice anything? Can God sacrifice anything? Do you really know the meaning of “sacrifice”? To sacrifice means to give up or abandon something. Does your God who owns everything and made everything and can also destroy everything be in the position of humans to sacrifice anything? Is it true that God can give up something and loses it? It’s not impossible and “sacrifice” is not compatible with the concept and belief of an Almighty God who is universal, the beginner of everything and the bringer to an end of everything.


In the same bible that Christians hold as holy we find verses denouncing human sacrifice and also denouncing parents sacrificing their children. But here we have Christians hypocritically accepting and celebrating their “heavenly father” killing his “son” to neutralize sin a mysterious sin that they themselves did not commit but one attributed to Adam in the name of “original sin”. The same bible does not inform us that sin cannot be passed through from one person to another nor can it be inherited:

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinned, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

IF GOD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT DENOUNCES HUMAN SACRIFICE AND HE ALSO DENOUNCES PARENTS WHO SACRIFICE THEIR CHILDREN AND HE ABORTED ABRAHAM’S SLAUGHTERING OF HIS SON (SINCE IT WAS ONLY MEANT TO BE A TEST),THEN WHY DO CHRISTIANS AND THEIR NEW TESTAMENT PRESCRIBE TO GOD WHAT HE HAS REJECTED?

Deuteronomy 12:31
31Thou shall not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hates, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

From the above God considers sacrificing your children as an abomination, yet Christians ascribe that same abomination to God, sacrificing his own “son”!


Deuteronomy 18:9-12

When you enter the land that GOD, your God, is giving you, don't take on the abominable ways of life of the nations there. Don't you dare sacrifice your son or daughter in the fire. Don't practice divination, sorcery, fortunetelling, witchery, casting spells, holding séances, or channeling with the dead. People who do these things are an abomination to GOD. It's because of just such abominable practices that GOD, your God, is driving these nations out before you.

Now how dare you ascribe an abomination to God? Didn’t God see in the above that sacrificing one’s own child is an abomination?


Leviticus 18:21
"Don't give any of your children to be burned in sacrifice to the god Molech—an act of sheer blasphemy of your God. I am GOD.

When someone sacrifices his own son, God sees it as blasphemy. Then how can you blaspheme by ascribing blasphemy to God Himself what God sees as blasphemy?

WAS JESUS A WILLING “SACRIFICE”?

Let us examine the narration of how sorrowful and freigtened Jesus was and obviously was not ready nor willing to die for your sin:

Matthew 26:36-47
36Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
37And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
43And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.


Compare the sorrow and fear Jesus expressed and the joy or at least readiness of soldiers who are willing to die.dont you dare come up and tell me he (Jesus) was human.i don’t even want to go into the question of whether Jesus was human or god or both.the fact is those willing to die are not gods but men.God does not die;gods die and hence they are false!if you can find men willing to die or at least willing to honor their agreement to sacrifice themselves for the truth,Jesus should no less be as strong as them.we read further:

Luke 22:44
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Fear? Not only that he was sweating and weeping. He was sweating as if they were “great drops of blood”. Why all that? Was it because Jesus was willing to die? Or was it because he was not willing to die? Tell me!

Matthew 27:45-46
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Forsaken? The “son” is complaining to his “dad” that his “dad” had forsaken him and here you are telling me he was “willing” to die!

CAN A “CURSE” REDEEM HUMANITY?

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So the Christian god did not only slay his son,he did not only “sacrifice” his son” and he did not only performed human sacrifice,but he allowed his son to be cursed!a cursed “son of god”?is that the gift that Christianity has to offer humanity?thanks but no thanks!

WHERE DO CURSED PEOPLE TO INTO AND WAS JESUS REALLY “KILLED” OR “CRUCIFIED” AND BECOME “CURSED”?

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

From the above verse, it is either Jesus is lying that he will drive the cursed ones away since he himself has become cursed according to Galatians 3:13 and he too must be driven away or Jesus is saying the truth that he will drive the cursed ones away because Jesus was never killed or cursed!


Deuteronomy 21:23
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shall in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

An accursed messiah, prophet and “son of god”?impossible! He could never have being killed and therefore he never “died” for your sins (thus no human sacrifice” and therefore no resurrection!

With all the crying and weeping of Jesus, Christians hold that Jesus was killed and therefore become “cursed” as a human sacrifice that “died” for their sin”. Is that how a loving God (your so called “heavenly father”) treats his beloved son? Do Christian fathers sacrifice their sons and give them up to save the wicked and those who have committed atrocities? Is it just to punish the innocent in the place of the criminal?

Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

WAS JESUS REALLY KILLED?

The Holy Quran replies and the choice is yours:

“He (Jesus) was neither killed nor crucified”(Holy Quran 4:157-158)

So will you Christians continue to justify human sacrifice when all evidence point and work against it? The choice is indeed yours to make!


Major Yeats-Brown, in his “Life of a Bengal Lancer”, summarises the Christian Doctrine of the Atonement in just a single sentence:

“NO HEATHEN TRIBE HAS CONCEIVED SO GROTESQUE AN IDEA, INVOLVING AS IT DOES THE ASSUMPTION, THAT MAN WAS BORN WITH A HEREDITARY STAIN UPON HIM: AND THAT THIS STAIN (FOR WHICH HE WAS NOT PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE) WAS TO BE ATONED FOR: AND THAT THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS HAD TO SACRIFICE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO NEUTRALISE THIS MYSTERIOUS CURSE.”

for further reading,read Ahmad Deedat's:"cruci-fiction or crucifixion":

http://www.institute...h-ahmed-deedat/

PLEASE YOU CAN ALSO WATCH THE FOLLOWING:

1.) "Easter - A Muslim Viewpoint " - by Ahmed Deedat - 1999 - English:


http://www.shiatv.ne...3ba65467986739c


2.) " Refuting the Original Sin & Crucifixion" -By Hassanain Rajabali " :

Edited by mehdi soldier, 21 April 2011 - 09:55 AM.

[mehdi soldier]

JOHN 8:44
Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[thecontentedself]

  

Ahsent jazakallah brother very useful for my debates. I've recently also joined a catholic forum, couldn't help it!  

[mehdi soldier]

thecontentedself, on 21 April 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:

  

Ahsent jazakallah brother very useful for my debates. I've recently also joined a catholic forum, couldn't help it!  

you're welcome brother!

[Leto]

You don't seem to understand a thing. You call the Christian God "god" and you deny it's the same God as te one of Islam. By doing this you contradict your own Qor'an.

The sacrifce of the infallible Word to the anger of the hollow and corrupt world you don't understand as well. If you can't understand how the sacrifice of an innocent can redeem those who weep for him I marvel how you can even think about celebrating Ashura.

I wonder why so many disrespectful and, I hate to say, rather dumb topics are being spammed in this subforum. Until some days ago I thought the intellectuel level here was pretty high...

[mehdi soldier]

Leto, on 22 April 2011 - 05:21 AM, said:

You don't seem to understand a thing. You call the Christian God "god" and you deny it's the same God as te one of Islam. By doing this you contradict your own Qor'an.

no Sir!

Quote

The sacrifce of the infallible Word to the anger of the hollow and corrupt world you don't understand as well. If you can't understand how the sacrifice of an innocent can redeem those who weep for him I marvel how you can even think about celebrating Ashura.

Ashura is about defending the truth with one's life and everything one possesses.it is about fighting for the truth.its not about dying to wash away people's sin.its not about being a "sacrificial lamb" for the defects and attrocites of others.its about fighting and dying for the right cause.

you refer to Jesus as the "savior of humanity through his blood",we refer to Imam Hussain as the "savior and defender (from destruction) of Islam through matyrdom".was Jesus a "matyr" or was he a "sacrificial lamb" and "ransom"?

Quote

I wonder why so many disrespectful and, I hate to say, rather dumb topics are being spammed in this subforum. Until some days ago I thought the intellectuel level here was pretty high...

hmmm...interesting.

Edited by mehdi soldier, 22 April 2011 - 07:18 AM.

[thecontentedself]

Leto, on 22 April 2011 - 05:21 AM, said:

You don't seem to understand a thing. You call the Christian God "god" and you deny it's the same God as te one of Islam. By doing this you contradict your own Qor'an.

The sacrifce of the infallible Word to the anger of the hollow and corrupt world you don't understand as well. If you can't understand how the sacrifice of an innocent can redeem those who weep for him I marvel how you can even think about celebrating Ashura.

I wonder why so many disrespectful and, I hate to say, rather dumb topics are being spammed in this subforum. Until some days ago I thought the intellectuel level here was pretty high...

My dear who is equal in humanity, I wish it were true and our christian brothers could have intellectual discussions with us.

If you knew anything about our doctrines, you would never think about comparing the sacrifice of the supposed God's only begotten (according to KJ Bible) son for the sins of another of God's begotten (according to KJB) sons, Adam, and all of humanity. How does that compare to the perfect revolutionary and immaculate sons of the Leader of the Monotheists and Believers who sacrificed himself, his companions and family for the sake of Allah (swt) alone, the protection of the true Muhammedan message and the upholding of justice and freedom?

Please elaborate in an intellectual and rational method. Without resorting to scripture.

Going back to the atonement question, I keep asking my catholic friends this question but I have yet to receive an intellectual and rational explanation: If Adam's (Who was a prophet of God by the way!) so called sin has stained all of humanity after him until the atonement of Christ on the cross, what then of all the Prophets of God that came after Adam? How has their sins been atoned? They never accepted the message of Jesus , some even dare say that they never knew of him.

Please elaborate if you can.

[Leto]

As I told in another topic: the fundamental misconception is the idea that God would be forced towards the incarnation. No force within creation can ever force God to do anything, for He is supreme and free within Himself. We believe God wanted the incarnation as a way to deliver humanity from unbelief. God is beyond time and isn't bound to any temporal force. For Him there is no today, no yesterday and no tommorow. The incarnation of the Word is given with creation itself. When God created the world He made it dependant on Him and give the humans a natural longing to Him. incarnation was already given als the ultimate goal of that creation: the full self-revelation of God to His creatures. This self-revelation is the only true salvation.

Asking the question as why the incarnation happened is like answering the question why creation happened. The answer of the question lies within the infinite being of God Himself and within His freedom. He wanted the world because He wanted to be known and worshipped. He wanted the incarnation because He wanted the world to be penetrated by the Divine. Why does God want anything? Can you tell me?

The arguments some try to raise against this doctorine are mostly based on the idea they can restrain God and have power over Him. For them it isn't possible for God to do a thing like this. Incarnation and creation are bound to each other from the very beginning.

Coming to Ashura it wasn't my purpose to say it's the same as the Christian doctorine. It was a reaction to mehdisoldiers apparent distaste of blood and martyrdom in religion (seeing the subtitle of this thread). And please forgive I didn't try very hard to respect all the nuances of the Shia belief. I didn't get the impression the intention of this topic was to respect the nuances in other people's religon.

Oh and one last remark: we don't believe the sacrifice of Christ was a human sacrifice towards God. It was the sacrifice of the infallible Word of God by the hands of evil. The entire idea of some pagan human sacrifice is totally out of place here. In case that wasn't clear already.

[mehdi soldier]

Leto, on 22 April 2011 - 08:17 AM, said:

Coming to Ashura it wasn't my purpose to say it's the same as the Christian doctorine. It was a reaction to mehdisoldiers apparent distaste of blood and martyrdom in religion (seeing the subtitle of this thread). And please forgive I didn't try very hard to respect all the nuances of the Shia belief. I didn't get the impression the intention of this topic was to respect the nuances in other people's religon.

i have a distaste for "human sacrifice" not matyrdom.

Quote

Oh and one last remark: we don't believe the sacrifice of Christ was a human sacrifice towards God. It was the sacrifice of the infallible Word of God by the hands of evil. The entire idea of some pagan human sacrifice is totally out of place here. In case that wasn't clear already.

so it was the "hands of evil" that killed him as a sacrifice so that he can save you from sin?isn't that what you're saying?



CAN A “CURSE” REDEEM HUMANITY?

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Deuteronomy 21:23
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shall in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

CAN "EVIL HANDS" OFFER "REDEMPTION"?

Edited by mehdi soldier, 22 April 2011 - 08:45 AM.

[Leto]

mehdi soldier, on 22 April 2011 - 08:42 AM, said:

i have a distaste for "human sacrifice" not matyrdom.



so it was the "hands of evil" that killed him as a sacrifice so that he can save you from sin?isn't that what you're saying?

Certainly.

[iere]

I believe in the ordinance of the Lord's Supper rather than recognizing or celebrating Easter.  Easter is not a Scriptural holiday.  I do believe, however, that Jesus abandoned the throne of heaven to come to earth and lovingly sacrifice His own life for humanity. Of course, my understanding of Scripture is completely different from your own.

[mehdi soldier]

Leto, on 22 April 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:

Certainly.

so your salvation is the work done by evil hands?

the question continues to pose itself: "was the alleged "crucifixion" of Jesus a "curse" or a "blessing" that can lead to "salvation"?

[Quisant]

Leto, on 22 April 2011 - 08:17 AM, said:

It was the sacrifice of the infallible Word of God by the hands of evil.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7)

So God creates the very hands that are required to kill his infallible Word?

Could God not have dealt with Incarnation, Creation and Sacrifice all at the same time, before everything else?
Did God really have to tempt Adam and Eve with a fancy apple and a smooth talking Serpent?

*

Edited by Quisant, 23 April 2011 - 10:05 AM.

[Leto]

Quisant, on 23 April 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7)

So God creates the very hands that are required to kill his infallible Word?

Could God not have dealt with Incarnation, Creation and Sacrifice all at the same time, before everything else?
Did God really have to tempt Adam and Eve with a fancy apple and a smooth talking Serpent?

*

As I've told many times God doesn't have to do anything.

[Quisant]

Leto, on 23 April 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

As I've told many times God doesn't have to do anything.

You mean God does not have to be Benevolent?

Did he not place the 'tree of knowledge' in Paradise together with a clever snake?  
*

[Leto]

Quisant, on 23 April 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

You mean God does not have to be Benevolent?

You could argue benevolence is a divine attribute. You can't say God is obliged to meet our ideas of benevolence for a concept within creation can't hold power over God.

Quote

Did he not place the 'tree of knowledge' in Paradise together with a clever snake?  

Dunno?

Edited by Leto, 23 April 2011 - 12:01 PM.

[Son of Placid]

Quisant, on 23 April 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

You mean God does not have to be Benevolent?

Did he not place the 'tree of knowledge' in Paradise together with a clever snake?  
*

Of course God has to be benevolent, Muslims force Him. They gave Him the name and 98 more. He has no choice now.
I wish I had a tree of knowledge. It would have saved me all that time in school. And a snake that could explain how it works, awesome! Instant puberty.

You guys ever thought of writing for Fox news, or maybe some rag mag? The opening post reads like a rag already.
With your ability to think in circles, avoid any real messages, and tread on pearls you could keep all the stupid people entertained.

People buy that stuff!
With all this Christian heresay going around I'm sure you could convince more than a few Muslims to put on their C4 belt buckles and "sacrifice" themselves for the sake of the world.

What a glorious sacrifice it would be! Tell them more about the virgins.
I bet you've got something to say about our god gifted bunny who hides Easter eggs and chocolate self portraits all over the world for children to find as well.
Actually it's not real chocolate, it's more wax and sugar. You could expose the fraud! You'd be rich!

Edited by Son of Placid, 23 April 2011 - 12:35 PM.

[mehdi soldier]

Quisant, on 23 April 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

You mean God does not have to be Benevolent?

Did he not place the 'tree of knowledge' in Paradise together with a clever snake?  
*

you should please watch the video of Hassanain Rajabali in the OP .he dealt with the question of this so called "tree of knowledge".there is nothing like "tree of knowledge".if you go through the Quran you'd find that when God created Adam ,the first thing done was to teach him.when God revealed the Holy Quran the first word was "read".so it is impossible for God to be against giving us knowledge.it just does not make sense.as i recently read an article, it declares that the bible is the main reason for the existence of atheists."the bible made us atheists" i think was the title.

another point,if Adam had no knowledge of "good and evil" and was dumb and ignorant then he was not responsible for the so called "sin".how can you blame someone for committing an act he has no knowledge its bad?God told him not to?well how would he know that if he does not heed the warning it is "evil" or "bad"?in islam we are not punished for what we are ignorant of.

from the (shia) islamic understanding,the tree and the fruit Adam ate from was only meant to teach him.it was a sunnah so to say.it was meant to show him who the enemy was and what to do..you can see that immediately after Adam ate from the treet he felt something was wrong (he saw his nakedness which was a blessing for reproduction) and went back to his Lord.then based on the Quran God made His first covenant with Adam which promised him and his posterity guidance and their responsibility to follow the guidance and they will attain bliss.the essence of this life is not to be perfect and sit down and fold our arms and be clapping and dancing that we are "saved".the essence of this life is to strive for perfection through nearness to God which in the process we try to better ourselves and learn great lessons and become wiser.that is Islam.

as for that loser "Son of Placid",he should be ignored.he didnt know how to answer the OP.but got time to make off-topic irrelevant comments.

Edited by mehdi soldier, 23 April 2011 - 04:31 PM.

[Son of Placid]

mehdi soldier, on 23 April 2011 - 04:25 PM, said:

you should please watch the video of Hassanain Rajabali in the OP .he dealt with the question of this so called "tree of knowledge".there is nothing like "tree of knowledge".if you go through the Quran you'd find that when God created Adam ,the first thing done was to teach him.when God revealed the Holy Quran the first word was "read".so it is impossible for God to be against giving us knowledge.it just does not make sense.as i recently read an article, it declares that the bible is the main reason for the existence of atheists."the bible made us atheists" i think was the title.

another point,if Adam had no knowledge of "good and evil" and was dumb and ignorant then he was not responsible for the so called "sin".how can you blame someone for committing an act he has no knowledge its bad?God told him not to?well how would he know that if he does not heed the warning it is "evil" or "bad"?in islam we are not punished for what we are ignorant of.

from the (shia) islamic understanding,the tree and the fruit Adam ate from was only meant to teach him.it was a sunnah so to say.it was meant to show him who the enemy was and what to do..you can see that immediately after Adam ate from the treet he felt something was wrong (he saw his nakedness which was a blessing for reproduction) and went back to his Lord.then based on the Quran God made His first covenant with Adam which promised him and his posterity guidance and their responsibility to follow the guidance and they will attain bliss.the essence of this life is not to be perfect and sit down and fold our arms and be clapping and dancing that we are "saved".the essence of this life is to strive for perfection through nearness to God which in the process we try to better ourselves and learn great lessons and become wiser.that is Islam.

as for that loser "Son of Placid",he should be ignored.he didnt know how to answer the OP.but got time to make off-topic irrelevant comments.

How can you call that off topic? I found your true talent! I hope you didn't copy all that.

Somehow I don't see being a loser in your eyes as a bad thing.

First off it wasn't "the tree of knowledge" and secondly, it doesn't mean wasn't just because it's not in the Quran.
Show me where in the Quran it mentions a Mahdi going into a 1000 yr occultation.
How about the Jesus comes back wearing two yellow dresses and killing all the Christians with swords.
The Jesus stays in the rain to gain 40 virgins is a good one too.

Back to the "tree" thing. If you don't have your story straight enough to know what you're talking about to begin with, then your entire post is irrelevent. Your friend Rajaball doesn't sound like he has much going on either. Together I'm sure you two can convince stupid Muslims of whatever you spew, maybe make a bunch of little followers, imagine, mehdi soldierism takes over the world!
There are Christians and intelligent Muslims who know better already.

You hate Christianity and your goal is to demonize it to the world, (ur special corner of it anyway).

I'm just hoping I can make this point about you without insulting the real Muslims.

[mehdi soldier]

Son of Placid, on 23 April 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

How can you call that off topic? I found your true talent! I hope you didn't copy all that.

Somehow I don't see being a loser in your eyes as a bad thing.

First off it wasn't "the tree of knowledge" and secondly, it doesn't mean wasn't just because it's not in the Quran.
Show me where in the Quran it mentions a Mahdi going into a 1000 yr occultation.
How about the Jesus comes back wearing two yellow dresses and killing all the Christians with swords.
The Jesus stays in the rain to gain 40 virgins is a good one too.

Back to the "tree" thing. If you don't have your story straight enough to know what you're talking about to begin with, then your entire post is irrelevent. Your friend Rajaball doesn't sound like he has much going on either. Together I'm sure you two can convince stupid Muslims of whatever you spew, maybe make a bunch of little followers, imagine, mehdi soldierism takes over the world!
There are Christians and intelligent Muslims who know better already.

You hate Christianity and your goal is to demonize it to the world, (ur special corner of it anyway).

I'm just hoping I can make this point about you without insulting the real Muslims.

lol...

you've spent quite sometimes on this forum with your dad "Placid".all the while you were pretending and fooling the unsuspecting.now that all attempts to deceive people into your christianity have failed you going "wild wild west".its great we're being entertained.you're now exposing your ignorance and frustration.

am still waiting for the day your old man (Placid) is going to use his walking stick to beat us.lol

[IloveImamHussain]

Quisant, on 23 April 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

Did he not place the 'tree of knowledge' in Paradise together with a clever snake?

Let us suppose He did. Does it automatically and necessarily follow that He is not Benevolent ?  

I doubt it.

Quisant, on 23 April 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

You mean God does not have to be Benevolent?

The question whether He has to be Benevolent or not has been correctly responded to you by Leto. God does not have to be anything in particular. He does not have to, as it were, prove Himself, like you and I need to.

However, the Islamic belief is that God is infinitely Benevolent and also infinitely Just.

Actually, His benevolence is of two types - Rahman and Raheem. Rahman means that He is infinitely Benevolent to everyone equally. Raheem means that His Benevolence is proportional to the individuals' performance. The better person will see more of it.

So combining the three aspects  - Rahman (Benevolent to all), Raheem (Benevolent according to your merit) and Aadil (Just) means that He may not appear equally benevolent to everyone at all times.

That is why we see rewards and punishments. But because of His being benevolent to all, He provides us with our needs all the time. He withdraws them sometimes in order to test us in our distress. But by and large, He looks after His creation.

The Quran claims that if we were to count His blessings, they are so innumerable that we would never finish the task.

[16:18] And if you would try and count God's Blessings, you would not be able to. Indeed, God is Gracious and Merciful!  

The mother’s love for the child is a good analogy. No one can love you more than your mother. But her love also has two aspects. So while she loves the child all the time, when the child disobeys her, she could give him some very hard punishment. Mothers are known to have challenged their children in court. Does it mean they don’t love them ? They do but their love, like God’s, has two aspects – one constant and unchanging and the other changing according to the child’s behaviour.  

Hope you get the picture.

[Son of Placid]

IloveImamHussain, on 23 April 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

Let us suppose He did. Does it automatically and necessarily follow that He is not Benevolent ?  

I doubt it.


The question whether He has to be Benevolent or not has been correctly responded to you by Leto. God does not have to be anything in particular. He does not have to, as it were, prove Himself, like you and I need to.

However, the Islamic belief is that God is infinitely Benevolent and also infinitely Just.

Actually, His benevolence is of two types - Rahman and Raheem. Rahman means that He is infinitely Benevolent to everyone equally. Raheem means that His Benevolence is proportional to the individuals' performance. The better person will see more of it.

So combining the three aspects  - Rahman (Benevolent to all), Raheem (Benevolent according to your merit) and Aadil (Just) means that He may not appear equally benevolent to everyone at all times.

That is why we see rewards and punishments. But because of His being benevolent to all, He provides us with our needs all the time. He withdraws them sometimes in order to test us in our distress. But by and large, He looks after His creation.

The Quran claims that if we were to count His blessings, they are so innumerable that we would never finish the task.

[16:18] And if you would try and count God's Blessings, you would not be able to. Indeed, God is Gracious and Merciful!  

The mother's love for the child is a good analogy. No one can love you more than your mother. But her love also has two aspects. So while she loves the child all the time, when the child disobeys her, she could give him some very hard punishment. Mothers are known to have challenged their children in court. Does it mean they don't love them ? They do but their love, like God's, has two aspects – one constant and unchanging and the other changing according to the child's behaviour.  

Hope you get the picture.

Very well said.

Hebrews 12: 7-11 ⁷ Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? ⁸ If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. ⁹ Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! ¹⁰ They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. ¹¹ No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

[Quisant]

mehdi soldier, on 23 April 2011 - 04:25 PM, said:

another point,if Adam had no knowledge of "good and evil" and was dumb and ignorant then he was not responsible for the so called "sin".how can you blame someone for committing an act he has no knowledge its bad?God told him not to?well how would he know that if he does not heed the warning it is "evil" or "bad"?in islam we are not punished for what we are ignorant of.

I agree with you entirely.

Adam and Eve were innocent and forgetful like little children: they were not aware of notions of 'Good and Evil' because they had not eaten from 'the tree of knowledge.'

If parents say to a six year old child:
' We are going out shopping for half an hour, you are allowed to play with everything in this room EXCEPT the  little Red Box on the table'
it is obvious that as soon as they shut the door the child will start playing with the Red Box.

The idea that the whole of humanity should have become 'sinful' as a result of a little childish mischief is just absurd.

Ws.
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[Quisant]

IloveImamHussain, on 23 April 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

However, the Islamic belief is that God is infinitely Benevolent and also infinitely Just.

For the moment I would like to address the Christian belief, I am aware what the Islamic belief is.
But thanks for your explanation.

IloveImamHussain, on 23 April 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

[size=3]The question whether He has to be Benevolent or not has been correctly responded to you by Leto.
God does not have to be anything in particular. He does not have to, as it were, prove Himself, like you and I need to.

I don't believe Leto's reply addresses the problem. A mysterious God  is not a good answer.

The claim that God ‘transcends our understanding’ is usually invoked as a defence for the so-called "paradoxes of Faith"
It essentially says "I'm right, shut up." or "Who are YOU to question God?"  

"God is outside logic" is just another way of saying "Statements made about God are not true."    They both mean exactly the same thing.

If God is beyond laws, then it has the potential of being lawless and thus wayward.
Therefore God could be Benevolent, Malevolent or Indifferent.

Believers, in fact, RELY on god acting in a logical way: God is good, he will certainly set everything right:  If I behave myself he'll send me to heaven.

Ws.
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[Quisant]

IloveImamHussain, on 23 April 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

They do but their love, like God’s, has two aspects – one constant and unchanging and the other changing according to the child’s behaviour.  

Hope you get the picture. [/size]

If you believe that God changes His mind, then you believe He is imperfect.
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