60 replies to this topic

[mahfouzman]

Ok so I'm curious, because I was always taught that although Omar and Abu Bakr went against everything the Prophet said, we are still not permitted to curse them because of their ties to the Prophet . However, the other day, some of my friends were openly cursing them, and they claimed that it was halaal and even recommended to do it. Any thoughts?

[Replicant]

mahfouzman, on 19 March 2011 - 01:01 AM, said:

Ok so I'm curious, because I was always taught that although Omar and Abu Bakr went against everything the Prophet said, we are still not permitted to curse them because of their ties to the Prophet . However, the other day, some of my friends were openly cursing them, and they claimed that it was halaal and even recommended to do it. Any thoughts?

You are allowed to send lanah upon them but not abuse them and call them names - they were the enemies of Islam and the Ahlulbayt .
But do consider the feelings of other people i.e. don't do it in front of people that respect them.

[sameer44]

Mushu, on 19 March 2011 - 05:48 AM, said:

It is recommended, the Prophet said 'Whoever does not request lanah the enemies of Ahlul-Bayt, I myself will request lanah on them'.

Also, it is important that you not that 'lanah' is not cursing. Cursing them would be wrong, as you are not meant to insult the respected personalities of others. That includes Hindus for example, we can't go around laughing at 'Ganesh', its wrong. Lanah means 'to request that Allah remove his mercy'. So, if i say 'lanah on Omar', all i'm doing is asking Allah to remove his blessing/mercy from him.

Do not compare Ganesha or any human with Sahaba you just dont know what Muqaam they have  He is Father In Law of Muhammed SAWS how can you tell that what he has done or not Allah knows Better
who ever wrote what or which Book Or hadees Allah is the only Sole Responsible to judge any person
Huzoor Prayed for Umar RA on the same day he came to Islam Huzoor said if there was any option from Allah any one would be prophet after me it would be Umar RA
I can prove this from sahi Hadees as well so THink before you give comments may Allah give you knoledge of Deen and Imaan and to become True Muslim

[Kamranistan]

Brother the discussion taking place does not need diverting off the topic, you could go to the sunni/shia section and open a thread if you wish.

Replicant, on 19 March 2011 - 07:17 AM, said:

You are allowed to send lanah upon them but not abuse them and call them names - they were the enemies of Islam and the Ahlulbayt .
But do consider the feelings of other people i.e. don't do it in front of people that respect them.

Exactly this, but I would like to highlite that there is no need to do it openly and in front of brothers/sisters that regard them in high esteem. That will just provoke a reaction.

[Gibrael]

Mushu, on 19 March 2011 - 05:48 AM, said:

It is recommended, the Prophet said 'Whoever does not request lanah the enemies of Ahlul-Bayt, I myself will request lanah on them'.

Also, it is important that you not that 'lanah' is not cursing. Cursing them would be wrong, as you are not meant to insult the respected personalities of others. That includes Hindus for example, we can't go around laughing at 'Ganesh', its wrong. Lanah means 'to request that Allah remove his mercy'. So, if i say 'lanah on Omar', all i'm doing is asking Allah to remove his blessing/mercy from him.

So if I choose not to do lanah, I am going to hell? The beliefs some people have make me question which God they believe in. Regardless if these people were deserving of it or not, does it not offend our sunni brothers? As a muslim there are so many prayers, duas, charitble things, condoning the good and forbidding the evil, etc that I dont have time to be spending in talk that doesnt elevate my spirtuality towards peace, love, and Allah swt.  If someone is guilty of something he is going to Hell regardless if I curse him or not.

In this day and age where you can have intellectual debates with our brothers from different sects, it doesnt do us any good to insult them and then enter into a dialouge as someone who curses people. If you think lahnah means remove blessings and mercy, other people take it as "Allah swt send this person to HELL" If someone said this about my Imams, I dont think a debate would be needed with such an ignorant person. Did the Prophet SAWS do lanah on a regular basis? As far as I know, he did it on one occasion in a life of 63 years.

The time of attacking each other is over, its time to stand side by side and have good intellectual discussins and debate with the best of voices.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

In Sufism, we're taught to respect Omar and Abu Bakr, but not to honor them on the level of Imam Ali. Abu Bakr, even in Sunni traditions, seems to misunderstand the message of God and needs things explained to him by the Holy Prophet. He's below Imam Ali, but that's as far as Abu Bakr is portrayed in Sufi traditions. Flawed at times, but not evil. Same goes for Aisha. The one figure I hear cursed by Sufis is Yazid.

[.IceMan.]

Never curse Abu bakr or Omar. Say May God curse the enemies of Rasolullah (S) and his ahlul bayt .

[Dina]

I believe it is more constructive to seek unity amongst Muslims - regardless of differences and disagreements. As Muslims, we must attempt to seek reconciliation, compromise and peace. These are rather difficult to attain, if each group is re-living history by according blame to the other for matters over which neither had control.

By invoking Allah SWT's Mercy or Wrath upon those long deceased is neither practical nor productive. We had no say over those historical events which have led to so many divisions and such bitterness. We cannot change the past. But we can change the present, and thus re-fashion the direction and destiny of the future. In Sha Allah Ta'aala.

Inheriting and/or expressing anger is only useful if it is put to good use. Otherwise, it is a negative emotion exploited by Satan. Wa Llahu 'Alam.

As Salaamu 'Alaykum

[eThErEaL]

Well said Dina.  

I think most of us Shias need to grow up and start reading about the lives of the companions and how they converted to Islam.  And to revere those three Sahabas does not conflict with the principles and essence of Shiasm.  

Masalama
MK

[La fata illa Ali]

   w/r w/b:

here is a dua from Sahife Alaviya (duas.org) which just shows you what Imam Ali thought of those `two`

http://www.duas.org/...iya/dua-120.htm



Supplication called: Saname Quraish



In the name of Allah the Beneficent the Merciful.

O Allah! Curse the two idols of Quraish and their two magicinas, their two rebellious people, their two accusers and their two daughters. Rebuke them, they have consumed Your sustenance and have denied Your obligations, both have discarded Your commands, have rejected Your revelation, have disobeyed Your Prophet, hav destroyed Your religion, have distorted Your book, have made Your laws ineffective, have declared Your obligatory actions as incorrect, have disbelieved in Your signs, have oppressed Your friends, have loved Your enemies, have spread corruption among Your people, have made Your world occur loses.

O Allah! Send Your curses on them and their helpers as they have ruined the house of Your prophet, have dug the door of his house, broken the roof, have brought down the walls, have made the skies, the ground, have destroyed its inhabitants, have killed their supporters have put to death, their children have deserted his pulpit by his successors of knowledge, have desired his prophethood, have ascribed a partner to their Lord, thus consider both of their sins to be great, and make their abode in 'saqar' forever, and do you know what is 'saqar?'

It leaves nothing, nor let anything remain. O Allah, send Your chastisement on them to the extent of the sins of every disobedient, and the covering of truth, and all the pupils where they have gone, and the believer whom they have harmed and the disbeliever whom they have loved,

and to the number of pious people whom they have troubled, and whom they have driven out of their cities, and helped the disbelievers, and the Imam on whom they were cruel and have changed the obligatory laws, and have destroyed the practise of the Holy Prophet, and whatever evils they have concealed, the blood which they shed, have changed the goodness and have altered the commands, have created disbelief, or the lie for which they have cheated, the inheritance which they have plundered, and stopped the booties from them and have consumed the prohibited wealth,

and that 'Khums' (the fifth part) which they considered as permitted for them, and that evil whose foundation were put, and that cruelty which they made common, that oppression, which they spread, those promises, which they dishonoured, those covenant which they broke, those lawful which is termed as unlawful, and that unlawful which is termed as lawful,

that hypocrisy which they have concealed in the hearts, and to the amount of treachery which they bore in their hearts, and those stomach which they have split open, and that 'pahlu' which they broke, and that door which they broke-opened, and those gatherings which they dispersed and those degraded whom they gave honour, and those honourable wom they insulted,

and by the number of rights which they have usurped, and the order of Imam which they opposed, bestow Your wrath on them to the extent of the atrocities.

O Allah! Your curses on them to the extent of alteration in Quran and covering the truth, rendering the will, worthless, and breaking the promises, and declaring all the claims as void, refusing all the allegiances, presenting excuses, introducing breach of trust, climbing of hills ande to the nuer of vessel which they turned upside down and all that defects which they possessed. Bestow Your curses on them.

O Allah curse those two, secretly and openly, such a beating which is forever continuous, nonstop and innumberable. Such a whipping which commences in the morning but does not ends at night.

Such a beating should be on those tyrants, and their helpers, their assistance, their friends and their lovers, those attracted to them and those who acknowledge their deeds, those who present proof for them, and those who follow their words, and those who approve their actions.

(Then recite four times).

O Allah! Send such a harsh chastisement upon them, that the dwellers of Hell start screaming, O Lord of the Universe accept this prayer from me.








So what do you folks think know????

Do we need to still `Grow up` ???


Replicant and Mushu, may Allah (aj) never remove you two from the straight path. Ilahiameen!|


   w/r w/b:

La fata illa Ali

[Zille Abbas]

Well I have very limited knowledge on the subject and as far as I have read, Imam Ali A.S, I don't find him cursing people frequently. Even For Muaviya, our beloved Imam uses the word "most adrift". However there are some references in books i.e one by Imam Jafar Sadiq A.S where he says both Abu Bakr and Umer must be cursed and in one hadith Imam Ali bin Al-Hussain says "Who after Rusool SAW, by rejecting the true Imam, became Kafir" Usool-e-Kafi. But after thoroughly imagining the character of Imam Ali A.S and 26 years he spent before being brought to power, there are very rare accounts of sending lanaa't on them. Anyway, who has enough time to think about anyone else other than Ahl-e-Bayt? Atleast I don't have.

[Zille Abbas]

Secondly, only way to spread Shia'ism is by love of Ahl-e-Bayt and especially in the countries where Shias are in minority, it is only by preaching love for Ahl-e-Bayt that other sects will get attracted towards this path. And when they come to know that Shias have such harsh views about people they respect the most, they will not listen to you even and start hating you which will not be a good result. It is just like same when some Sunnis say that "Karbala was a battle between two princes" So upon listening to this statement, a Shia will automatically start hating that person and would not even listen to him.

[89jghur32]

Saintly_Jinn23, on 27 March 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

In Sufism, we're taught to respect Omar and Abu Bakr, but not to honor them on the level of Imam Ali. Abu Bakr, even in Sunni traditions, seems to misunderstand the message of God and needs things explained to him by the Holy Prophet. He's below Imam Ali, but that's as far as Abu Bakr is portrayed in Sufi traditions. Flawed at times, but not evil. Same goes for Aisha. The one figure I hear cursed by Sufis is Yazid.

I'd hope that every Muslim would curse Yazid.  He has no share in Islam for what he did to Imam Husain [a] and the rest of the Prophet's [s] family.

.IceMan., on 28 March 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

Never curse Abu bakr or Omar. Say May God curse the enemies of Rasolullah (S) and his ahlul bayt .

This is the wisest way to do l`aan.  There's no need to go around provoking people by using names.

Dina, on 29 May 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

I believe it is more constructive to seek unity amongst Muslims - regardless of differences and disagreements. As Muslims, we must attempt to seek reconciliation, compromise and peace. These are rather difficult to attain, if each group is re-living history by according blame to the other for matters over which neither had control.

By invoking Allah SWT's Mercy or Wrath upon those long deceased is neither practical nor productive. We had no say over those historical events which have led to so many divisions and such bitterness. We cannot change the past. But we can change the present, and thus re-fashion the direction and destiny of the future. In Sha Allah Ta'aala.

Inheriting and/or expressing anger is only useful if it is put to good use. Otherwise, it is a negative emotion exploited by Satan. Wa Llahu 'Alam.

As Salaamu 'Alaykum

What I've bolded is the purpose of bara`at.  Of course, there are different ways to do it, but we must all seek to fulfill this purpose.  Otherwise, we'll just end up confuse, i.e. loving the enemies and whatnot.

eThErEaL, on 04 June 2011 - 05:07 AM, said:

Well said Dina.  

I think most of us Shias need to grow up and start reading about the lives of the companions and how they converted to Islam.  And to revere those three Sahabas does not conflict with the principles and essence of Shiasm.  

Masalama
MK

What do you mean by revere?  If you mean to give them credit where those three deserved it, then that would be the honest thing to do.  However, if you mean to say that they were on the Truth, then that goes agains the essence of Shiism.

[The Exalted One]

Kinda' insane for a heathen like me to jump in such a sensitive Muslim affair, but hey! Old habits die hard. Can't help it. Anyway...

Jumping to conclusions and acting certain about something that is uncertain is illogical. And pointing finger at ANYONE'S character and cursing them when there's no concrete evidence of them being guilty is unacceptable [or at least not-so-acceptable]. The problem I see here is just that, some people are being head-strong certain about something that is uncertain [Abu Bakers' (and co.) character]. All we have at our hands are claims and speculations born from sources which are admittedly flawed and open for corrections [correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't Hadeeths and some hystery bo---I mean, history books the only source that brought up the negative claims about Abu Baker's (and co.) character?]. So at the end of it. There's nothing reliable. We have unverifiable claims and speculation coming from not-so-reliable sources [open for corrections], forming a whole set of [negative] presuppositions about someone's character is just unwise at best and cursing them based on those assumption is just plain disgraceful at worst, especially if the said people are high regarded and about whom so much positive things has been said and done.

In short, I personally don't condone the cursing of Sahaba. Then again, I'm not a Muslim. Just tryin' to share some thoughts. I'm open for correction myself if I got something wrong.

[Shia_Debater]

There are a group of people who say not to send Lanat because we don't have the right and maybe Allah (swt) will forgive those people and I can't remember to who this happened but once someone said that to someone else and the person replied then I will Lanat them twice because if Allah (swt) is going to forgive them for the massive sins they did then surely Allah (swt) will forgive me for sending a Lanat on them

[Lion of the Wasteland]

.IceMan., on 28 March 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

Never curse Abu bakr or Omar. Say May God curse the enemies of Rasolullah (S) and his ahlul bayt .

Well said,

also agree with people who said we should not provoke reaction from sunnis. The only way to get sunnis towards the light of the AhlulBayt is by good example, logic and guidance. remember the story of Imam Husayin and Imam Hasan (pbu them) when they saw the old man who did his abulations wrong. they did not confront the old man, or tell him to his face that he did his abulations wrong, instead they went beside him by the water, and one of the brothers asked the other one "how did you do this part?" and so on... in the end the old man thanked them and told them how clever they both were for showing him his wrongs in a way that did not insult or belittle him.

We know the corrupt history of Omar and Abu Bakr, but the sunnis do not, and they have been brought up to regard these people as heroes.

[Hassan_S]

sameer44, on 21 March 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Do not compare Ganesha or any human with Sahaba you just dont know what Muqaam they have  He is Father In Law of Muhammed SAWS how can you tell that what he has done or not Allah knows Better
who ever wrote what or which Book Or hadees Allah is the only Sole Responsible to judge any person
Huzoor Prayed for Umar RA on the same day he came to Islam Huzoor said if there was any option from Allah any one would be prophet after me it would be Umar RA
I can prove this from sahi Hadees as well so THink before you give comments may Allah give you knoledge of Deen and Imaan and to become True Muslim

If Umar was the closest to a prophet then why was Abu Bakr placed in a rank higher than him by you?
Why was this hadeeth not used in saqifa when debating over who should lead and on what basis?

[Taymour]

Mushu, on 19 March 2011 - 05:48 AM, said:

It is recommended, the Prophet said 'Whoever does not request lanah the enemies of Ahlul-Bayt, I myself will request lanah on them'.

Would it be safe to request Lanah on the enemies of Ahlul-Bayet without mentioning any names, For Allah knows more than us Exactly who they are.

Salam

[Replicant]

Taymour, on 09 August 2011 - 02:19 PM, said:

Would it be safe to request Lanah on the enemies of Ahlul-Bayet without mentioning any names, For Allah knows more than us Exactly who they are.

Salam

No problem with that.

[Waiting for HIM]

For unity sake let's not abuse or call names to Abu baker, Umer, and Usman. They are revered by our Sunni brothers and it's not worth risking the unity between us. Sometimes even if someone dad is a killer and a gangster, we do not curse him in front of his kids because they may say the sAme bad things about our pious forefathers.

As far as yazid and muwaiah, they are fair game.

[Muntaqim Force]

Cursing these enemies of Allah, Muhammad s,a,w and his Progeny p.b.u.t should not be ignored. Once you stopped cursing them, their crimes will fade by the time from history, and this is what the progeny of enemies of Ahle Bait want today.

Curse them, abuse them, tell people about their bad deeds and expose them but only when you are among your own people and when it comes to debate with sunnis over these enemies of Ahle Bait then tell them , we do not consider them right and we have no objection with you guys as having them your heroes as far as you are on Lailaha Illulah Muhammad ur rasoollulah we let you keep such unjust rulers as your leaders.

Also tell them, please do not fight with us when we call your caliphs unjust or wrong because in your faith the Caliph is not Infallible, therefore no need to feel astonished if such caliphs were  prone to mistakes ,had characteristics of pedophilia, nepotism  , cowardliness etc ,as rulers with such traits have ruled before them and after them too in history.  

[Taymour]

Replicant, on 09 August 2011 - 07:24 PM, said:

No problem with that.

Thanks for the reply brother

[Abo_Al7ur]

Replicant, on 19 March 2011 - 07:17 AM, said:

You are allowed to send lanah upon them but not abuse them and call them names - they were the enemies of Islam and the Ahlulbayt .
But do consider the feelings of other people i.e. don't do it in front of people that respect them.

Good answer

But don't forget that the Messenger of Allah   cursed them too in sunni books. Remember the Usama's Army
post 22 in this link
http://www.shiachat....ose-to-be-shia/

[Naad e Ali]

Well.... its our duty to curse the enemies of  our beloved holy Prophet and ehl bayt (a.s)... but rather than abusing them by names... i'd prefer to say...  O Allah , the Almighty... curse the enemies of our prophet and ahle bayt (a.s)....

[Aly ReZa]

Well said by muntaqim force that we have to show people what they sahaba were.
My opinion is that curse 3 of them for your lifetime.
They were the biggest enemies of imam ali a.s
And imam ali a.s enemies are our enemies.
And other as mushu mentioned in his post plz don't compare the ganesha with omar or abubakr.
Its a insult of ganesha.
And we should also respect our hindu peoples emotions.