12 replies to this topic

[macisaac]

Something I thought folks might find interesting.  It's a number of quotations from the patristic traditions, that is the writing of the early Church fathers (in the first centuries after Christ ), on the subject of what they believed Christian women should be observing in regards to their dress and covering.  For those who are not aware of them, the writing of the Church fathers are very key to understanding Christian belief and practice.  (I've gotten these from A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, edited by David Bercot, published by Hendrickson Publishers)



It has been commanded that the head should be veiled and the face covered. For it is a wicked thing for beauty to be a snare to men. Nor is it appropriate for a woman to desire to make herself conspicuous by using a purple veil.  - Clement of Alexandria, (c. 195)


When you are in the streets, cover your head. For by such a covering, you will avoid being viewed by idle persons... Look downward when you walk in public, veiling yourself, as becomes a woman. - Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c. 390)


Such a covering should be worn as is necessary for covering the eyes of women - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


By no means are women to be allowed to uncover and exhibit any part of their bodies, lest both fall - the men by being incited to look, and the women by attracting themselves to the eyes of the men - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


Be veiled, virgin, if you really are a virgin. For you should blush. If you are a virgin, shrink from the gaze of many eyes. let no one admire your face. Let no one perceive your falsehood - Tertullian (c. 198) (in this quote he's arguing the veiling is not only for married women but virgins as well)


It behooves our virgins to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning point of their age. This observance is required by truth - Tertullian (c. 207)


Luxurious clothing that cannot conceal the shape of the body is no more a covering. For such clothing, falling close to the body, take its form more easily. Clinging to the body as though it were the flesh, it receives its shape and outlines the woman's figure. As a result, the whole make of the body is visible to spectators, although they cannot see the body itself - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


Women for the most part wear shoes. For it is not suitable for the foot to be shown naked. Besides, woman is a tender thing, easily hurt. - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


Woman and man are to go to church decently attired, with natural step, embracing silence... Let the woman observe this, further: Let her be entirely covered, unless she happens to be at home. For that style of dress is serious and protects from being gazed at. And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modest and her veil. Nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled. - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


First, then, blessed sisters, take heed that you do not admit to your use of flashy and sluttish garbs and clothing. - Tertullian (c. 198)

[bi_ithnillaah]

niqaab <3

[macisaac]

bi_ithnillaah, on 07 January 2011 - 12:44 AM, said:

niqaab <3

Here's another one:

For some, with their turbans and woolen bands, do not veil their heads, but bind them up.  They are protected, indeed, in front.  However, they are bare where the head properly lies.  Others are to a certain extent covered over the region of the brain with linen doilies of small dimensions ... which do not quite reach the ears ... Let them know that the whole head constitutes the woman.  Its limits and boundaries reach as far as the place where the robe begins.  The region of the veil is co-extensive with the space covered by the hair when unbound ... Arabia's pagan females will be your judges.  For they cover not only the head, but the face also.  - Tertullian (c. 207)

[phoenix]

Lowering of the gaze does make a woman (only)? And so also, the covering on the head?

Do they have it that the same is advised for men the way Islam does (the first obligatory, the second recommended)?

[iere]

Very interesting. Tertullian supported pagan practices within Christianity., and I personally do not hold his writings in any regard. However, the Holy Scriptures definitely do require modesty of Christians - women and men.

Edited by iere, 02 May 2011 - 02:20 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

I also admonish you second group of women, who are married, not to outgrow the discipline of the veil. Not even for a moment of an hour. Because you can't avoid wearing a veil, you should not find some other way to nullify it. That is, by going about neither covered nor bare. For some women do not veil their heads, but rather bind them up with turbans and woollen bands. It's true that they are protected in front. But where the head properly lies, they are bare.

Others cover only the area of the brain with small linen coifs that do not even quite reach the ears.... They should know that the entire head constitutes the woman. Its limits and boundaries reach as far as the place where the robe begins. The region of the veil is co-extensive with the space covered by the hair when it is unbound. In this way, the neck too is encircled.

The pagan women of Arabia will be your judges. For they cover not only the head, but the face also. . . . But how severe a chastisement will they likewise deserve, who remain uncovered even during the recital of the Psalms and at any mention of the name of God? For even when they are about to spend time in prayer itself, they only place a fringe, tuft [of cloth], or any thread whatever on the crown of their heads. And they think that they are covered! [Tertullian, The Veiling of Virgins, chapter 17]


Throughout Greece, and certain of its barbaric provinces, the majority of churches keep their virgins covered. In fact, this practice is followed in certain places beneath this African sky. So let no one ascribe this custom merely to the Gentile customs of the Greeks and barbarians.

Moreover, I will put forth as models those churches that were founded by either apostles or apostolic men. . . . The Corinthians themselves understood him to speak in this manner. For to this very day the Corinthians veil their virgins. What the apostles taught, the disciples of the apostles confirmed. [Tertullian, The Veiling of Virgins, chapter 2]



"Let the woman observe this, further. Let her be entirely covered, unless she happens to be at home. For that style of dress is grave, and protects from being gazed at. And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modesty, and her shawl; nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled." [Clement, The Instructor 3.12]


And let all the women have their heads covered with an opaque cloth, not with a veil of thin linen, for this is not a true covering. [Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition]


Some pictures: http://www.scrollpub...ng-history.html


You can read On the Veiling of Virgns by Tertullian here: http://www.newadvent...athers/0403.htm

Edited by Haydar Husayn, 19 December 2011 - 10:03 AM.

[Haydar Husayn]

It's probably also worth quoting the words of Paul in the New Testament that were the basis for Christian women covering their hair, although of course Jewish women already covered their hair at the time:


1 Corinthians 11:4-16

New International Version (NIV)
⁴ Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. ⁵ But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. ⁶ For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

⁷ A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. ⁸ For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; ⁹ neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. ¹⁰ It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. ¹¹ Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. ¹² For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

¹³ Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? ¹⁴ Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, ¹⁵ but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. ¹⁶ If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

http://www.biblegate...:16&version=NIV

[Z.M]

We should show these to christian radical conservative feminists who've taken it upon them selves to speak for Muslim women and encourage them to take off their veils and accept Christ.

[Christianlady]

macisaac, on 07 January 2011 - 12:37 AM, said:

Something I thought folks might find interesting.  It's a number of quotations from the patristic traditions, that is the writing of the early Church fathers (in the first centuries after Christ ), on the subject of what they believed Christian women should be observing in regards to their dress and covering.  For those who are not aware of them, the writing of the Church fathers are very key to understanding Christian belief and practice.  (I've gotten these from A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, edited by David Bercot, published by Hendrickson Publishers)

Hello Macisaac,

First of all, I disagree that these men are truly the Church fathers, because the leaders of the church, after Jesus ascended into Heaven, were the apostles he chose, who walked and talked with him, not Gentiles who later on took over after the Jewish apostles of Jesus died.

Quote

It has been commanded that the head should be veiled and the face covered. For it is a wicked thing for beauty to be a snare to men. Nor is it appropriate for a woman to desire to make herself conspicuous by using a purple veil.  - Clement of Alexandria, (c. 195)


When you are in the streets, cover your head. For by such a covering, you will avoid being viewed by idle persons... Look downward when you walk in public, veiling yourself, as becomes a woman. - Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c. 390)


Such a covering should be worn as is necessary for covering the eyes of women - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


By no means are women to be allowed to uncover and exhibit any part of their bodies, lest both fall - the men by being incited to look, and the women by attracting themselves to the eyes of the men - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


Be veiled, virgin, if you really are a virgin. For you should blush. If you are a virgin, shrink from the gaze of many eyes. let no one admire your face. Let no one perceive your falsehood - Tertullian (c. 198) (in this quote he's arguing the veiling is not only for married women but virgins as well)


It behooves our virgins to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning point of their age. This observance is required by truth - Tertullian (c. 207)


Luxurious clothing that cannot conceal the shape of the body is no more a covering. For such clothing, falling close to the body, take its form more easily. Clinging to the body as though it were the flesh, it receives its shape and outlines the woman's figure. As a result, the whole make of the body is visible to spectators, although they cannot see the body itself - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


Women for the most part wear shoes. For it is not suitable for the foot to be shown naked. Besides, woman is a tender thing, easily hurt. - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


Woman and man are to go to church decently attired, with natural step, embracing silence... Let the woman observe this, further: Let her be entirely covered, unless she happens to be at home. For that style of dress is serious and protects from being gazed at. And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modest and her veil. Nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled. - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


First, then, blessed sisters, take heed that you do not admit to your use of flashy and sluttish garbs and clothing. - Tertullian (c. 198)

The Gentile leaders who took over were mainly Greeks and Roman Gentiles. Many considered sex to be something that should not be enjoyed, but used as a reproduction method only.

Sad to say, the Gentile leaders who considered themselves "Fathers" of the church, even went as far as forbidding religious leaders to get married, which is sad, since Peter, the leader of the apostles who walked and talked with Jesus, was married.


Matthew 8 (NIV) - (I boldened some.)
¹⁴ When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. ¹⁵ He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.
¹⁶ When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. ¹⁷ This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
   “He took up our infirmities
   and bore our diseases.”^[Isaiah 53:4 (see Septuagint)^]

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 13 February 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Christianlady]

Haydar Husayn, on 13 January 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

It's probably also worth quoting the words of Paul in the New Testament that were the basis for Christian women covering their hair, although of course Jewish women already covered their hair at the time:

Hello Haydar Husayn,

Thank you for addressing this passage. Because Paul's writings are a part of the New Testament in the Bible, they hold far more weight than any writings by Greek/Roman leaders after the time of the Jewish apostles, who walked and talked with Jesus. Although Paul was not an apostle who walked and talked with Jesus, he was a Jewish man who used to persecute Jewish followers of Jesus, until Jesus came to him.

One thing I personally do not understand, however, is that it seems many Muslims do not agree with any of Paul's teachings, except for this one little one, found only in Paul's letter to the group of followers of Jesus in the Greek city-state of Corinth. Please note that nowhere else in the Bible is this command given.

Quote

1 Corinthians 11:4-16

New International Version (NIV)
⁴ Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. ⁵ But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. ⁶ For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

⁷ A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. ⁸ For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; ⁹ neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. ¹⁰ It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. ¹¹ Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. ¹² For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

¹³ Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? ¹⁴ Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, ¹⁵ but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. ¹⁶ If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

http://www.biblegate...:16&version=NIV

I respect Paul very much, though many of his teachings are somewhat confusing to me. This is one of them, because of what he says concerning the men. First of all, he says to the Corinthians that men should not cover their heads.

1 Corinthians 11 (NIV)

"A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man."

However, a turban is a manly covering of the head, which the priests, of the tribe of Levi, son of Jacob (Israel) used: I boldened some below.

Exodus 28 (NIV)
³⁶ “Make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it as on a seal: HOLY TO THE LORD. ³⁷ Fasten a blue cord to it to attach it to the turban; it is to be on the front of the turban. ³⁸ It will be on Aaron’s forehead, and he will bear the guilt involved in the sacred gifts the Israelites consecrate, whatever their gifts may be. It will be on Aaron’s forehead continually so that they will be acceptable to the LORD.
³⁹ “Weave the tunic of fine linen and make the turban of fine linen. The sash is to be the work of an embroiderer. ⁴⁰ Make tunics, sashes and caps for Aaron’s sons to give them dignity and honor. ⁴¹ After you put these clothes on your brother Aaron and his sons, anoint and ordain them. Consecrate them so they may serve me as priests."

Many Jewish men who believe in God wear hats of different types today, so I most definitely believe that Paul was writing to the culture of the Corinthian people. Another issue is concerning his comment about men with long hair. Some Jewish men with a specific purpose, had long hair, the most famous of them being Samson, a Nazirite:

Judges 13 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹ Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, so the LORD delivered them into the hands of the Philistines for forty years.
² A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was childless, unable to give birth. ³ The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, “You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son. ⁴ Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean. ⁵ You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”"

So, when reading Paul's letters, it is important to know to whom Paul is writing. Because these comments of Paul are only found in the Bible in the letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians, most Christians of today believe he was addressing the culture of the Corinthians and promoting modesty in their culture.

Peace and God bless you

[aliasghark]

Quote

One thing I personally do not understand, however, is that it seems many Muslims do not agree with any of Paul's teachings, except for this

I think the point is that some sort of hijab is part of the Christian teachings as well (for Christians to follow). The point is not that Muslims are now taking their religion from Paul.

[satyaban]

macisaac, on 07 January 2011 - 12:37 AM, said:

Something I thought folks might find interesting.  It's a number of quotations from the patristic traditions, that is the writing of the early Church fathers (in the first centuries after Christ ), on the subject of what they believed Christian women should be observing in regards to their dress and covering.  For those who are not aware of them, the writing of the Church fathers are very key to understanding Christian belief and practice.  (I've gotten these from A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, edited by David Bercot, published by Hendrickson Publishers)



It has been commanded that the head should be veiled and the face covered. For it is a wicked thing for beauty to be a snare to men. Nor is it appropriate for a woman to desire to make herself conspicuous by using a purple veil.  - Clement of Alexandria, (c. 195)


When you are in the streets, cover your head. For by such a covering, you will avoid being viewed by idle persons... Look downward when you walk in public, veiling yourself, as becomes a woman. - Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c. 390)


Such a covering should be worn as is necessary for covering the eyes of women - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


By no means are women to be allowed to uncover and exhibit any part of their bodies, lest both fall - the men by being incited to look, and the women by attracting themselves to the eyes of the men - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


Be veiled, virgin, if you really are a virgin. For you should blush. If you are a virgin, shrink from the gaze of many eyes. let no one admire your face. Let no one perceive your falsehood - Tertullian (c. 198) (in this quote he's arguing the veiling is not only for married women but virgins as well)


It behooves our virgins to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning point of their age. This observance is required by truth - Tertullian (c. 207)


Luxurious clothing that cannot conceal the shape of the body is no more a covering. For such clothing, falling close to the body, take its form more easily. Clinging to the body as though it were the flesh, it receives its shape and outlines the woman's figure. As a result, the whole make of the body is visible to spectators, although they cannot see the body itself - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


Women for the most part wear shoes. For it is not suitable for the foot to be shown naked. Besides, woman is a tender thing, easily hurt. - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


Woman and man are to go to church decently attired, with natural step, embracing silence... Let the woman observe this, further: Let her be entirely covered, unless she happens to be at home. For that style of dress is serious and protects from being gazed at. And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modest and her veil. Nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled. - Clement of Alexandria (c. 195)


First, then, blessed sisters, take heed that you do not admit to your use of flashy and sluttish garbs and clothing. - Tertullian (c. 198)

Right lets roll back the clock to the first century _ce. Of course men should change their mode of dress as well, will the government provide us with big knives to wear?

[Alejandro Sosa]

nice thread