72 replies to this topic

[El Peace]

thirsty seeker, on 08 April 2011 - 03:48 AM, said:

Now my point is how we can justify God, wen all his creations are justified by logic,like why sun sets,moon has its definite path,why rainbow occur, all points are logically justified by science and in which God does not play any role...........

How can we prove logically that only God has power over all??

The sun rises to provide light to earth so that man can work and earn during the day. It provides energy for the plants through photosynthesis, and that way they grow and we eat from them. It then sets so that man can get rest at night and at the same time provide light for the others on the opposite hemisphere. The sun reflects it's light to the moon so that there is still light at night. The other suns (stars) are used to provide a path for the night travellers. The moon has a definite path so that it provides light for everyone on earth. And it must revolve around the earth in order to reflect the suns light. This is the only way day and night will exist and the importance of those is mentioned in the Quran:

--sura 55, verse 5:

"The sun and moon (are subjected) to calculations"

--sura 6, verse 96:

"(God) appointed the night for rest and the sun and the moon for reckoning."

--sura 14, verse 33:

"For you (God) subjected the sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses. And for you He subjected the night and the day."

--sura 36, verse 39: God is speaking:

"And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she returns like an old shriveled palm branch."

--sura 16, verse 12:

"For you (God) subjected the night and the day, the sun and the moon; the stars are in subjection to His Command. Verily in this are signs for people who are wise."

--sura 6, verse 97:

"(God) is the One Who has set out for you the stars, that you may guide yourselves by them through the darkness of the land and of the sea. We have detailed the signs for people who know."

--sura 16, verse 16:

"(God sets on the earth) landmarks and by the stars (men) guide themselves."

--sura 10, verse 5:

"God is the One Who made the sun a shining glory and the moon a light and for her ordained mansions, so that you might know the number of years and the reckoning (of the time). God created this in truth. He explains the signs in detail for people who know."

Through all this, science has discovered the different wavelengths and spectrum of light. They discovered that at different wavelengths, different colours are formed, etc. Science did not create this, it only discovered this.

Like how the two oceans do not mix. Allah created this and is proved in the Quran. Science only proved it by seeing that it did not mix due to different temperature and salt concentration.

"He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. (19) There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other) (20)" [Al-Quran, Chapter 55]

These discoveries are important in that we must know how things work. This way scientists can discover (again I do not say create) new and easier ways of performing everyday duties. That is the purpose of scientists. For example, the Quran mentions various fruits and vegetables and it says they are good for ones health. All scientists did was prove it by seeing the effects they had on the body. And the fruit Allah created give signs of where these fruits/vegetables would be useful for. Figs for example when sliced in half have the same morphology as a man's testes. Science proves that figs are good for a man's fertility. Olives are shaped like a woman's ovaries. Science proves they are good for the fertility of woman. And the Quran speaks about the creation of man with figs and olives:

"By the fig and the olive, (1) By Mount Sinai, (2) And by this land made safe; (3) Surely We created man of the best stature (4)" [Al-Quran, Chapter 95]

One cannot say that because Science justifies the purposes of all these, Allah has no role. Allah is the only One that actually has a role because He is the Creator. Scientists are the discoverers. Besides, what would be the purpose of scientists if Allah hadn't created all these. Therefore, one cannot give scientists the power of being the creators. One can only thank them for discovering the blessings of Allah.

Subhan Allah.

[eThErEaL]

thirsty seeker, on 24 December 2010 - 04:43 AM, said:

I believe in Allah subhanahu,
but in rcent talk one prsn said
just as we r born who created Allah ?what was there before Allah??
Allah created us then who created Allah?
U can post ur aqeeda by stories, shayris,kalams,hadis etc

Because God is not like creation to need a creator.

[Dhulfikar]

thirsty seeker, on 24 December 2010 - 04:43 AM, said:

I believe in Allah subhanahu,
but in rcent talk one prsn said
just as we r born who created Allah ?what was there before Allah??
Allah created us then who created Allah?
U can post ur aqeeda by stories, shayris,kalams,hadis etc

"Allah (SWT) gave beginning to everything so that everything would know that He has no beginning, and so that everything would know that those who have a beginning are incapable of giving a beginning to others" ~ Imam al-Rida

[Dhulfikar]

Salaam Aleikum,

"Allah was Lord even when there were no subjects. He was the One and Only True God even when no creation existed. He was All-Knowing even when there was nothing to be known. He was the Creator even before the creation existed. He was the All-Hearing even when there was nothing to be heard. He did not earn the title of Creator merely because of creation. He did not earn the title of Creator merely because he gave the created a beginning.

And how could it be otherwise when the conjunction 'since' [mudh] does not make Him obscure? The word 'may' [qad] does not approach Him. The expression 'perhaps' [la'alla] does not veil Him. The conjuction 'when' [mata] does not set a time limit for Him.  The expression 'at the time when' [hina] does not comprise Him. The word 'with' [ma'a] does not unite Him with anything. Verily, particles bind together, and tools point to things similar to themselves to show their effectiveness. The conjunction 'since' prevents Him from being without beginning. The word 'may' prevents Him from being eternal. The conjunction 'if not' [law la] prevents Him from being Complete; thus indicating division..."

[Suleman786]

Ok simply put

If you tholink simple mathematics and logical you get your answer. this question is always asked by Evolutionst Atheist in debates. All you ask them is

what was before?

So if they say bacteria you say "what was before that"
They will say cell say "what was before that"
They will say the big bang say "what was before that"
They will say rocks moving around say "what was before that"
They will say Gasses in space say "what was before that"
They will say chemicals say "what was before that"

The simple answer is there must be a beginning.

Simple mathematics
0x0 = 0, better yet 0 x EVRYTHING still equals 0 There had to have been a chemical imbalance at the very beginning for life to evolve. So it means that a pair of chemicals must have mixed to create something. But we must remember that for there to be an inbalance there must have been 2 chemicals CREATED. For them to mix in such a perfect way to create life as we know it now they must have been created by 1 and purposely inbalanced

There was life before us. Adama and Eve were the first of our times however.

[MHSK2011]

If somebody had created Allah so we wont worship him we would worship the one created him!!!!!!simple.....

[AlHamdulillah110]

Salaams,

I found this video on Youtube where this question is answered beauitifully by Hasnain Rajjabali:



You should tell this person that God is absolute and we are relative, we cannot comprehend the absolute because we do not have the thinking capicity to do so since we are relative. We are bound by time and space whereas God created time and space, He existed before then, for eternity which has no numerical value to it.

Imam Ali (a.s) puts it beauitiful in Nahjol Balagha:

"Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence."

http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/

[xstatik2]

Well i am pretty sure Allah (SWT) knew there will be a day when his believers would question his presence. Rather the Shaitaan would compel the believers into subconsciously thinking about the presence of God -- Asking one's self "Is there really a God" and if there IS a God (like we believe there is) we should be able to see him and since we can't there has to be a force greater than him who must have created such an entity -- one which cannot be seen or heard yet millions and billions of people worshipped him, will do so and the numbers keep growing.

So he has sent down his Holy Books which serve as guidance, and has sent down 1,24,000 messengers who have spoken of him and his existence and has sent down the Imam's ... one of whom is watching over us as we delve deeply into our thoughts. Forcing ourselves to reconcile that YES ... he is there. But imagine him in his entireity through the teachings of the Imams, the Messengers and the Holy Books and you would know that they are pure.

So if the light of God has been seen through them (ones who are exalted and pure) can you fathom the purity of Allah (SWT) ??? Would you want to know if he was still created ?? Would you get into that mindset or would you be as meek as a mouse ??

Food for thought

[Hassan_S]

thirsty seeker, on 24 December 2010 - 04:43 AM, said:

I believe in Allah subhanahu,
but in rcent talk one prsn said
just as we r born who created Allah ?what was there before Allah??
Allah created us then who created Allah?
U can post ur aqeeda by stories, shayris,kalams,hadis etc

Saamualaykum

Allah is one and there is none compariable to him
In order to have a beginning and end one has to be bound within time.
Allah swt created time so he has no beginning nor end

Wassalam

[hussain abass 98]

Allah is beyond time. he made everything finite. a creator will be stronger than the created

[ana_ma3a_al_haq]

who thinks like this has a very week Imaan

[mutahmarriage]

When did God exist

A Jew went to Ali and asked him, "When did God exist." Ali said that God is above consideration of time and space. Creation was not, and He was. He was while there was no being. He existed without cause. He has no beginning and no end. He is subject to no limitations. He is infinite. He is the end of all soul.  
The Jew next asked, "What is fate." Ali said. "It is a gloomy road; treat it not." The Jew repeated the question for the third time and Ali said, "It is a mystery of God which is hidden from you; do not probe into it. "The Jew insisted on a reply, and Ali asked him, "Has God created you for what he has willed, or what you have willed?" Thereupon Ali said, "Then He will do with you as He thinks fit, and that is fate." This impressed the Jew and he was converted to Islam at the hand of Ali.  

[YariAzQuran]

It's the law of causality. Just ask the atheist if you're talking to them over a cup of coffee, "what a beautiful cup!". They'll say "yeah, it sure is". Reply "such great detail, perfect size, etc etc". "Yeah yeah it sure is...", to which you say "can't believe it just popped into existence!". Any rational person will call you an idiot if you say such a thing. They atheist will say "no, it was manufactured and designed, and given to you through a series of events." To which you reply, "an you see such perfect detail in the universe, with everything being precisely where and how it needs to be just for us to have life, and yet you claim that there is no manufacturer, designer, or creator?"

I promise you he'll have nothing. It's simple logic, the beauty of the fitrah. Every painting has an artist. The universe is a lot more complicated and orderly than an painting, and therefore needs to have a creator. If doing da'wah, try explaining to a fellow Muslim (have it staged) this argument but in front of the atheist, so that he'll be more likely to accept it. Ego's put a brick wall that totally prevents anything, including simple logic, from getting through to someone's head if they're being attacked.

Wasalaam

[yaa mahdi]

Salaams,

A question that has been puzzling me is about time. I hope I can lay out my thoughts in a non confusing way

The Quran says Allah (swt) is not limited to time and space. However, time is normally defined as lets say I travelled from point A to point B, whatever is in between A and B is time. So in order for Allah (swt) to create Earth, Allah(swt) is going from nothing to the creation of Earth. In essence doesn't that mean that Allah is bounded by time?

Its not a question that weakens ones faith, its just a thought I have had for a while and hopefully somebody can clarify it for me.

JazaakAllah

[Pascal]

I've seen this pop up quiet often. I'd like to offer a couple objections.

1) Special Pleading - Why is God a special case? Everything else requires a cause, why should God be a special case at all in a philosophical sense. I know you think he is very special but that is different to suddenly allowing special pleading and just excusing one thing from logic. Why doesn't God also need a cause? A God. I know *your* particular conception of God assures you in the scriptures that he is the first cause and obviously you'd probably accept this anyway but it still is special pleading i believe.

2)The first cause does not need to be a God. I recently came across this in some work for my philosophy class actually. I'll give you a little excerpt from it:

"The conclusion is that God is the uncaused cause and the originator of all the other such causes.  In effect, anything could be the first cause because by definition the only property it has to posses is being the first cause of all other subsequent causes. The first cause is not stated to have and indeed does not need to have any of the other properties associated with God to be the first cause. It is illogical to jump to the assumption that the first cause must automatically have the properties of a God, as well, without any proof. It indeed does not have to have any of the properties that Aquinas would ascribe to the God he believes in(In this case you guys), for example, an absolutely evil God as the first cause would still be a sufficient first cause. As would be a group of uncaused Gods(Polytheism) or a cause with no other properties ascribed to it except being the first cause, hence, not being God. These beings are just as equally as likely to be first causes as a singular, monotheistic God. Even a totally non-divine event, such as the big bang, still fulfills the criteria as a first cause, even in the absence of a God.

So, the conclusion the first cause is God and must be God is not supported by the premises as it could just as equally be anything else that is not God as long as it is the first cause."

I also find dubious logicality (as in it doesn't make logical sense) in the statement that God exists but there was nothing to bring about such existence. Everything that exists had to come into existence at some point. It seems illogical to say that God always exists when becoming into existence is a logical necessary prerequisite of existing. If God exists there still has to be a point where he first existed at some stage. Something can't currently exist without first comming into an existence. So, on a logical basis i reject that notion. You might say that, oh but God is illogical. That isn't really an argument.. thats just saying i think humans can't understand it, your point is invalid just because of this and the problem is solved. To me this is almost the philosophical equivalent of just giving up.

I've noticed a few people here have doubted that God didn't have a cause or began somewhere.

If you're interested i may cover this at a later date here (http://kingpomba.tumblr.com).

[Lanatin]

The Exalted One, on 07 March 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:

Cause and effect and the process of bringing something into existence [and other laws of universe] are the set of laws God made, controls and directs, in order to govern and organize his creation, he isn't bind to the law as he is distinct from his creation. He is the originator, governor, director of these laws, he isn't governed by them as he IS the governor.

I've always wondered why your status says 'no religion, no ideology etc.' ...

Anyway, this is an old topic. The answer is in Surat Al-Ikhlas. God doesn't resemble the created in any form, he is samad (literally meaning independant, needless, self-generating) and he isn't begotten by any reproductive system.

[Muhammed Ali]

I am going to quote my own post.

Muhammed Ali, on 30 April 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

Tell me what you think: Who Created God

[Reshad]

In order to understand Allah better , in my opinion, you have to stop imagining him as a person or character

[HabibKarimi]

Salam.
Brother when you say who created Allah? this means that you are putting Allah into TIME. (meaning that not there once but then he came). Well we can't do that. Because Allah himself created time and Allah is not a matter (meaning doesn't take space or TIME). We can say who created us because we are made up of matter (we take space and are in a time). So basically your question doesn't makes sense. It is like this.

Why is your clothes wet?
Because the boy who touched my clothes, his hands were wet.
Why was his hands wet?
because he had water on his hands.
Why is the water wet?
Well because that is the characteristic of water.

Now with Allah it is the same. We can't say who created Allah. It is like saying why is the water wet? well the water is wet because it is wet. It is that way. Same for Allah, no one created Allah because he is the creator. He can't be created (just like the water can't be wetted by something else).

Hope you get me!!

[.InshAllah.]

1. God doesnt need a cause because He didnt begin to exist

2. First cause arguments dont prove all of the attributes of God, and nor are they meant to.

[AlHamdulillah110]

Aah the old chicken and egg debate.

I have a few points that maybe we can think about.

Surah Ahad:
In the name of Allah, the most beneficient the most merciful.

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

1) God is absolute, He has no frame of reference, because frame of reference implies that He is bound in time matter and space.
2) We are bound within a frame of reference, we come into existence, and then we die and no longer exist.
3) God is absolute, and we are relative. We cannot choose our gender, our families, when we are born, and when we die, these things are all chosen for us. We cannot comphrend Gods infinite existence, and the problem is that we keep bringing God to our relative world because we cannot concieve an infinite being, our imagination does not allow us so we try to bring God to our levels of thinking.
4) the relative world cannot exist withour an absolute creator, and thats the arguement or debate here. God is not transient, He is the necessary existence, we are the transient existence, meaning that you and i can exist or not exist, we cannot cause our own existence, there has to be a nesessary existence that isnt bound by time and space, but rather caused that into being. We are limited in our perceptions and concepts to understand God because we exist in a relative world, whereas He is not bound by our relative world, He is absolute.

So no one created God, rather it is a limitation in our own relative understanding which cannot comphrend the absolute.

[AlHamdulillah110]

this is what Imam Ali said about God in Nahjol Balagha (following on from my previous comment about God in the absolute sense and us in the relative, and how due to our own limitations of existing in the relative, we bring God into our level)

"Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot be appreciated, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained, and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him, and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him, and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation or movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence"- Imam Ali (a.s.),

Sermon One, Najhol Balagha.

[Aly ReZa]

Sure yaseen sura no 36 ayat no 77 to 83

Does not man see that we have created him from the small seed then lo he is an open disputant
and he strikes out a likeness for us and forgets his own creation
Says he who will give life to the bones when they are rotten says he will give life to them who brought them into existence at first and he is cognizant of all creation
He who has made for you the fire to burn from the green tree so that with it you kindle fire
Is not he who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like of them
Yea and he is the creator of all the knower
His command when he intend anything is only to say to it bo so it is
There glore be to him in whose hand is the kingdom of all thing and to him you shall be brought back.

The creator doesn't need creation.

Is the same thing like somebody mentioned who came first the egg or the hen.
The above ayats of sure yaseen clearly shows that we have made from a small seed and he is the creator
He has power over all things.

He is alone he doesn't need anybody nothing is superior as him
Nothing is comparable with him
Nobody has created but he has created all of us.
Allah o wahid
Allah is one
Allah o akbar
He is the most high.

[dletoben]

thirsty seeker, on 24 December 2010 - 04:43 AM, said:

I believe in Allah subhanahu,
but in rcent talk one prsn said
just as we r born who created Allah ?what was there before Allah??
Allah created us then who created Allah?
U can post ur aqeeda by stories, shayris,kalams,hadis etc

ask that person- what created existence?

[Grimmjow]

Allah (س) created the idea of creating things when it never existed before and created the idea of existence when it never had so how can the Creator of the idea of creating a creation be created when the idea never existed and nothing was ever created before He created it?