36 replies to this topic

[hamid_a]

Salam,

Please, read the following quote and simple words explain how accurate this quote is. If you choose to participate in polling if you choose 'False', please provide a reason why but if you happen to choose 'True' no reason is needed.

Quote

Now it’s clear to me. The atheist can’t prove there is no God and the religious can’t prove there is one. Leap of faith; that’s all there is. Since, it is leap of faith which determines one’s religion therefore it is redundant to debate in this topic.

Thank you and regards

[hamid_a]

Those that have polled false; what is your reason for doing so. Have you got any prove that God exist?

Edited by hamid_a, 08 November 2010 - 02:34 PM.

[Incognito]

My problem with all this is, what does a person believe is to be "proof" of something? When someone can clarify that, then discussions will run smoother

[Sukayna866]

Does it matter if its true/false?

What are you implying?

[thecontentedself]

the problem with the theist/atheist debate, is that atheists want material proof of an immaterial being, and then theists try to think of it as a materialistic problem, where it should be treated as a philosophical problem and an intellectual argument. with these people you have to put the empirical and the theological aside, and find a middle ground.

there's a reason why the Quran didn't bother much with the atheists: is there any doubt in His existence?

[hamid_a]

Incognito, on 08 November 2010 - 03:46 PM, said:

My problem with all this is, what does a person believe is to be "proof" of something? When someone can clarify that, then discussions will run smoother

Empirical or scientific evidence. Nothing theoretical or philosophical.

Sukayna866, on 08 November 2010 - 04:57 PM, said:

Does it matter if its true/false?

What are you implying?

Of course it matters. It's about doing homework. I think that most people don't take the time to explore between different ideas afterall this maybe our purpose of life; to find the truth and submit to one God. In my case, I did my research and concluded that between the theist and the atheist there is one difference and that's leap of faith. I have chosen the leap of faith. I'd like to believe that there is a God although I can't prove it with empirical or scientific evidence. Making a confession that the Muslims who try to debate atheists through science are wrong.

thecontentedself, on 08 November 2010 - 05:11 PM, said:

the problem with the theist/atheist debate, is that atheists want material proof of an immaterial being, and then theists try to think of it as a materialistic problem, where it should be treated as a philosophical problem and an intellectual argument. with these people you have to put the empirical and the theological aside, and find a middle ground.

there's a reason why the Quran didn't bother much with the atheists: is there any doubt in His existence?

I accept your reasoning behind the former part of your post. But I don't understand your reasoning behind saying "Quran didn't bother much with the atheists: is there any doubt in His existence". How do you know Quran didn't bother with atheists.

[Quisant]

hamid_a, on 08 November 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

I'd like to believe that there is a God although I can't prove it with empirical or scientific evidence.

It would be interesting to know why you feel the need to believe that there is a God.

And why chose one God instead of another.

Quote

Making a confession that the Muslims who try to debate atheists through science are wrong.

Why is that?

Wslm.
*

[Incognito]

Quote

Empirical or scientific evidence. Nothing theoretical or philosophical.

No such thing exists, it would actually contradict Islamic notion of God if it did.

[hamid_a]

Quisant, on 09 November 2010 - 08:39 AM, said:

It would be interesting to know why you feel the need to believe that there is a God.

And why chose one God instead of another.




Why is that?

Wslm.
*

I don't need to believe in God but I wanted to believe that's why I took a leap of faith, to believe in the unseen. Do you mean why I chose God of Islam instead of God of Christianity? Or do you mean why don't I believe in multiple Gods? God is the same for all religions. For me God of Christians and Muslims are same entity.

Quote

No such thing exists, it would actually contradict Islamic notion of God if it did.

@Quisant, Why? Because as my friend said in the above quotation no such thing exist. Not so much wrong as pointless when you know that all it take to be theist is a leap of faith.

[Quisant]

hamid_a, on 09 November 2010 - 02:08 PM, said:

I don't need to believe in God but I wanted to believe that's why I took a leap of faith, to believe in the unseen. Do you mean why I chose God of Islam instead of God of Christianity? Or do you mean why don't I believe in multiple Gods? God is the same for all religions. For me God of Christians and Muslims are same entity.



@Quisant, Why? Because as my friend said in the above quotation no such thing exist. Not so much wrong as pointless when you know that all it take to be theist is a leap of faith.

Your "Pursuit of Truth" is a leap of faith?
*

[hamid_a]

Quisant, on 10 November 2010 - 08:38 AM, said:

Your "Pursuit of Truth" is a leap of faith?
*

Yes, I searched from both sides (science and religion being the two sides) only to find out there is no way to reconcile the two. I tried to see who set in motion all there is but it's impossible. Allah says in the Quran he did, so I toke a leap of faith and truly believe in him. The truth as I said is no more than taking a step in either direction and continue moving.
How did you make the decision to become a Muslim or if you are not Muslim, how did you reach your truth if you don't mind?

Edited by hamid_a, 10 November 2010 - 10:18 AM.

[Sukayna866]

Quote

Of course it matters. It's about doing homework. I think that most people don't take the time to explore between different ideas afterall this maybe our purpose of life; to find the truth and submit to one God

I see. Sorry for the stupid question, I had misunderstood the quote in the beginning.

Quote

Your "Pursuit of Truth" is a leap of faith?

If one has done all his homework and still not reached a conclusion, what else is there to do?

hamid_a, on 09 November 2010 - 02:08 PM, said:

Quisant, Why? Because as my friend said in the above quotation no such thing exist. Not so much wrong as pointless when you know that all it take to be theist is a leap of faith.

Then I take it that the opposite is true too-that is, in regards to being an atheist.

hamid_a, on 10 November 2010 - 10:15 AM, said:

Yes, I searched from both sides (science and religion being the two sides) only to find out there is no way to reconcile the two. I tried to see who set in motion all there is but it's impossible. Allah says in the Quran he did, so I toke a leap of faith and truly believe in him. The truth as I said is no more than taking a step in either direction and continue moving.How did you make the decision to become a Muslim or if you are not Muslim, how did you reach your truth if you don't mind?

This is actually quite a frightening prospect...so that's all it comes down to? But surely even if we are to take this to be true, you can't feel belief by just taking a "leap of faith", surely you need something stronger to truly believe and sacrifice than just playing it safe.

I guess nobody has been able to prove God to another, but everyone goes through a journey of "finding" God, if that quest is genuine and God exists, then by Islamic terms, something guides us to that path.

Is such a belief permissible? Is it enough? To have conviction and peace of mind, and to gain God's satisfaction, I mean.

Edited by Sukayna866, 10 November 2010 - 11:01 AM.

[Quisant]

hamid_a, on 10 November 2010 - 10:15 AM, said:

Yes, I searched from both sides (science and religion being the two sides) only to find out there is no way to reconcile the two. I tried to see who set in motion all there is but it's impossible. Allah says in the Quran he did, so I toke a leap of faith and truly believe in him. The truth as I said is no more than taking a step in either direction and continue moving.

How do you know if the step you have taken points to the truth?
What if you are moving away from the truth?

Quote

How did you make the decision to become a Muslim or if you are not Muslim, how did you reach your truth if you don't mind?

Funny, I answered something similar on another thread.

My search for the truth rests on the belief  that the universe is not trying to fool us... that our senses are not lying to us..
What we observe is reality;  my truth always aims to match reality.

If a God exists then its purest expression is reality itself

The teachings of the faith are God’s revelation of the truth;
Science, the product of human reason, is the search for truth.
The “correct faith“, therefore, cannot be opposed to “good science” because “truth” is the object of both.  

Wslm.
*

[Sukayna866]

Quisant, on 10 November 2010 - 11:52 AM, said:

How do you know if the step you have taken points to the truth?
What if you are moving away from the truth?

You only have two options to believe or not to believe, if Islam is true and we choose lack of faith, then we will be punished. But if atheism is true, and we follow Islam, we have nothing to lose. Both ways, if you choose Islam, you'll be safe.

Your question still doesn't contradict what he's saying...

It doesn't feel right, I believe that, but it is....

Quisant, on 10 November 2010 - 11:52 AM, said:

My search for the truth rests on the belief  that the universe is not trying to fool us... that our senses are not lying to us..What we observe is reality;  my truth always aims to match reality.

That's powerful.

Edited by Sukayna866, 10 November 2010 - 01:07 PM.

[hamid_a]

Sukayna866, on 10 November 2010 - 10:59 AM, said:

If one has done all his homework and still not reached a conclusion, what else is there to do?

I don't really know.

Quote

Then I take it that the opposite is true too-that is, in regards to being an atheist.

Yes, I think so too.

Quote

This is actually quite a frightening prospect...so that's all it comes down to? But surely even if we are to take this to be true, you can't feel belief by just taking a "leap of faith", surely you need something stronger to truly believe and sacrifice than just playing it safe.

Sorry did you feel anything stronger than what I did? did you feel God?

Quote

I guess nobody has been able to prove God to another, but everyone goes through a journey of "finding" God, if that quest is genuine and God exists, then by Islamic terms, something guides us to that path.

I feel very comfortable knowing that my journey was genuine, pun intended. I remember a Q&A video on youtube where Richard Dawkin was answering a question by a Christian who claimed that he has felt the love of Jesus and Dawkins bluntly answered, "the human mind is extremely susceptible to hallucination".
Actually, I did a search and found the video.

Quote

Is such a belief permissible? Is it enough? To have conviction and peace of mind, and to gain God's satisfaction, I mean.

I don't know if anyone has an answer to that.

Quisant, on 10 November 2010 - 11:52 AM, said:

How do you know if the step you have taken points to the truth?
What if you are moving away from the truth?

Nobody knows whether the steps they are taking is taking them truth. For me truth is like this blog here

Quote

Funny, I answered something similar on another thread.

My search for the truth rests on the belief that the universe is not trying to fool us... that our senses are not lying to us..
What we observe is reality; my truth always aims to match reality.

If a God exists then its purest expression is reality itself

The teachings of the faith are God's revelation of the truth;
Science, the product of human reason, is the search for truth.
The "correct faith", therefore, cannot be opposed to "good science" because "truth" is the object of both.

Wslm.

Thank you for sharing your pursuit of truth. I found it very meaningful.

[Incognito]

Quote

@Quisant, Why? Because as my friend said in the above quotation no such thing exist. Not so much wrong as pointless when you know that all it take to be theist is a leap of faith.

Can you explain what you mean by "leap of faith" exactly?

[hamid_a]

Incognito, on 10 November 2010 - 03:01 PM, said:

Can you explain what you mean by "leap of faith" exactly?

Thanks for inquiring. Sorry I thought it explains itself pretty well. The definition of leap of faith I got from a google search was "The act of believing in something, despite lack of proof of its truth or existence", I think this is accurate enough.

May Allah protect you, amin.

[Gypsy]

I didn't vote because I don't really understand the options.

hamid_a, on 10 November 2010 - 10:15 AM, said:

How did you make the decision to become a Muslim or if you are not Muslim, how did you reach your truth if you don't mind?

For me it was quite simple. When I was very young (maybe 7 or 8), I attended a funeral. A lot of rituals and sad people. I wasn't sure why people have to die and leave. And when they die, where do they go?

Few years later, I found out about barzah and akhira. It's quite scary. Not everything in the world/universe can be proven, such as, death after life or life after death.

I am not interested to follow a religion that is wrapped nicely in science, logic and formula. I want to believe in the unbelievable.

Allah swt is the most powerful.

Perfection can only be attained by following the Holy Prophet and ahlul bayt.

[hamid_a]

Zareen, on 10 November 2010 - 10:32 PM, said:

I didn't vote because I don't really understand the options.


For me it was quite simple. When I was very young (maybe 7 or 8), I attended a funeral. A lot of rituals and sad people. I wasn't sure why people have to die and leave. And when they die, where do they go?

Few years later, I found out about barzah and akhira. It's quite scary. Not everything in the world/universe can be proven, such as, death after life or life after death.

I am not interested to follow a religion that is wrapped nicely in science, logic and formula. I want to believe in the unbelievable.

Allah swt is the most powerful.

Perfection can only be attained by following the Holy Prophet and ahlul bayt.

Salam sister, mashallah unlike me you have a rather unique way of finding your truth. Truly perfection means different things to different people. For a child, there can't be anything more perfect that eating sweets and playing games. To an athiest, perfection is something else. Although I believe in the same perfection as yours, I don't think that a Sunni is any less perfect in his believe than mine.

Thank you for sharing your search of truth. May Allah protect you.

[Sukayna866]

Zareen, on 10 November 2010 - 10:32 PM, said:

For me it was quite simple. When I was very young (maybe 7 or 8), I attended a funeral. A lot of rituals and sad people. I wasn't sure why people have to die and leave. And when they die, where do they go?

For me it's even simpler, its that moment when everything's still  and your mind's empty and you see things as they really are, then you think "gee, I exist" and you actually feel real. It all clicks at that one moment.  

Zareen, on 10 November 2010 - 10:32 PM, said:

Perfection can only be attained by following the Holy Prophet and ahlul bayt.

That's nice. The concept of perfection in Shia Islam is unlike the "perfection" found in any other religion or lifestyle.

Zareen, on 10 November 2010 - 10:32 PM, said:

I am not interested to follow a religion that is wrapped nicely in science, logic and formula. I want to believe in the unbelievable.

I'm confused. Is not Islam an appllication of logic and reason? If it is, shouldn't logic lead us to it, or is it logical to believe in the unbelievable? If that is the case, shouldn't everyone who follows logic be a believer?

[Quisant]

Sukayna866, on 10 November 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

You only have two options to believe or not to believe, if Islam is true and we choose lack of faith, then we will be punished. But if atheism is true, and we follow Islam, we have nothing to lose. Both ways, if you choose Islam, you'll be safe.

Your question still doesn't contradict what he's saying...

It doesn't feel right, I believe that, but it is....

That would make it a "pursuit of salvation" rather than "pursuit of truth"

Do you think the two are the same?
*

[Incognito]

hamid_a, on 10 November 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

Thanks for inquiring. Sorry I thought it explains itself pretty well. The definition of leap of faith I got from a google search was "The act of believing in something, despite lack of proof of its truth or existence", I think this is accurate enough.

May Allah protect you, amin.

By that definition, I guess we must also attribute morality as the same sort of thing.

[Sukayna866]

Quisant, on 11 November 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

That would make it a "pursuit of salvation" rather than "pursuit of truth"

Do you think the two are the same?
*

No, they aren't. So that would be Plan B.

Thank you for your reply. It was enlightening.

[Gypsy]

Sukayna866, on 11 November 2010 - 03:09 AM, said:

I'm confused. Is not Islam an appllication of logic and reason? If it is, shouldn't logic lead us to it, or is it logical to believe in the unbelievable? If that is the case, shouldn't everyone who follows logic be a believer?

To me personally, Islam has always been rational, logical, perfect and beautiful.

My comment was mostly geared towards things that are unseen (like barzah, akhira, Sidratul Muntaha, alam al dharr, rajat, the Day of Judgment ad all the miracles that defy science). These cannot be proven using human knowledge (science) or logic (as we know it). Knowledge about these matters came to us through revelation.

[Incognito]

Zareen, on 11 November 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

To me personally, Islam has always been rational, logical, perfect and beautiful.

My comment was mostly geared towards things that are unseen (like barzah, akhira, Sidratul Muntaha, alam al dharr, rajat, the Day of Judgment ad all the miracles that defy science). These cannot be proven using human knowledge (science) or logic (as we know it). Knowledge about these matters came to us through revelation.

I agree. Islam itself is a bit of a circular process, one which I do not think is invalid.

People say that we cannot know something, but this book says we can. It tells us what is right and wrong, with reason, and some cases, science we can find that this path is on the truth in par with everything else.