72 replies to this topic

[Gypsy]

Thanks for posting his credentials. I hope you understand that we need to set aside all his honorary degrees because those degrees do not establish someone in his area. His private religious tutoring is very basic and most of us have that. So his only real degree is from a secular institution. His degree is Bachelor of Arts in History.  

BTW, do you have a list of Islamic books, articles that have been published under his name? Also, do you know of any teaching or research positions that he has held in any Islamic institutions? By positions, I mean some academic work has been done by himself. Being an employer of someone or a director of an institution doesn't count since this position is generally in the management.

[princevisram]

Zareen, on 05 December 2010 - 12:31 AM, said:

Thanks for posting his credentials. I hope you understand that we need to set aside all his honorary degrees because those degrees do not establish someone in his area. His private religious tutoring is very basic and most of us have that. So his only real degree is from a secular institution. His degree is Bachelor of Arts in History.  

BTW, do you have a list of Islamic books, articles that have been published under his name? Also, do you know of any teaching or research positions that he has held in any Islamic institutions? By positions, I mean some academic work has been done by himself. Being an employer of someone or a director of an institution doesn't count since this position is generally in the management.

In my opinion, honorary degrees speak more than "educational" ones - the Beloved Prophet was not literate, yet he was known and his teachings flourished. I feel the way he is treated by society (his honorary degrees) does establish him in his field, and it is not necessarily "book-smart" which is needed. Having decent literacy is but a small portion to understanding a person, who they are and how society appreciates them for the work they do.

Anyways, I know he does have some articles and books he had written in his earlier years, there is one on Sufism and how it inspired him. I am, unfortunately unaware of the title of this work. I also think this particular work is in Arabic and not English.

Another reference I would like to make would be the Farmans. These are a great collection of speeches by him on his visits to Ismaili Jamats around the world. These Farmans are teachings which are on various topics. He has said so many Farmans, I don't think there is a particular count on how many he has made; but the majority (in my knowledge all) are available in written form.

Besides his Farmans, he is a very busy man, working to enhance the lives of others. His projects include:

AKA
Aga Khan Academies
AKAM
Aga Khan Agency for Microfinance
AKES
Aga Khan Education Services
AKF
Aga Khan Foundation
AKFED
Aga Khan Fund for Economic Development
AKHS
Aga Khan Health Services
AKPBS
Aga Khan Planning and Building Services
AKTC
Aga Khan Trust for Culture
AKU
Aga Khan University
FOCUS
Focus Humanitarian Assistance
UCA
University of Central Asia

He strives to hep not only Ismailis, but everyone including all Muslims and Non-Muslims. You can learn more about the Aga Khan Development Network here.

When Aga Khan III was the Imam of the Time, he  had published many books and articles which were known in their time. They are no longer known and read as they once were. Aga Khan III had once said that the next Imam will be an Imam which will match the Atomic Age; and this is obviously not reached through a life dedicated to "book-smart" education but rather "hands-on" education. As knowledge on Islam is available at large to the general public (as aposed to the older times), the Imam can accomplish much more by doing hands-on work to enhance the lives of others, knowing his true murids are learning of Islam by his institutions and by reading his Farmans. If he was to spend his life in book-smart education, he would have not had the time to accomplish the great projects he has to improve the qualities of the lives of humanity at large.

Once again, I don't think "positions" and "titles" are all that important as opposed to helping and bringing people to an understanding of the Islamic faith; and as seen by the outcome of his work, they obviously are not.

Please ask for clarification on parts of this post if needed, its kinda hard to encompass all the points in my head into writing

EDIT:

By the way you can read Aga Khan III's two most popular books online. They are:

India in Transition

and

The Memoirs of Aga Khan

i really recommend you read his Memoirs, that's where I posted the previous excerpt on this thread from..

Edited by princevisram, 05 December 2010 - 01:55 AM.

[princevisram]

Oh yah, also some of the Aga Khan IV's verbal works have been compiled into a popular book known as Where Hope Takes Root

[macisaac]

princevisram, on 04 December 2010 - 10:09 PM, said:

I have posted this once somewhere on this forum, but I will post it again. I just want to clarify much which has been misinterpreted and misleading, but the only one who can properly would be an Imam. Here is an extract from Aga Khan III's book "Memoirs of Aga Khan". This should clarify who the Aga Khan's are and their view on Islam and other religious matters. Anyway I recommend looking for answers from original sources.

Religion of My Ancestors

ISLAM

THE RELIGION OF MY ANCESTORS

H.R.H. PRINCE AGA KHAN III

(Extract from The Memoirs of the Aga Khan by H.H. The Aga Khan III)

Reading through this long, rambling document, something struck me about it.  This guy, a self-styled Imam, doesn't appear to know much about Islam beyond what he'd probably read in some old English-language books such as by Orientalists.  I seriously doubt he could even read Arabic for himself.

[real0019]

princevisram, on 05 December 2010 - 12:07 AM, said:

I don't see what the problem with helping non-Muslims is - after all they are a part of humanity. Maybe it can inspire them to learn more about Islam? Just a thought.

True, there isn't anything wrong with helping non-Muslims, unless it means harming Muslims.

[Gypsy]

princevisram, on 05 December 2010 - 01:37 AM, said:

In my opinion, honorary degrees speak more than "educational" ones - the Beloved Prophet was not literate, yet he was known and his teachings flourished. I feel the way he is treated by society (his honorary degrees) does establish him in his field, and it is not necessarily "book-smart" which is needed. Having decent literacy is but a small portion to understanding a person, who they are and how society appreciates them for the work they do.

Brother, you do not understand the academic system. The honorary degrees are “courtesy” degrees. They are given to presidents, artists, journalists, philanthropists and others. You cannot utilize these degrees to establish yourself in any area. It may give some one bragging  rights, but he/she has to be stupid to claim academic scholarship based on honorary degrees.

Your leader has only a BA in history from a secular institution. BA degree is one of the most common degree granted to anyone who attends a 4-year program at a University/College.

Why you are not answering my question? What academic qualification/scholarship does he have?

[Ya Baqiyatullah (aj)]

All Islamic sects need to be respected and people should have the freedom to choose their religion.

The main reason why I am not an Ismaili is due to their definition of leadership, they have seemed to mix the Sunni and Shia ideas up where they accept some/all of the Imams and then they have put their own caliphs in place just due to bloodline. Ithna Ashari belief is that Imamat doesnt necessarily have to run in bloodline, it was just the way Allah has wished it for Aale Muhammad, take the example of Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain both being Imams.

Other than that, I wish nothing but a salam alaykum to Ismaili brothers.

[macisaac]

Ya Baqiyatullah (aj), on 05 December 2010 - 01:08 PM, said:

All Islamic sects need to be respected and people should have the freedom to choose their religion.

The main reason why I am not an Ismaili is due to their definition of leadership, they have seemed to mix the Sunni and Shia ideas up where they accept some/all of the Imams and then they have put their own caliphs in place just due to bloodline. Ithna Ashari belief is that Imamat doesnt necessarily have to run in bloodline, it was just the way Allah has wished it for Aale Muhammad, take the example of Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain both being Imams.

Other than that, I wish nothing but a salam alaykum to Ismaili brothers.

While what you are saying might sound very nice and politically correct, you should realize it has little to do with what the Imams actually taught in regards to how we should view the deviated sects:




[ 34911 ] 8 Ü æÝí ( ÇáÎÕÇá ) Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Úä ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇááå ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá ÇáÃÔÚÑí ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÓäÇä ¡ Úä ÃÈí ãÇáß ÇáÌåäí ¡ ÞÇá : ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) íÞæá : ËáÇËÉ áÇ íßáãåã Çááå íæã ÇáÞíÇãÉ æáÇ íäÙÑ Åáíåã æáÇ íÒßíåã ¡ æáåã ÚÐÇÈ Ãáíã : ãä ÇÏÚì ÅãÇãÇ áíÓÊ ÅãÇãÊå ãä Çááå ¡ æãä ÌÍÏ ÅãÇãÇ ÅãÇãÊå ãä ÚäÏ Çááå ¡ æãä ÒÚã Ãä áåãÇ Ýí ÇáÇÓáÇã äÕíÈÇ .



8 – And in al-Khisal from his father from Sa`d b. `Abdullah from `Ali b. Isma`il al-Ash`ari from Muhammad b. Sinan from Abu Malik al-Juhani.  He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã saying: Three whom Allah will not speak to them on the day of the resurrection, and not look to them, and not purify them, and for them is a painful punishment: One who claims an imam whose Imamate is not from Allah, and one who denies an Imam whose Imamate is from Allah, and one who claims that (either of) them have a share in Islam.



[ 34937 ] 34 Ü æÚä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ãÍãÏ ¡ Úä ãÚáì ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÏÇæÏ ÇáãÓÊÑÞ ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ãíãæä ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí íÚÝæÑ ¡ ÞÇá : ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) íÞæá : ËáÇËÉ áÇ íßáãåã Çááå íæã ÇáÞíÇãÉ ¡ æáÇ íÒßøíåã ¡ æáåã ÚÐÇÈ Ãáíã : ãä ÇÏÚì ÅãÇãÉ ãä Çááå áíÓÊ áå ¡ æãä ÌÍÏ ÅãÇãÇ ãä Çááå ¡ æãä ÒÚã Ãä áåãÇ Ýí ÇáÇÓáÇã äÕíÈÇ .


34 – And from Muhammad b. Ya`qub (in al-Kafi) from al-Husayn b. Muhammad from Mu`alla from Abu Dawud al-Mustariqq from `Ali b. Maymun from Ibn Abi Ya`fur.  He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã saying: Three whom Allah will not speak to them on the day of the resurrection nor purify them, and for them is a painful punishment: One who claims Imamate from Allah (and) it is not for him, and one who denies an Imam from Allah, and one who claims that (either of) them have a share in Islam.


[ 34943 ] 40 Ü ÓÚíÏ Èä åÈÉ Çááå ÇáÑÇæäÏí Ýí ( ÇáÎÑÇÆÌ æÇáÌÑÇÆÍ ) Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ãØåÑ ¡ ÞÇá : ßÊÈ ÈÚÖ ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ Åáì ÃÈí ãÍãÏ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) íÓÃáå Úãä æÞÝ Úáì ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ãæÓì ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ¡ ÝßÊÈ : áÇ ÊÊÑÍã Úáì Úãß æÊÈÑà ãäå ÃäÇ Åáì Çááå ãäå ÈÑíÁ ¡ ÝáÇ ÊÊæáåã ¡ æáÇ ÊÚÏ ãÑÖÇåã ¡ æáÇ ÊÔåÏ ÌäÇÆÒåã ¡ æáÇ ÊÕá Úáì ÃÍÏ ãäåã ãÇÊ ÃÈÏÇ ¡ ãä ÌÍÏ ÅãÇãÇ ãä Çááå Ãæ ÒÇÏ ÅãÇãÇ áíÓÊ ÅãÇãÊå ãä Çááå ßÇä ßãä ÞÇá : ( Åä Çááå ËÇáË ËáËÉ ) Åä ÇáÌÇÍÏ ÃãÑ ÂÎÑäÇ ÌÇÍÏ ÃãÑ ÃæáäÇ . . . ÇáÍÏíË .


40 – Sa`id b. Hibatullah ar-Rawandi in al-Khara’ij wa ‘l-Jara’ih from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Mutahhar.  He said: One of our companions wrote to Abu Muhammad Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã asking him about waqf upon Abu ‘l-Hasan Musa Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã (waqf: stopping.  i.e. one who believed that Imam Musa al-Kadhim Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was the Qa’im and denied the Imamate of his son Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã).  So he wrote: Do not ask for mercy upon your uncle and be quit of him (i.e. renounce him). To Allah I am quit of him.  So do not befriend them, and do not visit their sick, and do not witness their funerals, and do no pray upon one who dies from them ever.  Whoever denies an Imam from Allah or adds an Imam whose Imamate is not from Allah is as one who said “Verily Allah is a third of three” (5:73).  Verily a denier of the affair (or, command) of the last of us is a denier of the affair of the first of us – (al-hadith)

[Ya Baqiyatullah (aj)]

The first two hadith are irrelevant since that is God's decision, my message is to respect all faiths just like Rasool (saw) did. Do you think if I posted these hadith to new believers who were contemplating to join Islam and hadnt made up their mind on the Sunni/Shia split, they would attract themselves to Shia Islam? No, they would find us very narrow minded, knowledge is best utilised when it is used in the right way and the right time, some knowledge maybe damaging at one time of your life, but helpful at the other.

17Ü ÇáÅãÇãõ ÇáÕøÇÏÞõ (Úóáóíåö ÇáøÓóáÇãõ) Ü áÚÈÏ ÇáÃÚáì Ü: íÇ ÚÈÏó ÇáÃÚáóì ... ÝóÃÞÑöÆåõãõ ÇáÓáÇãó æÑóÍãóÉó Çááøåþö Ü íóÚäöí ÇáÔöøíÚóÉó Ü æÞõá: ÞÇáó áóßõã: ÑóÍöãó Çááøåþõ ÚóÈÏÇð ÇÓÊóÌóÑóø ãóæóÏóøÉó ÇáäÇÓö Åáì äÝÓöåö æÅáóíäÇ ¡ ÈÃä íõÙåöÑó áóåõã ãÇ íóÚÑöÝõæäó æíóßõÝóø Úóäåõã ãÇ íõäßöÑõæäó.

17– Imam al-Sadiq said, ‘O `Aabd al-A`ala, … give my greetings of peace and the mercy of Allah to my Shi`aa, and tell them: ‘Allah has mercy on the servant who incites love in the people towards himself and towards us [when attracting them towards Islam], by displaying to them that which they already like, and keeping from them that which they would reject.’[Bihar al-Anwar, v. 2, p. 77, no. 62]

ÇáÅãÇãõ Úáíñø (Úóáóíåö ÇáøÓóáÇãõ) : ÅäóøãÇ ÃäÊõã ÅÎúæÇäñ Úáì Ïöíäö Çááøåþö ¡ ãÇ ÝóÑøÞó Èóíäóßõã ÅáøÇ ÎõÈúËõ ÇáÓóøÑÇÆÑö ¡ æÓõæÁõ ÇáÖóøãÇÆÑö ¡ ÝáÇ ÊóæóÇÒóÑæäó (ÊÃÒöÑæä) æáÇ ÊóäóÇÕóÍæäó ¡ æáÇ ÊóÈóÇÐóáæäó æáÇ ÊóæóÇÏøæäó.

8– Imam Ali said, ‘Verily you are brothers in the religion of Allah, nothing has separated you except ill natures and bad consciences, consequently you do not bear the burdens of each other, nor do you advise each other, nor spend on each other, nor love each other.’[Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 113]

5Ü ÑÓæáõ Çááåöþö (Õóáóøíó Çááåõ Úóáóíåö æó Âáöåö): ÃáÇ ÇõÎÈöÑõßã ÈöÃÝÖáó ãöä ÏóÑóÌóÉö ÇáÕöøíÇãö æÇáÕóøáÇÉö æÇáÕóøÏóÞÉö ¿ ÅÕáÇÍõ ÐÇÊö ÇáÈóíäöº ÝÅäø ÝÓÇÏó ÐÇÊö ÇáÈóíäö åöí ÇáÍÇáöÞÉõ.

5– The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘Shall I inform you of something that holds a higher status than fasting, praying and giving charity? Making peace between people, for verily sowing dissention between people is indeed calamitous.’[Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 5480]

Do you realise how disunited the ummah is today? Do you realise how even the belief of believing in one God in an Abrahamic faith is rare? Do you know it hurts the Imam to see how disunited the ummah is today? However, he is the only one who can unite us, so why not encourage unity among the ummah and put aside our differences and pray for the faraj. I have sincere belief in Allah that if He wishes He can guide whomsoever He wishes, however He chooses, my mouth is only one means, I am only one tool, one servant.

This is my opinion anyway, since I imagine if our Imam was out of ghaybah today, it would be his actions that would make people revert, not his debating skills.

And as for the last hadith you quoted, that applies in general to all kuffar and the Quranic verse that warns not to befriend them, again this needs to be understood with context and reason.

[Ismailite]

Zareen, on 05 December 2010 - 12:31 AM, said:

Thanks for posting his credentials. I hope you understand that we need to set aside all his honorary degrees because those degrees do not establish someone in his area. His private religious tutoring is very basic and most of us have that. So his only real degree is from a secular institution. His degree is Bachelor of Arts in History.  

BTW, do you have a list of Islamic books, articles that have been published under his name? Also, do you know of any teaching or research positions that he has held in any Islamic institutions? By positions, I mean some academic work has been done by himself. Being an employer of someone or a director of an institution doesn't count since this position is generally in the management.

Dear Zareen

For Isma'ilis, the Aga Khan is the hereditary Imam - appointed via Nass of the previous Imams.  The Aga Khan's religious knowledge does not come from formal education - from universities or Islamic learning institutions.  His knowledge ('ilm) is inherited from the previous Imams.  The Aga Khan does not require any other formal qualifications - such as the case of the Ayatullahs of Twelver Shiism or the Ulema of Sunni Islam.

Most of your later Imams were under house arrest and people even questioned their own lack of "formal" education.

Princevisram's point still stands - the Aga Khan displays his knowlege of Islam through his great words and deeds.  And anyone with an eye on the world history has seen the great works of the Aga Khan and his late grandfather.

And to the other comment that someone made on the Aga Khan's memoirs - about this being basic knowledge.  Please note that the Aga Khan wrote his Memoirs for the Christian world and the non-Muslim audiences - so his articulation has to be basic.  As you may know, the Imams speak to the people based on the capacity of their 'aql.   However, there are some very subtle and important matters in spirituality that this chapter in the Memoirs contains - they are there for those who have the eyes to see them.

[princevisram]

Ya Baqiyatullah (aj), on 05 December 2010 - 01:08 PM, said:

All Islamic sects need to be respected and people should have the freedom to choose their religion.

The main reason why I am not an Ismaili is due to their definition of leadership, they have seemed to mix the Sunni and Shia ideas up where they accept some/all of the Imams and then they have put their own caliphs in place just due to bloodline. Ithna Ashari belief is that Imamat doesnt necessarily have to run in bloodline, it was just the way Allah has wished it for Aale Muhammad, take the example of Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain both being Imams.

Other than that, I wish nothing but a salam alaykum to Ismaili brothers.

Wa Alaykum-us-Salam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh!! At times I feel I should be less active in writing and sharing my beliefs on ShiaChat but people like you help me realize that not everyone here is here to criticize. I wish more people were like you!

[princevisram]

Ismailite, on 06 December 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

Dear Zareen

For Isma'ilis, the Aga Khan is the hereditary Imam - appointed via Nass of the previous Imams.  The Aga Khan's religious knowledge does not come from formal education - from universities or Islamic learning institutions.  His knowledge ('ilm) is inherited from the previous Imams.  The Aga Khan does not require any other formal qualifications - such as the case of the Ayatullahs of Twelver Shiism or the Ulema of Sunni Islam.

Most of your later Imams were under house arrest and people even questioned their own lack of "formal" education.

Princevisram's point still stands - the Aga Khan displays his knowlege of Islam through his great words and deeds.  And anyone with an eye on the world history has seen the great works of the Aga Khan and his late grandfather.

And to the other comment that someone made on the Aga Khan's memoirs - about this being basic knowledge.  Please note that the Aga Khan wrote his Memoirs for the Christian world and the non-Muslim audiences - so his articulation has to be basic.  As you may know, the Imams speak to the people based on the capacity of their 'aql.   However, there are some very subtle and important matters in spirituality that this chapter in the Memoirs contains - they are there for those who have the eyes to see them.

Thank you for helping me put my jumbled up words into proper phrases that can be understood at  a more formal level; this one response should clear up much confusion.

I would also like to add one thing: the one person who had mentioned something about the Aga Khan III, saying "...I seriously doubt he could even read Arabic for himself" was absolutely incorrect. He was educated into the languages Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Hindi, English, French and German. He was well known to speak Arabic especially, and had even wrote the Ismaili main prayer himself in Arabic. He also emphasized us to learn Arabic and read the Qu'ran-e-Sharif in the original language to further gain benefit. :

“The most important problem by far for us today is to create students who are capable of going back and of reading these texts in Arabic, of reading them in Persian, of reading them in Urdu, of reading them in Gujrati, of reading them in any language in which they have been written. More than ever today we must be able to publish authoritative documents based on primary sources. There is no point in us rereading and rereading and rereading third hand or fourth hand documents. We can only get tied up in other peoples’ interpretations, get further and further away from the original concept and thoroughly muddle and cloud what should be the truth.”

He also shows appreciation to all Muslims, and taught us to do the same:

"Ismailis have always believed and have been taught in each generation by their Imams that they hold the rightful interpretation of the succession to the Holy Prophet, but that is no reason why other Muslims, who believe differently, should not be accepted as brothers in Islam and dear in and prayed for and never publicly or privately condemned, leave alone abused.

I hope that in these days when the Muslims have told together in view of all the dangers, external and internal, from all quarters, I hope and pray that Ismailis may show their true Islamic charity in thought and prayer for the benefit and happiness of all Muslims, men, women and children of all sects."

Platinum Jubilee Message to the Ismailis
Cairo, February 20, 1955

Edited by princevisram, 07 December 2010 - 12:32 AM.

[nurulali]

salam to you brothers...

i suggest read more kitab.. sirah.. and when ismailiah come.. who made it....i mean.. to love someone.. must know someone first....(i agree with imamah more actually,read them and know them first- then decide) sorry for interupting.... my knowledge is by far weak than you all.. because what we decide is where we will go hereafter....

[princevisram]

nurulali, on 07 December 2010 - 02:04 AM, said:

salam to you brothers...

i suggest read more kitab.. sirah.. and when ismailiah come.. who made it....i mean.. to love someone.. must know someone first....(i agree with imamah more actually,read them and know them first- then decide) sorry for interupting.... my knowledge is by far weak than you all.. because what we decide is where we will go hereafter....

Walaikum Salam,
Dear brother Nurulai,

Do not be scared for interpreting the Qur'an or deciding which sect to belong to in fear of the hearafter. If we misunderstand Allah's Word, he will surely forgive us.

“O God! If I worship You for fear of hell, burn me in hell, and if I worship You in hope of paradise, exclude me from paradise. But if I worship You for your own sake, grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.” - Rabia

"This freedom of interpretation is a generosity which the Qur'an confers upon all believers, uniting them in the conviction that All-Merciful Allah will forgive them if they err in their sincere attempts to understand His word." -- Aga Khan IV (The Ismaili Centre, London, October 19, 2003)

Also, do not feel you have any less knowledge than anyone else on this forum. We are all equal in the eyes of Allah, and Allah will not care whether we will have a Maters Degree in every subject of Islam. He will love us and care for us endlessly just for the sake of us being Muslims. Aren't we lucky?

Edited by princevisram, 07 December 2010 - 08:04 AM.

[Gypsy]

Ismailite, on 06 December 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

The Aga Khan's religious knowledge does not come from formal education - from universities or Islamic learning institutions.  His knowledge ('ilm) is inherited from the previous Imams.  The Aga Khan does not require any other formal qualifications

You are avoiding the issue by stating something that is blatantly false and unprovable. How do someone inherit religious knowledge? Can you give few samples from his religious work so we can see the “knowledge” that he inherited from his predecessor.

Ismailite, on 06 December 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

Most of your later Imams were under house arrest and people even questioned their own lack of "formal" education.

We can discuss this later.

Ismailite, on 06 December 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

Princevisram's point still stands - the Aga Khan displays his knowlege of Islam through his great words and deeds.  And anyone with an eye on the world history has seen the great works of the Aga Khan and his late grandfather.

He is a very rich man. Of course we know his work in the Ismaili community, his philanthropy and  awards granted to him. I don't know how someone is knowledgeable if he/she does charity or philanthropy  work. At most you can say they are interested to see their community proper (that is the cause he is working for, right). This, in no way establish his “knowledge” in the religious area or Ismaili sect.

Ismailite, on 06 December 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

And to the other comment that someone made on the Aga Khan's memoirs - about this being basic knowledge.  Please note that the Aga Khan wrote his Memoirs for the Christian world and the non-Muslim audiences - so his articulation has to be basic.  As you may know, the Imams speak to the people based on the capacity of their 'aql.   However, there are some very subtle and important matters in spirituality that this chapter in the Memoirs contains - they are there for those who have the eyes to see them.

A lot of people write books. Memoirs are not a big deal.  A memoir is simply your story. Memoirs don't get reviewed or criticized. They don't fall under academic scholarship. They are interesting to read but they are not spiritual books.

It appears that your Ismaili leader (the Aga Khan) does not posses any religious credentials to lead an Islamic community. Furthermore, he doesn't even have a single Islamic work to establish himself in the Islamic area. On top of this, he has not even produced a single original Ismaili work to be considered an expert of your sect.

[princevisram]

Zareen, on 07 December 2010 - 08:18 PM, said:

You are avoiding the issue by stating something that is blatantly false and unprovable. How do someone inherit religious knowledge? Can you give few samples from his religious work so we can see the “knowledge” that he inherited from his predecessor.



We can discuss this later.


He is a very rich man. Of course we know his work in the Ismaili community, his philanthropy and  awards granted to him. I don't know how someone is knowledgeable if he/she does charity or philanthropy  work. At most you can say they are interested to see their community proper (that is the cause he is working for, right). This, in no way establish his “knowledge” in the religious area or Ismaili sect.


A lot of people write books. Memoirs are not a big deal.  A memoir is simply your story. Memoirs don't get reviewed or criticized. They don't fall under academic scholarship. They are interesting to read but they are not spiritual books.

It appears that your Ismaili leader (the Aga Khan) does not posses any religious credentials to lead an Islamic community. Furthermore, he doesn't even have a single Islamic work to establish himself in the Islamic area. On top of this, he has not even produced a single original Ismaili work to be considered an expert of your sect.

Okay this is wrong. There is a difference between trying to learn and trying to critisize. You are obviously just critisizing and trying to prove something. Whatever it is you are trying to prove, it won't work. If your trying to prove we are not Muslims, I do not see what you will gain. I do not see what you are gaining by trying to criticize and make mockery of the Nizari Ismailis. It is people like you, as i mentioned earlier, who make me not want to be a part of the Shia Chat website... Why? You ask me to share - and when i do - you make mockery out of it. What's the point of sharing?

When you asked which degrees he had, I listed them. Instead of saying, "Oh that is interesting" you took it to "Oh that's it?"

When I shared the extract from The Memoirs of Aga Khan, instead of saying "That was a nice read" or at least "Thanks for sharing" people here say "Besides the lavishness and lack of religiosity on the part of this family" or "A lot of people write books. Memoirs are not a big deal."

If you don't understand what I am saying, I am trying to explain the hypocrisy in everyones mouth. I share for people to learn and not to criticize.

I think the only solution is to stop sharing.

And then people wonder why our religion is so secretive.

Yes, before you mention rudely again, I have not responded these questions. Please don't expect me to answer your foolish questions, especially when you can't even treat me as your brother! It's just common curtesy to respect others' beliefs - I am in no way trying to enforce them upon you. People here write as if they are "all that" and "educated".. I honestly could care less if you have six degrees from Harvard or you come from the slums of Bombay. Like I said earlier - we are all equal in Allahs eyes, and we also must act this way. I don't feel any particular sect in Islam is "wrong", I can respect everyone's beliefs. The only problem I am having here is the lack of respect for one another on this forum. I am taking a World Religions class and through this have learned to respect others' beliefs even if I don't agree with them. Am I ever thankful to Allah that I'm growing up in a country of open-mindedness, a place where I can practice pluralism and tolerance!

Edited by princevisram, 08 December 2010 - 01:24 AM.

[Gypsy]

princevisram, on 08 December 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

Okay this is wrong. There is a difference between trying to learn and trying to critisize. You are obviously just critisizing and trying to prove something. Whatever it is you are trying to prove, it won't work.

I don't see why you should be angry. This is a legitimate question. You guys (Ismailis) keep on bragging about how you are the only Islamic sect with a present (hazir) Imam who can reinterpret Islam as he sees fit to the modern time and the community need.

I disagree with you because I don't think he is qualified to interpret Islamic laws or even matters  of  your sect (Ismail-ism). The reason I said that because he doesn't posses any kind or formal qualifications (in the field) or have shown any academic scholarship in the area.

Fine, if you don't want to evaluate his qualification and academic scholarship according to the Islamic academic standard, then let's line him up beside Rabbi Jonathan Sacks http://en.wikipedia..../Jonathan_Sacks (I picked him randomly from the wiki).

Do you see these little sections about his education, positions previously held and works by the Rabbi (in the wikipedia)?

princevisram, on 08 December 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

If your trying to prove we are not Muslims, I do not see what you will gain.

I am not. If you say you are a Muslim, then you are one (according to your testimony).

princevisram, on 08 December 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

I do not see what you are gaining by trying to criticize and make mockery of the Nizari Ismailis. It is people like you, as i mentioned earlier, who make me not want to be a part of the Shia Chat website... Why? You ask me to share - and when i do - you make mockery out of it. What's the point of sharing?

I am not making a mockery of Nizari Ismailis. My questions were legitimate. I pointed out a few flaws based on how you (& your friends) are defending his religious credentials/qualifications and his knowledge. You need to understand, that my questions were not about his social, community, his philanthropy or his charity work (in which he is a patron).

I admit that the environment on ShiaChat can sometimes be harsh and hostile. That is just the way the board is. Having spirited debate/discussion is fine (I think).

princevisram, on 08 December 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

When you asked which degrees he had, I listed them. Instead of saying, "Oh that is interesting" you took it to "Oh that's it?"

Honorary degree is not always a sign of academic scholarship.  W Bush (had a BA in history) was also granted an honorary degree from Yale, but everyone know that he is a semi-illiterate.

Though, I don't think you got my point about honorary degrees being a “courtesy”.

princevisram, on 08 December 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

When I shared the extract from The Memoirs of Aga Khan, instead of saying "That was a nice read" or at least "Thanks for sharing" people here say "Besides the lavishness and lack of religiosity on the part of this family" or "A lot of people write books. Memoirs are not a big deal."

I'll leave a few words on what memoirs are (taken from here http://inkspell.home...com/memoir.html)

Quote

Definition of Memoir: A memoir is a piece of autobiographical writing, usually shorter in nature than a comprehensive autobiography. The memoir, especially as it is being used in publishing today, often tries to capture certain highlights or meaningful moments in one's past, often including a contemplation of the meaning of that event at the time of the writing of the memoir. The memoir may be more emotional and concerned with capturing particular scenes, or a series of events, rather than documenting every fact of a person's life

Most people would not put memoirs as pure academic work because they are more like personal diaries. I hope you understand the difference between academic work and personal stories.

princevisram, on 08 December 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

If you don't understand what I am saying, I am trying to explain the hypocrisy in everyones mouth. I share for people to learn and not to criticize.

I think the only solution is to stop sharing.

And then people wonder why our religion is so secretive.

Yes, before you mention rudely again, I have not responded these questions. Please don't expect me to answer your foolish questions, especially when you can't even treat me as your brother! It's just common curtesy to respect others' beliefs - I am in no way trying to enforce them upon you. People here write as if they are "all that" and "educated".. I honestly could care less if you have six degrees from Harvard or you come from the slums of Bombay. Like I said earlier - we are all equal in Allahs eyes, and we also must act this way. I don't feel any particular sect in Islam is "wrong", I can respect everyone's beliefs. The only problem I am having here is the lack of respect for one another on this forum. I am taking a World Religions class and through this have learned to respect others' beliefs even if I don't agree with them. Am I ever thankful to Allah that I'm growing up in a country of open-mindedness, a place where I can practice pluralism and tolerance!

Sharing is very different from bragging. Isn't that what you were doing when you slam us with all the honorary degrees that he received?

Very Strange you are now saying that we are all equal in the sight of God. Please remember      this the next time you are promoting Aga Khan as someone special because of his hereditary.

I am also not interested  arguing with someone who can only present me with PR materials.

[princevisram]

Zareen, on 08 December 2010 - 03:18 PM, said:

Sharing is very different from bragging. Isn't that what you were doing when you slam us with all the honorary degrees that he received?

Very Strange you are now saying that we are all equal in the sight of God. Please remember this the next time you are promoting Aga Khan as someone special because of his hereditary.

I am also not interested  arguing with someone who can only present me with PR materials.

When you ask, I provide, then you blame me? Again, criticism for sharing! I just don't understand... I was in no way trying to promote the Aga Khan.. Who brought him up in this thread first and how? Criticism. You asked for degrees and I provided what I knew, still criticism.

Earlier mentioned, someone said your Imams were under housearrest or something. I honestly couldn't care less why. I respect that you have a religion and own beliefs. I don't care further than that - I am not going to question why they were, because I honestly know it was probably not true and just negative propagation. I don't believe most of the stuff I read online for this reason; the majority is false.  

You consider us Muslims, you consider us your brothers, yet you speak so rude and question our faith. Besides, what is the purpose of wanting to know which degrees he has? Is it not to try and prove something?

If you consider what I share about what I know bragging, then please do not expect to hear my answers to your questions on this thread once again. Your questions are legitimate, but whatever I reply someone turns into a indirect criticism statement - and I am sure you can see that yourself.

Zareen, on 08 December 2010 - 03:18 PM, said:

You guys (Ismailis) keep on bragging about how you are the only Islamic sect with a present (hazir) Imam who can reinterpret Islam as he sees fit to the modern time and the community need.

I disagree with you because I don't think he is qualified to interpret Islamic laws or even matters of your sect (Ismail-ism). The reason I said that because he doesn't posses any kind or formal qualifications (in the field) or have shown any academic scholarship in the area.

Have you ever seen me say anywhere on this forum that we are the only sect which has a living Imam? I have never mentioned such. He does interpret many things to arrange things in the lives of his murids, but has not stopped educating us about Islam. When the Imam teaches us something, gives a farman, do we ignore it? Did we ignore the teachings of the first to fifth Imam? No. Will we now? No.

What do you expect him to learn? He has accomplished so much more by not spending 73 years of his life in school. He is always busy. There is never a time when he has free time. He does not go on vacation. He spends his time in offices working to help others launching his projects to start. I think he only got a degree from a university just to satisfy people who question. He would not have needed to.  Were the early Imams educated with degrees from universities? No. They knew how to preach though, didn't they. They had knowledge. That knowledge is a gift given to the Imam from God.

Sultan Muhammad Shah became the Imam and started delivering farmans at the age of eight, he did not need 73 years of schooling to carry his knowledge at that age. He was gifted with the same Noor and Ilm from Allah as in that in Ali and Hussayn.

[gilgamesh]

False,Badr bagh in Mumbai opnely accepts converts.

why do Twelvers get angry anyitime people dotn acceptm 12erism?

[courage]

ismalis are NOT muislims

[princevisram]

courage, on 27 December 2010 - 06:58 AM, said:

ismalis are NOT muislims

If I say "la ilaha illa Allah muhammad rasul Allah" with my heart, I AM a Muslim. Who are you to say who's Muslim and who isn't? No one but Allah has the right to judge and If Allah doesn't judge us until the day we die, who are you to?

Edited by princevisram, 27 December 2010 - 03:40 PM.

[Glow]

Nizari, on 26 January 2011 - 02:39 AM, said:

The Holy Prophet Muhammad was himself an Arabian businessman.

Allah (swt) has created us in multitudes of tribes and nations, including Europeans, so we may recognize each other.

A TRUE Imam Mahdi(as) who lives in the clouds and or is a caveman, and who does not lead mankind. Bravo!

I don't personally think Allah (swt) is selfish in the sense of leaving mankind without any sort of divine guidance for thousand(s) of years.

Perhaps a reality check would help you guys...  

He has left better guidance then Aga Khan

He has left the Quran and the Sunnah/Ahlul Bayat


Why would he leave a form of guidance (or actually Misguidance) that contradicts the Quran and/or the teachings of the Alul bayat /Sunnah??

You do realize its not the first time people claimed such things (to be 'imams' that are divinely guided) and then tried to change up what was obligatory and what was not. There was a famous (albet more successful) man then the Aga Khan who did the same in history soon after the prophets death.

You want to know what his fate was

The Muslims tolerated him, until a certain point, then tried to negotiate with him in the sense of making understand that what he is doing is wrong and is actually an insult to islam and that he should step down, then when didn't work......They completely annihilated that Munafiq sect. And FYI, this was not like the Aga Khanis today, these guys become such a force(monetarily, number of follwer wise and military capacity wise)  that the majority of the Islamic army had to be sent to deal with them.


So when people talk about Aga Khan, they forget that as history repeats itself and we already have examples of people who tried this kind of stuff.

Go read the hadith about what is said on those individuals who believe they have the right to add laws or take away laws from  the Quran

[Gypsy]

Please go here for discussion about the Aga Khan and his family http://www.shiachat....and-his-family/