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[mehdi soldier]

Drug experts say alcohol worse than crack or heroin


By Kate Kelland

LONDON | Mon Nov 1, 2010 10:23am EDT

LONDON (Reuters) - Alcohol is a more dangerous drug than both crack and heroin when the combined harms to the user and to others are assessed, British scientists said Monday.

Presenting a new scale of drug harm that rates the damage to users themselves and to wider society, the scientists rated alcohol the most harmful overall and almost three times as harmful as cocaine or tobacco.

According to the scale, devised by a group of scientists including Britain's Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs (ISCD) and an expert adviser to the European Monitoring Center for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA), heroin and crack cocaine rank as the second and third most harmful drugs.

Ecstasy is only an eighth as harmful as alcohol, according to the scientists' analysis.

Professor David Nutt, chairman of the ISCD, whose work was published in the Lancet medical journal, said the findings showed that "aggressively targeting alcohol harms is a valid and necessary public health strategy."

He said they also showed that current drug classification systems had little relation to the evidence of harm.

Alcohol and tobacco are legal for adults in Britain and many other countries, while drugs such as ecstasy and cannabis and LSD are often illegal and carry the threat of prison sentences.

"It is intriguing to note that the two legal drugs assessed -- alcohol and tobacco -- score in the upper segment of the ranking scale, indicating that legal drugs cause at least as much harm as do illegal substances," Nutt, who was formerly head of the influential British Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD), said in a statement about the study.

Nutt was forced to quit the ACMD a year ago after publicly criticizing ministers for ignoring scientific advice suggesting cannabis was less harmful than alcohol.

The World Health Organization estimates that risks linked to alcohol cause 2.5 million deaths a year from heart and liver disease, road accidents, suicides and cancer -- accounting for 3.8 percent of all deaths. It is the third leading risk factor for premature death and disabilities worldwide.

In an effort to offer a guide to policy makers in health, policing, and social care, Nutt's team rated drugs using a technique called multicriteria decision analysis (MCDA) which assessed damage according to nine criteria on harm to the user and seven criteria on harm to others.

Harms to the user included things such as drug-specific or drug-related death, damage to health, drug dependence and loss of relationships, while harms to others included crime, environmental damage, family conflict, international damage, economic cost, and damage to community cohesion.

Drugs were then scored out of 100, with 100 given to the most harmful drug and zero indicating no harm at all.

The scientists found alcohol was most harmful, with a score of 72, followed by heroin with 55 and crack with 54.

Among some of the other drugs assessed were crystal meth (33), cocaine (27), tobacco (26), amphetamine or speed (23), cannabis (20), benzodiazepines, such as Valium (15), ketamine (15), methadone (14), mephedrone (13), ecstasy (9), anabolic steroids (9), LSD (7) and magic mushrooms (5).


http://www.reuters.c...E6A000O20101101

[nemesis]

  


i'm no expert in christian scripture , but i found the following , it seems like it is not a Sin for Christians to drink but to drink in moderation as not to get drunk . and the scriptures only talk about Wine and no other alcohol , as wine is made from grapes and grapes are part of the biblical fruits.

=======================================

Genesis 27:25 - So he said, "Bring it to me, and I will eat of my son's game, that I may bless you." And he brought it to him, and he ate; he also brought him wine and he drank.

Proverbs 23:20-21 - Do not be with heavy drinkers of wine, Or with gluttonous eaters of meat; For the heavy drinker and the glutton will come to poverty, And drowsiness will clothe one with rags.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 - Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.

Psalm 103:13-14 - He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate— bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart.

=======================================



Grapes

Grapes, along with the wine and raisins that are made from them, are mentioned throughout The Bible, all the way from Genesis to Revelation. Along with The Olive Tree and The Fig Tree, grape vines were often used as symbols of the fertility of the Promised Land of Israel.

Grapes

    * Noah (see The Flood) is the first recorded human to grow grapes (Genesis 9:20). In a temporary lapse of his otherwise highly righteous character (Genesis 6:9), he is also the first recorded human to become drunk (some believe that it was not intentional, but that he had simply misjudged the alcohol content), from the wine that he made from his vineyard (Genesis 9:21).

    * Existing vineyards awaited the Israelites when they crossed the Jordan into the Promised Land. The scouts sent out by Moses returned from the Valley of Eshcol with huge clusters of grapes (Numbers 13:23).

    * Raisins, which are simply dried grapes, were widely used, often stored or carried as pressed cakes e.g. 1 Samuel 25:18 and 30:12, 2 Samuel 16:1, 1 Chronicles 12:40.

    * A drink offering of wine was presented (see Levites) with the daily sacrifice (Exodus 29:40-41), with the offering of the firstfruits (Leviticus 23:13), and with various other sacrifices (Numbers 15:5,7,10). Wine was used at the Passover, and Jesus Christ used it with unleavened bread at "The Last Supper" as symbols of His body and blood. (Matthew 26:26-29). He then said that, "I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." (Matthew 26:29 RSV) (see The Kingdom of God)

    * The first recorded miracle of Jesus Christ (see Miracles Of Jesus Christ), as encouraged by His mother Mary, was the turning of water into wine at a wedding in Cana in Galilee. (John 2:1-11)

    * Jesus Christ used the grape vine in His teachings about the church:

      "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples." (John 15:1-8 RSV)


N

[Son of Placid]

Professor David Nutt

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/David_Nutt

Quote

In February 2009 he was criticised by Home Secretary Jacqui Smith for stating in the paper that the drug ecstasy – a class A drug along with heroin and cocaine – was statistically no more dangerous than an addiction to horse-riding.

Nutt also argued that taking cannabis created only a "relatively small risk" of psychotic illness.

I guess we now have an idea where Nutt's head was...

Quite honestly, at least here, a kid who turns legal age and starts to drink will show no health conditions after 6 months.
Ever know anybody who's done 6 months of CY Meth? Their ribs are showing, their teeth are rotted, they are bruised by anything, and scarred from scratching.

6 months of freebasing cocaine turned a friend of mine into a skinny coke freak who lost everything, he had lots to lose, and did.

My son brought home a kid on mushrooms. We tried to put him to bed. He roamed the house and got lost in the dog's pen, rolling around in the, yeah yeah. My kid took him out to the garage where he freaked out, broke a bunch of stuff, and ran away. The cops found him face down in a field 2 kms from our house sleeping face down with his pants around his ankles. U tell me what's dangerous?  

Long term addiction to alcohol will cause health problems and more for sure. Most drug addicts don't get the chance to be "long term".

I'm not advocating alcohol abuse.

Edited by Son of Placid, 28 December 2010 - 11:36 PM.

[mehdi soldier]

nemesis, on 28 December 2010 - 07:30 PM, said:

  


i'm no expert in christian scripture , but i found the following , it seems like it is not a Sin for Christians to drink but to drink in moderation as not to get drunk . and the scriptures only talk about Wine and no other alcohol , as wine is made from grapes and grapes are part of the biblical fruits.

Romans 14:21

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:31-32
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

Edited by mehdi soldier, 22 April 2011 - 08:29 AM.

[iere]

"Wine" was the general term used in Scripture for any grape juice extract, fermented or unfermented. The context of the verses reveal which type of wine/grape extract is being referred to. That is the reason for the differences in the verses that have been posted in this thread. With that understanding, it is clear that the Scriptures do not sanction drinking alcohol. As a Christian, I do believe that it is a sin to drink alcohol according to the Holy Scriptures...and the same is believe in my branch of Christianity.

Here is an excerpt from a book on the subject on "wine" in the Scriptures:  http://www.biblicalp...he_bible/2.html

[mehdi soldier]

iere, on 22 April 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

"Wine" was the general term used in Scripture for any grape juice extract, fermented or unfermented. The context of the verses reveal which type of wine/grape extract is being referred to. That is the reason for the differences in the verses that have been posted in this thread. With that understanding, it is clear that the Scriptures do not sanction drinking alcohol. As a Christian, I do believe that it is a sin to drink alcohol according to the Holy Scriptures...and the same is believe in my branch of Christianity.

Here is an excerpt from a book on the subject on "wine" in the Scriptures:  http://www.biblicalp...he_bible/2.html

so does the below verse refer to fermented or unfermented grape wine?:

Proverbs 23:31-32
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

[Son of Placid]

mehdi soldier, on 22 April 2011 - 06:57 PM, said:

so does the below verse refer to fermented or unfermented grape wine?:

Proverbs 23:31-32
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Read Proverbs 23:29 - 35. If the author isn't talking about fermented liquors somebody musta dropped something in his grape juice.

[mehdi soldier]

Luke 1:15

15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit [a]while yet in his mother’s womb.

[IloveImamHussain]

mehdi soldier, on 13 June 2011 - 06:10 AM, said:

Luke 1:15  For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.

That clearly places abstinence as the preferred option and gives out the message that liquor is not something the use of which would please God.

It could also be an implicit prohibition on liquor.

But no one in the West would want to see it that way. Life in the West revolves around the seductive lure of alcohol. The right time to tighten the grip would have been when Christianity invaded Europe.

With life getting more materialistic and worldly-wise by the minute, it is too late now. People are deliberately and resolutely removing themselves from all obligations to God and religion.

Look at the sexual revolution which started in the ‘60s. It is getting worse every day. Our resolve to defy God, to ignore the inevitable prospect of death and to make pleasure a life-goal seems to be proportional to progress in science and technology  and the consequent rise in well-being and prosperity.

nemesis, on 28 December 2010 - 07:30 PM, said:

It is not a sin for Christians to drink but to drink in moderation as not to get drunk

When you start drinking, you cannot know for sure when you will get drunk. Some might but everyone can't.

[placid]

Hi Iere,

Quote from Post 30:
"Wine" was the general term used in Scripture for any grape juice extract, fermented or unfermented. The context of the verses reveal which type of wine/grape extract is being referred to. That is the reason for the differences in the verses that have been posted in this thread. With that understanding, it is clear that the Scriptures do not sanction drinking alcohol. As a Christian, I do believe that it is a sin to drink alcohol according to the Holy Scriptures...and the same is believe in my branch of Christianity.

Response: --- I agree with you. While I know of Christians who drink table wine, I do not drink anything that is alcoholic.
You are right in saying that wine in Scripture refers basically to grape juice, 'the fruit of the vine.' --- though it, like any other fruit juice can be fermented.
--- there are two good places in the OT that describe the duties of a "cupbearer."
The "cupbearer" was the most trusted person in a kingdom. --- the reason being that one of the ways used to remove a king was to poison him.
--- If a king had a cupbearer that brought him his cup and the king suspected something, he could say to the cupbearer, "You drink that one, then bring me another one." --- He was the king, so, what would you do?

In Genesis 40, Joseph was in prison and the Pharaoh was angry with his butler and baker, suspecting both of them, so he put them in prison with Joseph,
Verse 11 says what the Butler said about him being the 'cupbearer':
11 Then Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand; and I took the grapes and pressed them into Pharaoh’s cup, and placed the cup in Pharaoh’s hand.”

--- Note: nothing could be fresher than to squeeze the grape juice directly into the cup, could it?

Nehemiah 1:11. After a long prayer, Nehemiah identified himself by saying:
11. For I was the king’s cupbearer.
2:1 And it came to pass in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes, when wine was before him, that I took the wine and gave it to the king.

Note: this was the duty of the cupbearer to give the cup to the king. --- It is called wine, but it was no doubt simple grape juice, which was commonly used.

--- Something else of interest was the 'winepresses,' where they crushed the grapes and the grape juice came out, Then they took the grape juice and put it into 'wineskins,' where it would ferment, --- and it was only alcoholic wine when it was poured out of the wineskins, after fermenting.
--- Yet they called it a 'winepress.'


Placid

[PeaceLoving]

placid, on 16 June 2011 - 08:40 AM, said:

Yet they called it a 'winepress.'

Surely they did not speak English.

I suppose 'winepress' is just the English word for whatever they called it.

What did they call it in their native tongue ?

[placid]

PeaceLoving, on 18 June 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

Surely they did not speak English.
I suppose 'winepress' is just the English word for whatever they called it.
What did they call it in their native tongue ?

--- In my Greek English NT the Greek word is translated "winepress." --- It is easy to understand what Eire said, that any grape juice, sweet or fermented, is called wine,

The idea of the winepress was to squeeze the juice out of the grapes, for the purpose of making wine, whether sweet or fermented.
--- What they used for bottles was animal skins. I suppose that the skin of the legs of animals would be ideal as you could sew, or tie the bottom, fill them, and sew or tie the top,

Jesus said in Luke 5:
37. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the wineskins and be spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined.
38. But new wine must be put into new wineskins, and both are preserved.

--- This was part of a parable, but this is the explanation given in the Bible Dictionatry:
Quote: The fact that fermenting wine expands and stretches its containers, was used by our Lord about putting new wine into old bottles (Luke 5:37-38). A new skin bottle would be elastic enough to stretch with the pressure of the fermenting wine, whereas an old stiff wineskin would burst.

--- Thus, it follows that, when it was put into the wineskins (bottles) it was grape juice with whatever they may have added, and the fermenting took place in the bottles.

So whether the press was called a winepress or a grape press, it fulfilled its duty for whatever kind of drink was desired.

[IloveImamHussain]

Placid, my friend

If I was part of this site management, I would have renamed this thread from the 'Islam/Christianity/Judaism' forum to the 'Placid forum'.

There are more posts by you than by the rest of the members combined.

And if someone could count the total number of words written by individual members, your total would probably be ten times the rest of us together.

But was it really useful ?

No offence, but I think you could have spent your time in far more useful ways.

[placid]

So you like short posts that don't give any info,

I see you are having trouble with your arithmetic.

IloveImamHussain --- 3788 posts.

Placid --- 2725 posts

Peaceloving --- 2117.posts


Well, let's see now, --- if I was like some other Christians who come and make their statements and then leave, or get asked to leave, you would go on not knowing much about the NT except what you can find to justify a defence against it. --- This is the Muslim, Christian, Jewish Forum, is it not?
Do you too, say, "Read the Quran, but don't believe it."

--- Do you have something better that God has revealed, --- or just what man has revealed?
For instance, I find no verses in the Quran concerning the coming Mahdi, --- Okay, so I know nothing about him.

The NT says plainly that Jesus is coming again, and that the first event which will take place when the world is in chaos, is --- 'the catching away of the saints,'--- commonly called, "The Rapture."

If this happens during our present world distress and turmoil, --- will you be asking me, --- "What will happen next?"

I study the Bible and the Quran to underdstand the will of God and the prophecies of our times, --- and the best advice I can give is:

--- "Be a learner, not a critic."

I can agree with pretty well everything in --- 'Islam 101.' --- do you?

--- (Sorry if I usually overstate my case, but I enjoy most of our exchanges. --- It keeps us studying, does it not?)

[IloveImamHussain]

placid, on 19 June 2011 - 06:12 AM, said:

I see you are having trouble with your arithmetic.

Hi Placid

You are absolutely right about the arithmetic but there are two notable differences.

My posts are spread across several different forums while yours are all in just this one.

Also, the average size of each of your posts is much bigger.

placid, on 19 June 2011 - 06:12 AM, said:

So you like short posts that don't give any info

Not necessarily.

But long posts are not necessarily very useful either.

They tend to make people drowsy and lose interest in the topic.

Also, so far I have not seen any positive outcome from your discussions.

But if you think there are, please keep going.

This site is very liberal. No one will stop you.

[placid]

Hi Ilove,

I am not sure if you knew, or remember that I was asked to write Christianity 101.

It has been read more times than the number of posts I have written.

I had thought that if Muslims read that, they would want to dispute some of the statements there, but to date there has never been a comment on that general statement of faith.

I feel that this is the only forum that accommodates the three Religions that came from Abraham, and I copy the Bible and Quran verses as they are written.

When I give my opinion, and there is no Scripture to accompany it, I usually say so, because people always want 'sourses.'

When I get questions, I ask the Lord to guide me in answering, so I do, --- long or short.
Thank you for inviting me to continue, --- I would be happy if there were more Christians to enter in discussion and more Jewish posters, but I feel that when you ask questions or make wrong statements, they need to be responded to from the Scriptures.
--- I don't have any philosophy of life other than, The Faith of Abraham, the Basic Commandments of Moses, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Mission of Muhammad to destroy idolatry and restore Faith in our One God.

[IloveImamHussain]

placid, on 20 June 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

I feel that this is the only forum that accommodates the three religions that came from Abraham, and I copy the Bible and Quran verses as they are written.

Hi Placid

Because of the anonymity it offers, the Internet is the worst place to discuss religion. People don't know one another. And they can afford to be offensive and get away with it with impunity.

Positive thinking Muslims do realize that the three Abrahamic faiths have a lot in common. But on the Internet, they have a very different attitude. They love to pick up fights, to win their battles and to cut the other person to pieces.

I have always held you as a very sincere and respectable man but I think all your hard work is really in vain.

I am not asking you to leave this site but please do not have very high hopes and please do not put such a lot of work into all this.

You take every post very seriously and try your best to response to everyone.

For the sake of your own health and well-being, I seriously think you should cut down quite a bit.

It will not provide you the solace that you expect from it.

For starters, for example, you could try forcing yourself to visit the site only twice (or at the most thrice) a week and to respond only to very important posts.

Just my two cents’ worth, no offence is intended.

[JimJam]

^Hes right you know, too much polemics pains the heart, i often feel angry and frustrated when arguing on the Sunni /Shia forum. Placid and Madhi soldier both need to post in the lol thread

[placid]

JimJam, on 20 June 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

^Hes right you know, too much polemics pains the heart, i often feel angry and frustrated when arguing on the Sunni /Shia forum. Placid and Madhi soldier both need to post in the lol thread

Hi Jim,

I had to look up the word 'polemics,' as I was not familiar with it.

At any rate, I try to respond to questions or comments, --- but this is the only forum for Christian expression, is it not?

I have felt that we should be free to say, "This is what Jews believe" --- "This is what Muslims believe" --- and "This is what Christians believe.
--- I have asked the question of Muslims which is asked in the Gospel, "What must I do that I might inherit eternal life?"

I think we have sparred around long enough on the three favourite subjects of Muslims, --- the trinity, the Son of God, and the crucifixion and resurrection, --- so we should discuss something else.

For instance, --- I am told to "read the Quran to know what Muslims believe."
However, when I read the Quran I want to believe it as it is written, --- but the Posters don't like that.

So, I will ask you  a short question, to see if I am out of line.

In 3:50, Jesus was speaking, and said, ".And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.  
51. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a Straight Path."  

--- Here is my question. --- If worshiping God and following Jesus is the Straight Path --- can there be a Straighter One?

Edited by placid, 20 June 2011 - 07:32 PM.

[JimJam]

Quote

In 3:50, Jesus was speaking, and said, ".And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
51. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a Straight Path."

--- Here is my question. --- If worshiping God and following Jesus is the Straight Path --- can there be a Straighter One?

But I do follow Jesus and  I do worship Allah. On straight path lies Moses and the prophets of Judaism, and  later Jesus and now prophet Muhammad and his successor Imams.

[3:3] It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

[3:64] Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

[3:84] Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

Edited by JimJam, 21 June 2011 - 10:29 AM.

[mehdi soldier]

IloveImamHussain, on 13 June 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:

But no one in the West would want to see it that way. Life in the West revolves around the seductive lure of alcohol. The right time to tighten the grip would have been when Christianity invaded Europe.

i was recently present at a western wedding reception and ofcourse alcohol was served.

when i was asked by the attendant what i would like to take,i asked for a soft drink.at last,after he saw that i consumed no alcohol he came to me and asked again:"sir,if you dont drink wine,should i get you something soft like beer".i then told him that i am muslim and i do not drink.

his response was somewhat shocking even though he was the one serving alcohol.he commended my abstinence and said it was the best.he then remarked:"alcohol is a weapon.and it is a disease... (that people cannot do without he meant)".

i simply smiled that he admitted to serving people a "weapon" and a "disease" that many if not all do not need but yet still are so fond of the bad habit of drug abuse and knowlingly harm themselves and are so addicited for no good reason.they are like children but worse who use alcohol (a drug) like toy.

[mehdi soldier]

placid, on 20 June 2011 - 07:29 PM, said:

I have felt that we should be free to say, "This is what Jews believe" --- "This is what Muslims believe" --- and "This is what Christians believe.
--- I have asked the question of Muslims which is asked in the Gospel, "What must I do that I might inherit eternal life?"

you have come into this thread to spread the usual lie you're known for.

and what is your point?as usual that the new testament is the "injeel" mentioned in the Quran and because muslims are commanded to follow what was previously revealed so they must accept your new testament.you keep forgetting that even you have testfied that the new testament is not the injeel but contains injeel.then you'd preach about your "red-letter edition" which draws out the words of Jesus wanting us to accept that because muslims believe only in the "gospel of Jesus" and not in the "gospel of st. this or that".then i would like you to know that even what is attributed as the words of Jesus cannot be supported by evidence or authority that Jesus actually spoke them especially when you view the many contradictiory narrations in the NT.and even so what?what do i as a muslim need any other book when i have the Quran?i follow previous scripture through the Quran.

and to answer your above question,you should check your NT:

Mathew 19:

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
   17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

  Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

NB:belief in the mysterious and magical "blood" is not mentioned as a condition for attaining salvation.

Edited by mehdi soldier, 23 June 2011 - 12:15 AM.

[Pascal]

I haven't read all this thread and i will hopefully go back to and be able to at some time.

I'd like to point out Jesus drank wine and priests in church often drink from the cup as well and share it with a couple other believers (in the catholic tradition anyway).

So, it's not a question of whether it's forbidden or not, its more of a question of how much is too much. Really, you don't need any religion or book to tell you that answer .

[placid]

JimJam, on 21 June 2011 - 10:24 AM, said:

But I do follow Jesus and  I do worship Allah. On straight path lies Moses and the prophets of Judaism, and  later Jesus and now prophet Muhammad and his successor Imams.
[3:3] It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
[3:64] Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).
[3:84] Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

Hi Jim,
Quote: On straight path lies Moses and the prophets of Judaism, and  later Jesus and now prophet Muhammad and his successor Imams.

Response: --- If you believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet of God, then he ranks with the others, --- but the imams do not, do they?

Quote: [3:3] It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

Response: --- And if we add the Quran to the Book of the Torah and the Gospel we have the complete message of God to mankind, do we not?

Quote: 3:64] Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

Response: --- This is the common Faith of our three religions, that we worship none but God
--- The Jews began to set 'lords' over the people that were not appointed by God and they began to stray away from the worship of God.
When Jesus came as God's representative on earth, the Jewish hierarchy didn't recognize Him. --- When they did acknowledge Him, they rejected Him.

Jesus taught the disciples that they should not exalt one over another, but recognize the ones to whom God had given authority. --- So, in the New Testament Church, there were these identifications --- Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. --- There are also Church workers such as Elders and deacons.--- These are still the only offices recognized by Evangelical Churches  today.

--- After the Apostles and Church fathers, the Gospel had been spread far and wide, but the ‘Church’ came under Roman control and wanted to be the ‘universal Church having one standard, so they called it the Roman Catholic (universal) Church.
--- (Note : --- The Catholic Church has been revived different times so the Church of today is quite different that it was then.)

They, however, adopted the type of hierarchy that had been part of Judaism with priests and high priests who were appointed by men.
Those who are appointed to ‘rule over others’ are in the position of ‘lords,’ so that was the violation that the verse mentions, “that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords.” --- You see, --- not appointed by God, but elected from among themselves.

In the same way they appointed a “patron” from among themselves, a Pope, and declared him “infallible.” (Dict. meaning, ---unerring, never failing, incapable of making mistakes.)
--- So this would make the Pope, God’s ‘partner’ on earth, appointed or chosen by the Church. (He may have been a good man, even as Popes today are good men, but they are chosen by men, and said to be ‘infallible’ like God.)
Muhammad was the Prophet of God to his people, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that he was “infallible,” does it?
Therefore, If he was declared “infallible” by men, as well as all of the Prophets before him that the Shia Muslims declare as “infallible,” --- then this was the work of men, not of God, was it not?
And each Imam was declared as a “lord” to the people, and I believe also “infallible” by the Shias, is that not right? --- But again declared so by men and not of God.

--- So the Quran was given to, and through, Muhammad, but was the final word, --- or more would have been included in the Quran, would it not?  
So, could we say that those who follow the Quran ‘only’ are true Muslims?

Quote: 3:84] Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

Response: --- This is what I believe also, and I bow my will in surrender unto God. --- The word, ‘Islam’ means surrender, does it not?

In surah 3:53 the disciples of Jesus said, “We believe in God and bear witness that we have surrendered unto Him (or, are Muslims)
54. “Our Lord ! (God) we believe in that which you have revealed, and we follow Him (Jesus) whom you have sent. Enroll us among those who bear witness (to the truth).

--- You see, Jim, these are some questions I ask, not wanting to stir up a controversy, but just for your thoughts on the matter. We don't have to agree on everything, but we should be able to see each others point of view, should we not?


Placid

[iere]

kingpomba, on 23 June 2011 - 07:12 AM, said:

I haven't read all this thread and i will hopefully go back to and be able to at some time.

I'd like to point out Jesus drank wine and priests in church often drink from the cup as well and share it with a couple other believers (in the catholic tradition anyway).

So, it's not a question of whether it's forbidden or not, its more of a question of how much is too much. Really, you don't need any religion or book to tell you that answer .

Yes, Jesus drank wine, meaning grape juice extract. Wine is used for both unfermented and fermented grape juice in the Scriptures. Fermented wine is in fact forbidden in the Scriptures, which context generally indicates.