63 replies to this topic

[Son Of Adam]

Dear people of the book, what does the Bible say about Alcohol, i have read on some sites that some verses say that God blesses the wine and other places God forbids the consumption of wine. Can someone please explain.

Wa'Salam!

[Yaaqov Ben Yisrael]

Son Of Adam, on 05 November 2010 - 07:14 AM, said:

Dear people of the book, what does the Bible say about Alcohol, i have read on some sites that some verses say that God blesses the wine and other places God forbids the consumption of wine. Can someone please explain.

Wa'Salam!

The consumption of wine and strong drink was never prohibited by the Torah. However, the consumption of it till drunkensess and dabauchery is expressly forbidden.

[mehdi soldier]

Yaaqov Ben Yisrael, on 06 November 2010 - 08:42 AM, said:

The consumption of wine and strong drink was never prohibited by the Torah. However, the consumption of it till drunkensess and dabauchery is expressly forbidden.

does the bible specify how much in quantity to drink that would not make one drunk?

i mean if you dont drink as much as that would make you drunk you will never know how much can actually make you drunk,right?

Edited by mehdi soldier, 08 November 2010 - 05:37 PM.

[mehdi soldier]

Leviticus 10
8 Then the LORD said to Aaron, 9 “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the tent of meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, 10 so that you can distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and so you can teach the Israelites all the decrees the LORD has given them through Moses.”

question:

1.) if alcohol is unclean and it is prohibited when going into the tent (i.e. to worship),is it logical to say that this unclean substance is permissible to be consumed after leaving the tent?
2.) does God permit His followers to touch the unclean?
3.) is God ok with His followers only to be clean momentarily? hypocrites?

Proverbs 20
1 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler;
   whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Luke 1:15
15 for he (John) will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

[placid]

Hi Son of Adam,

Quote from Post 1:
Dear people of the book, what does the Bible say about Alcohol, i have read on some sites that some verses say that God blesses the wine and other places God forbids the consumption of wine. Can someone please explain.

Response: --- Sorry to be slow in answering, but I see that you have not been given very satisfactory answers
--- Generally speaking, consumption of alcohol is spoken against in the Scriptures.

In the OT, Proverbs gives a stern warning in 20:
1. Wine is a mocker, intoxicating drink arouses brawling,
And whoever is led astray by it is not wise
--- The thought is that 'drinking wine' lifts the spirit and makes one foolish.
--- And 'strong drink' irritates the system and can produce anger, which leads to brawling.

There is a description of one addicted to wine in Proverbs 23:
29. Who has woe?
      Who has sorrow?
      Who has contentions?
      Who has complaints?
      Who has wounds without cause?
      Who has redness of eyes?
       30. Those who linger long at the wine,
      Those who go in search of mixed wine.
       31. Do not look on the wine when it is red,
      When it sparkles in the cup,
      When it swirls around smoothly;
       32. At the last it bites like a serpent,
      And stings like a viper.

And Proverb 31, by King Lemuel (instructions from his mother):
4. It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
      It is not for kings to drink wine,
      Nor for princes intoxicating drink;
       5. Lest they drink and forget the law,
      And pervert the justice of all the afflicted.
       6. Give strong drink to him who is perishing,
      And wine to those who are bitter of heart.
       7. Let him drink and forget his poverty,
      And remember his misery no more.

These are about the only verses that say anything positive about using wine and strong drink, and, after warning against it for kings and leaders, (which has been a problem with leadership throughout history), it is suggested as a medicine.
--- (Of course, this was written about 930 BC, so they didn't have doctors and pharmacies available.)

"Give strong drink to him who is perishing." --- This will speed up his circulation and help to revive him.
But the giving is controlled by someone else.

Also, "And (give) wine to those who are bitter of heart" --- Those who are in poverty or misery, to lift his spirits.
Again, the giving should be controlled by someone else.
--- (If people use alcohol to access, they develop more problems.)

In the NT it acknowledges that wine was used with meals and at celebrations.
There were intoxicating wines, and sweet wines, or 'the fruit of the vine,' which was simple grape juice.

Drunkenness and debauchery are sins of the flesh, and Christians are warned against 'all appearance of evil.'

A good rule is this in 1 Corinthians 6:
12. All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

So-called Christian countries are not examples of what the Scriptures teach, --- but most dedicated Christians are abstainers from any kind of alcohol.


Placid

[Yaaqov Ben Yisrael]

mehdi soldier, on 08 November 2010 - 05:37 PM, said:

does the bible specify how much in quantity to drink that would not make one drunk?

i mean if you dont drink as much as that would make you drunk you will never know how much can actually make you drunk,right?

When drinking leads to debauchery and sin, you have had too much to drink.

mehdi soldier, on 10 November 2010 - 03:14 PM, said:

Leviticus 10
8 Then the LORD said to Aaron, 9 “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the tent of meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, 10 so that you can distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and so you can teach the Israelites all the decrees the LORD has given them through Moses.”

question:

1.) if alcohol is unclean and it is prohibited when going into the tent (i.e. to worship),is it logical to say that this unclean substance is permissible to be consumed after leaving the tent?
2.) does God permit His followers to touch the unclean?
3.) is God ok with His followers only to be clean momentarily? hypocrites?

Proverbs 20
1 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler;
   whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Luke 1:15
15 for he (John) will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

You have removed these verses from its context. The job of the priests were to teach Israel the Torah, and officiate as priests. The distinguishment between clean and unclean etc. Strng drink is not identified as unclean.

These verses came as a prohibition after the two sons of Aaron were killed for bringing strange fire to the altar of YHWH. So this prohibition was introduced to the priests. It was not a permanent perpetual prohibition, but was limited by the phrase: when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation 10:9

[mehdi soldier]

Yaaqov Ben Yisrael, on 13 November 2010 - 10:48 AM, said:

When drinking leads to debauchery and sin, you have had too much to drink.



You have removed these verses from its context. The job of the priests were to teach Israel the Torah, and officiate as priests. The distinguishment between clean and unclean etc. Strng drink is not identified as unclean.

These verses came as a prohibition after the two sons of Aaron were killed for bringing strange fire to the altar of YHWH. So this prohibition was introduced to the priests. It was not a permanent perpetual prohibition, but was limited by the phrase: when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation 10:9

your explanation does not sound logical nor does it justify drinking.i still do not see your point.something called "unclean"  in one place no matter what cannot be clean at another place/time.

[Qa'im]

The reference to John the Baptist in Luke is actually in reference to the Nazarite oath (Numbers 6). In the first century, it was customary for those who took the oath to dedicate themselves fully to God, abstain from marriage, wine, grapes, and cutting hair.

[BostonJew]

mehdi soldier, on 08 November 2010 - 05:37 PM, said:

does the bible specify how much in quantity to drink that would not make one drunk?

i mean if you dont drink as much as that would make you drunk you will never know how much can actually make you drunk,right?

That's sort of like saying that if you never eat so much that you throw up, you'll never know how much will make you throw up.  Or that if you never run until the point of absolute collapse, you'll never know how far you can run without collapsing.  It's technically true, but misses the point.  Wine, like food and exercise, is beneficial in moderation but not in excess.

As for an inappropriate quantity, this would depend on an individual's weight, genetics, tolerance, whether they were taking any medications, etc.  The Torah does not provide a blood-alcohol test level.

placid, on 11 November 2010 - 04:52 PM, said:

--- Generally speaking, consumption of alcohol is spoken against in the Scriptures.

Placid's quotes from the Hebrew Bible are selective.

In general, the Jewish tradition holds that wine in moderation is positive, but to excess is negative.

In Psalm 104, in the midst of praising G-d for creating the manifold wonders of the world, the Psalmist (according to Jewish tradition, King David) includes: "Wine (that) gladdens the heart of man." (Psalms 104:14)

As Rabbi Dr. Asher Meir notes:
"Of course Jewish tradition recognizes that alcohol is a two-edged sword. Drinking alone has been a harbinger of tragedy ever since the disastrous experiences of Noach (Genesis 9:21) and Lot (Genesis 19:33); but drinking together has served to promote fellowship ever since the auspicious experience of Yosef and his brothers (Genesis 43:34) and the joyous time of the pilgrimage to the Temple (Deuteronomy 14:26). Jewish law even recognizes a special blessing on drinking wine, which is said only when people drink together in fellowship – never when they drink alone."

Of course, there are plenty of stern warnings against drinking to excess, which Placid quotes.  Is this such a hard concept?  A little is good, a lot is bad?  

Jews drink wine for religious purposes at least twice every week (Friday night, for kiddush to begin Shabbat, and Saturday night, for havdalah to conclude Shabbat).  On Pesach (Passover) we drink four cups.  NOTE: Persons for whom it would be unhealthful to drink wine (e.g., a pregnant woman) can do like children do, and drink grape juice instead.

The difference between Jewish drinking and drinking in certain gentile cultures is that we drink a glass or two, all preceded by a blessing, as part of a family meal in an environs of holiness -- not as part of raucous behavior at a bar or football game.

mehdi soldier, on 10 November 2010 - 03:14 PM, said:

Leviticus 10
8 Then the LORD said to Aaron, 9 “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the tent of meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, 10 so that you can distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and so you can teach the Israelites all the decrees the LORD has given them through Moses.”

question:

1.) if alcohol is unclean and it is prohibited when going into the tent (i.e. to worship),is it logical to say that this unclean substance is permissible to be consumed after leaving the tent?
2.) does God permit His followers to touch the unclean?
3.) is God ok with His followers only to be clean momentarily? hypocrites?

Question: Are you allowed to wear a business suit in the middle of the Grand Mosque in Mecca as you're circling the Kaaba?  No?  If a business suit is prohibited when going to the Kaaba, is it logical to say that it's permissible to wear a business suit when you've gone back home?  

There are an extensive set of prohibitions applicable to the kohen ("priest" in the typical if unsatisfying English translation) in the Mishkan ("Tabernacle") or Bet Hamikdash (the Temple in Jerusalem).  Many of these do not apply to the kohen when they are outside the Mishkan or Bet Hamikdash, and many of them don't apply to the rest of the Jewish population at all.  (For example, the kohen must wear special clothing.)  This has to do with the unique sanctity of these places and has no bearing on whether you may enjoy a glass of wine with dinner.

mehdi soldier, on 13 November 2010 - 12:18 PM, said:

your explanation does not sound logical nor does it justify drinking.i still do not see your point.something called "unclean"  in one place no matter what cannot be clean at another place/time.

Unfortunately, you're missing the point.  The text says:

"Do not drink wine that will lead to intoxication, neither you nor your sons with you, when you go into the Tent of Meeting, so that you shall not die. [This is] an eternal statute for your generations, to distinguish between holy and common and between unclean and clean, and to instruct the children of Israel regarding all the statutes which the Lord has spoken to them through Moses."

First, it does not prohibit the kohen from drinking wine "at all."  It prohibits the kohen from going into the Ohel HaMoed (Tent of Meeting) drunk.  If the Torah meant to prohibit one drink of wine, it would have just said "Do not drink wine" and left it at that, but it specifically added the part about wine leading to intoxication.  Rashi puts this well:

Quote

wine that will lead to intoxication: Heb. יַיִן וְשֵׁכָר. שֵׁכָר does not mean other strong drink, but wine in a manner that leads to intoxication" (namely, sufficient wine to cause intoxication, undiluted, and drunk without interruption).

Second, it never says the wine is unclean.  It says that the purpose of the prohibition on entering the Ohel drunk is "to distinguish between holy and common and between unclean and clean."  Again, Rashi puts it well:

Quote

to distinguish: (I.e.,) so that you can distinguish between a holy service and one that has been profaned. Thus you have learned that if one performed a particular service (after having drunk wine), it is invalid.

Remember, the same Torah that prohibits the kohen from entering the Ohel in a state of intoxication also authorizes Temple pilgrims who are coming from too far to keep produce fresh to dispense with the normal method of tithing (i.e., bringing the produce itself to Jerusalem) but instead to sell their produce locally, bring the money, and then spend the money in Jerusalem -- including, if they so choose, on wine (Deut. 14:26).

[Christianlady]

Son Of Adam, on 05 November 2010 - 07:14 AM, said:

Dear people of the book, what does the Bible say about Alcohol, i have read on some sites that some verses say that God blesses the wine and other places God forbids the consumption of wine. Can someone please explain.

Wa'Salam!

Hello Son of Adam,

Alcohol itself is not mentioned, I don't think. Alcohol in itself is not bad. It's getting drunk that is bad.

Below are some verses I found about getting drunk.

Proverbs 23 (NIV)

" 19 Listen, my son, and be wise,
   and set your heart on the right path:
20 Do not join those who drink too much wine
   or gorge themselves on meat,
21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,
   and drowsiness clothes them in rags. "

Proverbs 31 (NIV)

" 4 It is not for kings, Lemuel—
   it is not for kings to drink wine,
   not for rulers to crave beer,
5 lest they drink and forget what has been decreed,
   and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
6 Let beer be for those who are perishing,
   wine for those who are in anguish!
7 Let them drink and forget their poverty
   and remember their misery no more.

8 Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves,
   for the rights of all who are destitute.
9 Speak up and judge fairly;
   defend the rights of the poor and needy."

Luke 12 (NIV) (The Lord - Master - is Jesus.)

" 41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

   47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. "

Romans 13 (NIV)

" 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[Exodus 20:13-15,17; Deuteronomy 5:17-19,21] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[Leviticus 19:18] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.[c]


1 Corinthians 5 (NIV)

" 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."

1 Corinthians 6 (NIV)

"9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Ephesians 5 (NIV)

" 15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

1 Timothy 3 (NIV)

" 1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

8 In the same way, deacons[b] are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women[c] are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus. "

1 Peter 4 (NIV)

"1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms."

So, even though drinking alcohol is not forbidden, it is very wise to not get drunk!!! For many people, it is best not to drink alcohol at all, since it's so easy to get drunk. For others, some can drink alcohol in moderation and not get drunk, but each person is responsible before God with how they live, including their use of alcohol.

Peace and God bless you

[Son Of Adam]

Peace Be Upons Yous,

And may Allah (swt) bless his prophet Mohammed (s) and his family (a.s),

Firstly, i would like to thank yous for the wonderful replies, i really appreciate it. I am still a bit confused, some of the replies i have gotten is that the consumption of alcohol is not fobidden but getting drunk is. Some of the verse that have been posted up talk about not to drink to much wine such as in proverbs "20 Do not join those who drink too much wine" and also in Ephesians 5: "18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery". However the verses below also need to be examined properly:

Romans 14: "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak" - 21

"But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment". (Isaiah 28:7)

"Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth". (Joel 1:5)

"[Edited Out]dom and wine and new wine take away the heart". ( Hosea 4:11). The word '[Edited Out]dom' in some dictionary state that it is a biblical word for 'idolatry'.

"he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. (Luke 1:15)"

These verse need some explanation, from what i can see it clearly states to stay away from strong drinks, either a small or large amount.

With Peace!

[Son of Placid]

Son Of Adam, on 15 November 2010 - 06:56 AM, said:

Peace Be Upons Yous,

And may Allah (swt) bless his prophet Mohammed (s) and his family (a.s),

Firstly, i would like to thank yous for the wonderful replies, i really appreciate it. I am still a bit confused, some of the replies i have gotten is that the consumption of alcohol is not fobidden but getting drunk is. Some of the verse that have been posted up talk about not to drink to much wine such as in proverbs "20 Do not join those who drink too much wine" and also in Ephesians 5: "18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery". However the verses below also need to be examined properly:

Romans 14: "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak" - 21

"But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment". (Isaiah 28:7)

"Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth". (Joel 1:5)

"[Edited Out]dom and wine and new wine take away the heart". ( Hosea 4:11). The word '[Edited Out]dom' in some dictionary state that it is a biblical word for 'idolatry'.

"he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. (Luke 1:15)"

These verse need some explanation, from what i can see it clearly states to stay away from strong drinks, either a small or large amount.

With Peace!

I don't think they need much explanation. I think you see it rather accuratley.
There is another expression I know to be true, but is not biblical as per se. The demon alcohol.

[mehdi soldier]

BostonJew, on 14 November 2010 - 08:05 PM, said:

That's sort of like saying that if you never eat so much that you throw up, you'll never know how much will make you throw up.  Or that if you never run until the point of absolute collapse, you'll never know how far you can run without collapsing.  It's technically true, but misses the point.  Wine, like food and exercise, is beneficial in moderation but not in excess.

As for an inappropriate quantity, this would depend on an individual's weight, genetics, tolerance, whether they were taking any medications, etc.  The Torah does not provide a blood-alcohol test level.

you will never know what quantity makes you drunk until you actually gets drunk.that is why the "moderation" excuse is not real.you should get real.a cup can make me drunk.maybe 5 cups would not make you drunk.so does that mean i should take 5 cups or 1 cup?and how do i know if ive not already being possessed under the influence of alcohol?

Quote

Question: Are you allowed to wear a business suit in the middle of the Grand Mosque in Mecca as you're circling the Kaaba?  No?  If a business suit is prohibited when going to the Kaaba, is it logical to say that it's permissible to wear a business suit when you've gone back home?  

i can go to the grand mosque with a suit.the question you're asking has no sense in it.its as good as asking:"why dont you eat when fasting"?

the suit is not prohibited.but when one is performing the hajj,there is a uniform to be worn.it is not because the suit is dirty or unclean.it is also not because the suit is used to know who is clean and who is unpure.we are talking here about strong terms used by your God to describe something as unclean.the swine too is unclean.he is not telling you to do something like He tells us to put on white garment for hajj.

Quote

There are an extensive set of prohibitions applicable to the kohen ("priest" in the typical if unsatisfying English translation) in the Mishkan ("Tabernacle") or Bet Hamikdash (the Temple in Jerusalem).  Many of these do not apply to the kohen when they are outside the Mishkan or Bet Hamikdash, and many of them don't apply to the rest of the Jewish population at all.  (For example, the kohen must wear special clothing.)  This has to do with the unique sanctity of these places and has no bearing on whether you may enjoy a glass of wine with dinner.

we are talking of a filthy thing here.if drinking is what differeniates an unclean man from a clean man,then it is something dirty.so its ok to be clean and sane when in the holy place but to knock your brain off when you're out.other than knocking off the brain,what is really the use of alcohol?going back statistics and medical findings,there is no one that can claim alcohol have positive effect on the society collectively.

Quote

Unfortunately, you're missing the point.  The text says:

"Do not drink wine that will lead to intoxication, neither you nor your sons with you, when you go into the Tent of Meeting, so that you shall not die. [This is] an eternal statute for your generations, to distinguish between holy and common and between unclean and clean, and to instruct the children of Israel regarding all the statutes which the Lord has spoken to them through Moses."

First, it does not prohibit the kohen from drinking wine "at all."  It prohibits the kohen from going into the Ohel HaMoed (Tent of Meeting) drunk.  If the Torah meant to prohibit one drink of wine, it would have just said "Do not drink wine" and left it at that, but it specifically added the part about wine leading to intoxication.  Rashi puts this well:

Deuteronomy 29:6

You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.”


Isaiah 5:11

11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning
   to run after their drinks,
who stay up late at night
   till they are inflamed with wine.


so are you going to interprete the above that wine should not be drank also in the morning?

Isaiah 5:22
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
   and champions at mixing drinks,

if this is something not unclean and something that can be encouraged,what is wrong in excelling at it?


Proverbs 4:17
17For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.

Proverbs 23:31

31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

so you cant look at wine,except when it is not red?why?

here is the answer:

Proverbs 23:32
32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.


Hosea 4:11
11*w*h*o*r*e*d*o*m and wine and new wine take away the heart

Quote

Second, it never says the wine is unclean.  It says that the purpose of the prohibition on entering the Ohel drunk is "to distinguish between holy and common and between unclean and clean."  Again, Rashi puts it well:


Remember, the same Torah that prohibits the kohen from entering the Ohel in a state of intoxication also authorizes Temple pilgrims who are coming from too far to keep produce fresh to dispense with the normal method of tithing (i.e., bringing the produce itself to Jerusalem) but instead to sell their produce locally, bring the money, and then spend the money in Jerusalem -- including, if they so choose, on wine (Deut. 14:26).

Judges 13:4

Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean


Judges 13:7

She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her.”

Edited by mehdi soldier, 18 November 2010 - 08:48 PM.

[BostonJew]

Son Of Adam: I'm not going to comment on the Christian New Testament.  As for the quotes from the Hebrew scriptures you provide, I think it is important to note that we generally do not learn halacha (Jewish law) from the Navi (books of prophets after the Torah) or Ketuvim ("writings" - basically, those books of the Hebrew Bible that are not prophetic).   As for the specific quotes from Isaiah, Joel, and Hoshea that you quoted, they are basically talking about too much wine.  Given that the Torah itself explicitly permits drinking wine (Deut. 14:26), it would be completely illogical to interpret Isaiah, Joel, or Hosea as somehow prohibiting it, and anyway the Navi cannot contradict the Torah.  Instead of focusing on isolated quotes from the Navi (which is also often written in poetic form), it would probably be helpful to you to just read the Torah narrative.  The Torah includes instances of our holy forefathers drinking wine appropriately (e.g., Gen. 43:34) but also of what happens when someone drinks too much (Gen. 9:21, Gen. 19:33).  If the Torah had wished to prohibit wine entirely, it would have been easy enough -- it prohibits 365 other things, so there could have easily been a 614th commandment ("no alcohol") if G-d had so wished.  There is actually a category of Jews for whom the Torah *does* prohibit wine: the nazir.  He's not even allowed to eat grapes.  See Num. 6:3-6:4.  But this doesn't apply to anyone other than the nazir.  In the past 3400 years of Jewish history, not one commentator has ever interpreted any part of the Torah as prohibiting alcohol altogether, and as I noted before, halacha requires consumption of wine (except where inappropriate for health reasons, e.g., pregnant or sick) for certain celebrations.  More than that, there isn't much to say.

Mehdi Soldier:  The same points apply to you.  Maybe the Kaaba analogy was inexact; I was trying to do something culturally relevant to you but I failed.  I don't see why it's complicated that certain things are OK in certain circumstances but not another.  In America, an airline pilot can enjoy a beer at home on his day off, but if he shows up to fly the plane drunk, he's in big trouble.  Same goes for the kohen.  The verse in Deuteronomy 29:6 is specifically describing the 40 years in the desert, and as you accurately quoted, it mentions bread along with wine -- I hope you're not going to suggest that we can't eat bread either.

This is just not a disputed or interesting question in Judaism.  There are certain things that are prohibited to us (for example, pork and shellfish), and certain things that are commanded of us (for example, matzah on Passover), and a whole middle category of things where Rambam's rule of moderation applies: a little is fine, too much is bad.  I understand that Islam prohibits wine.  That is fine.  Judaism does not.  Perhaps Islam does not prohibit clam chowder.  Judaism does.  We are different religions.  Our rules do not apply to you and your rules do not apply to us.  In order to respect differences we must first recognize them.

[kadhim]

Mehdi soldier,

Boston Jew is making a patient effort to explain the points to you, and has done so well.
The least you could do is read what he is saying with care.
His argument is straightforward and reasonable. It is not controversial that moderate amounts of alcohol intake are not harmful to either the individual or the society, but rather the results of excess are harmful.
Judaism does not prohibit drinking period, but excess.
As for how you know what is too much, it is not that complicated. You feel the effects, you recognize you're getting a little woozy, and you back off and slow down.

Our prohibition is not based on the idea that any intake of alcohol is harmful, but rather that the overall effects of those few who are predisposed to overindulge are more detrimental to society overall than the beneficial effects are beneficial to society.
Both perspectives can be reasonably supported. To us our way, to them theirs. Either way strictly followed to a T will lead to success.

Edited by kadhim, 02 December 2010 - 01:19 AM.

[mehdi soldier]

kadhim, on 02 December 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

Mehdi soldier,

Boston Jew is making a patient effort to explain the points to you, and has done so well.
The least you could do is read what he is saying with care.
His argument is straightforward and reasonable. It is not controversial that moderate amounts of alcohol intake are not harmful to either the individual or the society, but rather the results of excess are harmful.
Judaism does not prohibit drinking period, but excess.
As for how you know what is too much, it is not that complicated. You feel the effects, you recognize you're getting a little woozy, and you back off and slow down.

Our prohibition is not based on the idea that any intake of alcohol is harmful, but rather that the overall effects of those few who are predisposed to overindulge are more detrimental to society overall than the beneficial effects are beneficial to society.
Both perspectives can be reasonably supported. To us our way, to them theirs. Either way strictly followed to a T will lead to success.

dear Brother,

i really tried and succeeded in understanding your point.i believe others too should do likewise and understand my point.i liked all you said but i seriously disagree with your last sentence:"Either way strictly followed to a T will lead to success".take note that a drunkard is not born.he starts with a drop and ends up consuming a drum! its a gradual process before his problem is called drunkenness.


my argument is not about where alcohol is permitted or where it is not permitted in the bible.that is the problem for those who rely on the bible for guidance to think over it.i merely presented verses from the bible to back up my point to a reasonable extent.my argment has more to do with reasons why God would tell you in one place that alcohol is a determining factor in judging between what is clean and what is unclean and in another place you get the idea that excessive drinking is what is being warned against.the best i can understand this logic is the fact that God is telling us ahead of time that the law will one day be applied totally and no alcohol would be tolerated or permitted.

we can also learn from islamic history that the banning or total prohibition came gradually.initially in the Quran it was a form of condemnation that lacked a "binding" prohibition.later,the words were stronger.if we as human beings are to apply the logic found in the OT on alcohol,we will never attain success as you suggested that both ways can lead to success.both ways cannot lead to success.one can lead close to success while the other (islam) leads to complete success.obviously as our jewish friend has explained kings and the priests and those when in the temple are not allowed to drink as mentioned in the OT plainly.so the ordinary people that are not in a holy place of worship would later come out and drink.for people who aim at the highest peak of spirituality and leadership and with every individual wanting the best for himself and wanting to be "king" himself,it is only reasonable that he starts behaving like a king himself and learn how to drop the habit of the lay people.therefore and i hope my jewish friends would agree with me,it is best and "holier" for both the individual and society to be free from alcohol in any quantity no matter how small.do not prolong the topic nor the problem."nip it in the bud"!!!

[IloveImamHussain]

kadhim, on 02 December 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

Boston Jew is making a patient effort to explain the points to you, and has done so well.

Boston Jew has indeed offered a reasonable explanation.

However, it does not seem to be a direct allowance from the scriptures which clearly express a loathing for alcohol.  It seems more likely that it is based on rabbinical interpretation, because all indications in the OT verses that have been quoted seem to suggest a very negative assessment of alcohol.

And as Mehdi Soldier has pointed out, Islam did not forbid alcohol until the last two years of the Prophet's' life. However, there is evidence to suggest that our Holy Prophet and his close followers never ever had a drop.

kadhim, on 02 December 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

Either way strictly followed to a T will lead to success.

I think there is no real evidence to suggest that this is the case.

And logically speaking, while we can be sure that complete abstinence would lead to success, we cannot say that with any certainty even for moderate use, which always has the potential to advance into uncontrolled  intemperance. We all know people who started out as moderate drinkers, but when they had to deal with disappointment or sorrow, that regimen would not stand.

Abstinence, clearly, is by far the safer option - from all sorts of indiscretions - domestic violence, murder, sexual assault and the like.

[Son of Placid]

I will agree that abstinence is the safer option, but...

Quote

scriptures which clearly express a loathing for alcohol

is a clearly bias interpretation of what has been presented. A more accurate statement would include "expresses warnings against abuse of". The NT expresses the condemnation of abuse.

Maybe we are all guilty of interpreting the scriptures of others by our own deen, but I believe what Kadhim was trying to say was tolerance.

[PeaceLoving]

IloveImamHussain, on 03 December 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

We all know people who started out as moderate drinkers, but when they had to deal with disappointment or sorrow, that regimen would not stand.

Good point !

And while that danger does exist also for non-drinkers, it does so to a much lesser degree.

It is much easier to consume more bottles when drowned in sorrow for a moderate drinker than for a non-drinker.

[kadhim]

Quote

Boston Jew has indeed offered a reasonable explanation.

However, it does not seem to be a direct allowance from the scriptures which clearly express a loathing for alcohol. It seems more likely that it is based on rabbinical interpretation, because all indications in the OT verses that have been quoted seem to suggest a very negative assessment of alcohol.

No, not at all. The Jewish scriptures, and tradition express much as Boston said. Drunkenness and excess are condemned, not consumption period. Listen, understand me: I haven't touched the stuff myself in over 8 years. But you can't just skim and cherry pick someone else's books for 5 minutes and try to tell them what they say.

Quote

I think there is no real evidence to suggest that this is the case.

Really? Actually, no, it's basically indisputable by definition that if you don't drink to drunkenness, you will generally not experience any problems from it.

Most people experience no significant issues with being able to moderate themselves, after a certain period of youthful excess.
So for the strong majority, "enjoy in moderation but don't be excessive with it" is reasonable and quite practicable advice.

That said, that minority that seems predisposed to alcoholism and chronic abuse (and evidence is strong that there is a predisposition, evidently genetic and heritable) do get into a tremendous amount of costly trouble. There is a social cost. For these people abstaining is the only way. Interestingly, the rule for this minority can be seen though as a special case of the general Jewish religious teaching "drinking is OK if you're moderate." Well, if you can't be moderate, drinking is not OK for you. So the same general advice works for both.

Now our tradition takes a more precautionary approach, and there are strong arguments for this from a social perspective.

However, the point was that from an individual perspective, the Jewish and Christian teaching of partaking, but with moderation, gives similar results on the individual level if the prescription is followed as written.

The impact of those who refuse to follow the advice or of those who are weak on the general society in which individuals are situated however is the argument for our position.

[Son of Placid]

PeaceLoving, on 04 December 2010 - 12:04 AM, said:

Good point !

And while that danger does exist also for non-drinkers, it does so to a much lesser degree.

It is much easier to consume more bottles when drowned in sorrow for a moderate drinker than for a non-drinker.

Agreed, then again I no longer associate with with my "moderate drinking" inlaws as moderate has turned into constant, and it's not only sorrows, but celebrations, or any other excuse.

For the non-drinkers there are doctors who can prescribe chemicals. I wonder what would be said of modern medicine back then.

[IloveImamHussain]

kadhim, on 04 December 2010 - 12:04 AM, said:

But you can't just skim and cherry pick someone else's books for 5 minutes and try to tell them what they say.

Exactly so. I quite agree that we should not skim the scriptures of others.

And indeed the whole point of my post was that the literal sense of the verses quoted did not seem to be very encouraging for the promotion (or even acceptance) of alcohol.

At least that is how I read those verses. And I do concede that my reading could always be subjective.

I was merely suggesting the possibility of the conclusions being rabbinical interpretations, rather than directly scriptural injunctions.   That is all.

kadhim, on 04 December 2010 - 12:04 AM, said:

It's basically indisputable by definition that if you don't drink to drunkenness, you will generally not experience any problems from it.

I think the scope of damage might depend on the breadth of your analysis.

As just one example, if I am a moderate drinker, I would have less of a chance convincing my children of its ills than if I am no drinker at all.  I guess there are others.

While Judaism is not based on the Quran, the Quran does give its reasons for its decision, claiming that alcohol does more harm than good.  

The point - more harm than good - is made about drinking, not just excessive drinking.

So there might be things that you and I are not quite aware of.

kadhim, on 04 December 2010 - 12:04 AM, said:

Now our tradition takes a more precautionary approach, and there are strong arguments for this from a social perspective.

The Quran is very clear on the subject.

[kadhim]

Quote

The Quran is very clear on the subject.

In interfaith discussions, we cannot invoke "the Quran says so" to compare the worthiness of our stance with respect to that of others,

[rotten_coconut]

Btw, correct me if I'm wrong, there's a hadith states that God never permit the consumption of alcohol in any commandments from any prophets. Hopefully there's a knowledgeable member that can pinpoint us to the hadith.

BostonJew, is the permission of alcohol in Judaism only limited to wine (or alcohol coming from grapes) or any kind of alcohol?

[BostonJew]

rotten_coconut, on 06 December 2010 - 04:56 AM, said:

BostonJew, is the permission of alcohol in Judaism only limited to wine (or alcohol coming from grapes) or any kind of alcohol?

Any kind of alcohol.  For ritual purposes, it must generally be wine, but there's no reason a Jew can't have a drink of beer or liquor, and in fact it is quite traditional for Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews to have a small glass of schnapps or rye whiskey at social gatherings, including at synagogue after services.  I don't know as well the practices of Sephardi (Mediterranean) or Mizrachi (Eastern) Jews but I suspect they enjoy the local beverage - for example, ouzo in Greece.  My grandfather of blessed memory used to have a small nip before dinner every night.

Update: you may find this article interesting:

L'Chaim! Toast the holidays as more and more liquor manufacturers receive the kosher certification of approval.
http://www.jpost.com....aspx?id=198496

("L'chaim!" means "To life!"  It is the standard Jewish toast and, some wags would say, a nutshell summary of how Judaism differs from some other religions.)

Edited by BostonJew, 08 December 2010 - 11:47 PM.