134 replies to this topic

[Suleman786]

FYI

I have 5 books on Nusayris and their secret text.

I have been debating with them for years now and have compiled books (including their secret text - 16 pages).
What I need from you guys are responses from the Quran against them OR Hadiths that actually say Nusayri was corrupt. I have lots but its always better for second opinions. These text mentioned heaps (Especially the book by Matti Moosa) but i cant find the mentioned hadith books online.
If you know which way to lead me please assist.

THE BOOKS ARE

Journal of the American Oriental Society – Volume 8 –
“The Book of Sulaimans First Ripe Fruit
Disclosing the Mysteries of the Nursairian Religion”
STARTS PAGE 6 to 87
1864
By Edward E Salisbury

Secret Sects of Syria and the Lebanon
A consideration of the Origin, creed and religious ceremonies, and their connection with
and influence upon modern freemasonry
Chapter 1
“The Root Principles of All Freemasonry” Page 95
Chapter 16
“The Religious System of the Nusairis”
STARTS PAGE 101 TO 140
1922
By Bernard H Springett

Asian Mysteries
“The Ansaireeh or Nursairis of Syria”
STARTS PAGE 145 TO 443
1860
By Rev, Samuel Lyde

“Kitabu’l-Mecmu’u’nun Tercumesi”
STARTS PAGE 447-457
Professor Dr Ahmet Turan

Extremist Shiites: the ghulat sects
1998
STARTS PAGE 458 - 682
Matti Moosa

PLEASE NOTE
THE 5 Books are Summarised “Removal of all unnecessary chapters”
Table of Contents for all books still remain but only relevant Chapters are available

ALSO the sectret text starts at page 13.

Book compilation can be found by clicking below

NUSAYRI 5 BOOKS

or

http://www.scribd.com/doc/55596306

[al-Hilli]

FullyTabooly, on 17 May 2011 - 12:01 AM, said:

What I need from you guys are responses from the Quran against them OR Hadiths that actually say Nusayri was corrupt. I have lots but its always better for second opinions. These text mentioned heaps (Especially the book by Matti Moosa) but i cant find the mentioned hadith books online.
If you know which way to lead me please assist.

the shiite scholars believe muhammed ibn nusayr was a ghali due to his exegerrated beleifs. we know that he was a student of the 11th imam (a.s)
and later on formed a group where he gathered many learned men to spread their so called batin beleif from the imams (a.s). Ibn nusayr had a student
called muhammed bin jundeb who was the teacher of abi abdullah bin hamden al khasibi (who formed the nusayri/alawi sect).

you will find that khasibi narrated alot of hadiths through muhammed bin nusayr also muhammed bin sinan, mufadhal bin umar and abul khattab. Firstly
abul khattab has been cursed by the 6th imam, and mufadhal and ibn sinan have alot of contraversy around them, some say they were weak and had ghulat
beleifs. In regards to Ibn nusayr it is said that the imam (a.s) also cursed him, hes a couple of statements below.


- in Kitab ad-Du`afa of Ibn al-Ghada'iri :

35 – Muhammad b. Nusayr.  Abu Muhammad b. Talha b. `Ali b. `Abdullah b. `Alalah said to me: Abu Bakr al-Ja`abi said to us: Muhammad b. Nusayr wasa from the virtuous folks of Basra in knowledge.  And he was weak.  He started the Nusayriyya, and to him they are attributed

-also in Rijal al-Kashshi :

قال نصر بن الصباح : الحسن بن محمد المعروف بابن بابا و محمد بن نصير النميري و فارس بن حاتم القزويني لعن هؤلاء الثلاثة علي بن محمد العسكري (عليه السلام).

999 – Nasr b. as-Sabah said: al-Hasan b. Muhammad, known as Ibn Baba, and Muhammad b. Nusayr an-Numayri and Faris b. Hatim al-Qazwini,
`Ali b. Muhammad al-`Askari عليه السلام cursed those three.

قال أبو عمرو : و قالت فرقة بنبوة محمد بن نصير النميري، و ذلك أنه ادعى أنه نبي رسول و أن علي بن محمد العسكري (عليه السلام) أرسله،و كان يقول بالتناسخ و الغلو في أبا الحسن (عليه السلام) ، و يقول فيه بالربوبية، و يقول بإباحة المحارم، و يحلل نكاح الرجال بعضهم بعضا في أدبارهم، و يقول إنه من الفاعل و المفعول به أحد الشهوات و الطيبات، و إن الله لم يحرم شيئا من ذلك، و كان محمد بن موسى بن الحسن بن فرات يقوى أسبابه و يعضده، و ذكر أنه رأى بعض الناس محمد بن نصير عيانا، و غلام له على ظهره، و أنه عاتبه على ذلك، فقال إن هذا من اللذات و هو من التواضع لله و ترك التجبر، و افترق الناس فيه و بعده فرقا.

1000 - Abu `Amr said: And a sect professed the prophethood of Muhammad b. Nusayr an-Numayri, and that is that he declared that he was a messenger prophet and that `Ali b. Muhammad al-`Askari عليه السلام had sent him.  And he would profess (the belief in) reincarnation and ghulw in regards to Abu al-Hasan عليه السلام, and he professed Lordship in regards to him.  And he professed the legalization of relatives, and allowed for men to have sexual intercourse with one another in their posteriors (i.e. anal intercourse).  And he says that the active partner and receptive partner with it is one of the desires and good things, and that Allah forbade nothing of that.  And Muhammad b. Musa b. al-Hasan b. Furat would strengthen his reasons and assist him.  And it is mentioned that one of the people saw Muhammad b. Nusayr exhausted and a slave boy of his was upon his back, and that he reprimanded him for that.  So he said: Verily this is from the pleasures and it is humbleness to Allah and the abandonment of arrogance.  And the people separated in regards to him and after him as a sect.

-http://www.tashayyu.org/rijal

in my opinion i have a problem with one of the issues discussed in the statement above because if you read through nusayri/alawi texts ibn nusayr never declared prophethood
he only declared himself to be the bab (door) to imam al-askari (a.s). other men around the time also professed to be the bab. However according to shiite scholars hes a liar ,
but according to the alawi/nusayr scholars such as khasibi and qasim al-tabarani say he was truly the bab.

wa salam

Edited by al-Hilli, 17 May 2011 - 05:59 AM.

[AitchEss]

FullyTabooly, on 17 May 2011 - 12:01 AM, said:

FYI

I have 5 books on Nusayris and their secret text.

I have been debating with them for years now and have compiled books (including their secret text - 16 pages).

Thanks alot

[Suleman786]

your welcome.

please note due to its 682 pages it takes a while to load

[AitchEss]

FullyTabooly, on 23 May 2011 - 05:45 AM, said:

your welcome.

please note due to its 682 pages it takes a while to load

Just finished reading them those scanned pages were taking a toll on me towered the end I just wanted to ask, you couldn't get your hands on this book could you?:

Al-Husayn ibn Hamdân al-Khasîbî: A Historical Biography of the Founder of the Nusayrî- 'Alawite Sect" written by Yaron Friedman and Yaron Frieman

I have tried but I can't get access maybe u will have better luck.

[Suleman786]

AitchEss, on 25 May 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:

Just finished reading them those scanned pages were taking a toll on me towered the end I just wanted to ask, you couldn't get your hands on this book could you?:

Al-Husayn ibn Hamdân al-Khasîbî: A Historical Biography of the Founder of the Nusayrî- 'Alawite Sect" written by Yaron Friedman and Yaron Frieman

I have tried but I can't get access maybe u will have better luck.

http://www.scribd.co...ri-Alawite-Sect

or click link below

Al-Husayn ibn Hamdan al-Khasibi: A Historical Biography of the Founder of the Nusayri Alawite Sect

Sincere apologies or the lateness of my response. I very rarely get a chance to get on the pc

[AitchEss]

FullyTabooly, on 29 May 2011 - 07:37 AM, said:

Sincere apologies for the lateness of my response. I very rarely get a chance to get on the pc

Not a problem i appreciate it, do you have any other books regarding the alawiya you would recommend reading ?

[Suleman786]

There is but its in French.
HISTORY AND RELIGION OF Nosairis BY RENE Dussaud. The french version is available on line.http://www.archive.org/stream/histoireetrelig00dussgoog/histoireetrelig00dussgoog_djvu.txt
What you can do (so you can read the text is)
1, open google translate http://translate.google.com/#
2. copy and paste big chunks of the book into google translate and it will give you an extremely good translation

I have a physical copy of the translated version, but due to copyright I cant paste that online.

The best book by far however is the  "The Book of Sulaimans First Ripe Fruit Disclosing the Mysteries of the Nursairian Religion” (the first 83 or so pages of the first link I provided earlier). It is a book written from a non-biased perspective and is the intial study conducted on Nusayri Religion.

If you have any questions regarding the Nusayri Sect, You can ask me. I know more about the Nusayris then the Nusayris themselves.

[AitchEss]

FullyTabooly, on 29 May 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:

The best book by far however is the  "The Book of Sulaimans First Ripe Fruit Disclosing the Mysteries of the Nursairian Religion” (the first 83 or so pages of the first link I provided earlier). It is a book written from a non-biased perspective and is the intial study conducted on Nusayri Religion.

I have a copy of this but its all in arabic with no translation i have problems understanding it, english being my mother tongue
if u have a fully translated version that would be great.

FullyTabooly, on 29 May 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:

If you have any questions regarding the Nusayri Sect, You can ask me. I know more about the Nusayris then the Nusayris themselves.

Haha i wouldnt be surprised

[Suleman786]

I provided the link earlier. It Is the first 83 pages of the first link. You can also find it on the university of Toronto website. Search for volume 8 journal and it comes up.
Like I said however go to the scribd link
http://www.scribd.com/doc/55596306
And read the first 83 pages.

[Chloe]

As Salaam alaykom

Peace and blessings upon our beloved Muhammad ibn Abdullah, rasool Allah and his pure family, guardians of the truth and lanterns of light and justice...

dear faithful believers of ahlul bayt,
Historically, much has been written regarding the Alawis and many theories have been put forward. Unfortunately most accounts have been false or inaccurate.
ALAWIS   are  MUSLIM, Alawis have always and  always will remain steadfast in their faith and committment to bayat al-ghadir, that remains as important to them today as it was that very day when the prophet  appointed Imam Ali as the righful and divinely inspired Imam, khalifat of the Prophet.

We Believe in the name of  Allah the most gracious and most merciful, Muhammad his Apostle and Messenger, And the Holy Quran...Ali Amir al momineen,  Al-Salat, Al-Sawm, al Zakat and if they managed to muster the funds and supplies to make the Hajj pilgrimage.( inshallah )

Wa salam alaykom

[ShiaBen]

Wow.......looking back in hindsight and observing the Alawites today and their modern lifestyles.

It seems apparent, that they physically exist today as people, but their own unusual beliefs and traditions are abandoned.

I don't know what to make of this. From what I'm perceiving at least, it seems like the majority of Alawites are disinterested in Islam almost altogether. And just want to live secular lives. While in Turkey, the Alevis, a similar kind of group, has a good portion that are also living secular lives, while another portion with the help/encouragement of Iranian Shiite clergy and missionaries, are being persuaded to join the 12ver fold.

If I had to make a prediction, the Alawites will become extinct as both a cultural group and a religious one. And they'll just melt into the Sunni Syrian population (because of high intermarriage), which would homogenize the country's Muslims into one big Sunni cluster.

While on the other hand, the Turkish Alevis will be around for a longer period of time for the obvious reasons: Sunni Turks have less animosity toward Alevis since these guys never ruled them to begin with (unlike Alawites). On top of that, culturally, Sunni Turkic beliefs are not conflicting with Shiite 12ver Imams. The big Azerbaijani Shiite immigrant population, investment of 12ver Shiite mosques, and support from Iranian Shiite clergy and missionaries, would keep Shiite influence in Turkey healthy for a longer period of time.

[Chloe]

Believe me, our beliefs and traditions are still very strong, Fair Enough Our lifestyles probably make people contradict our beliefs but Allah (swt) knows what is in our hearts and our intentions.

Imam Ali son of Abu Talib (asws) said: Do not force your children to behave like you, for surely they have been created for a time which is different to your time

We try not to take anyone outside of our faith being sunni or a shia ( Very rare that we take anyone outside our faith) But thats their choice if they do so (nobody is perfect) and honestly I thank Allah(swt) for being born into this faith.
I believe (not on anyone elses behalf) You dont have to externally show your faith in order to show your belief in Allah (swt) its what lies within the heart...

However Imam Ali did not come to power immediately after the death of the Prophet. On the contrary he was prevented from achieving power, and had but a few loyal supporters, having discovered that many of those who had been converted to Islam had only embraced it externally, without true belief in their hearts, S.J Hussain
Vol V No. 3 & 4 , 1400

And al'humdillah we've built a campus for high school students as well as a primary private college.... we've actually come a long way...

LOL and throw your predictions in the Rubbish! jk

[ShiaBen]

Oh sorry I didn't see your previous post above mine. So you're an Alawite? Interesting. Yes you're very right about not accepting foreigners outside of the in-group (this was part of the tradition of Alawites as well as some other Muslim groups in different countries). By any chance, do you see any differences between Alawites 60 years ago and today? Are they still the same? Do they hold their culture and values very strongly? Is there any significant differences in mentality between Alawites in rural Syria, Alawites in big cities of Syria, and Alawites in Turkey when it comes to lifestyle or religion? It's nice to have you on the threads =)

I'll throw my predictions in the garbage since you say many of them are still strict today (I didn't know this, I thought after many decades maybe economic and political pressure, Western culture, and globalization would put lots of pressure on the Alawites to conform and accept outside culture and influence.

[south-lebanon]

Chloe, on 06 January 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

Believe me, our beliefs and traditions are still very strong, Fair Enough Our lifestyles probably make people contradict our beliefs but Allah (swt) knows what is in our hearts and our intentions.

Imam Ali son of Abu Talib (asws) said: Do not force your children to behave like you, for surely they have been created for a time which is different to your time

  Did imam Ali say this? is there any sources, seems strange to me because im of the opinion Islam is against change for the sake of different "times",  actually the hadith reminds me of a brilliant poem written by the great Lebanese poet kalil jebran.

what do you think:

Edited by south-lebanon, 06 January 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[Chloe]

Firstly i didnt open that video but after i had written my post i saw it on the website on al.islam so i copied it..... but thanks!

By any chance, do you see any differences between Alawites 60 years ago and today? Are they still the same? Do they hold their culture and values very strongly? Is there any significant differences in mentality between Alawites in rural Syria, Alawites in big cities of Syria, and Alawites in Turkey when it comes to lifestyle or religion? It's nice to have you on the threads =)

LOL  dont know about 60yrs ago but i can tell u about that theyrs  past 20 havent (for me) our faith is still the same (fasting, prayers,(not in mosques)and give to charity)I wouldnt know about turkey and as for lifestyles,we praise god that were doing well living in australia and our faith remains the same...... And from what i know we are the most humble, honest and down to earth people...We dont judge and we respect others being jewish, christian or muslim (sunni/shia).....And thank u im learning so much and its good to see others opinons and point of views... ( not talking on anyone elses behalf except my own)

im still a new member here so please bare with me, for the way i post  lol

[Suleman786]

Chloe, on 07 January 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Firstly i didnt open that video but after i had written my post i saw it on the website on al.islam so i copied it..... but thanks!

By any chance, do you see any differences between Alawites 60 years ago and today? Are they still the same? Do they hold their culture and values very strongly? Is there any significant differences in mentality between Alawites in rural Syria, Alawites in big cities of Syria, and Alawites in Turkey when it comes to lifestyle or religion? It's nice to have you on the threads =)

LOL  dont know about 60yrs ago but i can tell u about that theyrs  past 20 havent (for me) our faith is still the same (fasting, prayers,(not in mosques)and give to charity)I wouldnt know about turkey and as for lifestyles,we praise god that were doing well living in australia and our faith remains the same...... And from what i know we are the most humble, honest and down to earth people...We dont judge and we respect others being jewish, christian or muslim (sunni/shia).....And thank u im learning so much and its good to see others opinons and point of views... ( not talking on anyone elses behalf except my own)

im still a new member here so please bare with me, for the way i post  lol

I can prove many aspects of what you said to be wrong. Care to debate?

[south-lebanon]

FullyTabooly, on 20 January 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

I can prove many aspects of what you said to be wrong. Care to debate?

So your going to debate her that she dosn't pray or fast or pay charity

Chloe, on 07 January 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

im still a new member here so please bare with me, for the way i post  lol

Alhamdullah, its good to know you pray, fast and give charity, going off that suggests straight away that you have alot more emen than many other muslims running around out there.

Just a pointer i know your new here but if you want to reply to someone, press the "quote" button located on the bottom right hand corner that is located for each individual comment that is posted.

[Suleman786]

Quran states spefically that if you are on the wrong track and hold associates to Allah all your praying, fasting and charity are to no avail and are void. I'm going to prove she is on a track that the Quran states will end up in hell fire. I do not judge but I'm merely stating what the Quran states.
If she can prove me wrong then let the curse of Allah be upon me.

I was born a Nusayri and evetually became the designated translator of the Nusayri secretive text from their highest Turkish scholars. I was also the ancestorial researcher of the Nusayris for 12 years before accepting the translator position. I have debated privately the highest Imams of the Nusayris from both Syria and Turkey. 

I have also written a book about them http://www.scribd.co...ook-compilation

This includes their secretive text (starts on page 13)

I guarantee I know more about the Nusayri religion then the highest Nusayri scholars. I can make this guarantee because I have personally questioned them and humbled them

Would you care to debate now and allow me to show you that your going on the wrong path?

[south-lebanon]

FullyTabooly, on 21 January 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

Quran states spefically that if you are on the wrong track and hold associates to Allah all your praying, fasting and charity are to no avail and are void. I'm going to prove she is on a track that the Quran states will end up in hell fire. I do not judge but I'm merely stating what the Quran states.
If she can prove me wrong then let the curse of Allah be upon me.

I was born a Nusayri and evetually became the designated translator of the Nusayri secretive text from their highest Turkish scholars. I was also the ancestorial researcher of the Nusayris for 12 years before accepting the translator position. I have debated privately the highest Imams of the Nusayris from both Syria and Turkey.

I have also written a book about them http://www.scribd.co...ook-compilation

This includes their secretive text (starts on page 13)

I guarantee I know more about the Nusayri religion then the highest Nusayri scholars. I can make this guarantee because I have personally questioned them and humbled them

Would you care to debate now and allow me to show you that your going on the wrong path?

Brother,  im sure it wouldn't take much for any learned shia to proove to any muslim where they have strayed, whether it was to Youseff alqardawi or to an average allawite.

However i would rather you not call it a debate and perhaps enter a more gentle dialog with this person thats here to learn, i know about the issues with allawites, but as 12ers we must try to reason with them and bring them back to our path which history states they moved away from due to fears of sunni persucution, their are allawites here in Australia that have also begun to understand their true roots and have started to research the truth, and this was done by not attacking their religion but by reaching out to them through common understanding.

The majority the muslim population of Sham was once upon a time shia. most were forced to convert to sunnis, while others deviated, and the 12ers moved to jabal3amal where they lived under persucution and neglect by the ruling authorities because of the pious views they held that the ruling sunnis always saw as a threat.

In these days of information we have the capacity to mend the damage that was caused through segregtaion and oppression in a more subtle opproach, we should try and not allienate those who are genuinly seeking truth. Just like you have seen the light im sure there are many others out there who are also capable of seeing the light.

[Suleman786]

Firstly my friend I am not Shia. I hold them in the greatest respect but only a follower of the Quran and the Ahlul Bayt.
My friend there is no such thing as bringing Nusayris on the right path by subtle Measures. They are passionate and when you can prove them wrong and show that their whole life and their ancestors lives were on the wrong path it always turns into a debate.
I have dealt and debated them for a good 10 years now. I have spoken from their highest scholars to those who know nothing about the religion.
It is always a debate. In fact in their religious text it states specifically to protect the religion with any means necessary.
But for you my fried let's call it a nice gathering.
Again I ask, would she like for us to have a nice gathering in order for her to learn her religion?

[south-lebanon]

Ok, i personally have spoken to about 5 allawites in my life on the subject of imam Ali's(as) position being of greater than just an imam and how they supposedly licken him to Allah(astagfarrallah).  each allawite  person i brought up the subject with rejected this as lies and rumours, which they believe was started by sunnis because they disliked the way they lived.
I personally felt i had no option but to take their word for it because i myself know alot of wahabis/sunnis claim lies about shias beliefs to be true. So i have always thought of them as 12ers like myself, but very secular.
Do you believe these guys are lieing to me, or do they genuinly not know the truth of their religion??

[Suleman786]

in there secretive text, chapter 4 it is specific that imam Ali is Imam on earth but Allah in heaven. The religion is based on sir (secret). It is the first word taught in the religion by any means necessary. They believe lying to protect is not a lie but a sevap

Put it this way
Imam Ali created Prophet Muhammad, Prophet Muhammad created salman al farsi, salman al farsi created the 5 inflammables.

Even the Bimillah in Nusayri is considered to be stating these 3.

Bisim Allah - That is Ali, Rahmani - this is Muhammad, Rahim - this is salman al farsi

Do you see the trinity here?

I can tell you there beliefs that will leave your amazed.

100s of beliefs that go against the Quran

Like little ones were alcohol is a blessing to them and a cure to everyone else, to really digusting one where for example Fatimah the daughter of the Prophet was a male named Fatir.

Edited by FullyTabooly, 22 January 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[AitchEss]

FullyTabooly, on 21 January 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

Quran states spefically that if you are on the wrong track and hold associates to Allah all your praying, fasting and charity are to no avail and are void. I'm going to prove she is on a track that the Quran states will end up in hell fire. I do not judge but I'm merely stating what the Quran states.
If she can prove me wrong then let the curse of Allah be upon me.

I was born a Nusayri and evetually became the designated translator of the Nusayri secretive text from their highest Turkish scholars. I was also the ancestorial researcher of the Nusayris for 12 years before accepting the translator position. I have debated privately the highest Imams of the Nusayris from both Syria and Turkey.

I have also written a book about them http://www.scribd.co...ook-compilation

This includes their secretive text (starts on page 13)

Hi again, thats very interesting which book did you write ?

Edited by AitchEss, 16 February 2012 - 09:59 PM.

[ANJUM442]

very detailed article on alawities.jazakallah