26 replies to this topic

[saira shah]

i have been observing since childhood that Allah seldom grants any prayer,,,,, there are so many conditions for fulfilment of a prayer,,, so to say it happens that 1 time your wish will be granted out of 10 times and 9 times refused,, and in the same way prayers of other people are granted who are followers of other religions,,,, we are asked to have 100% faith in what we are asking from Allah ,,, if a non believer asks with 100% surety from an idol still his wish is granted,, so whats the difference,, i feel that some times our important prayers are refused without any reason and some times a very silly desire is fulfilled very imeediately,,, im praying for my health for last 15 years but no results, i am so much disappointed that i dont beilieve in prayers any more

Edited by saira shah, 18 July 2010 - 04:01 PM.

[eThErEaL]

saira shah, on 18 July 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

i have been observing since childhood that Allah seldom grants any prayer,,,,, there are so many conditions for fulfilment of a prayer,,, so to say it happens that 1 time your wish will be granted out of 10 times and 9 times refused,, and in the same way prayers of other people are granted who are followers of other religions,,,, we are asked to have 100% faith in what we are asking from Allah ,,, if a non believer asks with 100% surety from an idol still his wish is granted,, so whats the difference

  I truly believe that all prayers are answered without any condition whatsoever.  first of all, whatever one wishes for (whether one realizes it or not) is God.  secondly, God exists necessarily and eternally.  Therefore everyone's wish is answered by the mere fact that God is God.  If one desires and wants a beautiful flower, it is because one desires its beauty which belongs truly and only to God (the All-Beautiful).  Because everyone desires God, and because God always exists, everyone's desire is always fulfilled.  

Even a person praying to an idol; he gets his wish answered because he is in fact praying to God through the idol.  But he will get punished for that on the day of judgment since God commanded him not to worship Him through his own method (through things he himself has created)  Instead God commanded us to worship Him through whatever He asked us to worship Him through (through God's own method prescribed to us).  

So when a person asks God for something which God commanded him not to ask for (through revelation), then he will be punished for that.  When a person prays to God for money and becomes unhappy when he doesn't get money, then this shows that what he really prayed to was not God, but the money.  a sign that one prayed to God for something is that whether he gets what he prayed for or not, it doesnt make a difference to him.  and whatever he prays for, should be commanded by God (through revelation), otherwise he shouldn't pray for it.  so when one prays to God for knowledge because God asked us to say "Rabbi Zidni Ilman", then he is praying to God.

[yahossein]

saira shah, on 18 July 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

i have been observing since childhood that Allah seldom grants any prayer,,,,, there are so many conditions for fulfilment of a prayer,,, so to say it happens that 1 time your wish will be granted out of 10 times and 9 times refused,, and in the same way prayers of other people are granted who are followers of other religions,,,, we are asked to have 100% faith in what we are asking from Allah ,,, if a non believer asks with 100% surety from an idol still his wish is granted,, so whats the difference,, i feel that some times our important prayers are refused without any reason and some times a very silly desire is fulfilled very imeediately,,, im praying for my health for last 15 years but no results, i am so much disappointed that i dont beilieve in prayers any more

Salamoalaikom sister,

   Sister life is much much more complex than you think. Allah (swt) has infinite wisdom regarding all 6 billion people currently living on this planet. A wisdom that we cannot even fathom

"Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?" [29:2]

[3:179] "GOD is not to leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the bad from the good"

[2:214] "Do you expect to enter Paradise without being tested like those before you?"

2:216]   "... But you may dislike something which is good for you, and you may like something which is bad for you. GOD knows while you do not know"

When bad things happen to someone it is usually one of two things, either a punishment or a test (4:79, 42:30, 3:165).

The disbelievers may not be punished in this life and allowed to transgress for a while to accumulate more sins and prepare for their humiliating defeat in the Hereafter. The believers on the other hand may be punished quickly in this life to bring them back to the right path, give them the chance to repent and correct what wrong they may have done. What seems to be a punishment for us or the people around us may just be a test to polish our qualities, expose our weakness and give us a chance to work on it and correct it, and also to see if we belong to those lucky ones who will steadfastly persevere while submitting to God ALONE and accepting His judgment in this life and in the Hereafter.

Throughout the Quran God gives a special rank in Heaven for those who steadfastly persevere, (2:54, 2:153, 2:155, 2:177, 2:249,  2:250, 3:17, 3:142, 3:146,  3:186, 3:200, 4:25,  7:126,   8:46, 8:66,  10:109, 11:11,11:49, 11:115, 12:90, 13:22, 13:24, 16:42, 16:96, 16:110, 16:126, 16:127, 18:28, 20:130, 21:85,  22:35, 23:111, 25:75, 28:54, 28:80, 29:59, 30:60, 31:17, 32:24, 33:35,  38:17, 38:44,  39:10, 40:55, 40:77, 41:35, 42:43,  46:35, 47:31, 76:12,  90:17, 103:3).

Remember that people do not steadfastly persevere on good life, good health, good wealth, victory, happy times, but they do it for an adversity and/or  lack of any of the above. We have to remember that death is not by itself a punishment as all of us will die, but death of someone can be a punishment or a test for the living others to see how they can accept God's judgment and submit to Him in the good times and in the bad times, under all circumstances. Those who go through their test while steadfastly persevering are the most fortunate believers, they are the lucky ones despite their difficulties in this life and their perseverance in face of all the ignorant ones who do not understand God's system.

[41:35] None can attain this except those who steadfastly persevere. None can attain this except those who are extremely fortunate.


The Test

Testing the believers will vary. It may be mild and light or hard and exacting. Sickness, fear, hunger, poverty, death, loss of power or control, losing a battle, failing an examination, failing a marriage, failing a business, losing a job or a friend…etc. are just few examples. Testing may also be in the form of blessings, wealth, health, knowledge, children, family, security, peace…etc. What to do with these blessings is a great test. The test may also be given, by testing us by
one another. The true believers submit to God in all cases and under all circumstances.

[2:155] We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast"

[8:28] You should know that your money and your children are a test, and that GOD possesses a great recompense.

[3:186] You will certainly be tested, through your money and your lives, and you will hear from those who received the scripture, and form idol worshippers, a lot of insult. If you steadfastly persevere and lead a righteous life, this will prove the strength of your faith.

Who will be tested?

The Quran shows us that all the believers will be tested, prophets, messengers, saints, righteous people, all will be tested.

[47:31] We will certainly put you to the test, in order to distinguish those among you who strive, and steadfastly persevere. We must expose your true qualities.

Abraham, the prophet, who was called God’s friend was put to an exacting test.

[2:124] Recall that Abraham was put to the test by his Lord, through certain commands, and he fulfilled them..

[37:105-106] "You (Abraham) have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous. That was an exacting test indeed.

Adam and Eve, were put to the test several times including expulsion from Heaven, and may have lived through the loss of their righteous son. Noah lost his son twice, first lost him as a disbeliever but still loved him, then lost him to the flood while calling on God to save him. The prophet Muhammed lost his only born son (Ibrahim) as all historical accounts mentions and was very saddened by it. Muhammed spent a great deal of his life struggling with the disbelievers going from one war to another. Exposed to killings, wounding, loss of friends and loved ones, he was truely tested. God could have won him the wars while Muhammed staying home enjoying a peaceful life of a prophet. Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Solomon, Jesus, John, Job, Jonah, and Muhammed, were all given different and difficult tests.

[38:34] "We thus put Solomon to the test; we blessed him with vast material wealth, but he steadfastly submitted."

[38:41] Remember our servant Job: he called upon his Lord, "The devil has afflicted me with hardship and pain."

The believers were tested to the maximum until shaken up.

[2:214] Do you expect to enter Paradise without being tested like those before you? They were tested with hardship and adversity, and were shaken up, until the messenger and those who believed with him said, "Where is GOD's victory?" GOD's victory is near.

When?

Since this is a test, we would not know when, where or what kind of test we might be given. We do not make the choice, God does. He is the Almighty, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Testing the believers. Expose the hypocrites

While God is testing the believers, He is also exposing the hypocrites and confusing the disbelievers and leading them on in their transgression, blundering. They do not understand God’s system and think they are right when they are dead wrong. God  gave us their example in the Quran when He talked about the Battle of the Parties
in 33:9-12, and about the hypocrites in 9:50-51. See also 3:118-120, and 22:11

[33:9-12] "O you who believe, remember GOD's blessing upon you; when soldiers attacked you, we sent upon them violent wind and invisible soldiers. GOD is Seer of everything you do.When they came from above you, and from beneath you, your eyes were terrified, your hearts ran out of patience, and you harbored unbefitting thoughts about GOD. That is when the believers were truly tested; they were severely shaken up. The hypocrites and those with doubts in their hearts said, "What GOD and His messenger promised us was no more than an illusion!" "

But what did the true believers say?

[33:22] When the true believers saw the parties (ready to attack), they said, "This is what GOD and His messenger have promised us, and GOD and His messenger are truthful." This (dangerous situation) only strengthened their faith and augmented their submission.

What should the Believers do?

[9:51] Say, "Nothing happens to us, except what GOD has decreed for us. He is our Lord and Master. In GOD the believers shall trust."

[2:156] "When an affliction befalls them, they say, "We belong to God, and to Him we are returning."

In face of adversity or hardship, the true believers are expected to submit. We are being tested to see if we are truly submitters or not, whether we submit to God during the bad times and the good times or not. God gave us the correct solution in His book, the Quran. Submitting to God, means to accept whatever God has given us or taken away from us, to steadfastly persevere and to wait for God’s victory. In practical terms, let us put it in steps;

Whenever an adversity or hardship afflict a believer, he/she should:

(1) Should not panic. God does test the believers and if He is punishing us, it is to get our attention to correct something wrong we did. He is helping us out instead of leaving us in the dark. Since we asked for our freedom, He gave it to us and it is up to us to correct any wrong doing on our own, He only points things to us and we freely chose.

(2) Check to see if he/she has got off the right path. Is he/she still worshipping God alone and following His book. Correct your path and stay with God alone, if you were not.

(3) Submit to God, by accepting what happened to you without objecting. See 2:155-157

(4) Implore God to remove the hardship or adversity. God wants us to implore Him. Do not rush an answer. God runs everything. See 40:60

(5) Steadfastly persevere, see 2:153, 2:45, 90:17, 2:177 and103:3 and this is the greatest trait of the true believers. God promised those who steadfastly persevere great recompense. See 41:35, 23:111, 22:35, 31:17 and 2:155-157.

(6) Believe that God’s promise is the truth and that victory belongs to the believers, but you have to pass your test. Victory is in the way. God’s victory is near. See 30:47, 30:60, 2:155 and 2:214

(7) There are two kinds of victories according to the Quran, victory in this life and the bigger and most important victory in the Hereafter. God has promised the believers both victories. Some of these victories my be in disguise and not apparent to other people. Other victories are obvious and clear. The true believer can identify many victories in his/her life even during the most difficult times or the time of testing. Of the many victories that the believers will see in this life, finding the right path and accepting God alone is the most important one. The believers accept whichever victory or testing comes  their way, and always strive to achieve the eternal victory in the Hereafter. 9:50-52

With the help of God and the assurance in the Quran, the true believers will make
the best out of their test or punishment and wait for God’s victory. They are absolutely sure that God’s Victory is near and that God’s victory is their reward.

(taken from submission.org)

WITH REGARDS TO THE IDOL WORSHIPPERS: (these are exerpts from ibn kathirs tafsir)

For Whoever denies the Qur'an

Allah (swt) says,


[فَذَرْنِى وَمَن يُكَذِّبُ بِهَـذَا الْحَدِيثِ]
(Then leave Me alone with such as belie this narration.) meaning, the Qur'an. This is a sever threat which means, `leave Me alone with this person; I know about him and how I will gradually punish him and increase him in his falsehood. I am giving him respite for a while, then I will seize him with a mighty and powerful punishment.' Thus, Allah (swt) says,


[سَنَسْتَدْرِجُهُم مِّنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ]
(We shall punish them gradually from directions they perceive not.) meaning, and they will not even be aware of it. Rather, they will believe that it is a noble blessing from Allah (swt), but really the same matter is actually a form of humiliation (for them). This is similar to Allah (swt)'s statement,


[أَيَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّمَا نُمِدُّهُمْ بِهِ مِن مَّالٍ وَبَنِينَ - نُسَارِعُ لَهُمْ فِى الْخَيْرَتِ بَل لاَّ يَشْعُرُونَ ]
(Do they think that in wealth and children with which We expand them, We hasten unto them with good things. Nay, but they perceive not.) (23:55,56) Allah (swt) also said,


[فَلَمَّا نَسُواْ مَا ذُكِّرُواْ بِهِ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ أَبْوَابَ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ حَتَّى إِذَا فَرِحُواْ بِمَآ أُوتُواْ أَخَذْنَـهُمْ بَغْتَةً فَإِذَا هُمْ مُّبْلِسُونَ ]
(So, when they forgot that which they had been reminded, We opened for them the gates of everything, until in the midst of their enjoyment in that which they were given, all of a sudden, We punished them, and lo! They were plunged into destruction with deep regrets and sorrows.) Therefore, Allah (swt) says here,


[وَأُمْلِى لَهُمْ إِنَّ كَيْدِى مَتِينٌ ]
(And I will grant them a respite. Verily, My plan is strong.) meaning, `I will delay them, give them respite and extend their time. Yet, this is My plan, and My plot against them.' Thus, Allah (swt) says,


[إِنَّ كَيْدِى مَتِينٌ]
(Verily, My plan is strong.) meaning, `great against whoever opposes My command, rejects My Messengers and dares to disobey Me.'


Also sister i dont know where you heard this stuff about 1/10 being granted. There is no such basis for this as far as i am aware. The best dua that i always make is "Oh Allah give what is best for me because i do not know what is best for me". We may think "oh my suffering is bad" or "oh i could really use a nice car and a house" but Allah (swt) in His infinite Wisdom sees the WHOLE picture. BOTH YOUR DUNYA (present life) AND YOUR HEREAFTER. The Akhirah is eternal. Whatever tests or trials as believers we undergo in this temporal world is nothing compared to what we are ultimately destined for which is eternal existence in the hereafter.

Edited by yahossein, 18 July 2010 - 04:45 PM.

[.InshAllah.]

eThErEaL, on 18 July 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

I truly believe that all prayers are answered without any condition whatsoever.  first of all, whatever one wishes for (whether one realizes it or not) is God.  secondly, God exists necessarily and eternally.  Therefore everyone's wish is answered by the mere fact that God is God.  If one desires and wants a beautiful flower, it is because one desires its beauty which belongs truly and only to God (the All-Beautiful).  Because everyone desires God, and because God always exists, everyone's desire is always fulfilled.  

Even a person praying to an idol; he gets his wish answered because he is in fact praying to God through the idol.  But he will get punished for that on the day of judgment since God commanded him not to worship Him through his own method (through things he himself has created)  Instead God commanded us to worship Him through whatever He asked us to worship Him through (through God's own method prescribed to us).  

So when a person asks God for something which God commanded him not to ask for (through revelation), then he will be punished for that.  When a person prays to God for money and becomes unhappy when he doesn't get money, then this shows that what he really prayed to was not God, but the money.  a sign that one prayed to God for something is that whether he gets what he prayed for or not, it doesnt make a difference to him.  and whatever he prays for, should be commanded by God (through revelation), otherwise he shouldn't pray for it.  so when one prays to God for knowledge because God asked us to say "Rabbi Zidni Ilman", then he is praying to God.

salam ethereal, hope you're well.  Some points/qs:

1. In the first paragraph you said that whatever one wishes for is God, but in the third paragraph you said a person who is praying for money is not wishing for God. Isn't that a contradiction?

2. If someone prays for a flower, even if what they are praying for in reality is God, it doesn't follow that their prayer is answered just because God exists. They're not merely asking for the object of their prayer to exist, but they are asking for it to exist within their hands.  So if someone prays for a flower, they wouldn't be satisfied if I told them that the flower exists somewhere in the world, because they want it infront of them.

3.  In the third paragraph you said that a sign that a prayer is insincere is the fact that it's not answered.  But this would mean that everyone in the world who prays for the return of the Imam is insincere, and this is not believable.  And everyone who prays for the destruction of oppressors (including the Imam aj) is insincere as oppressors still exist.  Maybe you mean that it's a sign most of the time but not always?

Quote

i have been observing since childhood that Allah seldom grants any prayer,,,,, there are so many conditions for fulfilment of a prayer,,, so to say it happens that 1 time your wish will be granted out of 10 times and 9 times refused,, and in the same way prayers of other people are granted who are followers of other religions,,,, we are asked to have 100% faith in what we are asking from Allah ,,, if a non believer asks with 100% surety from an idol still his wish is granted,, so whats the difference,, i feel that some times our important prayers are refused without any reason and some times a very silly desire is fulfilled very imeediately,,, im praying for my health for last 15 years but no results, i am so much disappointed that i dont beilieve in prayers any more

I don't believe God would answer a prayer if it's not for your own good.  You might think some of your prayers are, but that's only because you aren't all knowing.  Think of a loving mother refusing to give her child loads of sweets because its bad for him, eventhough he thinks its in his own good.  Or the mother refusing the repeated requests of her child of not making him go to school.  I believe on judgement day when God tells you how it was not in your best interest that He answers your prayers, you will be grateful for His refusal.

[blister]

Those are some powerful posts to follow but I offer the following.

God does answer prayer and there are three answers.

1. No, sometimes perhaps in desperation we ask God for things or events that would never be good for us and are at the expense of others.

2. Yes. Often our prayers are answered but not in the way we expected. God works in subtle ways and often overlooked.

3. Finally and what I think is the answer most often Wait. What we pray for is in our time but I believe God answers prayer in His time. I frequently pray for things I am not ready or prepared for and my answer that is hardest to discern is "Wait".

[eThErEaL]

.InshAllah., on 18 July 2010 - 05:07 PM, said:

1. In the first paragraph you said that whatever one wishes for is God, but in the third paragraph you said a person who is praying for money is not wishing for God. Isn't that a contradiction?

salaam.  hope you are well too .  inshallah.  thanks for your questions.  

whatever one wishes for (whether he thinks this or not, or whether he realizes this or not) is God.  This is what i mean by the first paragraph.  by the second paragraph, i am talking about what a persons intentions or realization is.  so with respect to the third paragraph i mean: One who becomes displeased with not getting money after praying to God for it in fact is praying for the money with respect to his realization or intention.  Although in reality, he is in fact only desiring God (but he doesn't realize it or intend it).  

Quote

2. If someone prays for a flower, even if what they are praying for in reality is God, it doesn't follow that their prayer is answered just because God exists. They're not merely asking for the object of their prayer to exist, but they are asking for it to exist within their hands.  So if someone prays for a flower, they wouldn't be satisfied if I told them that the flower exists somewhere in the world, because they want it infront of them.

If in reality what a person prays for is God (even if in his understanding he is praying for something other than God), then it follows that his prayer will always be answered since God exists (even if, in his understanding, his prayer was not answered).  And God is contained within our original heart (for He is closer to us than our life vein).      

Quote

Quote

3.  In the third paragraph you said that a sign that a prayer is insincere is the fact that it's not answered.  But this would mean that everyone in the world who prays for the return of the Imam is insincere, and this is not believable.  And everyone who prays for the destruction of oppressors (including the Imam aj) is insincere as oppressors still exist.  Maybe you mean that it's a sign most of the time but not always?

what i said can be put in other words in the following way:  The sign that a person prayed for something other than God (in his understanding) is that he becomes dissatisfied when he does not get the "object" in his hand.  

The point is that what one desires, one prays to.  and what one prays to, one desires.  So one should only desire what God desires.  and of course one can only desire God by knowing how God wants us to desire Him.  which is found the supplications and actions he asks us to recite or do (in the Koran and Hadith).   And the other point is that one shouldnt be dissatisfied if their wish is not granted for that would only prove that what one in fact (in his understanding) prayed to was not God, but the thing they did not get (which they are disappointed about).

[.InshAllah.]

Quote

If in reality what a person prays for is God (even if in his understanding he is praying for something other than God), then it follows that his prayer will always be answered since God exists (even if, in his understanding, his prayer was not answered). And God is contained within our original heart (for He is closer to us than our life vein).

When you say 'prays for God' do you mean prays for God to exist, or prays for proximity to God?

If the former then prayer would be meaningless, as all supplicants necessarily know that God exists.  If the latter, then there would be no difference between:

-asking God to guide me
-asking God to guide someone else
-asking God to relieve a friend's suffering

Because in all of these cases I would in reality be asking for the same thing - my guidance.  Am I right?  

If so, then how do you explain the fact that some people decrease in proximity to God after praying to Him?
And would this mean that every prayer is necessarily about myself, and therefore there is no ego-free prayer or altruistic prayer?   - Whenever the Imam [aj] prays for his Shia he is actually only praying for his own guidance?  - Whenever the Prophet [sawa] asked God to guide His Ummah he was in reality only asking for God to guide him and noone else?

thanks
ws

Edited by .InshAllah., 19 July 2010 - 01:05 PM.

[Ahmad.G]

Listen Carefully!

[url="]

Edited by Ahmad.G, 19 July 2010 - 02:40 PM.

[eThErEaL]

.InshAllah., on 19 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

When you say 'prays for God' do you mean prays for God to exist, or prays for proximity to God?

to pray for God means to pray for His manifestations to ourselves.  

Quote

If the former then prayer would be meaningless, as all supplicants necessarily know that God exists.

For humans, knowledge of God's existence, can only be through His manifestation, which are constantly replaced by new manifestations of Himself every new moment.  We are praying for a new manifestation of His existence (which are different; even though they are all manifestations of God).  

  

Quote

If the latter, then there would be no difference between:
-asking God to guide me
-asking God to guide someone else
-asking God to relieve a friend's suffering

Because in all of these cases I would in reality be asking for the same thing - my guidance.  Am I right?  

We should ask for God's manifestations the way He wants us to ask for them.  (i.e. we should recite the duas he wants us to recite, in the manner taught to us by Himself through Koran and Hadith).   Like, the "fatiha".  "or like the dua:  "rabbi zidni ilman".  "or the dua for "ones parents".  etc etc.. These duas are different but are all done for God (within a persons understanding) since these are duas that God Himself wants us to recite.  They are different inasmuch as the manifestations that we seek from God are different.  but they are the same in as much these manifestation that we seek are manifestations of the one and only God.  

Quote

Quote

  And would this mean that every prayer is necessarily about myself, and therefore there is no ego-free prayer or altruistic prayer?   - Whenever the Imam [aj] prays for his Shia he is actually only praying for his own guidance?  - Whenever the Prophet [sawa] asked God to guide His Ummah he was in reality only asking for God to guide him and noone else?

I am not quite sure what you are saying.  but i will at least say this much:
All prayers which are aimed toward God (in our understanding)  are ego-less prayers. Are all prayers aimed toward God?  yes.  But not all prayers are aimed towards God in the understanding.  This is because some people dont understand that they are in fact asking for God when they pray for a certain thing (which is in reality nothing but a manifestation of God).    What do I mean by "a prayer that is aimed toward God in one's own understanding"? A prayer that is aimed toward God (in our understanding) is a prayer that is prayed the way God wants us to pray.  So God tells us what to pray for (namely, God tells us to pray for certain of His manifestations).      

thank you
m3salama.

Edited by eThErEaL, 20 July 2010 - 01:44 AM.

[Your-Best-Friend]

saira shah, on 18 July 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

Agar Allah tumhari duain poori ker raha hey tou Woh tumhara yaqeen berha raha hey.


Agar Allah tumhari duain poori kernay mein deir ker raha hey tou Woh tumhara sabar berha raha hey.


Agar Allah tumhari duaon ka jawab nahi dey raha tou Woh tumhein aazma raha hey.

[.InshAllah.]

Quote

to pray for God means to pray for His manifestations to ourselves.

So when I ask God to remove suffering from a friend, I am asking God for a particular manifestation of Him (presumably my friend without suffering).  But it could be that my friend's suffering isn't relieved, and he continues to suffer.  If he continues to suffer, then this manifestation that I prayed for hasn't been given to me, so my dua has not been answered.

[eThErEaL]

.InshAllah., on 20 July 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

So when I ask God to remove suffering from a friend, I am asking God for a particular manifestation of Him (presumably my friend without suffering).  But it could be that my friend's suffering isn't relieved, and he continues to suffer.  If he continues to suffer, then this manifestation that I prayed for hasn't been given to me, so my dua has not been answered.

If we are asking God for that particular manifestation because He recommended or commanded us to ask for that particular manifestation then in our understanding we would not be praying for something other than God, rather we would praying for God alone.  But if we pray for a particular manifestation because we want to pray for it (out of our ego or self-interest) and not because God commanded us to pray for it, then within our understanding we would not be praying for God (even if in reality we are praying for none other than God).  

So, for the person who (within his understanding) doesn't pray for God his prayer is also not answered within his understanding (if he doesn't get what he desires).  But for the person who (within his understanding) prays for God, his prayer will always be answered since his understanding conforms with reality (the reality being that all praers are in fact answered).  What such a person desires is what God wants; and what God wants is always a reality.  So he prays a specific prayer only because God wants him to pray that prayer; this means that he is only praying to be in conformity with God; nothing else.   So if it is asked:  "what happens if he doesn't get what he desires"?  we can reply:  "'how does he not get what he desires, when what he desires is what God desires for him?. Doesn't he always get whatever God desires for him?"

Edited by eThErEaL, 20 July 2010 - 06:18 PM.

[Abdullah88]

eThErEaL, on 18 July 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

I truly believe that all prayers are answered without any condition whatsoever.  first of all, whatever one wishes for (whether one realizes it or not) is God.  secondly, God exists necessarily and eternally.  Therefore everyone's wish is answered by the mere fact that God is God.  If one desires and wants a beautiful flower, it is because one desires its beauty which belongs truly and only to God (the All-Beautiful).  Because everyone desires God, and because God always exists, everyone's desire is always fulfilled.  

Even a person praying to an idol; he gets his wish answered because he is in fact praying to God through the idol.  But he will get punished for that on the day of judgment since God commanded him not to worship Him through his own method (through things he himself has created)  Instead God commanded us to worship Him through whatever He asked us to worship Him through (through God's own method prescribed to us).  

So when a person asks God for something which God commanded him not to ask for (through revelation), then he will be punished for that.  When a person prays to God for money and becomes unhappy when he doesn't get money, then this shows that what he really prayed to was not God, but the money.  a sign that one prayed to God for something is that whether he gets what he prayed for or not, it doesnt make a difference to him.  and whatever he prays for, should be commanded by God (through revelation), otherwise he shouldn't pray for it.  so when one prays to God for knowledge because God asked us to say "Rabbi Zidni Ilman", then he is praying to God.

i vote this post the best in shiachat history! anyone wishes to contended??

Seriously etereal, what a beautiful thought.



a few words to elucidate what has been said by ethereal.

since, only god truly exists, and whatever good we see is in reality god. what evil and ignorance we see is truly not god and is non existing. So, everything good is a manifestation of god. and since man only desires good, in reality he only desires god, whether he has realized it or not.
for example,  i want to get married to this beautiful woman. So i pray to god, so that he can marry me to her. Since, we have established all good is from god, beauty too is from god. so since god is eternal and everywhere, i am in reality wanting to get married to gods beauty.
thus, in reality, even before my dua, the answer to my prayer is and was and will always be a reality. the only difference is my certainty and realization of this truth.
So lets say, i did not get married to this woman, and i am upset that my prayer was not answer. but this is not true. since the answer to my prayer has always been a reality, only thing is my lack of realization and limitation.

wsalaam

Edited by WineofLove, 20 July 2010 - 07:00 PM.

[.InshAllah.]

eThErEaL, on 20 July 2010 - 06:16 PM, said:

If we are asking God for that particular manifestation because He recommended or commanded us to ask for that particular manifestation then in our understanding we would not be praying for something other than God, rather we would praying for God alone.  But if we pray for a particular manifestation because we want to pray for it (out of our ego or self-interest) and not because God commanded us to pray for it, then within our understanding we would not be praying for God (even if in reality we are praying for none other than God).  

So, for the person who (within his understanding) doesn't pray for God his prayer is also not answered within his understanding (if he doesn't get what he desires).  But for the person who (within his understanding) prays for God, his prayer will always be answered since his understanding conforms with reality (the reality being that all praers are in fact answered).  What such a person desires is what God wants; and what God wants is always a reality.  So he prays a specific prayer only because God wants him to pray that prayer; this means that he is only praying to be in conformity with God; nothing else.   So if it is asked:  "what happens if he doesn't get what he desires"?  we can reply:  "'how does he not get what he desires, when what he desires is what God desires for him?. Doesn't he always get whatever God desires for him?"

So basically when a person of understanding asks God to relieve his friend's suffering, he actually doesn't care about his friend's suffering at all; he is only making this dua because God has asked us to pray for the sick, and for no other reason.  He has no desire that his friend's suffering is relieved; he has no empathy for his friend, but is completely indifferent, asking only because God asked him to ask.  If I've got this right, then this philosophy lacks any sense of humanity.

When good pious people ask God to relieve suffering, they sincerely want suffering to be relieved.  Suffering upsets them, just like it upset the Ahlul Bayt [a].  Pious people want dictators to be destroyed, they want oppression to stop and they want the Imam [a] to reappear.  What you're saying has the consequence of denying that pious people want any of these things.

Quote

So, for the person who (within his understanding) doesn't pray for God his prayer is also not answered within his understanding (if he doesn't get what he desires).

How is his prayer answered in any sense?  He prays for something that is not God within his understanding, but is in reality a manifestation of God, and he doesn't get this manifestation of God in the end.

[eThErEaL]

[quote name='.InshAllah.' date='20 July 2010 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1279674682' post='2074507']
So basically when a person of understanding asks God to relieve his friend's suffering, he actually doesn't care about his friend's suffering at all; he is only making this dua because God has asked us to pray for the sick, and for no other reason.  He has no desire that his friend's suffering is relieved; he has no empathy for his friend, but is completely indifferent, asking only because God asked him to ask.  If I've got this right, then this philosophy lacks any sense of humanity.

When good pious people ask God to relieve suffering, they sincerely want suffering to be relieved.  Suffering upsets them, just like it upset the Ahlul Bayt [a].  Pious people want dictators to be destroyed, they want oppression to stop and they want the Imam [a] to reappear.  What you're saying has the consequence of denying that pious people want any of these things.
[/quote]
[/quote]

If you got it right, then i would agree that this philosophy lacks any sense of humanity.  But i think you are coming to the wrong conclusions since the conclusions I have come up with are actually the complete opposite.  That is:  it is  actually the person of no understanding who prays for a sick person that doesnt really care for the sick person.  The person of no understanding in fact is just praying for himself and what comfort he is missing from the sick person --even if it is done in a very subtle and almost imperceptible way-- (since it is by definition, ego-driven).  wherever the ego is, there is self-interest (even in a very subtle way).  For example, if one's mother passes away.  the son will say that I cared for my mother, that is why I cry, miss, and am attached to her (i wish she is live now).  This is the result of attachment to something.  This is dissatisfaction.  and the only cause for this dissatisfaction is the ego or self-interest.  the reality is that the son doesnt really care for the mother but only himself.  and wherever the ego is, there is no God.  but wherever God is, there is no self-interest.  One who truly was concerned for the mother, one who truly cared without any self-interest, would have showed the love and care for the mother the exact same way regardless of weather she was alive or dead.  This is because the respect given to the mother (without any self-interest) is in fact an eternal respect, since it is a respect given to God since the mother is the manifestation of God. So the only correct way to pray for a sick person is if the person prays with the understanding that it is God he is in fact praying for.  When one sees everything as a manifestation of God, they respect and are very humble towards these signs or manifestations.  they respect them because of their Divine Source.  One ought to give each thing that has a right its right.  it would be unjust to give something more or less.  and giving each thing its right means looking at each thing in the context of its Divine Source.  respecting each thing because of its Divine Context.  This is the proper way to be concerned for humanity.  humanity is special not because of humanity itself. but because humanity is created in the image of God (the Divine Form,.the Spirit which was blown in us, i.e.  the potential to be insaan kaamil or khalifatullah).  Any way of being concerned for humanity that is wrenched from the Divine Context or Source, is, even if not apparently, an ego-driven concern.  And an ego-driven concern is in fact not a true concern. It is in fact hypocritical.          

[quote]How is his prayer answered in any sense?  He prays for something that is not God within his understanding, but is in reality a manifestation of God, and he doesn't get this manifestation of God in the end.[/quote]

His prayer is not answered within his understanding if within his understanding he prayed for something other than God.
His prayer is answered however in reality since in reality (outside his understanding) he in fact prayed for none other than God.  Since in reality all he prayed for was an attribute of God.  and God's attribute is the only real thing (eternally).  So in reality the person is never deprived of that reality or attribute (whether he realizes it or not).  we should bear in mind that the reality is that nothing but God exists   So, the next question one should ask is: does the prayer exist in reality?  And the answer is yes.  everything exists in reality inasmuch as it is identical to God's eternal knowledge.   if it is asked, how is everything identical to God's eternal knowledge (and in effect identical to God Himself) if everything is in need of God (especially a prayer! which is by definition a pure need).  We should answer:  because the need, being eternal, has also been eternally fulfilled, or answered.  so we just "call" it a need. is it truly a need?  it is not truly a need since it is eternally fullfilled!  but only for conceptual purposes we call it an eternal need which is eternally answered.  but really, an eternal need which s eternally answered, is in fact no need at all.  This is how God;s needy creatures, can be identical to God in His Eternal Knowledge of them! Keep in mind that eternity does not in anyway mean "forever" or "infinite duration of time".  Eternity is the complete opposite of time, it is beyond any sort of time-span (even if the time-span is considered to be infinite).  So the answer, and the answered (the prayer), are identical.  This is because there is no duality in God Himself.    


a prayer done with true understanding has the effect of harmonizing an individual, or making an individual content with any of God's manifestations.  This is because a true prayer makes an individual connected with the Divine Source or the context within which anything (or any of His manifestations) can be found. This is he power and purpose of religion.  A religion is essentially a method of integrating man with the Source through specific formulas.  but these formulas (be it in the form of religious rituals, chants, canonical prayers, religious art, symbols, architecture, rites etc ) must be performed and are only completely effective if they are known for what they are (namely the means fo integration with the Source).  The whole point of religion is to make an individual be in harmony or conformity with God's manifestations (by being receptive to them in every moment). This is what one may notice if they read the Sahifat Sajjadiyyah.  If one is asking for cure, they are not asking for cure, but they are asking for His Cure, which is eternal.  and that is the answer that brings satisfaction regardless of whether one gets cured or not.  In the Cure alone we trust, not the cure.  For there is no cure but The One and Only Cure.  (laa ilaha ilallah).  This is just an example.

wallahu alim.

Edited by eThErEaL, 21 July 2010 - 06:23 AM.

[.InshAllah.]

Quote

His prayer is answered however in reality since in reality (outside his understanding) he in fact prayed for none other than God. Since in reality all he prayed for was an attribute of God. and God's attribute is the only real thing (eternally).

Can you clearly explain exactly what you mean by praying for God?  At one point you said it means praying for a particular manifestation of God, and at another you said praying to be in conformity with God, and many times including in the above quote I'm understanding you to mean praying for God to exist (which seems nonsensical).  When a person of understanding prays for a sick person to get better, exactly what is he praying for?

[eThErEaL]

.InshAllah., on 21 July 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

Can you clearly explain exactly what you mean by praying for God?  At one point you said it means praying for a particular manifestation of God, and at another you said praying to be in conformity with God, and many times including in the above quote I'm understanding you to mean praying for God to exist (which seems nonsensical).  When a person of understanding prays for a sick person to get better, exactly what is he praying for?

the manifestation of God and God are not two different things.  But what is different is that through which God manifests Himself through and His manifestation.  His manifestation is how He appears through a place of manifestation.  So the "place" and the manifestation are different even if the manifestation can only occur within a "place".  so when one prays for a particular manifestation of God, they are praying for God. God's manifestation changes from our point of view due to the constant replacement of "places" of manifestation.  I don't remember just saying "that one prays for God to exist".  If I did I may have also added an explanation that says His manifestation changes every new moment.  So people are constantly in need of a new manifestation of God.  

When a person of understanding prays for a sick person to get better, he is praying to be in conformity with God's will.  This is because, from the very start, he prayed for the sick only because God commanded him to do so.  Doing everything because God commanded us to do them does not mean being oblivious and unconcerned with what is happening in the world.  But rather it is a way of correctly engaging with the world and correctly being concerned with it.

Edited by eThErEaL, 21 July 2010 - 10:40 PM.

[Abu Muntazer]

Allahumma salli ala Muhammadin wa Aali Muhammad

May Allah increase you in Iman and draw you closer to HIm through the love of and obedience to Muhammad and his family, blessings and peace be upon them.
May Allah grant you good health and relief from your affliction, and grant you the best in this life, in the next, and protection from the fire.

Allahumma salli ala Muhammadin was Aali Muhammad.

I only wish that I had known of your condition on the 15th of Shaban so that I could petition our Master (aj) to ask Allah for your good health.

fi aman Allah

Abu Muntazer

[kim.tinkerbell]

Could it be because God takes longer to answer prayers , which leads to people asking for help throu the the imams(as)....

Or has god delibraitly not answered some wishes and prayers so that we remmber or get the imams involved...


If god is benevolent, all knowing and seeing then why do people still suffer even thou they are asking him for help?

[gogiison2]

saira shah, on 18 July 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

i have been observing since childhood that Allah seldom grants any prayer,,,,, there are so many conditions for fulfilment of a prayer,,, so to say it happens that 1 time your wish will be granted out of 10 times and 9 times refused,, and in the same way prayers of other people are granted who are followers of other religions,,,, we are asked to have 100% faith in what we are asking from Allah ,,, if a non believer asks with 100% surety from an idol still his wish is granted,, so whats the difference,, i feel that some times our important prayers are refused without any reason and some times a very silly desire is fulfilled very imeediately,,, im praying for my health for last 15 years but no results, i am so much disappointed that i dont beilieve in prayers any more

http://gogiison2.wor...011/11/21/2253/
http://gogiison2.wor...-of-surah-kahf/

iA those will increase your patience and trust.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

kim.tinkerbell, on 29 January 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Could it be because God takes longer to answer prayers , which leads to people asking for help throu the the imams(as)....

Or has god delibraitly not answered some wishes and prayers so that we remmber or get the imams involved...


If god is benevolent, all knowing and seeing then why do people still suffer even thou they are asking him for help?

Actually, it is true that praying through the AhlulBayt has proven to be most effective, especially at their shrines. A friend of my uncle had his eyes cured at the shrine of Sayeda Zeinab Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He threw his glasses, full of certitude that he could be cured of his eyesight through the intercession of Sayeda Zeinab Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, and when came out of the shrine, he was shocked that he could see crystal clear and now he no longer needs to wear glasses. My uncle was kicking himself, because for a split second he doubted and opted to keep his glasses because they were his only pair, so he wasn't cured. He was totally dismayed with himself.

The AhlulBayt(as) are the manifestations of God. God is everywhere, but you must approach his appointed manifestations if you truly wish to get your invocations and prayers answered for real. If the O.P still uses this site, she should know that she should go to the shrines of the 7th and 8th Imam (a) to get cured, since many miracles have happened there, plethora of people have been cured of various disabilities or illnesses. In fact all the holy members of AhlulBayt (a) are manifestations of God and they will cure you.

[lovegood]

some people said, if you have prayed many times and you didn't get the answers, you would have to pray until you cry and beg God's answers, InshaAllah

[kim.tinkerbell]

اهل البيت, on 29 January 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Actually, it is true that praying through the AhlulBayt has proven to be most effective, especially at their shrines. A friend of my uncle had his eyes cured at the shrine of Sayeda Zeinab عليه السلام. He threw his glasses, full of certitude that he could be cured of his eyesight through the intercession of Sayeda Zeinab عليه السلام, and when came out of the shrine, he was shocked that he could see crystal clear and now he no longer needs to wear glasses. My uncle was kicking himself, because for a split second he doubted and opted to keep his glasses because they were his only pair, so he wasn't cured. He was totally dismayed with himself.

The AhlulBayt(as) are the manifestations of God. God is everywhere, but you must approach his appointed manifestations if you truly wish to get your invocations and prayers answered for real. If the O.P still uses this site, she should know that she should go to the shrines of the 7th and 8th Imam (a) to get cured, since many miracles have happened there, plethora of people have been cured of various disabilities or illnesses. In fact all the holy members of AhlulBayt (a) are manifestations of God and they will cure you.

Yeh but the got cured because of god, not because they want to the 7th or 8th imams , god probably has reward them in that mint to prove mircales can happen. Then you have the situation where people believe it was the imam that cured them so they countinue to ask them for help because thet believe its them that caused tge mircales....

But why would god want as to ask throu them all the time.... Is he using the imam to answer us back, so its easier for people to take in...

Stil theres suffereing in the world so why hasnt he stopped it, fair enough life is a test but why is it when a little child askes for help god doesnt reply back ???

Why would he want us to take the round about approach?

I still think you should ask god and then add in the imams ....

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

Actually, it is true that praying through the AhlulBayt has proven to be most effective, especially at their shrines. A friend of my uncle had his eyes cured at the shrine of Sayeda Zeinab عليه السلام. He threw his glasses, full of certitude that he could be cured of his eyesight through the intercession of Sayeda Zeinab عليه السلام, and when came out of the shrine, he was shocked that he could see crystal clear and now he no longer needs to wear glasses. My uncle was kicking himself, because for a split second he doubted and opted to keep his glasses because they were his only pair, so he wasn't cured. He was totally dismayed with himself.

Brother, I also have personally witnessed this, but with different problem of course.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 30 January 2012 - 06:34 AM.

[Golden-crowned]

please read this great book, you will find the answer here inshallah :

http://www.duas.org/od/contents.htm