22 replies to this topic

[rabiachawla]

Salam

This may seem a silly question but I have not been here long and everyone keeps telling me that it is a must to get these medical exams done annually.
I had heard or read somewhere that it is not permissible to have pap smears when still a virgin.
Is this true, and if so (or even if not), why, and can anyone provide any backup for their answer?

any input would be appreciated.

thanks

[bandekhoda]

It hadn't even occurred to me that these tests might be impermissible for virgins! When using tampons is allowed, I don't see how this might be haram!
Why don't you ask your marja?

If you are a virgin you only need these tests when you see/feel an abnormality. Doing them annually is for people who are sexually active and therefore more prone to diseases.

[Zeynab-europe]

PAP-smears are done for cervix cancer caused by human papilloma virus, which at that place of your body is sexually transmitted.

Thus, I don't really see the point of getting pap smears when you're a virgin anyway.

In my country pap smears are only done routinely every five years in women over 35 years old. I don't assume you're a 35-year-old virgin, do you?

My advise? Forget about the papsmear if you are under 30 and virgin. For me personally, with my hubs and me being each other's first and only, I may skip them altogether even when I get older. And I sure don't see the point of getting them every year when they're fine every time.

No wonder the health care costs in the USA are so crazy high!

[amr bil maaroof]

Strictly dont do it.
U only do it if u have serious problem. And take advice of parents or elder brother or sister ( very close trustworthy family members) before u do it.
Make sure a professional is consulted so u dont damage.

[Zeynab-europe]

UPittShiaGrl, on 27 May 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

wooow...i'm utterly horrified at the thought that there are still people out, in the year 2010 there who are so clueless about a womans health that they would tell a young woman to NOT take care of her body!

wow..... since when was this a tiny village in the year 1400?  hello Muslimaat!

first off, female health IS important regardless of ones current state...its like, would you forgo a dental exam or a body exam for some really irrational reason? Um, no...there are indeed many, many reasons why young women should have a annual examination and it has NOTHING to do to with what they are doing or NOT doing! It boils down to being in good phsycal health! Many of the problems that women develop as they get grow could have been caught when they were younger with routine check ups!
Like...cysts (nothing to do with ones state) or cancer (can happen to anyone, regardless of ones state), and a variety of other problems.

Its good common sense to yearly get a check up, even if one feels in 100% fine shape...its still a wise idea, just like how one gets a dental checkup and a body checkup and frankly...c'mon, join the modern era where womens health IS important!

This mentality is exactly the reason why women who have or have had breastcancer here in the Gulf are treated like parriahs, or women who are abused are told to just hush up and go bake more cakes and pop out another child...its an utter lack of respect for women, their bodies and their rights to be in good health and in a good physical state emotionally for some really irrational, backwards, old fashioned beliefs which have NO basis in reality or Islam at all!

Salaam sis,

Actually, I'm an MD. So I would dare to say I'm far from clueless about my own body and what could go wrong with it. My opinion about maybe never getting the PAP smear is a personal one, but also from a professional perspective I would NOT recommend those yearly check-ups. Do you have any data proving that such frequent check-ups bring a health benefit to the general, healthy population? (compared to much less stringent population investigations) Do they give a lower cancer mortality, for example? Do you know how much financial cost and emotional harm a false alarm gives? A dentist is needed, because everyone's teeth are under constant stress. But I don't see why a healthy young woman without family burden would have to get those regular check-ups from a gyn or any other doctor. And a total body MRI is the biggest fear-driven commercial bogus of all.

I guess we have a deep cultural difference here. I was personally and professionally raised in a rather calvinist culture. I believe a widely available health care with a good system of family doctors for everyone, so every health matter can be discussed without obstacles, is much preferable to medical overconsumption by those who can afford it.

[_jen_]

rabiachawla, on 21 May 2010 - 11:19 PM, said:

Salam

This may seem a silly question but I have not been here long and everyone keeps telling me that it is a must to get these medical exams done annually.
I had heard or read somewhere that it is not permissible to have pap smears when still a virgin.
Is this true, and if so (or even if not), why, and can anyone provide any backup for their answer?

any input would be appreciated.

thanks

You wouldn't need  smear test if you were a virgin anyway as the risk of cervical cancer is for sexually active women who may have got HPV.

amr bil maaroof, on 24 May 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

Quote

Strictly dont do it.
U only do it if u have serious problem. And take advice of parents or elder brother or sister ( very close trustworthy family members) before u do it.
Make sure a professional is consulted so u dont damage

Thats really quite backwards. The pap smear is a screen which means it can detect pre-cancerous cells, hence cervical cancer is essentially preventable for any woman who has a smear regularly. You would be daft in this case to go to the doctor once "u have a serious problem", for a cancer that could have been prevented in the first place.

[Guriya N]

idk sisters, i get one done.  my doctor said its good to check down there just to make sure everything is OK, so i get it done.  its not a big deal, and its over in like 5 min.

i think if you think its best for you then have one, it doesnt hurt to get that part of your body checked, just as you would for the other parts and organs of the rest of your body.

[shermin]

Guriya N, on 01 June 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

idk sisters, i get one done.  my doctor said its good to check down there just to make sure everything is OK, so i get it done.  its not a big deal, and its over in like 5 min.i think if you think its best for you then have one, it doesnt hurt to get that part of your body checked, just as you would for the other parts and organs of the rest of your body.

I hope u took the advice of your close one(family) before you did the checking. But if not than blame yourself and the members above who advised you to do it. My friend did it once secretly and she was worried sick after that and because of the worries she did not even enjoy her first night  when she got married.

[_jen_]

She didnt enjoy her first night becuase she had a pap smear? Wowww.....imagine if she had to have a full pelvic exam.

[ali the lion]

shermin, on 01 June 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

I hope u took the advice of your close one(family) before you did the checking. But if not than blame yourself and the members above who advised you to do it. My friend did it once secretly and she was worried sick after that and because of the worries she did not even enjoy her first night  when she got married.

I agree with you sister a virgin does not need such examination. But if necessity arises than its better to take advice of close ones.
Such examination done secretly might instill worries in a virgin. And sometimes the worries are justified if the examiner is not professional.

[amr bil maaroof]

UPittShiaGrl, on 27 May 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

wooow...i'm utterly horrified at the thought that there are still people out, in the year 2010 there who are so clueless about a womans health that they would tell a young woman to NOT take care of her body!wow..... since when was this a tiny village in the year 1400?  hello Muslimaat!first off, female health IS important regardless of ones current state...its like, would you forgo a dental exam or a body exam for some really irrational reason? Um, no...there are indeed many, many reasons why young women should have a annual examination and it has NOTHING to do to with what they are doing or NOT doing! It boils down to being in good phsycal health! Many of the problems that women develop as they get grow could have been caught when they were younger with routine check ups!Like...cysts (nothing to do with ones state) or cancer (can happen to anyone, regardless of ones state), and a variety of other problems.Its good common sense to yearly get a check up, even if one feels in 100% fine shape...its still a wise idea, just like how one gets a dental checkup and a body checkup and frankly...c'mon, join the modern era where womens health IS important!This mentality is exactly the reason why women who have or have had breastcancer here in the Gulf are treated like parriahs, or women who are abused are told to just hush up and go bake more cakes and pop out another child...its an utter lack of respect for women, their bodies and their rights to be in good health and in a good physical state emotionally for some really irrational, backwards, old fashioned beliefs which have NO basis in reality or Islam at all!

A virgin girl does not need such checking. Cysts develop mostly in sexual active women. And I never said that if necessary she should not do it. As a post said that if its necessary she should do it in a responsible manner.A man wanting a virgin girl is supposed to be old fashion to you?

_jen_, on 30 May 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

You wouldn't need  smear test if you were a virgin anyway as the risk of cervical cancer is for sexually active women who may have got HPV.amr bil maaroof, on 24 May 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:Thats really quite backwards. The pap smear is a screen which means it can detect pre-cancerous cells, hence cervical cancer is essentially preventable for any woman who has a smear regularly. You would be daft in this case to go to the doctor once "u have a serious problem", for a cancer that could have been prevented in the first place.

A girl protects her virginity uptill her marriage. Do u want shaytan to cast doubts, suspicious and unnecessary worries for her? Its not the question of backwardnmess or old fashionness as u two mentioned. You have to look at the reality on the ground. Be practical guys. Both of you sound like the girl is going to die if she does not go for a checkup. She doesnt have any problem. Does she. And if she has. Is it wrong to take advice from some close family?

Edited by amr bil maaroof, 02 June 2010 - 07:01 AM.

[ali the lion]

^  most gyno problems come when a woman becomes sexual active. U feel ashamed to take advice of your family?

[Maryaam]

UPittShiaGrl, on 02 June 2010 - 07:25 AM, said:

This mentality is precisely why here in the Gulf women who develop female health problems or cancers for example are treated like leapers...some even get divorced by their husbands or their in-laws force the marriage to end...this is why a lot of the women who can afford so, go to the UK or France for their medical treatments on the pretext of a "shopping" trip because if they dont, society will judge them. Thats really sick...other women just remain silent, get sick and die from something which could have been prevented with proper medical care and a caring attitude.

+1  Dont give up on us yet

That is what I am afraid of too – by reading this thread.  In Qatar, if a woman who was not pregnant, let alone an unmarried one, was seen at a gynecologist – tongues would flap – and yes a woman with a gynecological problem was (still is..??) shunned.  Women’s health needs were taken care of, during out of the country shopping trips... Part of the tribal mentality there – and it seems elsewhere…I remember at school in Canada, an Egyptian girl, I knew, going for women’s health care before returning home from school, for precisely that reason.

I don’t think there is a danger of abuse of the system or an overuse of cancer detection resources as sited by one poster.  For Muslim women, it is really hard when they are young to submit to this exam as it goes against everything that has been drilled into your head.  I would not be discouraging access – I would be encouraging access to women’s health care.  There are reasons other than PAP smears as to why this exam may be necessary.  To imply that a PAP smear (aka indicator of being sexually active) is the only reason for a pelvic exam is to condemn a girl with a genuine need for assessment and for subsequent treatment.

One big positive for submitting to an exam early in your life, is that you are much more likely to get immediate help if at some time in the future, you do have an issue that needs attending, as you know what to expect during the exam.  Too many Muslim women put off assessment due to embarrassment or cultural discouragement, for issues that could be quickly and easily resolved when detected early.

__________________________________________________

From http://www.youngwome...pelvicinfo.html

When should I have my first pelvic exam?
Most health care providers agree that you should have your first exam in the first few years after you become sexually active or when you turn 21, whichever comes first. There are other important reasons to have a pelvic exam.

These may include:
• Unexplained pain in your lower belly or around the pelvic area, where your vagina is
• Vaginal discharge or wetness on your underwear that causes itching , burns or smells bad
• No menstrual periods by age 15 or 16
• Vaginal bleeding that lasts more than 10 days
• Missed periods; especially if you are having sex
• Menstrual cramps so bad that you miss school

Remember, it doesn’t matter how old you are or if you are sexually active, if you have any of the symptoms listed above, you should make an appointment with your healthcare provider or gynecologist.

Edited by Maryaam, 02 June 2010 - 09:24 AM.

[Devout]

Unless you are experiencing the symptoms Maryaam mentioned or you're sexually active, you do not REALLY need to go to a gyno.


I understand why some people, on here, sound like they are from the stone age. Quite frankly, that is what culture does to you. About the girl who couldn't enjoy her wedding night, she probably didn't know that there is no way to tell whether a girl is a virgin or not. The story of the hymen and it being broken is an old one, friends. Fact of the matter is that not all girls are born with a hymen and many have theirs broken through exercise, even if it's very light.

All this just calls for people to organise 'women's health'-classes all around the countries concerned. Then the real struggle would begin: getting people to ACTUALLY attend. Culture is the dictator you can't see, touch or hear, but we all know it is there.


@UPittShiaGrl

Some do live under a rock, it is the constant nagging from higher authorities (mothers and grandmothers) that makes these girl not realise their rights and the risks of disease, unfortunately.
Something tells me we should print cause/disease/treatment on the back of rice and noodlepackets.  

[_jen_]

amr bil maaroof, on 02 June 2010 - 07:00 AM, said:

A girl protects her virginity uptill her marriage. Do u want shaytan to cast doubts, suspicious and unnecessary worries for her? Its not the question of backwardnmess or old fashionness as u two mentioned. You have to look at the reality on the ground. Be practical guys. Both of you sound like the girl is going to die if she does not go for a checkup. She doesnt have any problem. Does she. And if she has. Is it wrong to take advice from some close family?

Bana, having a smear test or pelvic exam does not mean you lose your virginity.

And its not about dying if you dont go for a check up....it just makes no sense to wait until a problem occurs before going to see a doctor, when there is a reliable screening method availale.

In any case, this is all irrelevant as if the OP is a virgin it wont be necessary to even have a smear done. But this is because she wont have HPV, not because she should protect her virginity.

[bandekhoda]

amr bil maaroof, on 24 May 2010 - 08:04 AM, said:

Strictly dont do it.
U only do it if u have serious problem. And take advice of parents or elder brother or sister ( very close trustworthy family members) before u do it.
Make sure a professional is consulted so u dont damage.

Yeah I can just imagine it.. "yo older bruv, you think I should go to my gyno to check my cervix??" !!!

shermin, on 01 June 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

I hope u took the advice of your close one(family) before you did the checking. But if not than blame yourself and the members above who advised you to do it. My friend did it once secretly and she was worried sick after that and because of the worries she did not even enjoy her first night  when she got married.

I am sorry your friend did not enjoy her first night, but this is the price she had to pay for her ignorance.

amr bil maaroof, on 24 May 2010 - 08:04 AM, said:

A virgin girl does not need such checking. Cysts develop mostly in sexual active women. And I never said that if necessary she should not do it. As a post said that if its necessary she should do it in a responsible manner.A man wanting a virgin girl is supposed to be old fashion to you?

A girl protects her virginity uptill her marriage. Do u want shaytan to cast doubts, suspicious and unnecessary worries for her? Its not the question of backwardnmess or old fashionness as u two mentioned. You have to look at the reality on the ground. Be practical guys. Both of you sound like the girl is going to die if she does not go for a checkup. She doesnt have any problem. Does she. And if she has. Is it wrong to take advice from some close family?

A man who thinks the "purity" of his wife depends on the existence of a piece of tissue is truly old fashioned..no wait, the word is idiot.  I don't know what village you live in, but in my country, girls have intercourse and repair their hymen before getting married. Or they have sex but no vaginal intercourse.
As for the rest of your post, Devout answered you.

UPittShiaGrl, on 02 June 2010 - 02:56 PM, said:

wow, thats a myth, as soon as a woman starts her period she can develop female health problems. I guess ya'll have not taken any health classes huh.


*Bangs head on wall*...

True, but there is no need to go to a gynaecologist for every single "female health problem" and get a cancer related test done! Going to the GP is usually sufficient for virgins.

[ali the lion]

Devout, on 02 June 2010 - 12:16 PM, said:

About the girl who couldn't enjoy her wedding night, she probably didn't know that there is no way to tell whether a girl is a virgin or not. The story of the hymen and it being broken is an old one, friends. Fact of the matter is that not all girls are born with a hymen and many have theirs broken through exercise, even if it's very light. All this just calls for people to organise 'women's health'-classes all around the countries concerned. Then the real struggle would begin: getting people to ACTUALLY attend. Culture is the dictator you can't see, touch or hear, but we all know it is there. @UPittShiaGrlSome do live under a rock, it is the constant nagging from higher authorities (mothers and grandmothers) that makes these girl not realise their rights and the risks of disease, unfortunately.Something tells me we should print cause/disease/treatment on the back of rice and noodlepackets.  

I suppose u are saying Allah created hymen for no purpose?

Hymen getting broken in exercise and girls born without hymen is a nice western education given to girls. That gives them a valid license to lead a life of fornication and later deceive their husband with such excuses.

bandekhoda, on 02 June 2010 - 11:09 PM, said:

A man who thinks the "purity" of his wife depends on the existence of a piece of tissue is truly old fashioned..no wait, the word is idiot. I don't know what village you live in, but in my country, girls have intercourse and repair their hymen before getting married. Or they have sex but no vaginal intercourse.
As for the rest of your post, Devout answered you.  

'the type of people you live with, u become like them'

if u feel its okay to deceive and do such things and not to take advice from elderly than I prefer my village even if u call it old fashion.

UPittShiaGrl, on 02 June 2010 - 02:56 PM, said:

wow, thats a myth, as soon as a woman starts her period she can develop female health problems. I guess ya'll have not taken any health classes huh.*Bangs head on wall*...sis, Ive realized that, since moving to the Gulf, ...Ive noticed this first hand. And its shocking and surprising and very, very sad! But, I can only pray that education eradicates these false notions of female health!

Nice health classes you have been going to. It teaches you not to trust and take guidance from your family?

bandekhoda, on 02 June 2010 - 11:09 PM, said:

I am sorry your friend did not enjoy her first night, but this is the price she had to pay for her ignorance.

(as shermin mentioned)She was not ignorant but she was confused  after the test because she did it secretly. Is it hard to understand and you are educated.

Edited by ali the lion, 03 June 2010 - 05:20 AM.

[Devout]

ali the lion, on 03 June 2010 - 04:53 AM, said:

I suppose u are saying Allah created hymen for no purpose?

Yo man, take a step back.  

Did Allah(swt) create eyes for no purpose? since there are people who are born blind.

ali the lion, on 03 June 2010 - 04:53 AM, said:

Hymen getting broken in exercise and girls born without hymen is a nice western education given to girls. That gives them a valid license to lead a life of fornication and later deceive their husband with such excuses.

They are all facts from what I know. If you have anything that can back your claims, you're welcome to put it forth but you need to get out of your bubble and recognise the muslim world for what it is. Girls are not educated when it comes to their own bodies and they NEED to know, males need to too so you're welcome to join their health classs, so that in the future we can avoid situations like the above post describes.
Not all girls have hymens
Some tear during exercise/accidents
Girls cannot choose the gender of their unborn child (well technology does allow that but I'm talking in a legit, non-murderous way)

Adultery is NOT a creation of the West. It is very well known in the east, and advocated by 'liberal' muslims. In countries like saudi & UAE, girl actually go get these 'hymen repair surgeries' where the doctors make insane money for repairing these girl's mistakes. Japan has also developed something like "plastic hymen" which girls who are non-virgins can purchase and use on the wedding night. Last time I checked, rich men marry young girls (who have made mistakes), get their hymens fixed and practically buy themselves a wife/sexslave.

You don't know what goes on so please refrain from posting in the SISTERS FORUM.

Edited by Devout, 03 June 2010 - 05:45 AM.

[shermin]

UPittShiaGrl, on 03 June 2010 - 05:23 AM, said:

First, to the OP...since this thread has turned into a general mess due to BROTHERS who have no right to be IN HERE in our SISTERS forum, I suggest you contact the sisters in the private Sisters Consultancy Group, they are an educated lot who can try to assist you in a private setting.

I'm over 30 years old (so yes the last health class I went to what probably when you were 3 years old, young man!) and am truly shocked at the mentality this young man is displaying. Its truly, truly dismaying.  As he obviously has absolutely no clue about anything related to women AT ALL!

and, need I mention... being from a village does NOT mean one is uneducated and irrational, if you choose to live a life of ignorance then do so, but don't propagate your irrational, ignorant beliefs on our sisters board, yes this is a SISTERS board, NOT brothers board!


This mentality, this utter irrationality, this utter ignorance is what is keeping many of our fellow Muslims, mentally in the stone age and no, being from a rural background is no justification for this mentality, particularly NOT in this time period.

This is sick. I have a question for you my young sister. How would you feel if your young virgin teenage daughter goes to a gyno without consulting you? If you dont mind than I feel deeply sorry for your daughters to have such a mother. Mubarak to you your so called West!

Devout, on 03 June 2010 - 05:43 AM, said:

Yo man, take a step back.  

Did Allah(swt) create eyes for no purpose? since there are people who are born blind.



They are all facts from what I know. If you have anything that can back your claims, you're welcome to put it forth but you need to get out of your bubble and recognise the muslim world for what it is. Girls are not educated when it comes to their own bodies and they NEED to know, males need to too so you're welcome to join their health classs, so that in the future we can avoid situations like the above post describes.
Not all girls have hymens
Some tear during exercise/accidents
Girls cannot choose the gender of their unborn child (well technology does allow that but I'm talking in a legit, non-murderous way)

Adultery is NOT a creation of the West. It is very well known in the east, and advocated by 'liberal' muslims. In countries like saudi & UAE, girl actually go get these 'hymen repair surgeries' where the doctors make insane money for repairing these girl's mistakes. Japan has also developed something like "plastic hymen" which girls who are non-virgins can purchase and use on the wedding night. Last time I checked, rich men marry young girls (who have made mistakes), get their hymens fixed and practically buy themselves a wife/sexslave.

You don't know what goes on so please refrain from posting in the SISTERS FORUM.

Brother I hope you dont have a sister. I know what you are doing. Are you trying to misguide the girls into beleiving the insignificance of virginity? That is a nice way to fool a girl with your arguments of hymen and how insignificant it is. Mods plizzzzzzzzzzzz

Edited by shermin, 03 June 2010 - 07:15 AM.

[_jen_]

Wow some attitudes here make me sick to the stomach.

Im sure these backwards ways of thinking will be gone soon though......as the older generation dies out and the the backwards youth get more educated.  

[Devout]

shermin, on 03 June 2010 - 07:10 AM, said:

Brother I hope you dont have a sister. I know what you are doing. Are you trying to misguide the girls into beleiving the insignificance of virginity? That is a nice way to fool a girl with your arguments of hymen and how insignificant it is. Mods plizzzzzzzzzzzz

[EDITED - No swear words, unmannered replies or racist comments, especially when directed at other members. Insults made against other members on this board are not tolerated]

As for virginity etc, it is extremely significant because of our cultures and religion. I never tried to downplay that but scientific facts speak for themselves, not all girls are born with hymens etc and we need to educate people like yourself so that these poor girls don't get lynched within their countries for having committed adultery when they clearly have not.

Secondly, I'm not saying virginity is insignificant but I have heard SEVERAL cases where girls the east commit adultery and then regret it and go to a surgeon.

Is that clear?

Edited by Nocturne, 08 June 2010 - 01:23 PM.

[UmmIbrahim2007]

shermin, on 03 June 2010 - 07:10 AM, said:

This is sick. I have a question for you my young sister. How would you feel if your young virgin teenage daughter goes to a gyno without consulting you? If you dont mind than I feel deeply sorry for your daughters to have such a mother. Mubarak to you your so called West!








Brother I hope you dont have a sister. I know what you are doing. Are you trying to misguide the girls into beleiving the insignificance of virginity? That is a nice way to fool a girl with your arguments of hymen and how insignificant it is. Mods plizzzzzzzzzzzz

This is none of your concern. Both my husband and I are alhamdullah, well educated both academically and religiously and no we are not 'young', so how we choose to raise our child is between us and God ONLY. Secondly, we live in Saudi Arabia which...is not "the west", now is it?

secondly, I have notified moderators about the inappropriateness of the responses to this thread. en'shallah they will take action soon.

[Gypsy]

I was intentionally ignoring this topic (when it was posted). I don’t believe ShiaChat is the right place to discuss sensitive gender issue or sexual questions. These types of questions need to be asked offline and privately.

I am asked by other moderator/s to respond to this topic. The only reason I am even writing a reply is as a courtesy to other male admins/moderators who rather not deal with women issue.

To the original poster, I think by now you realized that there is no correct answer to your questions. You will get 10 different answers from 10 different people. There is no right or wrong answer. From medical point of view, they always recommend preventive check-up regardless if you need them or not. Preventive check-up has been shown to help many women facing a number of issues. And that is why they think you might also benefit from this check-up. Again, please remember, this is a general recommendation and not a personal diagnosis.

I am also in agreement with folks who said a virgin in her early 20s might not be at too much risk from all the sexually transmitted diseases (generally associated with multiple partners).

My personal recommendation is to talk with your doctor and decide if you need a pap smear or not. If you need one and you are nervous about losing your virginity then seek a doctor that knows how to do a pap smear on virgin.

You can read about the issue of virginity in the Muslim community here http://www.shiachat....-our-societies/