219 replies to this topic

[Bahadur Ali]

Someone50 wrote:

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Because you can NOT answer the questions. This topic is not about a political discussion/analysis so we can just read your BS and leave it there. You need to provide REFERENCES AND EVIDENCES. I asked you above in simple language to come prepared and provide things if you declare "heresy" and etc... Can you update us and tell us your qualifications? I wonder even if you understand Arabic language, let alone the Quran/hadith references. I DON'T NEED YOUR IDEAS, sorry, not regarding this topics.

I do NOT see any Zaidi in this forum or anyone who back up their ideas. But, I see 12er Shias who are worse than KUFAR, and doesn't matter what, they like to see the only Shia government in the world to collapse, because they are either Zionist puppets or Marxist slaves. Lets say if the topic was something that was against the government in Iran, the next thing you might done was to make your 2 cents declaration in the opposite ways.

Why don't you ask your "Amir ol Mominîn" (i.e. Sayyid Khamenei) to provide us proof that he has been appointed by Imam-e Zamân (ajf) as the second Amîr ol Momenîn in Shi'ah history after Imâm Ali ?

I have no issues with the Islamic Republic at all. What I have an issue with is your heresy that's all. I have an issue with you people breaking with 1400 years of tradition and inventing inovations that are:1. not necessary for the running of the Islamic Republic, in fact not even inscribed in the constitution of the Islamic Republic 2. not part of the fundamentals of our faith 3. completely heretical.

You can rant all you want: you're the one calling for heretical Zaydi innovations into our faith, you opnely blaspheme.The burden of proof is on you. It's people like you that create civil wars and fitnah among us Shi'a. Stick to Tradition and leave to our Beloved Imam (ajf) the titles that are His. Neither Sayyid Khamenei nor any other ma'sum need these titles to be good leaders of their country. This is what Iranians need: good policy makers, a better economy, jobs and the respect of the Islamic Republic's constitution NOT your heresy.

Edited by Bahadur Ali, 24 January 2010 - 11:26 AM.

[JimJam]

No, I follow I Ayatollah Sistani. The Wialyat-e-Fiqh doctrine is just that, a doctrine. It is not necessary to consider it valid. Beside didn't Mohammad Baqir al-Sadr propose the Wilayat Al-Umma doctrine. The Ulema should not seek to claim political authority for themselves. It creates trouble for the majority of the Shia community who live as minorities out side Iran / Iraq.

[Bahadur Ali]

Someone50 wrote:

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I do NOT see any Zaidi in this forum or anyone who back up their ideas. But, I see 12er Shias who are worse than KUFAR, and doesn't matter what, they like to see the only Shia government in the world to collapse, because they are either Zionist puppets or Marxist slaves.

It seems to me that you lack faith in the blood of the shohada who have died for the Islamic Revolution and have died during the Holy Defense. The Islamic Republic is here to stay and it certainly won't collapse because of misguided fanatics who wish to create unwanted innovations like calling Sayyid Khamenei "Amir ol Momenin" like you and your friends are proposing. At least show a bit more faith in the sacrifices of the shohada.

Edited by Bahadur Ali, 24 January 2010 - 11:38 AM.

[The Persian Shah]

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Guides, yes. Rulers? Really? Where?

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Okay, so show me an example where the Imams asked us to take the ulema as our rulers? Go ahead. Just one example.

-------------------------------------------

SISTANI on WF

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ÇÓÎ: ͘㠘Óی æáÇíÊ ÔÑÚی ÏÇÑÏ ÏÑ ÇãæÑ ÚÇãøå å äÙÇã ÌÇãÚå æ ãÚÇÔ ãÑÏã ÈÑ Âä ãÈÊäی ÇÓÊ ÈÑ åãå äÇÝÐ ÇÓÊ ÍÊی ÈÑ ãÌÊåÏíä ÏíÑ ãÑ Çíä˜å Úáã Èå ÎØÇ ÈæÏä Âä íÇ ãÎÇáÝÊÔ ÈÇ Âäå ÇÒ ˜ÊÇÈ æ ÓäÊ ÞØÚÇð ËÇÈÊ ÔÏå ÏÇÔÊå ÈÇÔÏ .

Question: If the fatwa of a marja and the Wali Al-Faqih differs, who does the muqalid obey ?

Can anyone translate the following ? From what I got from it, it says to take to the WF's fatwa ?

[Noah-]

Bahadur Ali, on 24 January 2010 - 11:24 AM, said:

Someone50 wrote:



Why don't you ask your "Amir ol Mominîn" (i.e. Sayyid Khamenei) to provide us proof that he has been appointed by Imam-e Zamân (ajf) as the second Amîr ol Momenîn in Shi'ah history after Imâm Ali ?

I have no issues with the Islamic Republic at all. What I have an issue with is your heresy that's all. I have an issue with you people breaking with 1400 years of tradition and inventing inovations that are:1. not necessary for the running of the Islamic Republic, in fact not even inscribed in the constitution of the Islamic Republic 2. not part of the fundamentals of our faith 3. completely heretical.

You can rant all you want: you're the one calling for heretical Zaydi innovations into our faith, you opnely blaspheme.The burden of proof is on you. It's people like you that create civil wars and fitnah among us Shi'a. Stick to Tradition and leave to our Beloved Imam (ajf) the titles that are His. Neither Sayyid Khamenei nor any other ma'sum need these titles to be good leaders of their country. This is what Iranians need: good policy makers, a better economy, jobs and the respect of the Islamic Republic's constitution NOT your heresy.

  

ding dong ding dong.......................your Khamenei this and that...my faith is this and that...tradition 1400 was better than yours............
ask your cousin to answer here and there...Zaidi innovation and 12rs... everyone heresy bla bla bla.. OH I FORGOT TO ANSWER THE QUESTION AND PROVE my points!

OK. bye for now.

[The Persian Shah]

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No, I follow I Ayatollah Sistani. The Wialyat-e-Fiqh doctrine is just that, a doctrine. It is not necessary to consider it valid.

Question: What is Grand Ayatollah Sistani's opinion about Wilayat-e Faqih (governance of jurist)?

Answer: Every jurisprudent (Faqih) has wilayah (guardianship) over non-litigious affairs. Non-litigious affairs are called "al-omour al-hesbiah". As for general affairs to which social order is linked, wilayah of a Faqih and enforcement of wilayah depend on certain conditions one of which is popularity of Faqih among majority of momeneen.

http://www.sistani.o...v&nid=5&cid=485

[Bahadur Ali]

Koda Negahdar

[shiasoldier786]

JimJam, on 24 January 2010 - 11:29 AM, said:

No, I follow I Ayatollah Sistani. The Wialyat-e-Fiqh doctrine is just that, a doctrine. It is not necessary to consider it valid. Beside didn't Mohammad Baqir al-Sadr propose the Wilayat Al-Umma doctrine. The Ulema should not seek to claim political authority for themselves. It creates trouble for the majority of the Shia community who live as minorities out side Iran / Iraq.

How different would the ''wilayat Al-Umma'' be, to a majority of Iranians in a referendum having overwhelmingly accept the current system.

Regarding the ''ulema not seeking political authority'', who else would you suggest? Secular western puppets, or hmm... we could always bring the Shah back.

[Bahadur Ali]

Shiasoldier786 wrote:

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Regarding the ''ulema not seeking political authority'', who else would you suggest? Secular western puppets, or hmm... we could always bring the Shah back.

Just because someone doesn't agree with the presently used system of wilayat e faqih in Iran (there are many other versions of wilayat e faqih) doesn't mean that person wants a secular system or an absolute monarchy. There is a wide range of other political systems other than secular representative democracy and absolute monarchy.

Edited by Bahadur Ali, 24 January 2010 - 12:55 PM.

[Abbas_Zaidi]

someone50: Ameerul momineen shud NOT be used for Rahber Ayatollah Khamanei...period...No need of discussing that further..

and yes i testify that Ayatollah Khamanei is the Rahber and  wali-e-amr of Muslims during the occultation of Imam-e-Asr (atf)..and why cant he ? When Obama became the president of USA, the whole world (even Muslims) was looking him as a President of the world who will lead the world from misery to prosperity, from violence to peace..So why cant Ayatollah Khamanei become a leader of Muslims of the world..I think non- Muslims better know the concept of leadership than our pious Muslim and Shia brothers and sisters....

So ok you can take either Obama or Stephen Harper or Gordan Brown as your wali-e-amr and leader but Ayatollah Khamanei will remain a Rahber of Muslims...

[Noah-]

Abbas_Zaidi, on 24 January 2010 - 01:33 PM, said:

someone50: Ameerul momineen shud NOT be used for Rahber Ayatollah Khamanei...period...No need of discussing that further..

Bro, I never said that. If you follow the discussion, I started my first post with a simple question..then the topic of "reserved title" and the usage of the Arabic word "Amir" came into the discussion, where I did not see any answer with reference in accordance to Shari'a by a few posters who keep insisting in giving out THEIR OWN IDEAS without having knowledge on the topic. I even did not take part in voting in this poll....

[fyst]

The Persian Shah, on 24 January 2010 - 11:39 AM, said:

Majlisi.jpg

How is this AT ALL relevant to what I had asked for???

[Shiatullah]

If you are looking for the specific name of Ayatullah Khamenei (hA), then obviously you will not find it.  That is much like the Sunni argument, asking for the name of Imam Ali in the Qur'an.  But we have hadith that help us decide who we should follow and take as leader.

Shaykh Ansari quotes a tradition from Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.) in his book ‘Ihtijāj’.

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“And among jurists (Fuqaha) those who protect themselves (from sins), guard their religion, defy their carnal desires and are obedient to their Master, it is incumbent upon the people to follow them. Such characteristics are found only in a few of them and not all.”

Imam Mahdi (aj)

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“Look carefully at those people who relate our traditions with deliberation upon our permitted and prohibited things, and know our precepts and commandments. Select one of them for adjudication, since I have appointed such a person for the said task. If his verdict is rejected then it is as if the command of Allah is deemed light and our ordinance refuted. Certainly the one who refutes our ordinance has refuted the ordinance of Allah. Verily such a person has stepped into the boundary of Shirk (Polytheism).”

(al-Kāfi)

Like I said, and like those that have already been quoted, there are many more of these types of hadith.





Hasan Sajjad
President

[Fateme]

Thank you sir for your nice posts.

[fyst]

Hasan_Sajjad, on 27 January 2010 - 02:36 PM, said:

If you are looking for the specific name of Ayatullah Khamenei (hA), then obviously you will not find it.

Nice of you to finally admit that you made up that claim about Sayyid Khamenei having been appointed as a deputy by Imam Mahdi [a].

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That is much like the Sunni argument, asking for the name of Imam Ali in the Qur'an.

Not at all similar. If a Shi'a makes the claim that Imam Ali [a] has been explicitly named in the Qur'an itself, then Sunni's would be right to call this person out for making this false claim. Similarly, you made the false claim that Sayyid Khamenei is Imam Mahdi's "deputy", hence you were called out for it.

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Shaykh Ansari quotes a tradition from Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.) in his book ‘Ihtijāj’.

“And among jurists (Fuqaha) those who protect themselves (from sins), guard their religion, defy their carnal desires and are obedient to their Master, it is incumbent upon the people to follow them. Such characteristics are found only in a few of them and not all.”

First of all, the translation is wrong. This is the actual hadith from al-Ihtijaj, vol 2, page 263:

ÝÇãÇ ãä ßÇä ãä ÇáÝÞåÇÁ ÕÇÆäÇ áäÝÓå¡ ÍÇÝÙÇ áÏíäå¡ ãÎÇáÝÇ Úáì åæÇå¡ ãØíÚÇ áÇãÑ ãæáÇå¡ ÝááÚæÇã Ãä íÞáÏæå¡

http://www.yasoob.co.../11/no1192.html

Where does it have the word "incumbent" in it?

That's right, it doesn't.

Second, this hadith has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being the "Wali Amr". It is explicitly talking about taqlid (fa lil `awaam an YAQLUDOOH - ÝááÚæÇã Ãä íÞáÏæå). But we already know that we can do taqlid of fuqahaa -- that has never been the issue. The question is whether or not we have a "Wali al-`Amr " in these times. So posting a hadith about permissibility of taqlid (which practically everyone here agrees on) as evidence of Sayyid Khamenei being the Wali al-`Amr just shows how ignorant you are about this issue.


Thirdly, and the most importantly, where does this hadith say that we can only refer to ONE such faqih for guidance??? Even if you falsely assume that this hadith is referring to the issue Wali al-`Amr, and not taqleed, where do we see the Imam saying that there must be a single such Waliy whom the people must take for guidance? The hadith simply states a set of criteria a person has to look for in a faqih  if he wises to perform his taqlid. So we can refer to any faqih who satisfies this criteria, not just the leader of Iran.

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Imam Mahdi (aj)

“Look carefully at those people who relate our traditions with deliberation upon our permitted and prohibited things, and know our precepts and commandments. Select one of them for adjudication, since I have appointed such a person for the said task. If his verdict is rejected then it is as if the command of Allah is deemed light and our ordinance refuted. Certainly the one who refutes our ordinance has refuted the ordinance of Allah. Verily such a person has stepped into the boundary of Shirk (Polytheism).”

Again, this hadith has nothing to do with the position of Wali al-`Amr. The hadith states that there were two men who were in a dispute over a debt or a legacy, and were told by the Imam [a] that they were not allowed to refer to the sultan to resolve that issue (that is, the sultan of the oppressive Abbasid regime at that time). But EVERYONE already knows that you cannot refer to an unIslamic tyrant for adjudication of your fiqhi disputes! You can only refer to someone who is knowledgeable in Shi'i fiqh. So what on earth does this hadith have to do with there being a Wali al-`Amr???

And again, just like last time, this hadith says that we can select ANY pious and knowledgeable "narrator of our ahadith", not just a single appointed "Wali al-`Amr". So even this hadith just confirms that there is no such "Wali", and the Shi'a can choose who they want to settle their disputes, as long as the "narrator of hadith" satisfies the mentioned criteria.

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Like I said, and like those that have already been quoted, there are many more of these types of hadith.

Sadly for you, NONE of "these types of hadith" have anything to do with there being a Wali al-`Amr in the ghaybah of the 12th Imam.

[The Persian Shah]

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If you are looking for the specific name of Ayatullah Khamenei (hA), then obviously you will not find it.

Nice of you to finally admit that you made up that claim about Sayyid Khamenei having been appointed as a deputy by Imam Mahdi [a].

"Not finding the specific name of Ayatullah Khamenei [HA] (in the Qur`an and Ahadeeth)" is not contradictory to "being a deputy of Imam Mahdi [AJTF]".

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Sadly for you, NONE of "these types of hadith" have anything to do with there being a Wali al-`Amr in the ghaybah of the 12th Imam.

Just to clarify, do you dispute that there is absolutely NO Wali Al-Amr (not even the fuqaha` collectively), or just that Ayatullah Khamenei [HA] is not the ONLY Wali Al Amr ? There is a difference: Ayatullah Khamenei [HA] being the only wali al-amr al-muslimeen, and the fuqaha/ulama being the wali al-amr al-muslimeen as a group. (Btw, I'm not implying the first is not true either, but the second claim as an encompassing universal needs to be established first).

[fyst]

The Persian Shah, on 28 January 2010 - 06:20 AM, said:

Just to clarify, do you dispute that there is absolutely NO Wali Al-Amr (not even the fuqaha` collectively), or just that Ayatullah Khamenei [HA] is not the ONLY Wali Al Amr ?

I unquestionably reject the assertion that Ayatullah Khamenei is the ONLY Wali al-`Amr. As for whether the ulemah collectively count as the Awliyaa al-`Amr for Muslimeen, I don't reject this as a possible interpretation of the Islamic concept of wilayah, but I think it is very unlikely to be Islamically valid, hence I don't accept it for practical every-day purposes.

[hameedeh]

Personally, I think 50 messages is a huge amount for a member to have to amass in order to vote in a poll.
I hope that I can get up to that point that I can vote here. :]

[Shiatullah]

fyst, on 28 January 2010 - 06:50 AM, said:

I unquestionably reject the assertion that Ayatullah Khamenei is the ONLY Wali al-`Amr. As for whether the ulemah collectively count as the Awliyaa al-`Amr for Muslimeen, I don't reject this as a possible interpretation of the Islamic concept of wilayah, but I think it is very unlikely to be Islamically valid, hence I don't accept it for practical every-day purposes.

Taqleed and WF aren't separate issues.  Most, if not all maraja, have talked about WF in their fatwas.  So for example, if you do taqlid of Ayatullah Lankarani , you would follow Rahbar as your political leader.

If all the ulema are Wali-Amr, (maybe)according to you, then what happens when most ulema tell you to refer to one as your leader?

As for the translation, it wasn't done by me.  Unfortunately, I am still in the early stages of studying Arabic.  So, I imagine some arab speakers must disagree with you, but that is besides the point.

Not that this matters to you, but here is Q&A that Rahbar has answered, maybe others will find it beneficial.

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Q: Who is wali-e-faqīh? Is he the mujtahid followed by a person, or the ruling mujtahid? In general, what is meant by wilāyah of faqīh?
A: The 'absolute wilāyah' of the qualified faqīh means that the true religion of Islam, which is the final heavenly religion and will last till the Day of Resurrection, is a religion of governance and administration of social affairs. Therefore, it is necessary for the Islamic society, at all strata, to have a guardian for its affairs, a ruler, and a leader who would defend the Islamic society against the enemies of Islam and Muslims. He must preserve their social system, establish justice among them, prevent the strong from victimizing the weak, and attain for them the means of cultural, political, and social development and prosperity.

I don't see how one can disagree with the above answer, even if all you use is common sense.  And unfortunately, from the state of Muslim and Islamic countries, many maraja would be unable to carry out the duties mentioned above due to their specific situations, so how can they be WF?  And in any case, no other mujtahid has even taken up/claimed the position of WF.






Hasan Sajjad
President

[Darth Vader]

(late reply to shabib.jaisi)

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I agree.. no doubt about that. But we don't have direct access to Holy Imam's and Prophet now.. and it's logical to go to those who are the most knowledgable about the affairs of Imam's and Prophet.. i hope you would agree.. for you it may be Saints (i don't know your definition of Saints so plz explain).. for me it is pious scholars who are aware of some Uloom of Mohammad  wa Aaale Mohammad ... and who try their best to lead our communities on basis of that Ilm..

What do you mean by Saint's..

I'll give you a hint: Bahlol Dana. Can your scholars give away houses in jannah like he did? Sort out the rest yourself. There is a reason why we all don't have unrestrcited and open access to the 12th Imam but it doesn't mean that he is absent and unaware of our actions and intentions. And most certainly its not a good enough excuse to surrender our aql and hand our fate over to the mullah. Their hard work should be respected and it surely has a worthy place and say in the guidance of all muslims, no doubt. But a sea is a sea and a pond is a pond. Things should be considered as they actually are.

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What was it that made Imam Khomeini special than other's?

The additional yet equally exceptional leadership quality in that scholar. He was the best leader us Muslims have had in a long while. Please read about his life in detail for a proper comparison.

Before jumping to any sad conclusions perhaps you should do more research and broaden your thought process. Read my posts again. Don't be naive enough to surrender your aql entirely to anyone sitting on a mimber, dressed in religious looking garments, having a beard and speaking slowly. Even if Khamenai is actually worthy enough, such innovations will most certainly give very unclean mullahs elsewhere, in other countries, the same sort of religiously endorsed expectation of executive power over people. Please think of all muslimeen all over the world. Thank you.

Edited by Ibrahim Nakhaee, 28 January 2010 - 12:30 PM.

[shabib_jaisi]

Ibrahim Nakhaee, on 28 January 2010 - 12:22 PM, said:

(late reply to shabib.jaisi)
I'll give you a hint: Bahlol Dana. Can your scholars give away houses in jannah like he did? Sort out the rest yourself.

brother,

I have only one question to your above statement.. Do you have a Bahlol Dana now ?. If yes please let me know.
Or do you have any other Saint who gives away houses in Jannah ?

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There is a reason why we all don't have unrestrcited and open access to the 12th Imam but it doesn't mean that he is absent and unaware of our actions and intentions. And most certainly its not a good enough excuse to surrender our aql and hand our fate over to the mullah. Their hard work should be respected and it surely has a worthy place and say in the guidance of all muslims, no doubt. But a sea is a sea and a pond is a pond. Things should be considered as they actually are.

No one says that 12th Imam is unaware of our actions. That's besides the discussion going on here. Its not an excuse and no one is surrendering 'Aql' as it may seem to you. The top scholars of today are no ordinary Mullah as you seem to convey.. Majority of Shia Maraje (including those who died within last few years) were nobel souls and very high in state of knowledge and Taqwa.. And then there are some very great scholars (not Maraje but not less than that position) like Agae Bahjat, Agae Amoli etc who are highly credible.. If majority of such scholars feel/felt that one highly estemeed Scholar is eligible to be the leader of the Ummah during the occultation of Imam(as).. do you suggest that they all surrendered their 'Aql'.. I suspect they have better interaction with our 12th Imam(as) than the rest of us..

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The additional yet equally exceptional leadership quality in that scholar. He was the best leader us Muslims have had in a long while. Please read about his life in detail for a proper comparison.

I have read about Imam Khomeini's life.. and i'll read more Insha Allah.. It is true that he was the best leader Muslims had in a long while.. But the questions is what should Muslims do after him ?.. Wait for a leader who is atleast as good as Imam before accepting the structure of Leadership ?.. And who will make this decision of choosing the leadership if and when it shows (atleast) the qualities of Imam Khomeini.. You, me or those scholars who sit at top of hierarchy. ??

If our top scholars chose someone as their Leader after Imam Khomeini(ar).. it is incumbent upon us to follow the advice of these great scholars.. If at any time the collective conscience of these scholars feels that the incumbent Leadership has lost maturity needed for this position, they shall speak up and move to bring a new Leadership in place.. I would rather believe those top scholars than letting my 'Aql' make wild guesses and decisions which it is not matured enough to make..

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Even if Khamenai is actually worthy enough, such innovations will most certainly give very unclean mullahs elsewhere, in other countries, the same sort of religiously endorsed expectation of executive power over people. Please think of all muslimeen all over the world. Thank you.

I have only one advice for you in context of above quote.. Please read Khutbae Mina delivered by Imam Hussian(as) in 59 AH at Mina to the Khwas / Scholars who assembled for Haj.. You will get your answer there.

Edited by shabib_jaisi, 28 January 2010 - 01:44 PM.

[Darth Vader]

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Please read Khutbae Mina delivered by Imam Hussian(as) in 59 AH at Mina to the Khwas / Scholars who assembled for Haj.. You will get your answer there.

I doubt that it empowers "scholars" who take considerable sums of money for sitting on the pulpit for Zikr-e-Hussain ? As another brother from the subcontinent you should know where I'm coming from when you quoted and answered with that. Who do you have in India who doesn't take lots of money for majalis or even ordinary "religious service" pray tell? It's very interesting. Simplify things for me and yourself too, you know.

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I have read about Imam Khomeini's life.. and i'll read more Insha Allah.. It is true that he was the best leader Muslims had in a long while.. But the questions is what should Muslims do after him ?.. Wait for a leader who is atleast as good as Imam before accepting the structure of Leadership ?.. And who will make this decision of choosing the leadership if and when it shows (atleast) the qualities of Imam Khomeini.. You, me or those scholars who sit at top of hierarchy. ??

If our top scholars chose someone as their Leader after Imam Khomeini(ar).. it is incumbent upon us to follow the advice of these great scholars.. If at any time the collective conscience of these scholars feels that the incumbent Leadership has lost maturity needed for this position, they shall speak up and move to bring a new Leadership in place.. I would rather believe those top scholars than letting my 'Aql' make wild guesses and decisions which it is not matured enough to make..

And I would rather obey the hadith ath-thaqalain. I have the Quran and considerable recorded sunnah of the Prophet and His blessed progeny . It's not like I, or any or all of us for that matter, are in a position to decide the flow of things but I am able to personally make a different decision and not follow the herd when it mistakenly follows a sheperd who is a wolf dressed in sheeps skin. Atleast I believe that the affects of this will only be told by time and are yet to be seen. However, when the time comes, I'll probably have to detach from the herd safely when your chosen leader leads you against the Quran and the teachings of Muhammad wa aal-e-Muhammad . Especially since scholars are not infallible at all, afterall. *hint* *hint*

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No one says that 12th Imam is unaware of our actions. That's besides the discussion going on here. Its not an excuse and no one is surrendering 'Aql' as it may seem to you. The top scholars of today are no ordinary Mullah as you seem to convey.. Majority of Shia Maraje (including those who died within last few years) were nobel souls and very high in state of knowledge and Taqwa.. And then there are some very well scholars (not Maraje but not less than that position) like Agae Bahjat, Agae Amoli etc who are highly credible.. If majority of such scholars feel/felt that one highly estemeed Scholar is eligible to be the leader of the Ummah during the occultation of Imam(as).. do you suggest that they all surrendered their 'Aql'.. I suspect they have better interaction with our 12th Imam(as) than the rest of us..

"Leader of the Ummah"? So like, Khamenai will free the Shia in Pakistan of all the oppression and discrimination? HAHAHAHA. That'll be the day. Goodluck with that. And if he has no power over the (entire) Ummah then what good is he as an "eligible leader of the ummah", pray tell. And again, no one is stopping you from suspecting that all scholars are the agents of the Imam . I had no intention to argue with you.

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I have only one question to your above statement.. Do you have a Bahlol Dana now ?. If yes please let me know.
Or do you have any other Saint who gives away houses in Jannah ?

Yes and no. Yes, because there are still such saints in the world, indeed, and no because we're, or most of us are, unable to recognize them these days and there is a purpose behind that as well. Just follow the mullah. Come back when life has taught you enough, that is, if you are learning along the way. And before you dangle your argument, jannah is not for everyone and hence its not "given" to anyone by a saint's own free will. When Bahlol gave its news, it was according to the will of Allah, not his own. But then, the mullah won't teach you such things unless he's tired of eating your zakat and khums.

Edited by Ibrahim Nakhaee, 28 January 2010 - 02:11 PM.

[shabib_jaisi]

Ibrahim Nakhaee, on 28 January 2010 - 02:08 PM, said:

I doubt that it empowers "scholars" who take considerable sums of money for sitting on the pulpit for Zikr-e-Hussain ? As another brother from the subcontinent you should know where I'm coming from when you quoted and answered with that. Who do you have in India who doesn't take lots of money for majalis or even ordinary "religious service" pray tell? It's very interesting. Simplify things for me and yourself too, you know.

By the way i was not referring to those who take money for sitting on pulpit when i asked you to refer to Khutbae Mina.. My intention was for you to see what role Imam Hussain(as) has suggested for scholars of religion.. he lays down the guidelines for those who call themselves scholars..

Also i know quite a few people in India who do not take lots of money for performing religious services.. If you need any help in India please do let me know i may try to help you incase such people are free.. Infact everywhere you'll find scholars who'll not take lots of money for performing religious scholars.. and you'll find people otherwise.. Increase your social contacts and go and meet good scholars in your nation..

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And I would rather obey the hadith ath-thaqalain. I have the Quran and considerable recorded sunnah of the Prophet and His blessed progeny . It's not like I, or any or all of us for that matter, are in a position to decide the flow of things but I am able to personally make a different decision and not follow the herd when it mistakenly follows a sheperd who is a wolf dressed in sheeps skin. Atleast I believe that the affects of this will only be told by time and are yet to be seen. However, when the time comes, I'll probably have to detach from the herd safely when your chosen leader leads you against the Quran and the teachings of Muhammad wa aal-e-Muhammad . Especially since scholars are not infallible at all, afterall. *hint* *hint*

So that means those top scholars are not obeying the Hadith and Quran and Sunnah of Prophet ??
And i have another supplementry question.. Was Imam Khomeini infallible at all, afterall ?????

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"Leader of the Ummah"? So like, Khamenai will free the Shia in Pakistan of all the oppression and discrimination? HAHAHAHA. That'll be the day. Goodluck with that. And if he has no power over the (entire) Ummah then what good is he as an "eligible leader of the ummah", pray tell. And again, no one is stopping you from suspecting that all scholars are the agents of the Imam . I had no intention to argue with you.

I am not suspecting that all scholars are agents of Imam(as).. but those who are best in Taqwa and Knowledge, they do are.. i feel sorry for you if you don't believe so..
If majority of such scholars believe in this Leadership i'll follow their advise.. you please continue following your Aql..
Btw.. was Imam Khomeini "Leader of the Ummah"?

And now on your laughing comments

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So like, Khamenai will free the Shia in Pakistan of all the oppression and discrimination? HAHAHAHA.

Did Shias escape oppression and discrimination during the Holy lives of our 12 Imams(as) ??.. If not then how can this be a guideline today..

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Yes and no. Yes, because there are still such saints in the world, indeed, and no because we're, or most of us are, unable to recognize them these days and there is a purpose behind that as well.

Indeed there may be, but do you personally know or recognize any such saint in today's world ?.. If yes, would you please let us know so that we too can try following him and benefit from him?..

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Just follow the mullah. Come back when life has taught you enough, that is, if you are learning along the way. And before you dangle your argument, jannah is not for everyone and hence its not "given" to anyone by a saint's own free will. When Bahlol gave its news, it was according to the will of Allah, not his own. But then, the mullah won't teach you such things unless he's tired of eating your zakat and khums.

Don't worry about my Khums and Zakat.. i give it according to the suggestions made by Maraje.. You have become too delusional to distinguish between a Mullah and a scholar.. may be for you Agae Bahjat was a Mullah.. and so is Agae Makarem Shirazi and Agae Amoli.. and probably Agae Tabrizi and Lankarani were also a Mullah..

Edited by shabib_jaisi, 28 January 2010 - 03:07 PM.

[The Persian Shah]

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I unquestionably reject the assertion that Ayatullah Khamenei is the ONLY Wali al-`Amr. As for whether the ulemah collectively count as the Awliyaa al-`Amr for Muslimeen, I don't reject this as a possible interpretation of the Islamic concept of wilayah, but I think it is very unlikely to be Islamically valid, hence I don't accept it for practical every-day purposes.

"Practical every-day" purposes ? Two legitimised contradictory statements ? The purport of the message is: "I just don't know". Make up your mind..

Fuqaha are the guardians of the affairs of the Muslims, YES or NO.

[Darth Vader]

*yawn*

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Indeed there may be, but do you personally know or recognize any such saint in today's world ?.. If yes, would you please let us know so that we too can try following him and benefit from him?..

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may be for you Agae Bahjat was a Mullah.. and so is Agae Makarem Shirazi and Agae Amoli.. and probably Agae Tabrizi and Lankarani were also a Mullah..

Yes, and I have already answered the rest.

I never heard of those names you mentioned. Am I going to hell because of that sin? A mullah is a blind bat, or a donkey laden with books. He never grasps the spirit of Islam and remains a wanabe. Like I said, a mullah has nothing to do with the words "wali" and "amr". Now let me ask you something instead, have you ever seen a scholar who is a waliullah? How many scholars do you know who can pray for you and "make it happen"? Who can make it rain? Who can make the raindrops not fall upon you? Who can fix you car with a simple prayer? Especially since they, according to you, follow the Quran and sunnah to the letter and in a better way than all others in the ummah? How about you show me Khamenai praying for a diseased rat and that rat getting healthy. If they can do nothing of the sort, then whats the reason. You'll find all your answers very simply when contemplating that thing.

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Also i know quite a few people in India who do not take lots of money for performing religious services.. If you need any help in India please do let me know i may try to help you incase such people are free.. Infact everywhere you'll find scholars who'll not take lots of money for performing religious scholars.. and you'll find people otherwise.. Increase your social contacts and go and meet good scholars in your nation..

How interesting. The same, unfortunately, doesn't hold true in Pakistan and it makes me think that you're lying. Sitting on the pulpit and moving the crowd during majalis is a profitable business here that attracts even Sunnis and other non-Shia speakers and their pimps who take their cut, or commission. Even if you're not lying, the people who do take no money to sit on the pulpit to do zikr-e-Hussain are NEVER going to become your supreme leaders. Instead, rest assured that Sajid Naqvi or a similar fat mullah from Pakistan will claim that title for himself because they have the money and power to do so. I'm surprised to see why you keep overlooking this basic flaw with the idea.

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Did Shias escape oppression and discrimination during the Holy lives of our 12 Imams(as) ??.. If not then how can this be a guideline today..

I think my question was simpler but you're continuously weasling out of all presented arguments. For a reply like your own, what on earth makes you compare Imams with "scholars"? A degree from Qumm means absolutely nothing except that the person has studied Islamic religion for a while. It does not guarantee infallibility or a straight path. Especially when you have peculiarly contradicting examples like Fadhlallah which should be evidence enough for that. Now let me ask you another question, since you're so fond of asking pointless questions. What makes Khamenai so special?

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Btw.. was Imam Khomeini "Leader of the Ummah"?

Imam Khomeini was an outstanding leader and Islamic personality. Had he asked for obedience of people living in other countries I'm sure people would have flocked to answer his call. Now please don't ask me why. You're arguing on aimlessly like an immature youngling to be completely honest. Your criteria, like I said, is a degree of Qumm, white old beard, scholarly appearance, powerful position, and such things are what makes Khamenai eligible in your view for the title under discussion. That is no criteria at all. A good history of right worthy and Islamic actions should have been the criteria instead. You'll keep electing the most powerful figures with your criteria, not the most faithful ones who are the weightiest in their faith. People who don't afford flowing arabic garbs and comfortable chairs. People unfamilar with the arts of speech and moving a crowd. Your idea is full of flaws. The 61.40% of SC'ers do not agree with you for such simple enough reasons that you fail to grasp, not because we are kuffar who disbelieve in the supreme authority of "scholars". You have a lot of definitions to define, lot of criterias to render, and lot of problems and obstacles to remove in that whole system of selection etc. The authority of Qumm graduates over the entire ummah is nothing less than laughable. What hadith do you have for Qumm graduates or even "madrassa's"? How many "madrassa's" did our Prophets and Imams build and which one did they graduate from? I can't help but refuse to share your inferiority complex. Humility is to be shown before God, not before scholarly figures who can speak for years but remain unable to revive a rat even at the end of their pious and holy lives lived in black and white expensive clothes and wearing long beards. I can respect them and take their guidance in the various matters of religion and that is the extent of their intended purpose.

And if you want more serious replies from me then you'll have to answer all my previous and latest questions. If you want to waste my time and are more worried about winning your argument than about finding the truth then please don't bother asking for a reply.

Edited by Ibrahim Nakhaee, 28 January 2010 - 06:33 PM.