147 replies to this topic

[Basim Ali]

,
Well it is considered Makruh. The second Ayatullah said so. Let's wait for answers from Ayatullah Khamenei.
You can ask your question to Ayatullah Sistani though. But be sure not to ask it on najaf.org, but on sistani.org, since najaf.org gives answers in the form of a single statement, without going into much detail.


Basim Ali Jafri

[Zenshiite]

I still haven't received answers for the question I sent...

[macisaac]

Ok, first response received.  Question sent was:

نجد في الكافي
علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عمير عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : اللحم ينبت اللحم ، ومن تركه أربعين يوما ساء خلقه ، ومن ساء خلقه فأذنوا في اذنه
فإذا كان الشخص لن أكل اللحوم لمدة أربعين يوما أو أكثر في وقت واحد (عن قصد ، عندما اللحم الحلال المتاحة لهم)هل هذا هو مكروه؟

We find in al-Kafi:


Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah . He said: Flesh builds flesh, and one who abandons it for forty days his creation (or, his character, khalq) becomes evil (or, is harmed). And whoso's creation becomes evil, then call the adhan in his ear.

So if the person does not eat meats for a period of forty days or more in a single time (intentionally, when halal meat is available to them) is this makrooh?



Response received from the office of Sayyid al-Hakim:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم وله الحمد

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

ج ـ نعم لا ينبغي ترك اكل اللحم اكثر من اربعين يوماً على ما هو مذكور في الرواية


Answer - Yes, it is not appropriate to abandon eating meat for more than forty days upon what is mentioned in the riwayat.

(Translation of response is mine)

[Basim Ali]

,
^ Wow, that was fast...


Basim Ali Jafri

[macisaac]

Basim Ali, on 05 November 2009 - 05:24 AM, said:

,
^ Wow, that was fast...


Basim Ali Jafri

Yup, first time I send a question in Arabic though to an office.  Sounds like it really is a good idea to do so...

[Basim Ali]

,
Got another answer (but I wonder why it was in my Junk Folder )
ÈÇÚÑÖ ÓáÇãº

Ì- Èå ØæÑ ˜áí ÇäÓÇä ÈÇíÏ  ÇÒ Âäå ÎÏÇæäÏ ÂÝÑíÏå æ Âä ÑÇ ÍáÇá ÞÑÇÑ ÏÇÏå¡ ÇÓÊÝÇÏå ˜äÏ æáí Èå åÑ ÍÇá¡ ÇÓÊÝÇÏå ä˜ÑÏä ÇÒ íÒåÇí ÍáÇá¡ ãäÚ ÔÑÚí äÏÇÑÏ ãÑ Çíä ˜å ÈÑÇí ÈÏä ÖÑÑ ÏÇÔÊå ÈÇÔÏ ˜å ÏÑ Çíä ÕæÑÊ¡ ÇÓÊÝÇÏå ÇÒ ÇãËÇá æÔÊ ÈÑÇí ÍÝÙ ÓáÇãÊí æÇÌÈ ÎæÇåÏ ÈæÏ.



In The Name of Allah (SWT)



Thanks for your e-mail. Regarding your question:

Generally, the man should use from all the blessings created and also considered Halal by the Almighty Allah. By the way, there is not Islamically and religiously no problem if someone doesn't use from Halal things unless it would be harmful if s/he doesn't use them; and if so, it is obligatory to use the things, for example meat as mentioned in your e-mail, to conserve one's health.

Best regards,

Office of Grand Ayatollah Saanei


Basim Ali Jafri

[kadhim]

So, so far the verdicts are 100% in support of the permissibility religiously of vegetarian diets as a choice.

[.InshAllah.]

The hadith says that meat leads to the growth of meat , and whoever doesnt eat meat for 40 days then his creation is spoiled.  

Could we deduce from this that the reason for eating meat is tissue growth/maintenence, and that this is why its important to eat it?  If you dont eat enough protein (which theres a lot of in meat) then you lose muscle mass and tissue repair becomes disrupted ('creation is spoiled').

If so, would that mean if you ensure that tissue growth etc is  maintained through other means eg eating a vegetarian diet rich in protein, then eating meat no longer becomes wajib?  I wonder if this is why Sayid Sistani [r] says its not makruh or haraam to abstain from meat.  

One possible difficulty with this is that it says 'and whoever' rather than 'therefore whoever'.

Macisaac have you read any treatises on this by ulema?

Edited by .InshAllah., 05 November 2009 - 02:54 PM.

[Awakened]

If you don't like the treatement of farms, just eat some fish 1/40 days.

[macisaac]

I have not, though it'd be interesting to see.  While the first part is talking about something physical (flesh building flesh), I'm not sure whether the "creation" here is referring to their body per say or more their character.  Where it then says to call the adhan in their ear leads me to thinking the latter, but I don't know.


Incidentally, if you've not seen them here's the chapter in Wasa'il on this topic (about the karaha of not eating meat for forty days):


http://rafed.net/boo...l-25/02.html#13

(chapter 12)

As to "Sayyid Sistani's" response, you should know that's not likely really coming from him...

[Zenshiite]

It's pretty hard not to get enough protein for you body to function on a vegetarian diet. Just for the average person, and even for an athletic diet it's really not a problem at all. I can only see that "flesh builds flesh" argument working in a situation where you can't get protein readily on a vegetarian diet and I'm not really sure what that would be... not in this day and age.

[Salehe]

Greetings Thabo, I've read what you have written and watched the videos as well. my breathing becomes heavy and every cell in me is vibrating against the cruelty in this world to living, feeling creation of god. and I read somewhere on this discussion that someone thought that it doesn't matter how the animals are treated; because it's not written in a book or something then you don't have to concern yourself with it.  This is the message of this part of god to him: what about your inborn conscience, maybe Allah, god, it,... is talking to you every second of your life through your conscience. Creation is not stupid to send us here without a thread from the core of creation. the guide is inside, you don't need a quote from ouside to tell you cruelty to living SENSING beings are allowed or not. What if; that which has created feels the pain of its creation. Thank you for being there Thabo, I feel the essence of justice and leadership from you. warm greetings, salehe.

[Irum]

Salam

This post is very interesting, yet weird...

i was a vegeterian for the past 12 years...none of us were veg coz of religion..but out of choice...till i converted...

my parents (hindu) believe that if u DO eat meat, it affects the mind and soul and makes a person more angry, less calm etc. etc. (theyyre completely into stress mangement, breathing exercises, yoga, etc.)they dont kno tht ive converted..or tht i eat meat...so in a way it was good for me when i went to india..coz i dint have to eat NON HALAL meat:)
but anyway..ye...whenever they find out my brother eats meat (he does it for protein), they get really angry coz itll affect his mental n emotional state...since "u are wht u eat" and if u eat animals, u become like them...n all their toxins tht were there at time of slaughter, come into ur body.........(i wes tol tht this isnt the case in halal meat tho its not direct chop off..n its k coz a vein is slit at throat)

Personally, i had EXACTLY the same opinions as Thabo and would fight alll the way for vegetarianism...cudnt STAND the idea of eatin a dead animal..i wudve died before letting tht hapen!........untill i read the Quran and clearly saw that its written there that Allah swt has sent the animals for us to eat...it was enuf for me to not debate about it anymore...

Regarding the videos posted..i would use all these kinds of HORRIBLE videos to prove to my nonveg frnds how horrible it is..but then, none of the stuff was halal..all the mass production is haram..and the treatment of all these animals as done in US/ Europe is haram, which is y even living in UAE, i always ask if the meat is halal (coz imported meat wouldnt count since we have the choice of local meat)

i dont think anyone shuld be completely against meat OR completely crazy bout meat...tho i literally live on it, since i cant eat any of the food made in my house coz made by hindus using wet hands, and outside u dont get enuf veg variety:(only the hindu restaurants here give ALOT of veg varieties....

PS: how bad is it if i eat at home?like on weekends and stuff?i dont have a choice otherwise ill starve...n eating out so much is also unhealthy..i dunno what to do...

thnks

jazakAllah:)

[Irum]

^^Yep thats precisely my issue...everything is always cut/chopped/peeled n stuff with wet hands...well atleast more often than not...
so im confused about what to do:(

[alial1234]

Then don't eat the food. As a percaution, try to eat somewhere else.

[Irum]

alial1234, on 09 November 2009 - 04:46 PM, said:

Then don't eat the food. As a percaution, try to eat somewhere else.

i do that wheneverr possible...i eat in college ALL THE TIME...but its too unhealthy and expensive...
n i live at home...im still a student..my parents are already realy angry that i dont eat anything healthy such as home cooked vegtables, or food in general..

altho i try eatin healthy stuff such as salads..thers no other healthy option in university...n i cant eat the same thing every dayy:(
so i dont know what to do bout that...
and on the weekends, everything is always made at home...i try convincing my parents to go out for a meal or order...but thats just 1-2 meals out of 4-5...

[alial1234]

Try explaining to them the laws of islam. You never know they might become muslims too.

[kadhim]

smiley, on 08 November 2009 - 05:34 PM, said:

^There are differences of opinion regarding eating non-meat items prepared by polytheists, however, as I understand it, if the food has not been touched with wetness on the hands, it is ok to eat.

Note as well that there are maraja who say that the notion of certain humans being inherently unclean based on their religious beliefs alone is baseless. That hands of a  person only becomes unclean by touching something unclean, like pig, unclean meat, urine, feces, etc. That non-believer is not one of the categories of essentially najis things.

With due respect to those maraja who think differently, I frankly don't understand how it is practical to live in lands where Muslims are a minority or even where there are different types of people otherwise.

Edited by kadhim, 09 November 2009 - 05:17 PM.

[kadhim]

alial1234, on 09 November 2009 - 05:06 PM, said:

Try explaining to them the laws of islam. You never know they might become muslims too.

Or get turned away from it more. People can tend to get kind of sensitive if you tell them they are essentially dirty based solely on what they believe.

[Irum]

ummm..they dont know that ive converted...

they hav issues with islam (like most hindus)....so theres no wayyy i can possibly try xplaining islamic laws...they already feel its tooo consevative (i live in UAE so theyre fully aware of the religion)

y i thot about learning cooking...but my issue is time..

i get home way after mghrib, fall asleep (or come on shiachat late night) n then leave again next morning...lol

[Basim Ali]

,
From Ayatullah Fadlallah:
áÇ ãÇäÚ ãä ÇáäÇÍíÉ ÇáÔÑÚíÉ Ãä íßæä ÇáÅäÓÇä äÈÇÊíÇð¡ ÝÅä Ãßá ÇááÍæã áíÓ æÇÌÈÇð ÔÑÚÇð ÅáÇ ãä ÌåÉ ÍÝÙ ÇáÅäÓÇä äÝÓå ãä ÇáåáÇß æÍÝÙ ÕÍÊå ãä ÇáÃãÑÇÖ æÇáäÞÕ ÇáÛÐÇÆí ÇáãÖÑ ÈåÇ¡ æãä ÇáãÚáæã ÍÇÌÉ ÇáÌÓã ááÍæã ÈãÞÏÇÑ ãÍÏæÏ áÇ ÅÝÑÇØ Ýíå æáÇ ÊÝÑíØ¡ ÝíäÈÛí ÈÇáÅäÓÇä ãÑÇÚÇÉ Ðáß¡ æáßä ÅÐÇ æÕá ÇáÃãÑ ãÑÍáÉ ÇáÖÑÑ ÇáÕÍí ãä ÚÏã ÊäÇæá ÇááÍæã ÍÑã Úáíå Ðáß æÅáÇ áã íßä ÍÑÇãÇð.

(can anybody translate this? )


Basim Ali Jafri

[Jondab_Azdi]

^Roughly, its saying that there is no prohibition in shariah to be a vegetarian and eating meat is not wajib shar'an, but, if the lack of eating meat is causing harm to his health then it would be haram for him to not eat meat.

w/s

[macisaac]

Got the reply from Sayyid Rohani, but... I don't actually understand all of what he wrote.  Can anyone help out (even if you can just transliterate it or even better type out the Arabic so that I might know what the handwritten Arabic is)?

[.InshAllah.]

ÇÐÇ ÑÇì ÇáÔÇÑÚ ÇáÇÞÏÓ Ýí Çä ÊÑß Çßá ÇááÍã ÓíÊÑÊÈ Úáíå ÓæÁ ÇáÎáÞ æÊÑÊÈå ÇäãÇ íßæä ÈäÍæ ÇáÇÞÊÖÇÁ áÇ ÈäÍæ ÇáÚáíÉ  ÇáÊÇãÉ ? ÝÇí ãÇäÚ ãä ÌÚá ÇáßÑÇåíÉ Úáì Ðáß

Edited by .InshAllah., 15 November 2009 - 07:08 PM.

[macisaac]

JazakAllah khayr.

Umm, up to trying to translate it?  I'm still not sure I really follow what he's saying, though I might have a hunch.