147 replies to this topic

[Zenshiite]

Here's what I've gotten thus far.

Ayatullah Sanei:

Quote

ÈÇÚÑÖ ÓáÇãº

Ì- Èå ØæÑ ˜áی ÇäÓÇä ÈÇیÏ  ÇÒ Âäå ÎÏÇæäÏ ÂÝÑیÏå æ Âä ÑÇ ÍáÇá ÞÑÇÑ ÏÇÏå¡ ÇÓÊÝÇÏå ˜äÏ æáی Èå åÑ ÍÇá¡ ÇÓÊÝÇÏå ä˜ÑÏä ÇÒ یÒåÇی ÍáÇá¡ ãäÚ ÔÑÚی äÏÇÑÏ ãÑ Çیä ˜å ÈÑÇی ÈÏä ÖÑÑ ÏÇÔÊå ÈÇÔÏ ˜å ÏÑ Çیä ÕæÑÊ¡ ÇÓÊÝÇÏå ÇÒ ÇãËÇá æÔÊ ÈÑÇی ÍÝÙ ÓáÇãÊی æÇÌÈ ÎæÇåÏ ÈæÏ.

In The Name of Allah (SWT)



Thanks for your e-mail. Regarding your question:

Generally, the man should use from all the blessings created and also considered Halal by the Almighty Allah. By the way, there is not Islamically and religiously no problem if someone doesn't use from Halal things unless it would be harmful if s/he doesn't use them; and if so, it is obligatory to use the things, for example meat as mentioned in your e-mail, to conserve one's health.

Best regards,

Office of Grand Ayatollah Saanei

Sayyid Khamenei, via leader.ir(no Arabic reply was included):

        

Quote

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu.
The answer is as follows:

                                                         Bismihi Ta`ala

By itself, it is no problem.
With prayers for your success,
wassalam.

Sayyid Sistani, via al-sistani.org(no Arabic included):

Quote

In the name of Allah, the Most High

There is no problem in abstaining from eating meat or using such products.

Wassalam

I have not received anything from Sayyid Fadlullah as yet.

I posted the inquiry I sent earlier, if you want me to post that again let me know.

[macisaac]

Is he basically saying that when the Holy Lawgiver regards that abandoning eating meat brings about the evil/ill of creation and its ordering then what is there to prevent placing (the ruling) of karaha upon it?  The middle part I don't get though.

[Zenshiite]

Here's what I got from Sayyid Fadlullah. Anyone care to translate?

Quote

Ó) ÃæÏ ÇÓÊíÖÇÍ ÌæÇÒíÉ äÙÑíÉ ÇáäÈÇÊíÉ ÇáÅäÓÇä ÇáäÈÇÊí íÃßá ÇáÎÖÇÑ ÝÞØ æÞÏ íÊäÇæá ÇáÍáíÈ æãÔÊÞÇÊ ÇáÍáíÈ æÇáÈíÖ æãÊÌÇÊ ÃÎÑì ÊÃÊí ãä ÇáÍíæÇä ãä Ïæä ÐÈÍ æíãÊäÚ Úä ßÇÝÉ ÇáãäÊÌÇÊ ÇáÍíæÇäíÉ ÓæÇÁ ÃßáåÇ Ãæ ÇÑÊÏÇÆåÇ Ãæ ÇÓÊÎÏÇãåÇ ßÇáÔÇãÈæ æÃãæÑ ÃÎÑì íÓÊÎÏã ÝíåÇ ÚäÇÕÑ ÍíæÇäíÉ Ãæ ÊäÊÌåÇ ÔÑßÇÊ ÊÎÊÈÑ ãäÊÌÇÊåÇ Úáì ÇáÍíæÇäÇÊ Ýåá íÌæÒ Ãä íßæä ÇáãÓáã äÈÇÊíÇ ÍÊì áæ Ãä Çááå Íáá ÇááÍæã ÊÍÊ ÃÍßÇã ÎÇÕÉ áßä ÞÏ íßæä ááãÓáã ãÈÇÏìÁ ÔÎÕíÉ ÍíÇá ÅÓÊÎÏÇã ãäÊÌÇÊ ÇáÍíæÇäÇÊ Ýí ÇáÃØÚãÉ Ãæ ÇáãáÇÈÓ æÛíÑåÇ æÎÇÕÉ ÅÐÇ ßÇä áÐáß ÇáãÓáã ÊÍÝÙÇÊ ÔÎÕíÉ Úáì ÐÈÍ ÇáÍíæÇäÇÊ ááÃßá ÈäÝÓå æÈÇáÊÇáí áÇ íÔÚÑ Ãäå ãä ÇáÌíÏ ÇÓÊÎÏÇã ÃÍÏ ÂÎÑ ááÞíÇã ÈÐáß¿

            

ÈÅÓãå ÊÚÇáì:

Ì) áÇ íäÈÛí ÇáãÓáã ÅáÊÒÇã ØÑíÞ ÇáäÈÇÊííä ÇáãÐßæÑÉ æÇáÅãÊäÇÚ Úä Ãßá ÇááÍæã¡ áÃäå ãÎÇáÝ áåÏí ÇáÅÓáÇã æÊæÌíåÇÊå ÇáÊí ÊÍË ÇáÅäÓÇä Úáì ÊäÇæá ÇáØíÈÇÊ æÇáÊãÊÚ ÈåÇ¡ æãäåÇ ÇááÍæã¡ æÞÏ ÞÇá Çááå ÊÚÇáì:﴿ Þõáú ãóäú ÍóÑøóãó ÒöíäóÉó Çááøåö ÇáøóÊöíó ÃóÎúÑóÌó áöÚöÈóÇÏöåö æóÇáúØøóíøöÈóÇÊö ãöäó ÇáÑøöÒúÞö Þõáú åöí áöáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú Ýöí ÇáúÍóíóÇÉö ÇáÏøõäúíóÇ ÎóÇáöÕóÉð íóæúãó ÇáúÞöíóÇãóÉö ßóÐóáößó äõÝóÕøöáõ ÇáÂíóÇÊö áöÞóæúãò íóÚúáóãõæäó﴾¡ äÚã ÅÐÇ ÇãÊäÚ Úä Ðáß áÃäå ÛíÑ ãÊÃßÏ ãä ÊÐßíÊåÇ Úáì ÇáØÑíÞÉ ÇáÅÓáÇãíÉ¡ Ýåæ ÃãÑ ÌíÏ ææÇÌÈ.  

                    

                            

æÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã æÑÍãÉ Çááå æÈÑßÇÊå



ãßÊÈ ÇáÇÓÊÝÊÇÁÇÊ áÓãÇÍÉ ÇáÚáÇãÉ ÇáãÑÌÚ

ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáÚÙãì ÇáÓíÏ ãÍãÏ ÍÓíä ÝÖá Çááå

                (ÏÇã Ùáå)

                                

                  

                         18 ÐæÇáÞÚÏÉ 1430åÜ

[macisaac]

/\ The response translates to:

Bismihi ta`ala

Answer – It is not appropriate for the Muslim to abide by the aforementioned path of vegetarians and abstaining from eating meats, for it is opposing the guidance of Islam and its orientations which urge man to eat the good things and to enjoy them, and from them are the meats.  And Allah ta`ala has said “Say: 'Who has forbidden the ornament of Allah which He brought forth for His servants, and the good things of His providing?' Say: 'These, on the Day of Resurrection, shall be exclusively for those who believed in the present life. So We distinguish the signs for a people who know.'”  Yes, if one abstains from that because he is uncertain as to its slaughtering being upon the Islamic manner then it is a good matter and wajib.

[Zenshiite]

^Interesting. I know people have gotten responses from him saying it was no problem before. Curious.

[Maitham]

Zenshiite, on 17 November 2009 - 02:58 AM, said:

^Interesting. I know people have gotten responses from him saying it was no problem before. Curious.

the question may be is one from his office and one from him?
at the bottom of yours it said the office of fadlallah.
also i would like to see what did basim ask him exactly and what did you ask him exactly? could you both post? because if he says it is permissible for when one cannot find hallal and not when one can. lets investigate!


i know not a good translator but Google translate shows a little different to basims so can we also examine these arabic ones closely.

Arabic to English translation:

I do not mind in terms of legal rights to be vegetarian, the meat-eating is not only legally obligatory point of keeping oneself from destruction and preservation of health from diseases and harmful to the food shortage, it is known the body's need for meat is not limited by the excessive or negligence, human beings should be taken into account , but if it reached the stage of health damage from lack of eating meat forbidden to him that, or was not forbidden.

Edited by theunknownpreacher, 17 November 2009 - 05:35 AM.

[Gasy]

smiley, on 22 October 2009 - 01:18 PM, said:

If canned tuna counts,

                                                                Slm     canned  tuna  with or without scales ?

[Zenshiite]

This is what I sent all the maraji that I contacted regarding vegetarianism/veganism.

Quote

As salaam alaikum,

Could you please clarify for me the permissibility of being vegetarian or vegan?

Vegetarianism usually consists of eating only vegetables, though one may partake of milk and milk products, eggs and other similar foodstuffs that are taken from living animals without killing them.

Veganism consists of abstaining from all animal products, either consuming them, wearing them or using any shampoos or other such things that have animal derived ingredients in them or were produced by companies that do product testing on animals.

Is it permissible for a Muslim to be vegetarian or vegan if they recognize that Allah has made meat eating halal under certain provisions, even though the individual Muslim might have personal ethical qualms about the use of animals for food, clothing or other such things for himself? Especially if that Muslim has personal reservations about slaughtering an animal he intends to eat himself and therefore does not feel it would be right of him to hire someone else out to do it for him?

[Maitham]

Zenshiite, on 17 November 2009 - 12:09 PM, said:

This is what I sent all the maraji that I contacted regarding vegetarianism/veganism.

very good you gave a very in depth question, okay now can we get brother basim to post what he sent? and perhaps someone can re translate what he received? as in Google translate it said Eating meat is obligatory.

[kadhim]

theunknownpreacher, on 17 November 2009 - 01:14 PM, said:

very good you gave a very in depth question, okay now can we get brother basim to post what he sent? and perhaps someone can re translate what he received? as in Google translate it said Eating meat is obligatory.

Basim already posted this. Please read the thread. The Google translation did not produce English, but gibberish. Someone already provided a translation of the relevant text.

[Maitham]

kadhim, on 17 November 2009 - 01:51 PM, said:

Basim already posted this. Please read the thread. The Google translation did not produce English, but gibberish. Someone already provided a translation of the relevant text.

i did read the thread brother and also you may notice brother jondab said Rough translation!
although i did not see where basim posted what he sent? i will look it over. also one should notice that fadlallah said under shariah it is not forbidden to be a vegetarian but also advised that as long as it causes no harm, and we know not eating some meat at least some, causes harm.

Edited by theunknownpreacher, 17 November 2009 - 02:32 PM.

[Zenshiite]

^Scientifically, nutrtionally speaking... not eating meat does not cause harm.

[macisaac]

Zenshiite, on 17 November 2009 - 06:03 PM, said:

^Scientifically, nutrtionally speaking... not eating meat does not cause harm.

Not really, have fun getting your B12 from something that hasn't come from an animal.  Then there's all the nutrients that unless you're very, very careful chances are you will have deficiencies in, such as your protein, iron, calcium (for vegans), the nine essential amino acids and other vitamins and minerals.  It is diet that the human body is not naturally made for and which historically no human society has lived off of, causing you to have to jump through loads of hoops to try to stay somewhat healthy (and even there, you can't without cheating i.e. on your B12).

[Zenshiite]

For someone that claims to have been vegetarian you're incredibly ignorant about veg/vegan nutrition. Thanks for playing.

You're also making such huge mistakes in logic. The human body, scientifically speaking, is constructed far more closely to the primate body than any other animal. We have the taxonomy for diets much more similar to great apes and chimps, ie heavy on roughage light on protein. Especially animal based protein. Whether you believe in evolution or not, the structural comparison is factual. And, actually, most great apes are frugivores(ie, fruitarians). We also observe that in most traditional societies meat isn't eaten nearly as much as it is in modern society. The Prophet's(sal) sunnah, for instance, is to have less meat and a more plant-based diet. The same is true of hunter-gatherer societies.

Human beings can thrive on a 100% plant-based diet, where as they sicken and die on a 100% meat-based diet. We are not carnivores, nor are we omnivores along the lines of the bear. We are omnivores that should, and naturally tend towards, eating mostly plants.

One last thing, to drop some science on your head about B12.... vitamin B12 is certainly found largely in animal products in this day and age. Which is due primarily to what is done with our modern food supply. Cows, chickens, etc do not produce vitamin B12, they get it from plants that they eat and the soil stuck to the plants. B12 is found in the ground! I'm saying eat dirt, but that's just the science. Bacteria in the ground biosynthesize the stuff, and those bacteria are also found in the human gut and that of ruminant animals. Furthermore, a supplement pill isn't even entirely necessary considering that so many foods... including cereals and soy milks are fortified with many vitamins and minerals these days, including B12.

You should actually have knowledge before you go spouting off about something dude.

Edited by Zenshiite, 18 November 2009 - 11:09 AM.

[kadhim]

Zenshiite, on 18 November 2009 - 10:38 AM, said:

For someone that claims to have been vegetarian you're incredibly ignorant about veg/vegan nutrition. Thanks for playing.

You're also making such huge mistakes in logic. The human body, scientifically speaking, is constructed far more closely to the primate body than any other animal. We have the taxonomy for diets much more similar to great apes and chimps, ie heavy on roughage light on protein. Especially animal based protein. Whether you believe in evolution or not, the structural comparison is factual. And, actually, most great apes are frugivores(ie, fruitarians). We also observe that in most traditional societies meat isn't eaten nearly as much as it is in modern society. The Prophet's(sal) sunnah, for instance, is to have less meat and a more plant-based diet. The same is true of hunter-gatherer societies.

Human beings can thrive on a 100% plant-based diet, where as they sicken and die on a 100% meat-based diet. We are not carnivores, nor are we omnivores along the lines of the bear. We are omnivores that should, and naturally tend towards, eating mostly plants.

One last thing, to drop some science on your head about B12.... vitamin B12 is certainly found largely in animal products in this day and age. Which is due primarily to what is done with our modern food supply. Cows, chickens, etc do not produce vitamin B12, they get it from plants that they eat and the soil stuck to the plants. B12 is found in the ground! I'm saying eat dirt, but that's just the science. Bacteria in the ground biosynthesize the stuff, and those bacteria are also found in the human gut and that of ruminant animals. Furthermore, a supplement pill isn't even entirely necessary considering that so many foods... including cereals and soy milks are fortified with many vitamins and minerals these days, including B12.

You should actually have knowledge before you go spouting off about something dude.

Ahem. Pwned, as they say.  

[macisaac]

kadhim, on 18 November 2009 - 03:00 PM, said:

Ahem. Pwned, as they say.  

Err, how?  Sure you can pop some pills or eat processed food where they've injected the stuff in it, but how would that qualify as a normal, naturally available diet that human beings in their creation would be intended for?  Doesn't really matter where the B12 originates from, fact is the only known source from which it is naturally indigestible by humans comes via animal products.  As to the rest, if you read what I was saying it was that yes, if a person jumps through a bunch of hoops and is very very careful they can find substitutes for a lot of that, but then, why jump through those hoops instead of simply partaking in what our Creator has provided for us and in accordance with the Sunna?  As to the point of saying humans are geared towards being omnivores and not carnivores, who's arguing for us to be carnivores?   And as to being omnivores, isn't that what I'm saying?  The only one's advocating an extreme one-sided diet here are those pushing for veganism while what I'm saying (and what our religion is saying) is a balanced diet that includes meat and non-meat foodstuffs which is what an omnivorous diet is.

As to the health benefits and disadvantages, you should realize that most people promoting veganism are doing so out of an ethical conviction that killing and eating animals is morally wrong.  Health issues when weighed against that moral paradigm are secondary.  So when you find claims of it being completely healthy, natural, risk free, etc., being propagated by them, you should keep in mind they're hardly providing you an unbiased assessment of it.  Consult with actual non-politicized nutritionists and doctors, and I'd gather that moderate meat consumption is going to be a pretty standard recommendation.

All that said, the real decider for us here should be what our religion tells us.  And on that issue, I can't see how it could possibly be clearer as to 1) there is nothing inherently unethical with killing and eating animals 2) in fact, in certain circumstances their slaughtering is mandated for us as a religious obligation 3) properly slaughtered meat is halal to consume 4) eating meat is recommended and a custom our Prophet and Imams did and encouraged and 5) not eating meat for more than forty days at a time is spoken against.  Put all those together, how could one then claim that there's no conflict between willful vegetarianism/veganism and Islamic ethics?

[gogiison2]

lol @ vegetarians. they kill plants!

[Zenshiite]

macisaac, on 18 November 2009 - 06:09 PM, said:

Err, how?  Sure you can pop some pills or eat processed food where they've injected the stuff in it, but how would that qualify as a normal, naturally available diet that human beings in their creation would be intended for?  Doesn't really matter where the B12 originates from, fact is the only known source from which it is naturally indigestible by humans comes via animal products.  As to the rest, if you read what I was saying it was that yes, if a person jumps through a bunch of hoops and is very very careful they can find substitutes for a lot of that, but then, why jump through those hoops instead of simply partaking in what our Creator has provided for us and in accordance with the Sunna?  As to the point of saying humans are geared towards being omnivores and not carnivores, who's arguing for us to be carnivores?   And as to being omnivores, isn't that what I'm saying?  The only one's advocating an extreme one-sided diet here are those pushing for veganism while what I'm saying (and what our religion is saying) is a balanced diet that includes meat and non-meat foodstuffs which is what an omnivorous diet is.

As to the health benefits and disadvantages, you should realize that most people promoting veganism are doing so out of an ethical conviction that killing and eating animals is morally wrong.  Health issues when weighed against that moral paradigm are secondary.  So when you find claims of it being completely healthy, natural, risk free, etc., being propagated by them, you should keep in mind they're hardly providing you an unbiased assessment of it.  Consult with actual non-politicized nutritionists and doctors, and I'd gather that moderate meat consumption is going to be a pretty standard recommendation.

All that said, the real decider for us here should be what our religion tells us.  And on that issue, I can't see how it could possibly be clearer as to 1) there is nothing inherently unethical with killing and eating animals 2) in fact, in certain circumstances their slaughtering is mandated for us as a religious obligation 3) properly slaughtered meat is halal to consume 4) eating meat is recommended and a custom our Prophet and Imams did and encouraged and 5) not eating meat for more than forty days at a time is spoken against.  Put all those together, how could one then claim that there's no conflict between willful vegetarianism/veganism and Islamic ethics?

Easily, and it's been done ad infinitum. It doesn't need justified, furthermore... when the majority of maraji consulted on the matter say there is no problem YOU are bound to accept that.

Secondly, your science is horribly flawed and so is your knowledge of the nutrition sciences. The only thing which actual nutritionists recommend for vegans is a b12 supplement, and again... that's not really an issue at all. You can talk all you want about finding things "naturally" and it ultimately doesn't matter one bit. There is zero science supporting the notion that one would be harmed in not eating meat every 40 days when one can easily obtain all necessary nutrition from a plant based diet. The 40 day recommendation was done in a time period when this wasn't nearly as possible and in a culture that 1) doesn't have a history of vegetarianism and especially not lifelong vegetarianism and 2) doesn't have a history of making protein rich plant based food like tofu, tempeh, seitan/wheat gluten, etc. One doesn't have to heavily processed modern foods in order to get all necessary nutrition, that's a total fallacy. It tells me that you were a pretty crappy vegetarian, if indeed you ever were one, before you decided that meat eating is wajib based on your own qiyas. Plenty of nutrition is found in vegetarian diets in Asian, for instance, amongst monastic martial arts practitioners. And while the Buddhist vegetarianism is done ethically, it's also considered ethical to keep one's self healthy.

I'm not even going to continue this discussion, you have been schooled and you choose to continue in your ignorance and arrogance. Take care.

wa Salaam

[alial1234]

The only other choice is to eat soy. Soy is soaked in a toxic substance then it is heavily processed till there are messes up nutrients left . Soy also contains estrogens, which are bad in excess for males and females. For now, i sticking to meat.

[Zenshiite]

^Not entirely true. However, the "only choice" is not simply to eat soy. Again, get some knowledge then come and play.

[macisaac]

Another reply, this from Shaykh Bashir Najafi's office:

[Basim Ali]

,
^How'd you get him to answer? I visited his site, and couldn't find an option for e-mailing him my question. The only option I saw was sending my question to Pakistan or Iraq, by post. :S


Basim Ali Jafri

Edited by Basim Ali, 25 November 2009 - 01:36 PM.

[macisaac]

Basim Ali, on 25 November 2009 - 01:35 PM, said:

,
^How'd you get him to answer? I visited his site, and couldn't find an option for e-mailing him my question. The only option I saw was sending my question to Pakistan or Iraq, by post. :S


Basim Ali Jafri

Hmm, I thought I just went through the site, but now I'm not seeing a link for it.  Went away?  Anyhow, you might try one of these (I wouldn't send this same question since we already have the answer from them):


english@alnajafy.com (listed on that english contact page)
info@alnajafy.com (the one that responded to me (Arabic))

[Basim Ali]

Ok, thanks. Can you just add it this thread, in case anybody needs it later:
http://www.shiachat....and-ayotallahs/

Thanks again.

Basim Ali Jafri

[Basim Ali]

,
Got my answer from Mohammad Al-Hilli (on another forum):
http://www.cyconline...ianismveganism/

wa