80 replies to this topic

[Basim Ali]

,
Would you marry such a woman? I want to know what each of you voted, especially for some guys out there , so I'm making this a public poll! Don't be shy though, because of it being so. You'll have to admit one thing or the other one day...

Condolences on the Martyrdom of Amir ul Mo'mineen, Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib

Basim Ali Jafri

[Chiddler]

I would lean towards no.

For the same reason you might be disgusted by the phrase "sloppy seconds" (in reference to a woman, if you catch my drift).

[TheHealer]

We have to understand, Mu'tah is an exception rather than the  rule. It is permissible under Shariah, no doubt, but Marriage is recommended.....so far i have NEVER come across a single hadith, in which we are encouraged to perform Mutah. Infact we have been encouraged to marry .    

Did any of the Infallibles" or their immediate family acquire Mu'tah ? , i dont think so, as far as i am aware , in none of the biographies of the infallibles is it mentioned that they did.

We have to understand it in very clear terms, that mutah is an option and permissible but not a recommended act.
Its not kind of boy meets girl and they do mutah,  infact how many cases of mutah are there as examples ? , just look around you, its negligible.

We have been encouraged to marry virgins, according to hadiths. So i guess this talk of Mutah is rather blown out of proportion, in the real world its incidence as well as prevalance is neglegible...................

And yes, i voted for the last option....................

Wasallam

[macisaac]

fahim, on 11 September 2009 - 05:47 AM, said:

We have to understand, Mu'tah is an exception rather than the  rule. It is permissible under Shariah, no doubt, but Marriage is recommended.....so far i have NEVER come across a single hadith, in which we are encouraged to perform Mutah.

?

I don't want to sound rude, but what exactly have you read that you would draw such a conclusion from?  For recommendations on mut`a, there are in fact many narrations that speak on this.  See this collection of ahadith from Shaykh Mufid (ar) on the subject of mut`a:

http://www.tashayyu....---shaykh-mufid

[fyst]

fahim, on 11 September 2009 - 05:47 AM, said:

It is permissible under Shariah, no doubt, but Marriage is recommended.....

The recommendation for marriage applies to both nikah and mut`ah.

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so far i have NEVER come across a single hadith, in which we are encouraged to perform Mutah.

There is an entire chapter in Wasael ash-Shi'a about the recommendation (istihbab) of mut'ah. You might want to look into it. Here's the link: http://www.rafed.net...l-21/v01.html#2

[BintAlHoda]

bassem i think you should concentrate on your studies and not think about these things so much

[Ali Abdul-Hussain]

Why does the poll question say "thrice" specifically? And for what reasons did the woman do it?

Edited by Ali Abdul-Hussain, 11 September 2009 - 09:31 AM.

[TheHealer]

My appologies, was not aware of the said narrations.....thanks for letting me know.

Wasallam

[A true Sunni]

I do think this post is highly insulting and its phraseology is in dubious taste. Some of the answers also leave a lot to be desired.

[Dirac Delta function]

A true Sunni, on 11 September 2009 - 10:30 AM, said:

I do think this post is highly insulting and its phraseology is in dubious taste. Some of the answers also leave a lot to be desired.

More to the point, this topic has been done to death and has never served any purpose other than chit chat.

Best to close it now I think. I will delete my answer.

[TheHealer]

After reading the link provided by Macisaac ( could not read the one by fyst, cant read Arabic....) to be honest, my concept of Mu'tah has turned upside down.

As the narrations from(mostly) Abu Abdullah al Sadiq convey,  Mutah is highly recommended, so much so that in one narration it mentions 26 –And  from Abu Basir that he mentioned to as-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: Mut`a, is it from the four?  So he said: Marry from them a thousand.

and in another narration

And by this isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Musa b. `Ali b. Muhammad al-Hamdani from a man he named from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: There is not a man who does mut`a then does ghusl but that Allah crates from every drop (of water) that drops from him seventy angels who seek forgiveness for him until the day of qiyama, and who curse the avoider of it until the Hour rises.  And this is but a little of a lot in this meaning.

These two narrations make it amply clear, that 1) do as many mut'ah as possible(marry from them a thousand) correct me if i have wrongly intrepreted it....

2) The one who avoids it is cursed until the Hour rises.

Does the second narration mean, even a married man ? But we know the Prophet(SAAW) never married anyone else until Khadijah(SA) was alive, neither did Imam Ali(AS) marry anyone else till Fatima(SA) was alive..........By the same token cant we say our parents who are happly married, and the father never married (mutah or otherwise)again till the end of their lives , does that mean they are cursed and that too till the hour ? Or does the hadith convey something else, does it interpret in some other way..?

The first narration above says Marry from them a thousand, should we take it as a metaphor or take it literally ?
If we take it literally, then it APPARENTLY amounts to promiscusious behaviour. Then say The thousand break of after the specified time of Mutah and do Mutah with someone else and this cycle continues............from modern Medicine we know STD's (sexually transmitted diseases) HIV-AIDS spread from promiscusious sexual behaviour, so..................
I fully understand that Divine laws have devine wisdom behind them, but Islam has laws which apart from being divine have both rational and practical value, but in this case what is it?

For example, if  i discuss it,with my fellow Medical professionals( aama(Sunni) or otherwise) , they  will tear me into pieces on this, and thoroughly dissmiss it not only as unscientific but highly dangerous.

Uptill now, my concept of Mutah was that it is allowed, eg for a person who is not in a position to marry, or an unmarried student having the danger of falling into unlawfull means, solidiers in jihad when away from their wifes etc etc. In these cases it appears 100% logical, but from the above narrations , to be honest i am a bit shaken.........

I know there must be a logical explination as well, since the narrations are from The Infallibles,   but my feeble mind is not able to comprehend them, kindly explain............

Wasallam

[Ali Abdul-Hussain]

m8, i think "Marry from a thousand" means that a mut'a wife is NOT counted as one from the limit of four women a man can marry. As for the "avoider" bit, I think it means someone who has an urge (sexual), knows about mut'aa being halal, but doing haram things instead.

[Basim Ali]

BintAlHoda, on 11 September 2009 - 07:07 AM, said:

bassem i think you should concentrate on your studies and not think about these things so much

,
I will try...'O Admin of my mother's age'...
,
Basim Ali Jafri

Ali Abdul-Hussain, on 11 September 2009 - 09:24 AM, said:

Why does the poll question say "thrice" specifically? And for what reasons did the woman do it?

,
Nothing special behind, 'thrice'. It's just that doing a lady doing Mutah once or twice, might just be more accepted by the society who considers Mutah bad, than one who does it more often.
,
Basim Ali Jafri

[_JuGNii]

I am agenst Mutah overall forget a female doin it or male...

[macisaac]

fahim, on 11 September 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:

After reading the link provided by Macisaac ( could not read the one by fyst, cant read Arabic....) to be honest, my concept of Mu'tah has turned upside down.

As the narrations from(mostly) Abu Abdullah al Sadiq convey,  Mutah is highly recommended, so much so that in one narration it mentions 26 – And  from Abu Basir that he mentioned to as-Sadiq عليه السلام: Mut`a, is it from the four?  So he said: Marry from them a thousand.

Glad you read it. Going to our (authentic) sources directly is the only way to properly understand our religion, not relying on hearsay and second hand interpretations (often molded to suit what the speaker wants to believe, whether the religion actually says it or not).

As to the narrations.  The first you have mentioned seems to be in the context of whether a mut`a wife would count as one of the four wives a man is allowed to marry at once (i.e. in polygamy).  The response here would be no, she is not included in that, thus there is no limitation as such on how many you could legally marry (for example, say one already had four permanent wives, it would not thus mean that mut`a has become haram on him).  Saying a thousand perhaps is a way of emphasizing on this point.

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And by this isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Musa b. `Ali b. Muhammad al-Hamdani from a man he named from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام[/b][b].  He said: There is not a man who does mut`a then does ghusl but that Allah crates from every drop (of water) that drops from him seventy angels who seek forgiveness for him until the day of qiyama, and who curse the avoider of it until the Hour rises.  And this is but a little of a lot in this meaning.

I wonder if the meaning here would not be the one who simply has not done it, but the one who actively avoids doing it, say out of disdain and dislike towards it for instance.

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If we take it literally, then it APPARENTLY amounts to promiscusious behaviour.

We aren't Christians.  "kathratu 't-taruqa" (understood as an expression for having many wives and/or much sexual intercourse) is a good thing in our faith, a sunna to follow.

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Then say The thousand break of after the specified time of Mutah and do Mutah with someone else and this cycle continues............from modern Medicine we know STD's (sexually transmitted diseases) HIV-AIDS spread from promiscusious sexual behaviour, so..................

This would be more a danger in going with loose women, however read the hadiths 28-30 on that page.

Quote

For example, if  i discuss it,with my fellow Medical professionals( aama(Sunni) or otherwise) , they  will tear me into pieces on this, and thoroughly dissmiss it not only as unscientific but highly dangerous.

Like many Sunnis today, they would be ignorant of their own madhhab then and falling for the snares of modernism.  In Sunnism (and in Shi`ism) one could legitimately buy a slave woman, have sex with her, and then sell her later on to someone else, etc.  You could buy as many as you like, and then sell them to other people who in turn might have sex with them as well.  So there's no real argument against multiple sexual partners as such.  (the fiqh of this is another discussion in terms of the legal details and processes, but I'm bringing it up as a counter example)

Quote

Uptill now, my concept of Mutah was that it is allowed, eg for a person who is not in a position to marry, or an unmarried student having the danger of falling into unlawfull means, solidiers in jihad when away from their wifes etc etc. In these cases it appears 100% logical, but from the above narrations , to be honest i am a bit shaken.........

I know there must be a logical explination as well, since the narrations are from The Infallibles,   but my feeble mind is not able to comprehend them, kindly explain............

Wasallam

I don't blame you on holding that view, as it is what we are often taught, but obviously I disagree with it and find it in contradiction with our sources themselves.  I don't know when/where Muslims started getting this idea of being more prudish even than Victorians, but this mentality seems very foreign to that of what our religion teaches.  For instance, read the narrations here about the love of women:

http://www.tashayyu....e/love-of-women

A man has desires.  We were created that way, and having those desires is a good thing (e.g. for the survival of our species).  Our religion is not one that forces us to shut them up and tuck them away into some unnatural state, rather it gives us the means to fulfill those desires but in a wholesome, legal manner with clear laws to act within.  Unrestrained sexual intercourse is of course bad though on multiple levels (e.g. paternity and lineage, violating the rights of the guardian (whether the father of the virgin or the husband of the wife)). So, with mut`a, we have a legally controlled way to allow us to live with our nature, but not let it be so uncontrolled as to ruin us and thus society at large.  In addition to that, there are other scenarios where having a mut`a can be of great advantage, even if there isn't sexual intercourse within it.

wa 's-salaam

[Maryaam]

A true Sunni, on 11 September 2009 - 10:30 AM, said:

I do think this post is highly insulting and its phraseology is in dubious taste. Some of the answers also leave a lot to be desired.

Interesting that the only male to point this out is Sunni.

Mutah is highly desireable for males but for women - they become viewed as "sloppy seconds" - without a whisper of discontent about this highly insulting and disrespectful remark toward Shia women from the men of this forum.

[AlgerianShia]

depends if shes religious or not, if shes a good girl with good deen and is right for me then yah ofcourse, if shes some loose chick who used mutah as an excuse to cover up her mess then heeeeeeeeeeell no. and by religious i mean religious at the time of the mutah not some magical changed to the right side all of a sudden wen permanent marriage time comes along.

[A true Sunni]

I will not commnt on the permissability or impermissability of Muta that is another discussion. However i would ask all the  hormonal males on here or keep trying to convince Shia girls what a good idea it is to first push their sisters/daughters/mothers(widowed/divorced) into muta relationships.

By convincing their mothers sisters and daughters of the great merits of Muta they will increase the number of Shia girls on the Muta 'books'.

This will then of course make it more acceptable and overcome the stigma of 'sloppy seconds'. Because how can you view a woman as a sloppy second when your mother /sister or daughter could also be regarded as such.

problem solved. Physician heal thyself

Edited by A true Sunni, 11 September 2009 - 12:57 PM.

[A true Sunni]

AlgerianShia, on 11 September 2009 - 12:31 PM, said:

depends if shes religious or not, if shes a good girl with good deen and is right for me then yah ofcourse, if shes some loose chick who used mutah as an excuse to cover up her mess then heeeeeeeeeeell no. and by religious i mean religious at the time of the mutah not some magical changed to the right side all of a sudden wen permanent marriage time comes along.

agian very sexist what about the Deen of the guy involved. Should shia girls be questioning the 'male sloppy seconds' they get.

There are enough posts on here to indicate that a lot of very haram acts are involved prior to reading the magic muta formula. The muta formula bein read as a prelude to sex nothing else. When an Christian girl is involved they dont even know what they are saying or committing to

[Ali Abdul-Hussain]

Basim Ali, on 11 September 2009 - 12:01 PM, said:

,
Nothing special behind, 'thrice'. It's just that doing a lady doing Mutah once or twice, might just be more accepted by the society who considers Mutah bad, than one who does it more often.
,
Basim Ali Jafri

Ok then, but you didn't answer the second part of my question, but don't worry m8, you don't have to. If the woman had done all three muta'as to protect herself from sin, then it's fine by me, but it's very rare a woman would do 3 muta's when she can just stay in one muta'a, or get permanently married. Just as long as she isn't a husband-shopper, because this would imply she doesn't know what to look for in a husband, and I have no intentions of marrying an idiot who would quickly move on because she can't "decide".

[wayfarer.]

^ well said m8.

[fyst]

fahim, on 11 September 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:

These two narrations make it amply clear, that 1) do as many mut'ah as possible(marry from them a thousand) correct me if i have wrongly intrepreted it....

2) The one who avoids it is cursed until the Hour rises.

First of all, not all the narrations in that section are authentic. For example, the narration about mut'ah being allowed as a compensation for the prohibition of alcohol (narration #8) has Musa b. Sa`daan in its chain, who is a ghaliy and a weak narrator, so that narration cannot be relied upon, unless there are other narrations that mention the same thing.

Second, even though there is no prohibition on doing as many mut'ahs as possible, the hadith about "marry from them a thousand" does not specifically imply that the more mut'ahs the better. Its purpose is to elaborate how the mut'ah wife is not included from among the four permanent wives, so that you can marry even up to a thousand in mut'ah without transgressing the bounds of Allah. But, needless to say, actually marrying a thousand women in mut'ah would be extremely unreasonable.

Third, many of those narrations have to be taken in context. Because Umar had banned mut'ah, the narrations that describe the rewards for engaging in it also include the reward for reviving the sunnah, and not just the reward for engaging in mut'ah, per se. See this for some additional information (in English, this time).

[AlgerianShia]

A true Sunni, on 11 September 2009 - 01:11 PM, said:

agian very sexist what about the Deen of the guy involved. Should shia girls be questioning the 'male sloppy seconds' they get.

There are enough posts on here to indicate that a lot of very haram acts are involved prior to reading the magic muta formula. The muta formula bein read as a prelude to sex nothing else. When an Christian girl is involved they dont even know what they are saying or committing to

wats sexist about this? n y do i care bout the guy im marrying the woman, if she thinks im useless or a bad apple then she can refuse me. im not sayin im an angel in the sky, im just saying i dont someone who uses mutah as a cover for some crap she did, as im sure most women wouldnt accept a guy who is in the same situation.

[macisaac]

fyst, on 11 September 2009 - 02:42 PM, said:

First of all, not all the narrations in that section are authentic. For example, the narration about mut'ah being allowed as a compensation for the prohibition of alcohol (narration #8) has Musa b. Sa`daan in its chain, who is a ghaliy and a weak narrator, so that narration cannot be relied upon, unless there are other narrations that mention the same thing.

Correct that it is a complete translation of the risalat without regard to the isnads. However, as to the narration you are referring to, it's also in Saduq's faqih as such:

4616 - æÑæì ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÓäÇä Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá: " Åä Çááå ÊÈÇÑß æÊÚÇáì ÍÑã Úáì ÔíÚÊäÇ ÇáãÓßÑ ãä ßá ÔÑÇÈ æÚæÖåã ãä Ðáß ÇáãÊÚÉ ".

And the tariqa that's listed for Saduq to `Abdullah b. Sinan is different than the one listed in Mufid's risala:

[ 185 ] æãÇ ßÇä Ýíå Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÓäÇä :
ÝÞÏ ÑæíÊå Úä ÃÈí ¡ ÑÖí Çááå Úäå ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÌÚÝÑ ÇáÍãíÑí ¡ Úä ÃíæÈ Èä äæÍ ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÓäÇä .

This isnad though is sahih according to `Allama Hilli.

[Logic]

Basim Ali, on 10 September 2009 - 08:38 PM, said:

,
Would you marry such a woman? I want to know what each of you voted, especially for some guys out there , so I'm making this a public poll! Don't be shy though, because of it being so. You'll have to admit one thing or the other one day...

Condolences on the Martyrdom of Amir ul Mo'mineen, Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib

Basim Ali Jafri

Are you really facing this choice or is this poll out of sheer curiousity?