384 replies to this topic

[Yabnul_Taha]

Mujtaba_Iraqi, on 13 April 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

The Standing position is required when performing prayers:

“And when you are among them and lead them in prayer, let a group of them stand [in prayer] with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be [in position] behind you and have the other group come forward which has not [yet] prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one [single] attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment." (4:102)

After reading this verse, it is clear to conclude that the standing position must be maintained when performing prayers. That being said, the Ismaili-Nizari method of prayer, where one is sitting contradicts the method that Allah(swt) clearly outlined for us and therefore not only considered to be a non-Islamic form of prayer but rather an innovation(bidaa) to the original and correct form that was established by the prophet.

Actually, the 2 rakat nawafil namaaz after Isha is performed while sitting.  Is this a bida`a too, in your eyes?

[-Enlightened]

Osama_bin_Swaggin, on 14 April 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Actually, the 2 rakat nawafil namaaz after Isha is performed while sitting.  Is this a bida`a too, in your eyes?

But the nawafil after Isha is MustaHab.   And MustaHab prayers can be done even when someone is walking,laying down or sitting  (sistani)

And 5 daily wajib prayers can only be performed when one is standing .

Edited by -Enlightened, 14 April 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[lalamoosa]

I dont know any agha khani name in the government of Islamabad, punjab, sindh, balochistan, NWFP (khaybar Pakhtunkhwa ie the adjacent KhOrasan). What I care about is who is corrupt and prays with sincerity, and not whether they pray sitting, standing, sleeping. I am sure there are some people who are physically disabled and in environment of persecution like muslims in the non-muslim countries where they have to hide their faith. Anyway, I dont have time to study these peripheral sects or cults or whatever you wanna call them. I care more about our own shia (ithnashari) and also the substantial majority, ahle-sunna since pakistan has a large majority of them and their downfall affects ALL of us. Our destiny is interlinked with theirs. I am sure, all minorities naturally think like this and would want to help improve the morals and CAPACITY of our Ahle-Sunna brothers.

lalamoosa, on 14 April 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

For the millionth time, he was an ITHNASHARI. Probably a UNIQUE , because we dont see such characters today in the shia community. We see ZARDARI (swiss bank accounts), and MQM. It is possible that this is the kind of confusion that led MQM into fascism to raise one leader, "QAID E Tehireek" but devoid of spirituality, one leader thing becomes FASCISM as they cant inspire people to donate Zakat or KhOms to them and then they come to the worst TORTURE cells and tactics to extract BHATTA (black mail and money extortion, including taking away ID cards so they are forced to come to the telephone Speeches of a Schizophrenic from London). Both are murderers. On recent murder of Kamran Shahid and the other murder of Dr Salman Farooq.

You cant have people in ruling seat of SUCH LOW character. and you cant justify their being in the seat by the fact that Jinnah was a Shia Ithnashari.

Has anyone seen videos of Yusuf Raza Abdi insulting the Chief Justice? and have you all forgotten how they hired that Zardari friend Malik Riaz to entrap his CJ's son and take him to Europe for عیاشی so that they can blackmail the father who was not blackmailable and THREW out his son out of the HOUSE!!!

The point is very simple. We would reap greater harvest in self-accountability than bothering about these miniscule sects like zaidi,ismaili,bohra etc and fix our own people. Man, there is none of these in the government. Only a MEMON is in Karachi and Memons are in the GOVERNMENT in BOTH parties, Marvi MEMON is with Nawaz Sharif and very outspoken !!!!!!!!!!!

lalamoosa, on 13 April 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

^ Dear Mujtaba, their population is miniscule. Our own Ithnashari shia in Pakistan, (I think you dont know the situation in Pakistan) are so secular and the women are going around with naked head, esp the TV anchors and politicians.

I would name for example, Shahla Raza from the party of Zardari, PPP or pakistan people's party. Do you want me to give you a link to a video in which they are lying and also Fehmida Mirza, the wife of Dhulfiqar Mirza. She refused to send a reference to the Swiss courts so the money stolen by Zardari from the people, I think 60 million or 6 crore dollars could be brought back, but she did not do it, even though she was a parliamentarian and specifically, the speaker of the parliament representing the PEOPLE.

In Pakistan, it is said

Scratch a Shia (Ithnashari) and find a secularist.

as far as these agha khani or bohras are concerned, they are miniscule and of ZILCH consequence in the history and dynamics of pakistan. Good, they built that one tiny and probably a first medical univeristy in karachi which does not bother me.

What bothers me is the big majority and the second largest minority and their corruption and morals or health or sickness or whatever you call it.

As far as the terrorism of MQM and Bhatta (extraction or blackmail of protection money) is concerned, that is a chapter in itself. These aghakhanis are not the bhatta extractors and I dont care if they pray sitting, standing or sleeping. I care who is stealing what from WHOM. And that is why I support Imran Khan, who was once a playboy, but he is an HONEST, GOD FEARING and Hard working and DELIVERING person now and a good administrator.

Right now, we dont have the time or SCOPE for this kind of discussion in Pakistan. This reminds me of the situation of Baghdad when the MONGOLS were about to KILL and MASSACRE the whole town and the scholars were discussing some fine philosophical point in epistemology.

[Yabnul_Taha]

-Enlightened, on 14 April 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

But the nawafil after Isha is MustaHab.   And MustaHab prayers can be done even when someone is walking,laying down or sitting  (sistani)

And 5 daily wajib prayers can only be performed when one is standing .

wa `alaykum as-salaam wa rehmat Allah,

Could you please provide a link to that source from Ayatullah Sistani ?  I just skimmed through his risala on the parts of mustahab prayers, and couldn't find it.

Also, what if someone is unable to stand or do other obligatory forms of the prayer?  For example, there is an elderly lady at my masjid that can neither stand nor get on the floor.  She prays while sitting in a chair with a small table in front of her to hold her turbah.  Is her prayer invalid since she is neither standing nor is she on the floor at any point during the namaaz?

[-Enlightened]

Osama_bin_Swaggin, on 14 April 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

wa `alaykum as-salaam wa rehmat Allah,

Could you please provide a link to that source from Ayatullah Sistani ?  I just skimmed through his risala on the parts of mustahab prayers, and couldn't find it.

Also, what if someone is unable to stand or do other obligatory forms of the prayer?  For example, there is an elderly lady at my masjid that can neither stand nor get on the floor.  She prays while sitting in a chair with a small table in front of her to hold her turbah.  Is her prayer invalid since she is neither standing nor is she on the floor at any point during the namaaz?

1- http://www.duas.org/mustnafioth.htm
''Recommended prayers can be offered standing, sitting, lying down or walking. In these same positions the ruku and sajdah can be performed by gesturing with''  (Sistani)

2- If there is a medical reason such as the old lady, there is no problem in sitting in a chair. Otherwise , it is wajib to pray standing just like Mujtaba mentioned in his post

Edited by -Enlightened, 14 April 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Yabnul_Taha]

-Enlightened, on 14 April 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

-Enlightened, on 14 April 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

1- http://www.duas.org/mustnafioth.htm
''Recommended prayers can be offered standing, sitting, lying down or walking. In these same positions the ruku and sajdah can be performed by gesturing with''  (Sistani)

That page does not even have the word "Sistani" on it.  The part in quotes is on there twice, but Sistani's name is never mentioned.

-Enlightened, on 14 April 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

2- If there is a medical reason such as the old lady, there is no problem in sitting in a chair. Otherwise , it is wajib to pray standing just like Mujtaba mentioned in his post

I will have to research this more.  Do you have any rulings from the eminent scholars or sayings of the Prophet or the Imams that confirm this?  You have made two assertions with this post:

1) Praying while sitting is valid with a medical reason
2) It is not valid without a medical reason

I will in sha Allah try to verify those statements, but if you have any sources as well, that would be great.

JazakaAllahu khair for your response.

[PurifiedTruth]

Osama_bin_Swaggin, on 14 April 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Actually, the 2 rakat nawafil namaaz after Isha is performed while sitting.  Is this a bida`a too, in your eyes?

The Aya I mentioned was stating the rules for the 5 obligatory prayers specifically and not and the Nawfil or other Mustahab prayers. To answer your question in regards to the Nawfil prayers, it would not be considered bidaa to maintain a sitting position while performing it because Nawfil prayers and other Mustahab prayers are considered as part of the Sunnah of the prophet(pbuh) and the Imams(as) as their rules  are stated in our books of Hadith by them.

What I was specifically pointing out in my previous posts is that the standing position is a requirement for the obligatory prayers in order to be considered valid and I used those Ayas as references. Moreover, the Ismaili-Agha Khani method of prayer performed today does not reflect on these rules stated in these verses  and as I stated earlier, the rules of obligatory prayers cannot be changed since they have been established and finished by the prophet under the command of Allah(swt).With that being said, it is considered Bidaa when the Nizari Agha Khan alters the Sharia by changing the rules of the prayers based on his desires and judgment because he would be going against the rules that Allah(swt) already established in the Quran that were taught by the prophet(pbuh) during his lifetime

[BaqiyatullahY]

Osama_bin_Swaggin, on 14 April 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

That page does not even have the word "Sistani" on it.  The part in quotes is on there twice, but Sistani's name is never mentioned.

789. A Mustahab namaz can be offered while one is walking, or riding, and if a person offers Mustahab prayers in these two conditions, it is not necessary that he should be facing the Qibla.
http://www.sistani.o...&id=48&pid=2209

Osama_bin_Swaggin, on 14 April 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

1) Praying while sitting is valid with a medical reason
2) It is not valid without a medical reason

Check this link: http://www.sistani.o...&id=48&pid=2220

Edited by cendrillon, 15 April 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[toledo]

That's one reason you and I can not agree. Because, the God I believe in, is knowing and everywhere. No matter, if I do my niyah, standing or sitting, does not matter, unlike the God you believe in.

[PurifiedTruth]

toledo, on 20 April 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

That's one reason you and I can not agree. Because, the God I believe in, is knowing and everywhere. No matter, if I do my niyah, standing or sitting, does not matter, unlike the God you believe in.

The difference that is between us isn't due to the matter of our different personal opinions or our own ways of understanding the religion. It's a matter of you rejecting the clear words of god, such as, not following the rules of prayers he sent down for us from the heavens to follow strictly and accordingly. Read the verses again that I posted in which you did not even bother to comment on earlier. The meaning of the ayas are very clear, that is, the only intermediary that the Muslims can use with Allah(swt) for prayers is the holy Kaaba and nothing else. No where does Allah(swt) say that the holy kabaa can be interchanged with the Imam so no doubt your method of prayer is considered Bidaa and contradicting to the true Sunnah of the noble prophet(pbuh). Moreover, these same Ayas also say that the standing position is mandatory to be maintained when offering the obligatory prayers. and therefore, maintaining the sitting position when offering these prayers is also considered Bidaa.

Surely the god I believe in, unlike yours has informed his messenger to warn the people who follow him after his departure not to innovate in the religion he brings to them so that they do not deviate but rather remain on the Sirat Al-Mustaqeem(straight path). In the case of the Ismaili-Agha Khani religion, they have gone far astray from the Sirat Al-Mistaqeem to be even considered Muslims predominantly.

That being  said Your Niyaa will not count if you continue to hold on to your Ismaili beliefs and at the same time, reject the words of God by not reflecting on these verses due to ignorance. Once you know the Haq, in which I have showed you in matters of Salat using these verses below , and yet reject it due to arrogance or pride then no doubt you will die a death similar to the death of the jahilya(ignorance), as Allah(swt) clearly stated in Surat Al-Baqarah:


إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ ﴿٦﴾ خَتَمَ اللَّـهُ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَىٰ سَمْعِهِمْ ۖ وَعَلَىٰ أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ ۖ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ

"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment."


Finally, one last thing to say, that there is no compulsion in religion. You can choose what ever you want that you feel convinces you. Allah(swt) at the end is mercifully upon the Mustadh'afeen that were not able to see the haq in the dunya. However his mercy does not go against his justice, and therefore, who ever dies and rejects the Haq due to their ignorance after it was shown to them during their life will surely be punished by him in Jahanam.

Mujtaba_Iraqi, on 13 April 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Moreover, I will show you now , using verses from the Noble Quran, how your method of prayer that is performed to day by the Nizari Laymen contradicts the method that Allah(swt) outlined for us in the Quran and taught by the prophet(pbuh).

Facing the Qibla is obligatory when performing prayers:

"so from whencesoever thou startest forth, turn thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, turn your face thither: That there be no ground of dispute against you among the people. Except those of them that a bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete my favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided" (2:150)

The meaning of the verse is very clear. In other words, Allah(swt) clearly stated that the only link between him and the earth where he accepts the prayers(salat) of the believers is through the holy kaba. Nothing else can be used as a link to Allah in order to offer prayers to, not the Imam or anything else.

The Standing position is required when performing prayers:

“And when you are among them and lead them in prayer, let a group of them stand [in prayer] with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be [in position] behind you and have the other group come forward which has not [yet] prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one [single] attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment." (4:102)

After reading this verse, it is clear to conclude that the standing position must be maintained when performing prayers. That being said, the Ismaili-Nizari method of prayer, where one is sitting contradicts the method that Allah(swt) clearly outlined for us and therefore not only considered to be a non-Islamic form of prayer but rather an innovation(bidaa) to the original and correct form that was established by the prophet.

May Allah(swt) guide you to follow the Haq

Edited by Mujtaba_Iraqi, 22 April 2013 - 12:38 AM.