384 replies to this topic

[Gypsy]

JimJam, on 24 October 2010 - 09:27 AM, said:

The Ismalis I've had most interaction with are the Bohris.They are like living fossils of the Fatimid age. They do adhere to zahir practices of faith. Nazarism appears to have turned into a movement similar to Qarmatism, where the batin obliterates the zahir instead of being in balance with it.

Qaramite were batinis. Was the term batini used exclusively for them only? Was any other groups/sects ever refereed to as batini?

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There is a general tendency in the Sunnite and Shiite sources, when referring to the Ismailis, often erroneously call them Qarmatians without perception of the distinction between them. The Qarmatians have been discredited invariably as the extremist and opportunistically nihilist,[clarification needed] and their extreme activities have been wrongly conflated with the Ismailis.

Anyone know why Qaramite falls under the Ismaili umbrella? I always felt they did not care much about religion. The religion was just a disguised to legitimize their evil activities.

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The Qarmaṭians instigated what one scholar termed a "century of terrorism" in Kufa.[3] They considered the pilgrimage to Mecca a superstition and once in control of the Bahraini state they launched raids along the pilgrim routes crossing Arabia: in 906 they ambushed the pilgrim caravan returning from Mecca and massacred 20,000 pilgrims.[4] Under Abu Tahir Al-Jannabi they came close to raiding Baghdad in 927 and sacked Mecca and Medina in 930. The assault on Islam's holiest sites saw the Qarmatians desecrate the Well of Zamzam with corpses of Hajj pilgrims and take the Black Stone from Mecca to Al-Hasa.[5] Holding the Black Stone to ransom they forced the Abbasids to pay a huge sum for its return in 952.[6].
The revolution and desecration shocked the Muslim world and humiliated the Abbasids. But there was little that could be done; for much of the tenth century the Qarmatians were the most powerful force in the Persian Gulf and Middle East, controlling the coast of Oman and collected tribute from the caliph in Baghdad as well as from a rival Ismaili imam in Cairo, whom they did not recognize.

ref: wiki under Qaramite

[Educating_Saniya]

Zareen, on 01 November 2010 - 10:33 AM, said:

Qaramite were batinis. Was the term batini used exclusively for them only? Was any other groups/sects ever refereed to as batini?



Anyone know why Qaramite falls under the Ismaili umbrella? I always felt they did not care much about religion. The religion was just a disguised to legitimize their evil activities.

The term "Batini" applied to any group that sought batin (the esoteric), occationally even Ithna' Ashariyya.

The Qatamites, were originally Sabiya (seveners), they believed Imam Isma'il  was the last Imam, and thus taken into occultation (Ghaybat). It is for this reason that they are considered Isma'ili. They formed a loose military alliance with the Fatimids until they raided Mecca and ransomed the Black Stone. After which The Fatimids rebuked them and broke the alliance, they then embraced a neo-Zoroastrianism, and fell into civil war.

[macisaac]

Educating_Saniya, on 23 November 2010 - 04:16 AM, said:

The term "Batini" applied to any group that sought batin (the esoteric), occationally even Ithna' Ashariyya.

The Qatamites, were originally Sabiya (seveners), they believed Imam Isma'il  was the last Imam, and thus taken into occultation (Ghaybat). It is for this reason that they are considered Isma'ili. They formed a loose military alliance with the Fatimids until they raided Mecca and ransomed the Black Stone. After which The Fatimids rebuked them and broke the alliance, they then embraced a neo-Zoroastrianism, and fell into civil war.

No, the Qaramita thought Muhammad b. Isma`il was the Qa'im who was in ghayba, which is what the main Isma`ili da`wa was claiming prior to it being split when the da`i Sa`id b. al-Husayn (founder of the Fatimids) claimed himself to be the Imam and the Isma`ilis (as they'd do a number of times in their history) had to rewrite their claims and try to erase their past (i.e. by saying all that stuff about Muhammad b. Isma`il was really just a code ruse).

[Ismailite]

macisaac, on 24 November 2010 - 10:56 PM, said:

No, the Qaramita thought Muhammad b. Isma`il was the Qa'im who was in ghayba, which is what the main Isma`ili da`wa was claiming prior to it being split when the da`i Sa`id b. al-Husayn (founder of the Fatimids) claimed himself to be the Imam and the Isma`ilis (as they'd do a number of times in their history) had to rewrite their claims and try to erase their past (i.e. by saying all that stuff about Muhammad b. Isma`il was really just a code ruse).

This is not very accurate at all, as there are pre-Fatimid texts - namely the Kitab al-Kashf which actually names Imams between Muhammad ibn Isma'il and Ubaydallah al-Mahdi.

It was not unusual for the Isma'ili da'wah to resort to taqiyya - by naming each Imam as "Muhamamd ibn Isma'il" in order to veil and protect the Imam's true identity in the face of Abbassid persecution.

Furthermore, the Rasa'il of the Ikhwan al-Safa also serve as evidence of this - as one of the Rasa'il actually is an address by one of the Isma'ili Imams to his own Shi'a , critiquing the belief in a ghayb Imam.

[macisaac]

Ismailite, on 28 November 2010 - 09:22 PM, said:

This is not very accurate at all, as there are pre-Fatimid texts - namely the Kitab al-Kashf which actually names Imams between Muhammad ibn Isma'il and Ubaydallah al-Mahdi.

By Ja`far b. Mansur?  If so, try again, he was during the Fatimid period under al-Mu`izz.

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It was not unusual for the Isma'ili da'wah to resort to taqiyya - by naming each Imam as "Muhamamd ibn Isma'il" in order to veil and protect the Imam's true identity in the face of Abbassid persecution.

Or it's simply that the story got changed to fit in with new claims, as happened a number of time in Isma`ili history.

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Furthermore, the Rasa'il of the Ikhwan al-Safa also serve as evidence of this - as one of the Rasa'il actually is an address by one of the Isma'ili Imams to his own Shi'a , critiquing the belief in a ghayb Imam.

Which?  The authorship, dates and even sectarian affiliation of the Rasa'il are not at all certain.

[Ismailite]

macisaac, on 28 November 2010 - 09:47 PM, said:

By Ja`far b. Mansur?  If so, try again, he was during the Fatimid period under al-Mu`izz.



Or it's simply that the story got changed to fit in with new claims, as happened a number of time in Isma`ili history.



Which?  The authorship, dates and even sectarian affiliation of the Rasa'il are not at all certain.

Although the Kitab al-Kashf was later attributed to Jafar bin Mansur, he was not the acual author.  The text itself is pre-Fatimid - and the late Shaykh Abd al-Hakeem Carney actually transated the entire text and in his introduction shows how it names the one concealed Isma'ili Imam who lived during its composition.

As for the Rasa'il, there is an article in "Medieveal Ismaili History and Thought" (ed. Daftary) which shows quite strongly how it was authorized by the pre-Fatimid Isma'ili da'wah and how one of the Epistles is written by an Isma'ili Imam himself.

What do you mean "happened a number of times in Isma'ili history"?  

The Isma'ili notion of a continuous Imamat has been relatively constant as a doctrine through its history.  The actual ideas used to articulate Imamah in its specifics have varied with the times, but the essential doctrine has always the same.

[Simplicity]

Salam arz hy sab ko,

i have few simple questions for Ismailies, i love an ismaili girl and hoping we may be together soon and Allah guide both of us the Right path (Ameen).

well come to the point,

what is Holy Water(Niyaz)? Holy Water jaha tak mai janta wo Saudia se nikalta hy aur usky pechy pori ek history hy.
why Ismaili Pay Zakaat(Dashond) to their Imam? jahan tak mene parha Zakaat ka concept isliye aya taky jo Sahib Hesiat log ho wo ghareeb logo ki madad kar saken aur Allah ki rah mai pese nikalen, na k kisi Imam k funds mai jama karwaen.
3rd Islam aese Religion ka name hy jo pori Kainat k liye hy but what you Agha Khani doing?ap log se ager ap k religion pe baat kari jaye ya kaha jaye k aap k Jamat Khany mai lejain tu mana kardya jata k outsiders not allowed, well if you are Muslims then how can you not allowing other Muslims?aesa kia karty JK mai jo outsiders allowed nahi?
4th u sing Ginans and do Veti(voti), well kia aap ko khud bhi pata k aap log Ginans mai parhty kia hein?meaning pata hein?secondly jis jagah Ibadat ki jate wahi pe songs bhi?ye Islam nahi hy.
5th most important, hamare pass Quran se behter book aur Hazrat Muhammad( Peace Be Upon Him) se achi misal koi nahi then jo Hamare Nabi(S.A.W) ne hamay bataya apni life mai karkay btaya kia wo kafi nahi hy follow karny k liye aur sath mai Quran bhi hy, then y u follow ur Agha Khan that much?is he most important or most knowledgeable then our last Prophet(S.A.W)?

mai in details mai nahi jaoga k Imamat Khatam howe k nahi howe ye wo... mai bs simple Islam ki baat kar raha ho, 5 times Prayer ka Hukum howa ab iskyt against aap jo bhi examples ly aaen lekin kindly tell me kia Namaz parhna Gunah hy?ye Sawab hi hy tu 3 time k bajaye 5 times karliya jaye tu zyda Sawab nahi mily ga?aur Azaan ka bhi Hukum hy aur Hazrat Bilal ki examples bhi mojoob hein Allah ki Ibadat k liye bulaya jata hy Azaan mai then y u ppl not have any Azaan?y u ppl not have Friday Prayers?
most importantly Ismailis Dua parhty well kia aap logo ne khud Dua mai jo parha jata usky meaning pata?Ibadat Allah ki kari jate na k kisi Imam ki.

aur kia aap Ismaili Darood Sharif bhi parhty?

mere yehe dua hy k Allah Hum sab ko (Ismaili, Shia, Sunni, etc) sahi Rasty pe Chalny ki Taufeeq aur Sahi Rasta Dikhaye (Ameen).

mere bht simple matters pe sawal hein tu hope k i will get simple answers.

Thanks.

[Ruwayd]

Here is the old Nizari Ismaili thrice daily main prayer, the "Dua" or "Doowa", that was in place sometime between the reign of Aga Khan I to around 1950-1955. It comes from the 1908 Haji Bibi Case, in which the Aga Khan was the main defendant. This was a court case about whether the Aga Khan has complete authority and power over the tithes given to him, or whether he had to share them with his family.

This prayer clearly says the Aga Khan is the incarnation of Allah (I have highlighted in blue the relevant passage). This is part of the reason why many older Nizari Ismailis believe that Aga Khan is Allah (they were taught this), and they have even passed on this idea to their children to the extent that it is possible to do so. Many younger Nizari Ismailis struggle to believe that Aga Khan could possibly be Allah, though. The below Dua was replaced in I think 1956, with the current Dua (which the former Nizari Ismaili, Akbarally Meherally, has posted here and here). The current Dua doesn't say that Aga Khan is Allah, although it does have some elements of clear shirk.

Some people say that the Aga Khan changed the beliefs around 1950 from the Aga Khan being Allah to the Aga Khan having the Noor of Allah inside of him, and they say the Aga Khan did this because he was afraid many of the next generation of Nizari Ismailis would reject the idea of the Aga Khan possibly being Allah. Also, because he was afraid that Pakistan might ban Nizari Ismailism like Qadianism. So, now Nizari Ismailis say that Aga Khan holds the Noor of Allah inside of him, whereas before they used to say he is the same as Allah. But, many Nizari Ismailis still believe the Aga Khan is Allah even though he only says now that he has the Noor of Allah and is not the same as Allah. Pretty much anything you find on Nizari Ismailis between about 1800 and 1950 says that their Imam is the same to them as Allah. They even used to worship his picture back in those days (1800 to 1950), according to a conversation I had with an older Nizari Ismaili who confirmed that they were worshipping Aga Khan's picture back in East Africa in the jamatkhana she was at. The practice eventually stopped around 1950. It was around 1950, which was around the time Pakistan was formed and where many Nizari Ismailis were living, that the beliefs started to change into more like what they are today (Aga Khan = Noor of Allah; lots of shirk still, but, much less than before). Around 1956 the old Dua changed into the new one (current one).

If you think about it, what is the difference between Noor of Allah and Allah. Many Nizari Ismailis say this also. You cannot take Allah and separate him. An entity is either Allah or it isn't. You can't say a human being is the son of God. Nor can you say he has the Noor of God inside of him - without also basically saying that, yeah, he really is Allah. All messed up.



Source: High Court of Bombay (Official) - http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1531123/


THE DOOWA.
27. Say your prayers--Say your prayers-Say your prayers. May God bless you! Take the name of God. May the Lord Ali grant you faith and modesty. 0 Shah, accept my evening prayer and supplication by virtue of the privilege Thou possesseth, O our Master Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah.
28. (Then) you are to prostrate. If it is the night prayer, say "My evening and night supplications" and if it is the morning prayer, say "My evening, night and morning supplications."
29. Then repeat the rosary and prostrate.
30. Then repeat the following:
I repent for my sins. I repent for my sins. I am a sinful servant (of Thine), sinful from top to toe. O Shah, the Forgiver, forgive me. The Pirs pray (Thy) servant supplicates. Thou, 0 True Shah, accepteth the same. (I obey) the Firman (i.e., mandate) of the Shah as communicated by the Pir.
31. Having said the above keep the rosary on the ground and repeat the following:
True declaration--God is Holy. Thanks to God. Praise to God. There is no God but God. God is Great. There is no might or power except that of God, the High the Great, the Merciful, the Magnanimous, the Good, the Great Holy Providence (Who is) in the district of Chaldea, in Persia, in human form descended from the seventy-seven Patras (ancestors), and Who is the forty-eighth. Imam (Spiritual Chief) the tenth Naklanki Avtar, our Master, Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah, the Giver.
(Then) you are to prostrate. Then say "Hak Shah" (i.e., O Shah, Thou art true) and repeat (the names of) the ancestors of Vishnu and of the successors of the Shah.
(Names of) Vishnu's ancestors:
* * * * * *
The successors of the Shah say (the defendants of) Abu Taleb Vali (are):
1. Our true Lord Shah Ali.
2. Our true Lord Shah Husein.
3. Our true Lord Shah Zenal Abadeen.
4. Our true Lord Shah Mahomed Bakar.
5. Our true Lord Shah Jaffer Sadak.
6. Our true Lord Shah Ismail.
7. Our true Lord Shah Mahomed bin Shah Ismail.
8. Our true Lord Shah Vafi Ahmed.
9. Our true Lord Shall Taki Mahomed.
10. Our true Lord Shah Razi Abdulla.
11. Our true Lord Shah Mehdi Mahomed.
12. Our true Lord Shah Kayem.
13. Our true Lord Shah Mansur.
14. Our true Lord Shah Moezz.
15. Our true Lord Shah Aziz.
16. Oar true Lord Shah Hakem Abu Ali.
17. Our true Lord Shah Lahir Ali.
18. Our true Lord Shah Mustansirbillah.
19. Our true Lord Shah Nizar.
20. Our true Lord Shah Hadi.
21. Our true Lord Shah Mohtadi.
22. Our true Lord Shah Kaher.
23. Our true Lord Shah Ali Zakaria Salam.
24. Our true Lord Shah Ala Mahomed.
25. Our true Lord Shah Khud Jalal-ud-din Hassan.
26. Our true Lord Shah Alaudin Mahomed.
27. Our true Lord Shah Ruknudin Khoor Shah.
28. Our true Lord Shah Shamsudin Mahomed.
29. Our true Lord Shah Kassam.
30. Our, true Lord Shah Islam Shah.
31. Our true Lord Shah Mahomed bin Islam Shah.
32. Our true Lord Shah Mustansirbillah.
33. Our true Lord Shah Abd Salam.
34. Our true Lord Shah Garib Mirza.
35. Our true Lord Shah Budr Ali.
36. Our true Lord Shah Murad Mirza.
37. Our true Lord Shah Zulficar Ali.
38. Our true Lord Shah Nurudin Ali.
39. Our true Lord Shah Sayyad Khalilullah Ali.
40. Our true Lord Shah Nizar.
41. Our true Lord Shah Sayyad Ali.
42. Our true Lord Shah Sa Hassan Ali.
43. Our true Lord Shah Kassam Ali.
44. Our true Lord Shah Abdul Hassan Ali.
45. Our true Lord Shah Khalilullah Ali.
46. Our true Lord Shah Hassan Ali.
47. Our true Lord Shah Aga Ali Shah.
48. Our true Lord Shah Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah the Giver.
32. Recognize him, the present owner of the Imamate, the Master of the Age, the Imam, the guide of the Guides, the(Imam) in Power, Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah, the Giver, the Reliever of innumerable and crores of persons, the present owner of the Imamate. O Shah accept my supplications in Thy presence by virtue of the privilege Thou possesseth, O our Master Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah.
* * * * * * *
33. This Doowa is practically the same as the one in Aga Khan I's time and Aga Khan II's time, except the necessary addition of the Aga Khan for the time being.






If you're having trouble believing me, here's more proof - multiple threads where many Nizari Ismailis talk about their belief that the Aga Khan really is Allah and that the old Ismaili Doowa had a phrase that ran "Ali Sahi Allah" meaning "Ali is truly Allah":

Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

Edited by thinking100, 28 April 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[Ruwayd]

Yes, the world doesn't realize it because they're so secretive about their practices, but, these guys are definitely worse than Qadianis due to the amount of shirk involved in their acts of worship.

It's amazing that Qadianism has been banned in Pakistan, but, Nizari Ismailism still has not been. It may be due to the fact that the Nizari Ismaili cult has a lot of business clout and because the Aga Khan owns the top university and hospital in Pakistan, among other projects. He has purposely tried to ensure that Nizari Ismailism never gets banned.

Aga Khan is trying to turn the "Aga Khan" name into a brand like Coca Cola. He's trying to plaster it everywhere he can. For example, he's building an Islamic museum in Toronto, which will be the western world's largest, and calling it the Aga Khan Museum. Through projects like these, he's making himself and the Nizari Ismaili community look like regular Muslims. Many non-Muslims are big fans of the Aga Khan and the Nizari Ismailis due to the fact that the Nizari Ismailis do a lot of charity and don't follow the Shariah.  

Here is the Nizari Ismaili "constitution" that the Aga Khan requires all community members to abide by (this document as well as official Nizari Ismaili websites make these guys look like ordinary Shias, but, I assure you they're keeping many shirk-filled beliefs and practices secret from you, and that is why no one other than Nizari Ismailis are allowed to go to their jamatkhanas and see the acts of worship they are doing): http://www.ismailiun...onstitution.pdf

Guard your deen, folks! Many Nizari Ismailis are quite influential and wealthy in many of the countries they live in, as well as highly educated, especially western countries. They know nothing about true Islam but have lots of secular knowledge, in most cases. Beware of them and the secret acts of worship that goes on in their jamatkhanas in the early morning (starting from 3-4 AM, for about one hour) as well as in the evening (starting at 7pm typically and usually last 30-90 minutes), which they will never tell you or anyone else about but that are full of shirk. Any Nizari Ismaili who tries to reveal anything about what goes on in the jamatkhanas or says anything bad publicly about Nizari Ismailism or the Aga Khan can be punished or even expelled from the community via the constitution I posted above, and thereafter treated very badly by anyone who is a Nizari Ismaili.

They have replaced salaah with their "Holy Du'a" or "Doowa," (for which, in the opening post of this thread, I share the old one that was in use until about 1955, as well as links to the one that's been in use ever since - and, if you don't believe me, print out the new one and take it to any Nizari Ismaili and they will probably admit to you that what you have really is their main daily prayer). This "Holy Du'a" is recited once in the morning and twice in the evening, including in the jamatkhana. In the jamatkhana, there are also some other practices that go on in addition to the "Holy Du'a," that are also full of shirk but that are difficult to talk about right now. No one is allowed in the jamatkhana other than Nizari Ismailis for this reason. They don't want anybody to know what is specifically recited in their jamatkhanas and all the shirk that is contained therein.

Nizari Ismailis pay at least 12.5% of their gross income to the Aga Khan each month (known as "dasond" or "tithes"). He keeps some of the money for himself and uses some of the money in his various charities (including the Aga Khan Development Network or AKDN). Nobody knows the split because it is secret and no one in the community has ever had the balls to ask for transparency in this regard. Given that there are 5-15 million Nizari Ismailis globally, and given that much of the community is quite prosperous, the "dasond" adds up to a figure that is probably in the billions of dollars each year. There is even some info on Wikipedia about this if you search "Aga Khan IV." It is part of the reason the Aga Khan is so wealthy.

There are only four aspects of the Islamic shariah that Nizari Ismailis are supposed to abide by (but even these they sometimes don't and nobody really cares...as long as nobody shares the secrets of the community and the secret practices that go on inside the jamatkhanas, and as long as nobody criticizes the community or the Aga Khan or makes either look bad publicly):
1. No alcohol.
2. No drugs.
3. No pork.
4. No gambling.

Anything else is allowed (pre-marital sex, abortions, boyfriends and girlfriends, social mixing, partying, clubbing, dressing however one wants, homosexuality, etc.). When I say anything else I really mean anything else.

The Aga Khan's commandments (which they call "firmans" and which are read both in the morning and evening on a daily basis in each jamatkhana around the world) are held above the Qur'an. His words are seen as the words of God, as Nizari Ismailis figure that anything he says has the same authority as the words of God. Most Nizari Ismailis don't even have a Qur'an and few have read it to any significant extent in their life. In their view, the Shariah that the Prophet (SAWS) practiced is time-bound and doesn't apply to todays 'modern world.' This is why their women dress like western women and why they don't follow any of the Shariah. Those Nizari Ismailis who do follow bits and pieces of the Shariah (such as fasting in Ramadhan) do so only to conform with what their Muslim neighbors and/or friends are doing, and so that nobody becomes suspicious or starts criticizing the Nizari Ismailis about how un-Islamic they are.

I should note that even Aga Khan himself (a normal fallible human being) doesn't believe in the **** he asks his followers to do and to believe in. The Aga Khan himself is more of a secular Muslim, although I'm not sure whether he is Sunni or Twelver Shia. He is apolitical and likes the life of the western world. He prays salaah, fasts in Ramadan, etc. like most normal Muslims, but, doesn't believe in implementing Islam much beyond this. The family members of the Aga Khan are either Sunni or Twelver Shia (many of them are Twelver Shia, apparently, but some may also be Sunni). Neither the Aga Khan nor his family EVER go to jamatkhanas nor do they participate in any of the acts of worship that the Aga Khan orders Nizari Ismailis to perform. . They distance themselves from anything Nizari Ismailis do privately, even though it is the Aga Khan who decides what Nizari Ismailis do privately in the jamatkhanas! If asked sincerely, a Nizari Ismaili you know may confirm this. A big sign of a cult is when the guy that's the leader or being worshiped doesn't actually do any of the things his community does, but, still collects tons of money from the community!

One has to concede that Nizari Ismailis are significantly more well off financially and professionally than they average Muslim community. The richer and more wealthy Nizari Ismailis become, the more they pay in tithes and the more wealthy the Aga Khan becomes. This is how it works, so the Aga Khan has a major interest in seeing his community become as prosperous as possible. So, the Aga Khan has really done as much as he possibly can to get his community to become as wealthy as possible. High levels of education, academic success, high paying jobs, and strong entrepreneurialism are all heavily stressed within the Nizari Ismaili community, and all Nizari Ismailis aim for these (big time!). The Aga Khan additionally stresses to his followers to do public volunteerism and public charity, if they have time to do so, because this is what will cause others to accept Nizari Ismailis as Muslims, and what will make the Nizari Ismailis look like an ideal / model community (both to Muslims and non-Muslims) in the public eye.

[Ruwayd]

Allamah Sayyid Saeed Akhtar Rizvi - (1927-2002) - of Tanzania, East Africa (home to many Shia Khojas) answers questions on Nizari Ismailis (published in 1975):


(he was the father of Hujjatul Islam Wal Muslimeen Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi, who is currently the Imam of ISIJ in Toronto)





Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Edited by Ruwayd, 04 May 2012 - 11:25 PM.

[Ruwayd]

Some facts about the current Nizari Ismaili "Holy Du'a":

-Text of the "Holy Du'a" can be found here and here. Trust me, it's correct. Any Nizari Ismaili who's honest will confirm this for you.

-You can also print out this post and, if they are honest, they will tell you that it's 100% correct.

-Most Nizari Ismailis can barely recite the Qur'an properly. If you have any Nizari Ismaili friends, ask them to recite Surah al-Fatihah or Surah al-Ikhlas (these are the only two complete surahs they learn) and you will most probably find that their ability to recite is very poor compared to the average Sunni or Twelver. Nizari Ismailis are always taught by other Nizari Ismailis how to recite the Qur'an (which explains why so many of them are very poor reciters), or they learn from a CD provided by the local Ismaili council, and no Nizari Ismailis learn Arabic growing up as part of the Nizari Ismaili student curriculum. This is why there are very, very few Nizari Ismailis in existence that know Arabic (outside of the Arab world). Many have never even opened a Qur'an (neither a translation or the real thing). After all, they feel they have the 'walking, talking Qur'an' and that the book version of the Qur'an largely doesn't apply to today's 'modern world.'

-The Holy Du'a is recited three times a day. The times for reciting aren't fixed to the Sun or how much light is outside. Rather, Nizari Ismailis are supposed to recite the Holy Du'a once in the morning and twice in the evening, based on the timezone that they're in. Nizari Ismailis could care less about the rotation of the sun. If you ask a Nizari Ismaili what time is Fajr or Dhuhr or Asr or Maghrib or Isha, they won't even know what in the world you're talking about 90% of the time (unless they've learned about it from a non-Ismaili source somehow). What matters to Nizari Ismailis is the clock that people use to tell the time. Morning is basically anytime before noon time. Evening is basically anytime after 6pm up until sunrise.

-Nizari Ismailis either sit on a chair or on their couch at home when reciting the Holy Du'a, if they're saying it at home. They sit cross-legged / zig-zag-legged on carpet if in a "Jamatkhana" (what Nizari Ismailis call their masjids), if they're young. There are chairs in the jamatkhana for older people who don't want to sit down on carpet. There is no sujood in the Holy Du'a (hands, face, forehead touching the floor). Rather, the prostration in the Holy Du'a consists of a simple nod of the head (a lot like how two people will nod at each other when walking past each other). This makes sense because, when one is sitting cross-legged or zig-zag-legged on carpet, it's difficult to do much more than nod the head somewhat, as a full sujood (like Sunnis and Twelvers do) would require sitting on one's knees rather than sitting as Nizari Ismailis do on carpet (cross-legged or zig-zag-legged). No part of the Nizari Ismaili's body touches the carpet or the floor when the prostration is done (other than the legs, in the case that the worshiper is sitting on carpet as opposed to on a sofa or chair).

-Let's put it this way: even an old man or woman who can barely move the limbs can say the Holy Du'a just as well as and just as easily as a young athlete with the flexibility of a ballerina. There's very little body movement involved.

-No standing occurs in the recitation of the Holy Du'a. It is 100% said sitting down and sitting in one place.

-There is no wu'du before prayer. You can pray as is or even after just having answered the call of nature or having had sexual relations. There are no prerequisites to being able to recite the Holy Du'a. It can also be recited anywhere (car, plane, outside, on a bus, etc. - wherever, even the washroom is fine). There are no dress requirements, either. You can say it in your underwear if you want. There are virtually no rules. If someone's knocking at the door while you're saying the Holy Du'a, you can open the door and let the person in and go back to the part of the Holy Du'a you were in and finish it up.

-It takes about 3-7 minutes to recite, depending on how fast the person recites. So, it takes a total of about 15 minutes per day for all of the three Holy Du'a that are to be recited each day.

-Nizari Ismailis are supposed to recite the evening "Holy Du'a" in their jamatkhana as much as possible. That's why more devout Nizari Ismailis will frequently go to the jamatkhana in the evening (at 7-8 pm, typically) multiple times each week (especially Friday evening, which is considered the most important night of the week). In the jamatkhana, there are other worship services performed other than simply the Holy Du'a. Altogether, jamatkhana worship services typically take 30-90 minutes to complete, and that includes the recitation of two Holy Du'a. Aga Khan encourages Nizari Ismailis to go to evening jamatkhana as much as possible - perhaps because that's where a lot of the money that goes to the Aga Khan is raised, as there are a number of ceremonies that go on that require money. For example, one ceremony involves the sale of food that people bring from home, and the proceeds from sale go 100% to the Aga Khan. One of the ceremonies, which involves asking for forgiveness of sins and which all attendees must do, requires the giving of at least a little bit of money - even a penny is fine, but, typically a Nizari Ismaili will spend at least a quarter on this ceremony, at minimum. Many Nizari Ismailis will spend much more money in the jamatkhana than a quarter; sometimes even tens or hundreds of dollars on a single visit).

-For the super devout Nizari Ismaiis, there's also a morning jamatkhana service that goes on from about 3-4 AM. It's similar to evening jamatkhana, but, only consists of one recitation of the Holy Du'a. Also, there's a meditation session in the morning jamatkhana service where they turn off the lights in the jamatkhana for like 10-30 minutes, and everyone is supposed to recite dhikr on his/her own. This practice is referred to by Nizari Ismailis as "bandagi." A person can recite whatever he/she wants, including: Ya Ali, Ya Muhammad, Ya Hazir Imam, Ya Allah, etc. Some of the attendees have previously been individually given, during a past visit of the Aga Khan to their community, a special dhikr that they're supposed to recite in this meditation session (through a ceremony that costs money called "Isme'e-Azam"). Anyway, Aga Khan tells them that if they do dhikr enough during this meditation session, and with enough passion and enough conviction, and in the 'right way,' then they will actually somehow be able to see the Noor of Allah during the meditation session, and this is supposed to give them immense happiness. So, this is what all the worshipers in the meditation session really strive to do, and they're happy if it even 'happens' (as if that's even possible) once in their lifetime.

-Both morning and evening jamatkhana services take place every single day of the year, no matter the day. Always at roughly the same time of the day (slightly earlier on weekends and slightly later on weekdays).

-Prayer can be done in any direction. Qibla direction is irrelevant to Nizari Ismailis. Yes, certain Nizari Ismaili Jamatkhanas have been built to face the qibla to make it look like prayers are said in the direction of the qibla (and to make Nizari Ismailis not stand out from regular Muslims), but, in fact, inside the jamatkhana people can pray in any direction (and do). Go to any Nizari Ismaili home and they will have no idea which way the Qibla is at all.

Edited by Ruwayd, 07 May 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[Ruwayd]

Documents Show That
Previous Nizari Ismaili Imam's
Own Mother Was a Twelver

This will take some reading to get through.

The current Imam of the Nizari Ismailis, who is the 49th Imam, is called Aga Khan IV.

His predecessor, the 48th Imam of the Nizari Ismailis, was Aga Khan III.

Aga Khan III was taken to court in the High Court of Bombay in 1908 by a relative of the Aga Khan III named Haji Bibi. I've mentioned this case in earlier posts in this thread. But, to recap, Haji Bibi was suing the Aga Khan for not getting a share in the tithes that the Aga Khan is given by his Nizari Ismaili followers. The case was presided over by Judge Justice Russell and became known as the "Haji Bibi Case." Ultimately, the Aga Khan won the case and obtained sole authority over all of the tithes given to him.

The Aga Khan III wrote a book later in his life called Memoirs of Aga Khan (can be read online here) where he made mention of the case:

My mother gave evidence on my behalf and was complimented by the judge, who said that she had "displayed an extraordinary memory." I was fortunate in my counsel, Mr. Inverarity, a keen and able lawyer. When at length the hearings ended and the presiding judge, Mr. Justice Russell, summed up, his judgment proved to be a classic example of its kind -- a masterly, lucid, wide-ranging survey of Islamic history, religion, custom and law.

The actual court documents from the Haji Bibi Case are now available online through the High Court of Bombay (click here to see them).

In the court documents, we come across a startling passage by Judge Justice Russell regarding Aga Khan III's mother, whom he had said had testified on his behalf in the court. This passage by Judge Justice Russell also makes mention of an interesting controversy surrounding Aga Khan III (keep in mind that "defendant No. 1" refers to Aga Khan III):

There can be no doubt that the mother of defendant No. 1 [mother of Aga Khan III] and some of his [the Aga Khan III's] relatives are Asna Ashris. He himself frankly admitted that he had been present on an occasion when the Ziarat to the 3rd, 8th and the 12th Imams was said but he did not repeat it (p. 198). As a great deal has been attempted to be made of the faith of defendant No. 1 [Aga Khan III], I think it desirable to read his exact words (p. 214, line 22 to p. 216, line 4). To my mind it is impossible to believe that defendant No. 1 [Aga Khan III] believes in a faith, the result of which belief would be that he was no longer entitled to his position of Hazar Imam, that he was no longer entitled to receive offerings from his followers from all over world, and, in short, as Mr. Inverarity put it, that he was practising a gross imposture. I cannot believe that if he [Aga Khan III] really were an Asna Ashri, he would allow his followers to repeat in all reverence and on their knees in the Bombay Jamatkhana three times a day the Doowa, D. H. 132, set out at length below, a prayer in which inter alia all the 48 Imams are recited, and obeisance is made' when the name of the Imam for the time being is uttered.

I think the above speaks for itself. Rather amazing that a Nizari Ismaili Imam's own mother (along with "some of his relatives") didn't believe her son was actually an Imam, and instead chose to follow the Twelver Shia faith. Who knows a man better than his mother? Furthermore, why in the world is Aga Khan III attending Ziarat for Twelver Imams at an Imambargah or at a Twelver masjid? Let me repeat: the actual court documents from the Haji Bibi Case are now available online through the High Court of Bombay (click here to see them).

The Judge further adds:

Shia Imami Ismailis hold Ismail, the 7th in descent from Ali, to have been the last of the revealed Imams, and they also hold that, until the final manifestation of Ali, who as an Incarnation of God, is to come before the end of all things to judge the world, the musnud of the Imamate, or in Latin idiom the office of Supreme Pontiff, is rightfully held by an hereditary succession of unrevealed Imams, the lineal descendants of Ali through Ismail.The revealed Imams, according to the Ismailis, are these seven:(1)Ali, (2) Hasan, (3) Husein, (4) Zenalabadeen (this was that son of Husein who survived the massacre of Kerbala), (5) Mahomed Bakar, (6) Jaffar Sadak, (7) Ismail (who died before his father, and is called from his father's name Ismail bin Jaffar Sadak). But the Khojas regard the 2nd one, namely Hasan, merely as a Pir (see the Doowa). But the unrevealed Imams continue down to defendant 1 [Aga Khan III], who is the 48th. Their names are set out in Ex. D.H. 132, the Doowa.

This was the real, true faith of the Nizari Ismailis - at least in the 19th century and up until about 1955-56, pretty much any historical material you find says that Nizari Ismailis believed that their Imam and God are one and the same. As discussed in previous posts in this thread, it is only really since about 1956, when the "Holy Du'a" or "Doowa" was changed to become less extreme / heretical and less full of shirk, that more and more Nizari Ismailis are saying that their Imam is no different from the Imam of any other Shia group in terms of status. The Aga Khan IV, also, does not openly claim to be Allah like his predecessor so candidly and frankly did. Rather, the Aga Khan IV instead says that he is the "bearer of the Noor of Allah" (which to me doesn't sound much different from claiming to be Allah, anyway...it's a lot like the difference between the Father and the Son in Christianity). Let me add that there are still large portions of Nizari Ismailis today that consider their Imam to be the same as Allah - although some of them will not talk about it publicly. I've given links in prior posts in this thread from a Nizari Ismaili forum showing that many Nizari Ismailis still believe that their Imam is an incarnation of Allah, and here are the links again:

Ismaili Thread of Shirk - 1

Ismaili Thread of Shirk - 2

Ismaili Thread of Shirk - 3

Edited by Ruwayd, 08 May 2012 - 04:04 AM.

[Aly ReZa]

after reading this i have a doubt
http://www.shiachat....__fromsearch__1

Edited by Aly ReZa, 08 May 2012 - 04:03 AM.

[Ruwayd]

Aly ReZa, on 08 May 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

after reading this i have a doubt
http://www.shiachat....__fromsearch__1

Well, he said that nine years earlier than when the Haji Bibi Case occurred (i.e. 1899 is when he made the prediction you're referring to versus the case above which occurred in 1908), and maybe he made the prediction you're referring to just for the sake of appearance. He has to make Nizari Ismailis believe that he's really with them and he's really their leader, rather than a Twelver, for instance.

It should be noted that, at the time the Aga Khan made the prediction that the Twelvers would disappear, many Khojas in India were converting out of the Nizari Ismaili faith and into the Twelver faith. So, he may have felt compelled to say something to try and quell the conversions.

I realize it all sounds pretty screwed up. Welcome to Nizari Ismailism. Where nothing makes sense and where contradictions are everywhere.

[Aly ReZa]

Ruwayd, on 08 May 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

Well, he said that nine years earlier than when the Haji Bibi Case occurred (i.e. 1899 is when he made the prediction you're referring to versus the case above which occurred in 1908), and maybe he made the prediction you're referring to just for the sake of appearance. He has to make Nizari Ismailis believe that he's really with them and he's really their leader, rather than a Twelver, for instance.

It should be noted that, at the time the Aga Khan made the prediction that the Twelvers would disappear, many Khojas in India were converting out of the Nizari Ismaili faith and into the Twelver faith. So, he may have felt compelled to say something to try and quell the conversions.

I realize it all sounds pretty screwed up. Welcome to Nizari Ismailism. Where nothing makes sense and where contradictions are everywhere.

i am from india and atleast 15 to 20 pepl from my bulding only has been converted from ismailis to shia now
so its a flat slap on the predictor face

[Kismet110]

If what's written on this thread is true (no reason to doubt it as plenty of verifiable links) then these people are well and truly 'messed' up.

Maula give more of them hidayaat to come to the path of Truth ....

ALI

[Ruwayd]

The religion is indeed very screwed up. Among the famous former adherents of Nizari Ismailism are Muhammad Ali Jinnah (Founder of Pakistan, who later became Twelver, along with his sister) and Pervez Hoodbhoy (one of Pakistan's top physics professors and who obtained a PhD from MIT...he later became a secular Sunni). Here is what Professor Hoodbhoy said about leaving Nizari Ismailism in a 2004 interview:




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However, let me once again repeat that, in a material sense or in a  financial sense - and in terms of career success - Nizari Ismailis are more prosperous than the vast majority of religious communities. They are second only to Jews in this regard, I imagine. Part of the reason guys like Muhammad Ali Jinnah and Pervez Hoodbhoy got as far as they did in their respective careers is because how well educated they were (I'm talking about secular education), and a big reason they were so well educated is that the Aga Khan has and continues to demand that Nizari Ismailis be the best and the brightest - both in schools and in the workplaces, as well as in business generally. Why? The more financially and materially successful that Nizari Ismailis become, the richer and more prosperous the Aga Khan becomes, due to all the money the Aga Khan gets from his followers. Every Nizari Ismaili is obliged to give at least 12.5% of his annual gross income to the Aga Khan (called dasond), on top of money that is already given each time a Nizari Ismaili goes to Jamatkhana. Many Nizari Ismailis give the Aga Khan much more than simply 12.5% of their gross income (sometimes they give double or triple, etc. - especially those Nizari Ismailis that have become very wealthy).

So, this is how it works. Think of it as a business arrangement. The more successful a Nizari Ismaili becomes, the wealthier and more powerful the Aga Khan becomes. Aga Khan is much more than well aware of all this, of course, and it is why he spends so much time ensuring that his community is as well educated and has as much career and financial success as possibile. Nizari Ismailis don't notice this and think the Aga Khan is simply working out of love for his followers. They don't see the business relationship that I'm mentioning here.The whole Nizari Ismaili faith is setup almost like a hedge fund, where each Nizari Ismaili must pay a performance fee (based on what they are earning through their job or business) to the Aga Khan in the form of varous tithes. Naturally, the Aga Khan wants the absolute amount of this performance fee to be as high as possible - both now and in future generations.

And, as I said before:

Ruwayd, on 01 May 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

The Aga Khan additionally stresses to his followers to do public volunteerism and public charity, if they have time to do so, because this is what will cause others to accept Nizari Ismailis as regular Muslims, and what will make the Nizari Ismailis look like an ideal / model community (both to Muslims and non-Muslims) in the public eye.

Edited by Ruwayd, 08 May 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Ismailite]

This thread is most unfortunate.  Some of what is posted is true but it is mixed with inaccuracies and falsehood and information from dubious sources.

Most importantly the theoretical and doctrinal understanding of Ismailism is not present in these discussions.

As a Nizaris Ismaili who has studied primary Ismaili sources and academic secondary works and have also seen the  practices in the Jamatkhana and heard/read the Aga Khans words and guidance directly, I can safely say that the Ismailis don't see the Imam as God.  The Imam in Shia spiritual thought is the Mazhar of God but not equal to God.  The work of the scholar Moezzi which goes to the texts of early Twelver Shiism shows this quite clearly.  In Shiism and Ismailism God is absolutely transcendent and beyond being and categories. So its very insincere and irresponsible to say that Ismaili doctrine considers the Imam to be God Himself.

[Ruwayd]

I challenge "Ismailite" (a.k.a. Khalil Andani, an aspiring Nizari Ismaili missionary) to tell us what the inaccuracies are in what I've posted. Perhaps there are inaccuracies in what others have posted in this thread, as I haven't read through it. But, as far as what I've posted, everything is factual and I've tried to share evidences wherever I can. The court documents and the discussions on the ismaili.net forums that I bring forward speak for themselves. You know as well as I do that the links to the Nizari Ismaili "Holy Du'a that I give are also 100% accurate.

Unsurprisingly, Ismailite, you're once again trying your absolute best to protect the Nizari Ismailis'  religious practices from looking backward and contradictory. The Nizari Ismailism practiced today and since the 19th century, under the Aga Khans, is absolutely and completely different from Fatimid Ismailism or Bohra Ismailism, and contradicts the old theology of Nizari Ismailism (from several hundred years ago) in many, many ways! Don't even try to and bring sources from way back then to justify the stuff Nizari Ismailis have been practicing over the last 200+ years!! Go ahead and try to do your denials. Regarding divinity of the Aga Khan, these threads on the ismaili.net forums speak for themselves:

Ismaili Thread of Shirk - 1

Ismaili Thread of Shirk - 2

Ismaili Thread of Shirk - 3


Let me point out that between the 19th century and up to about 1955-56, the Aga Khan was considered God. The old "Holy Du'a" (that was recited thrice daily between the time of Aga Khan I and about 1955-56) clearly said that the Aga Khan was the incarnation of Allah, as just one example. The court documents from the High Court of Bombay clearly show this. Numerous older Nizari Ismailis know that Aga Khans I through III declared themselves to be incarnations of God. There are farmans from Aga Khan III where he clearly indicates that he is the same as Allah. There are also many Ismaili ginans (religious hymns supposedly written by Nizari Ismaili "pirs") as well that say the Imam and Allah are one in the same. Much of this is discussed on the ismaili.net forums and some of it can be found in the links that I gave, where you'll see Nizari Ismailis discussing these matters amongst themselves.

In 1955-56, the Nizari Ismaili "Holy Du'a" was changed by Aga Khan III, near the end of his life. From this "Holy Du'a," the phrases saying that the Imam is the incarnation of Allah were removed. As a result, since 1955-56, Nizari Ismailis have held mixed beliefs about their Imam, who has left it up to his followers to decide who he is. Many still believe he is Allah, especially amongst the older generations who remember what the old "Holy Du'a" looked like and what the old farmans of the Aga Khan said about himself. There are many prayers that are said today in the Nizari Ismaili jamatkhana each day (morning and evening) where the Aga Khan is worshipped and directly invoked, through works like "Ya Hazar Imam...." Nizari Ismailis don't invoke Allah when making supplications for things in the Jamatkhana, rather they invoke their Imam, who they believe can see the Unseen and possesses a mysterious concept called the "Noor of Allah." Now, you cannot separate Allah into pieces. So, I'm not sure what the difference is between the "Noor of Allah" and Allah, but, I digress...

I have no problem saying that most of the younger generation of Nizari Ismailis doesn't consider Aga Khan to be the incarnation of Allah. Rather, they consider him to be an infallible and sinless man, but, still a bearer of the "Noor of Allah." But, even among the younger generation of Nizari Ismailis, there are many today - taking after their parents and grandparents - who certainly do believe their Imam is the same as Allah. Nizari Ismailism isn't one monolithic faith. Some Nizari Ismailis commit more shirk than others, and some are more heretical than others. All are welcome to the faith and welcome to the jamatkhana to pay their tithes, of course. The Aga Khan doesn't clarify who he is, of course, and insists on simply asserting that it depends on a believer's capacity. Keep in mind that most prayers are addressed to the Aga Khan rather than Allah. They do this by saying "Ya Hazar Imam..." or "Ya Ali..." (since they believe that Ali's soul is inside of the Aga Khan, and that Ali's soul is the same as the "Noor of Allah").

We already know that Aga Khans I through III clearly proclaimed themselves to be incarnations of God, as is clearly shown in the Haji Bibi case court documents from the High Court of Bombay, where Judge Justice Russell says:

This Doowa [a.k.a. "Holy Du'a"] is practically the same as the one in Hassanali's [Aga Khan I's] time, D.H. 128, and Ali Shah's [Aga Khan II's] time, D.H. 129, except the necessary addition of the Aga Khan [III] for the time being.

Once again, here is an excerpt of the old "Holy Du'a" that Judge Justice Russell is referring to and that was recited from the time of Aga Khan I through to the time of Aga Khan III, directly from the High Court of Bombay court documents of the Haji Bibi case where the Aga Khan III was the main defendant and was present in person during all proceedings (and didn't object to the proclamation that he's the incarnation of Allah):

True declaration--God is Holy. Thanks to God. Praise to God. There is no God but God. God is Great. There is no might or power except that of God, the High the Great, the Merciful, the Magnanimous, the Good, the Great Holy Providence (Who is) in the district of Chaldea, in Persia, in human form descended from the seventy-seven Patras (ancestors), and Who is the forty-eighth. Imam (Spiritual Chief) the tenth Naklanki Avtar, our Master, Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah [Aga Khan III], the Giver.

Judge Justice Russell describes the faith of Nizari Ismailis, in the Haji Bibi case:
Shia Imami Ismailis hold Ismail, the 7th in descent from Ali, to have been the last of the revealed Imams, and they also hold that, until the final manifestation of Ali, who as an Incarnation of God, is to come before the end of all things to judge the world, the musnud of the Imamate, or in Latin idiom the office of Supreme Pontiff, is rightfully held by an hereditary succession of unrevealed Imams, the lineal descendants of Ali through Ismail.

None of this was objected to by the Aga Khan. In fact, the Aga Khan helped ensure that the material presented by the Judge on Nizari Ismailism was in fact accurate. The Judge even went so far as to visit a jamatkhana and watch Nizari Ismailis worship their Imam in-person:

When the Hazar Imam names a child, a fee of Rs. 2-10-0 is paid for the males and Rs. 1-6-0 for a female.

There is another ceremony called Sir Bundi," literally the offering of the head. In this ceremony the follower puts the whole of his property at the disposal of the Imam through the committee of elders in the Jamatkhana. But they magnanimously relieve him from such an excessive sacrifice. They fix the price at which he is to buy back the whole of his property and the price so fixed is paid to the Imam.

I myself went with the Counsel of some of the parties to Jamatkhana and saw the Thalsufra and Sir Bundi.

We sat on chairs in front of a raised seat or throne on which the Aga Khan sits when he attends the Jamatkhana. The whole large room was full of Khojas seated and at times kneeling on the ground, in another room the women of the community were collected in large numbers and going through similar ceremonies. It was a most impressive sight owing to the reverence with which the whole proceedings were conducted.

The court documents that I'm referring to, once again, are available here directly from the High Court of Bombay, for all of us (including Khalil Andani = Ismailite) to see: http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1531123/

The court documents speak for themselves.

Edited by Ruwayd, 08 May 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Aly ReZa]

time starts now

[Ismailite]

So if you've already made up your mind and don't want to know how the Aga Khan himself defined the Imam and the Nur of the Imam, what the official Institute of Ismaili Studies says about Ismaili doctrine, and would instead rather take people's subjective beliefs (Ismaili.net forums) as fact then that's up to you. In that case I don't see the point of participating here.

Just remember one thing. The Ismaili Tariqah is not a dogma and as such beliefs and doctrines are not forced down people's throats.  Further what people or individuals express in words does not always express what they believe in their hearts.  Faith is a matter of the heart and whereas something may appear to you subjectively as shirk in reality it may not be so - you cannot see onto people's hearts and minds so you cannot judge what is shirk or not. The Imam has a spiritual relationship with each murid and this is not based on a received dogma but a personal search which each murid does himself.

Finally there are levels of belief and faith. There is the official doctrine of the Ismaili community and then individuals have their own beliefs - beliefs are always conditioned by the social and cultural context, they don't come about in vacuums. You cannot judge the faith of a whole community based on what individuals appear to believe personally.  Finally faith or imam is more then belief or aqeeda. Aqeeda is always articulated based on context and it evolves throughout ones life and experiences.  Faith is much more inward and essential than aqeeda so you cannot judge one by the other. Go and read Rumis story of Moses and the Shepherd if you don't know what I mean.

[Ruwayd]

Ismailite, on 08 May 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

So if you've already made up your mind and don't want to know how the Aga Khan himself defined the Imam and the Nur of the Imam, what the official Institute of Ismaili Studies says about Ismaili doctrine, and would instead rather take people's subjective beliefs (Ismaili.net forums) as fact then that's up to you. In that case I don't see the point of participating here.

First of all, Khalil / Ismailite, you're free to post what you like within the rules of the forum. You're free to respond as you wish. So far, you're basically confirming that what I've shared is factual, but, that I just don't understand it like a proper Nizari Ismaili would. No kidding. You're absolutely right about that. Any regular Muslim would not find these things acceptable, no matter what the explanation is that you or other Nizari Ismailis might give.

We should also mention to all the readers that it is the Aga Khan himself who began the Institute of Ismaili Studies and who owns it. Both the Aga Khan and his last few predecessors had no idea what Fatimid Era and pre-Fatimid Era Ismailism looked like. Thus, a portion of the tithe money (billions per year) they get from Nizari Ismailis was used to start research on what Ismailism from several hundred years ago looked like and consisted of. So far, what they've found is that Fatimid and pre-Fatimid Ismailism is not that different from modern-day Bohra Ismailism or Twelver Shi'ism - but, very different from recent and modern-day Nizari Ismailism.

Do you really expect anyone here to believe, Khalil, that current and recent practices and articles of faith of the Nizari Ismailis (i.e. within the last 2-3 centures) that go on inside jamatkhanas or in Nizari Ismaili homes are going to be published in widely available books by the Institute of Ismaili Studies that anyone can go and read? We all know that isn't happening.

Most of the books you'd like us to read, Khalil, from the Institute of Ismaili Studies and elsewhere, relate to how Ismailism worked before the reign of the Aga Khans (i.e. prior to the 19th and especially prior to the 18th century) - and that form of Ismailism is a lot like Bohra Ismailism and Twelver Shi'ism. What people want to know instead is what Nizari Ismailism has looked like over the last 200 or so years (especially since the reign of the Aga Khans) as well as what it looks like today, which no Nizari Ismailis will talk about publicly (although they may open up somewhat if you get close to them and talk with them privately) and which no publicly available books will talk about (with the exception of Akbarally Meherally's books - and, as I've said before, I don't necessarily like the guy but anyone who does their due diligence will find that 70-85% of what Meherally writes is perfectly accurate, while the rest is speculative or difficult to comment on with certainty).

Secondly, how is what I've presented subjective? Court documents from a case in which the Aga Khan was directly involved? Farmans (pronouncements) of the Imam? Ginans (hymns) recited in the jamatkhana? The "Holy Du'a" (Ismaili salaat) recited in the jamatkhana - both before and after 1956, including the old "Holy Du'a" which had been recited from the beginning of the 19th century up to 1956?

These are all primary source documents. I'm only linking to the forums to provide secondary evidence and to show that Nizari Ismailis from the present day still retain many of these beliefs, if not all of them. The primary evidence is quite visible and the secondary evidence is perfectly valid, as Ismaili.net is used by many Nizari Ismailis to converse about their faith and to explore matters of their faith. I'm amazed that the Ismaili.net forums are even publicly accessible. I'm sure some Nizari Ismailis like Khalil, who don't want Muslims to see how unorthodox Nizari Ismailis are, would really like it if Ismaili.net was closed off to the public. Thankfully, it hasn't been...yet, anyway.

We could go on and on about the shirk that has been included in Nizari Ismailism since the reign of the Aga Khans as Nizari Ismaili Imams. Take the Ginan Allah ek Kasam Sabuka, where it says that the progeny of Ali is Islam Shah the king. Allah is that Imam. The list can go on and on (Hak tu Pak tu, etc.).

Through the old Nizari Ismaili "Holy Du'a", Aga Khans I through III made two very clear statements:
1. Ali Allah – meaning Ali is Allah - and to further reiterated the meaning, they maintained:
2. Ali sahi Allah – meaning Ali is truly Allah.

Both these statements were used interchangeably, but had the very same meaning. The message was that Ali, or in this case the present living Imam, is Allah in the manifest form.

As a Nizari Ismaili, to this very day, every time you go jamatkhana, you recite congregational "tasbih" (what regular Muslims call  "du'aa" or supplication), whereby you and your Nizari Ismaili coreligionists say: "Oh Ali, Oh Hazer Imam...do such and such for us..."

You're only kidding yourself if you won't admit in this thread that everything I've posted is indeed true. These articles of faith and practices of Nizari Ismailis that I've highlighted are things that neither Bohra Ismailis nor Ismailis from the pre-Fatimid and the Fatimid eras would ever have anything to do with, of course. Even your modern "Holy Du'a," which has been recited thrice daily since 1956, has shirk in it. The links are in this thread for anyone who wishes to read it.

Edited by Ruwayd, 08 May 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[macisaac]

Ismailite, on 08 May 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

The work of the scholar Moezzi which goes to the texts of early Twelver Shiism shows this quite clearly.

Moezzi is hardly representational of early Twelver Shi`ism.. He's made a career of pushing the most unorthodox and fringe notions, pretty much denying the existence of the ghulat in order to normalize their beliefs and conflate them for actual Imamism.  If you want to go that route of pointing to academics I could cite Hossein Moddarressi to show the exact opposite with groups like the Mufawwida and other ghulat as being outside the early mainstream (far outside).  Fact is these types of strange beliefs wherever you find them in early texts are just about always associated with individuals that were long known for their habit of forgery and their distance from the inner circles of the Imams' disciples.  Such beliefs simply are not found amongst those of their companions who were close to them and stayed on the faith.

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  In Shiism and Ismailism God is absolutely transcendent and beyond being and categories. So its very insincere and irresponsible to say that Ismaili doctrine considers the Imam to be God Himself.

While I'm glad you rightly separated Ismailism from Shi`ism, you are incorrect in ascribing Ismaili neo-platonic constructs and gnostic ideas to the latter in terms of theological beliefs, that so separates God from even being itself (contradicting the hadith of the Imam that affirms Allah to be a shay') that they start inventing weird ideas like a demiurge in between god, as well as emphasizing on recognizing the divinity of the Imam (since God is completely unknowable).

[Ismailite]

1. Neither the Aga Khan IV nor the Aga Khan III have claimed to be God.  In fact, there is no statement from any Isma'ili Imam where they claim to be God Himself.  In 1976, the Ismailia Paris Conference issued a resolution which stated that "the Imam is to be explained as the 'mazhar' of God".  A mazhar is a locus of manifestation and is a concept which is prominent in esoteric and Islamic philosophy - especially in the works of Nasir al-Din Tusi, ibn al-Arabi, and even Mulla Sadra.  Everything in the universe is a mazhar of God - that is, a sign or mirror which reflects the Names of God, but in Shi'ite belief, the Imam is the greatest mazhar (locus of manifestation) of the Divine Names.

2. Examine the current Isma'ili Du'a and see how it positions the status of the Imam vis a vis the status of God.

a) In Part 1, the murid recites "O Allah bestow Your blessings upon Muhammad al-Mustafa, and upon 'Ali al-Murtada, and upon the Pure Imams and upon the Proof of the Command, the master of the Age and the Time, Mawlana Shah Karim al-Husayni.

In Part 2, the murid declares "there is no god except God, Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and 'Ali the Commander of the Faithful is the exalted of God"

c) In Part 2, the murid declares "in times of difficulty, seek the mediation (tawassalu) of your mawla, the Present and Living Shah Karim al-Husayni" (note, the term tawassul is from "wasila" which means "means", "medium")

d) In Part 4, the murid supplices to God and says "O Allah, forgive us our sins, and sustain us, and have mercy upon us, BY THE RIGHT OF (bi-haqqi) Your closest Messengers and Your pure Imams and BY THE RIGHT OF our mawla and our Imam, Shah Karim al-Husayni"

e) In Part 6, the murid supplicates to God and says "O Allah, BY THE RIGHT of Muhammad al-Mustafa, 'Ali al-Murtada, Fatima az-Zahra, and Hasan and Husayn...O Allah, BY THE RIGHT OF (bi-haqqi), our mawla 'Ali, our mawla Husayn, (all 49 Imams names are recited) and BY THE RIGHT OF our mawla and our Imam, Shah Karim al-Husayni..."

So what we see from the official Ismaili Du'a is supplications which pray to Allah, invoking the right and intercession and mediation of the Imams and the Imam of the Time - something which ALL Shi'a Muslims do.  There is absolutely no shirk in this.  The Quran in verse 5:35 says "O ye who believe, Be aware of Allah and seek the Means of Approach (al-wasila) unto Him."  For Shia Muslims, the Wasilah - the Means/Medium of Approach - unto God is the Prophet Muhammad and the Imams of his Ahl al-Bayt after him.  Even Sunni Muslims and Sufis accept the intercession of the Prophet Muhammad and some accept the intercession of the Imams and Awliya.

So your argument holds no water - the normative position of the Ismaili Tariqah is clear in the Isma'ili Du'a.

The Haji Bibi Case and the Aga Khan Case was not about what official Ismaili doctrine is.  It was about whether a particular community amongst the Isma'ilis - the Khojas - were Twelvers, Sunnis or Isma'ilis.

The Khojas as you know come from a Hindu context where the relationship between humans and God is conceived differently than in Arab/Persian Islam.  In such a context, the Isma'ili Da'is and Pirs found the closest parallel concept to that of Imam/Mazhar and that is the concept of Avatara.  The Avatara was the manifestation of Vishnu for the Vaishnavite Hindus and this concept was used to get the Khojas to accept the Nizari Ismaili Imams.  In the Indian culture, it was normal to conceive the divine in terms of its human manifestations and much of the opinions and testimony we read in the Court Cases reflects this.  None of the Central Asian, Iranian, Arab, Chinese, or other Isma'ilis subscribed to the Khoja ideas of Imams as incarnations of God.  This sort of thinking was only prevalent amongst the South Asian communities.  Even then, Isma'ilis were not the only ones to draw such parallels - even in Bengali Islam, the Prophet Muhammad was first introduced by the Sufi preachers as the 10th Avatara of Vishnu.

[Ruwayd]

1. Here are some instances of shirk in the Nizari Ismaili "Holy Du'a" that is recited today:

From part II of the current "Holy Du'a":

"O 'Aly, help me with Thy kindness."

From part III of the current "Holy Du'a":

There is no hero except 'Aly. there is no sword except (his sword) 'Zulfiqar'.

Seek at the time of difficulties, the help of your Lord, the present living (Imam) Shah Karim al-Husayni.

From part VI of the current "Holy Du'a":

O 'Aly, O Muhammad; O Muhammad. O 'Aly.

O Imam of the time, O our Lord, Thou art my strength and Thou art my support and on Thee I rely. O present O living, O Shah Karim al-Husayni, Thou art the true manifest Imam.

The above are obvious statements of shirk. As in most things I present related to Nizari Ismailism, no explanation is required.

2. Regarding the translation of "mazhar" of God, that is the translation you give. Others would translate "mazhar" as "manifestation" or "copy." The present Aga Khan hasn't provided any clarification on this to his followers, which is partly why so many still believe he is the same as Allah:
Ismaili Thread of Shirk - 1
Ismaili Thread of Shirk - 2
Ismaili Thread of Shirk - 3


3. Regarding the Haji Bibi case, it had nothing to do with who was or wasn't a Khoja. You're getting confused and thinking of the 1866 Khoja Case which is completely different. The Haji Bibi case was where a relative of Aga Khan III claimed that the offerings made to the Aga Khan by his followers were not made to him personally, and were not his personal property, but were for the benefit of all the members of the Aga Khan family.


4. Khalil, here is the translation of the old Nizari Ismaili "Holy Du'a", that was recited thrice daily by Nizari Ismailis until 1956. It clearly says the Aga Khan is the incarnation of God. Go and find the text of the old "Holy Du'a" from your parents or elders in your community and you will see that it clearly says that the Imam is Allah ("Ali Sahi Allah"). Every Nizari Ismaili who's recited the old "Holy Du'a", and thereby was born before say 1945, can vouch for this.

Ruwayd, on 28 April 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Source: High Court of Bombay (Official) - http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1531123/


THE DOOWA.
27. Say your prayers--Say your prayers-Say your prayers. May God bless you! Take the name of God. May the Lord Ali grant you faith and modesty. 0 Shah, accept my evening prayer and supplication by virtue of the privilege Thou possesseth, O our Master Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah.
28. (Then) you are to prostrate. If it is the night prayer, say "My evening and night supplications" and if it is the morning prayer, say "My evening, night and morning supplications."
29. Then repeat the rosary and prostrate.
30. Then repeat the following:
I repent for my sins. I repent for my sins. I am a sinful servant (of Thine), sinful from top to toe. O Shah, the Forgiver, forgive me. The Pirs pray (Thy) servant supplicates. Thou, 0 True Shah, accepteth the same. (I obey) the Firman (i.e., mandate) of the Shah as communicated by the Pir.
31. Having said the above keep the rosary on the ground and repeat the following:
True declaration--God is Holy. Thanks to God. Praise to God. There is no God but God. God is Great. There is no might or power except that of God, the High the Great, the Merciful, the Magnanimous, the Good, the Great Holy Providence (Who is) in the district of Chaldea, in Persia, in human form descended from the seventy-seven Patras (ancestors), and Who is the forty-eighth. Imam (Spiritual Chief) the tenth Naklanki Avtar, our Master, Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah [Aga Khan III], the Giver.
(Then) you are to prostrate. Then say "Hak Shah" (i.e., O Shah, Thou art true) and repeat (the names of) the ancestors of Vishnu and of the successors of the Shah.
(Names of) Vishnu's ancestors:
* * * * * *
The successors of the Shah say (the defendants of) Abu Taleb Vali (are):
1. Our true Lord Shah Ali.
2. Our true Lord Shah Husein.
3. Our true Lord Shah Zenal Abadeen.
4. Our true Lord Shah Mahomed Bakar.
5. Our true Lord Shah Jaffer Sadak.
6. Our true Lord Shah Ismail.
7. Our true Lord Shah Mahomed bin Shah Ismail.
8. Our true Lord Shah Vafi Ahmed.
9. Our true Lord Shall Taki Mahomed.
10. Our true Lord Shah Razi Abdulla.
11. Our true Lord Shah Mehdi Mahomed.
12. Our true Lord Shah Kayem.
13. Our true Lord Shah Mansur.
14. Our true Lord Shah Moezz.
15. Our true Lord Shah Aziz.
16. Oar true Lord Shah Hakem Abu Ali.
17. Our true Lord Shah Lahir Ali.
18. Our true Lord Shah Mustansirbillah.
19. Our true Lord Shah Nizar.
20. Our true Lord Shah Hadi.
21. Our true Lord Shah Mohtadi.
22. Our true Lord Shah Kaher.
23. Our true Lord Shah Ali Zakaria Salam.
24. Our true Lord Shah Ala Mahomed.
25. Our true Lord Shah Khud Jalal-ud-din Hassan.
26. Our true Lord Shah Alaudin Mahomed.
27. Our true Lord Shah Ruknudin Khoor Shah.
28. Our true Lord Shah Shamsudin Mahomed.
29. Our true Lord Shah Kassam.
30. Our, true Lord Shah Islam Shah.
31. Our true Lord Shah Mahomed bin Islam Shah.
32. Our true Lord Shah Mustansirbillah.
33. Our true Lord Shah Abd Salam.
34. Our true Lord Shah Garib Mirza.
35. Our true Lord Shah Budr Ali.
36. Our true Lord Shah Murad Mirza.
37. Our true Lord Shah Zulficar Ali.
38. Our true Lord Shah Nurudin Ali.
39. Our true Lord Shah Sayyad Khalilullah Ali.
40. Our true Lord Shah Nizar.
41. Our true Lord Shah Sayyad Ali.
42. Our true Lord Shah Sa Hassan Ali.
43. Our true Lord Shah Kassam Ali.
44. Our true Lord Shah Abdul Hassan Ali.
45. Our true Lord Shah Khalilullah Ali.
46. Our true Lord Shah Hassan Ali.
47. Our true Lord Shah Aga Ali Shah.
48. Our true Lord Shah Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah the Giver.
32. Recognize him, the present owner of the Imamate, the Master of the Age, the Imam, the guide of the Guides, the(Imam) in Power, Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah, the Giver, the Reliever of innumerable and crores of persons, the present owner of the Imamate. O Shah accept my supplications in Thy presence by virtue of the privilege Thou possesseth, O our Master Aga Sultan Mahomed Shah.
* * * * * * *
33. This Doowa is practically the same as the one in Aga Khan I's time and Aga Khan II's time, except the necessary addition of the Aga Khan for the time being.

This "Holy Du'a" was in use for several decades (from the time of Aga Khan I all the way up until 1956). It was not some temporary fixture of Nizari Ismailism. It was around for a very, very long time, and all the Nizari Ismailis believed in the Aga Khan as being Allah prior to at least 1956. It was Aga Khan I who designed the "Holy Du'a." Since 1956, when a new "Holy Du'a" was introduced by Aga Khan III (which is the one all Nizari Ismailis recite today), near the end of his life, interpretations of the Imam have varied since then, but, quite large numbers of Nizari Ismailis still consider him to be the same as Allah. No Nizari Ismaili will deny that the Imam is certainly treated like Allah, and Nizari Ismailis can be seen bowing in front of him even when he visits a Nizari Ismaili community to give "deedar.: Furthermore, the Aga Khan has purposely not provided a clear explanation on what is meant by "mazhar," which is a term that has traditionally meant "manifestation" or "copy" - and not "locus of manifestation" or the interpretation you're giving, which is solely your own interpretation. Here is the exact text from the 1975 Ismailia conference, for the record: "The Imam to be explained as 'mazhar' of God, and the relationship between God and the Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication from God to man."


5. Do you deny that the Imam is shown as divine / as Allah in multiple Nizari Ismaili ginans (hymns) that continue to be recited in jamatkhana? Here is one ginan from Ismaili.net, for example, but there are many that can be found (, if one has the time) where it says that Ali and Allah are the same. This ginan is known as Moman Chetamni and I have seen Nizari Ismailis mention it before, so, it's well known even.

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Eji Te satguru sahebjieay sreva kari

Shukrana kidha ati apaar
Ali ne te Allah orakhiyo
Te mahain shak na aanio lagaar Cheto.....

So Momins, serve that Lord and be thankful for Ali is Allah and do not ever doubt it.

6. I don't know any Sunnis or Shias who believe in intercession except of the kind where one person asks - in-person - for another to pray for him/her. I realize that there are Muslims out there who believe in intercession of the Unseen or in calling on the Prophet or the Imams for things that they should really be asking for from Allah instead, but, these are the minority. I have yet to see a Sunni or Shia actually say "Ya Ali..." or "Ya Muhammad..." and ask for something like "give me the best of health" or "give me hidayat" or other things that really only Allah has the ability to provide. I've only seen Nizari Ismailis make supplications like these, and they do it often and regularly - rarely invoking Allah instead of their Imams (and perhaps because they believe there's no difference).


7. I would like to share with you the point of view from an older Nizari Ismaili I've run into, named Samir, that shows just how far you're going to try and make Nizari Ismailism look closer to orthodox Islam and look closer to something that it absolutely isn't whatsoever.

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A new breed of Ismailis are emerging at this time in our history. This new breed disregards the divinity of the Imam, yet for some beguiled reason they seem to preach their loyalty to him and his words. This is one of the most perverse phenomenon I have encountered to this day, as it presents a somewhat quasi-Ismaili who preaches loyalty to the faith and yet has no attachment to it.

The spread of Ismailis who explicitly pronounce their loyalty to the faith, and yet implicitly consider the Imam like an ordinary person has got to stop. May I remind you that the Ismaili faith, did not start with Ismail, nor did it start with Ali. Ali was the first Imam, we all agree, but he himself got the Imamat at the demise of Abu Talib, his father.

A corpus of material in the farman book "Kalam e Imam e Mubeen" is far different than borrowing individual farmans and books. Going to Mukhi Saeb in your Jamat Khane and asking him to hand over to you a book is not a possibility in many areas of the world. There is no published volume by the councils, or available by local Mukhi Sahebs, that is as extensive and accurate as the "Kalam e Imam e Mubeen" corpus.

The faith of Ismailism has its foundations in the message of the Pirs. There have been 50 Pirs since the time our holy Prophet Muhammad. Those 50 Pirs worked to convert individuals with one goal in mind, and that was to show the Imam of the time. No Pir has ever said that the Imam is not Allah, God, or the Creator. On the contrary, if you read Hak tu Pak tu, you see that Ali is denoted as holy, pure, the king, the understanding, the maintainer, the beneficent, the first and last, the ultimate judge, the Originator, the fashioner, and the Creator. Can you use these attributes for an ordinary mortal? Take the Ginan Allah ek Kasam Sabuka, where it says that the progeny of Ali is Islam Shah the king. Allah is that Imam. The list can go on and on, but if you read the Ginans you will come to realise that the Pir has meticulously centered the faith around himself. Repeatedly in the Ginans, the Pir has exuded his identity as being that of Brahma, which represents the original manifestation of the Prophet Muhammad’s Noor.

Pir Sadardin did not seem the least bit reluctant to affirm his identity as the manifestation of the Prophet himself. That intransigence view by the Pirs has not changed over time and is further reiterated in the Farmans of Pir Aga Ali Shah, the father of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah.

Pir Sadardin created a new dua, and like the Torah, Bible, and Quran, the dua was a complete summary of the tenants of the faith. It declared the foundation upon which the follower were to adhere to. Pir Sadardin was not a Pir simply for the Ismailis of the Indian subcontinent. As a Pir he was responsible for all the active missionary work being done in various countries. As I mentioned in another response, individuals such as Nasir Khusraw, who was considered to have converted a large majority Ismailis from Central Asia, would have had to report to the Pir of his time. In this case the Pir during the time of Nasir Khusraw was Pir Noordin who was travelling to India in 1082 AD. Nasir Khusraw was not a Pir, and should never be given the title of Pir by any Ismaili. He was a dai, and an ordinary mortal such as you and I.

May I remind you that the Ismaili faith has no real tenants other than the statement Ali Allah. This statement alone carries the unique distinction between Pir Sadardin’s doctrine and the rest of Islam. First of all the majority of Shias do not agree that Ali is Allah. They agree that Ali was the rightful successor of the Prophet, but a vast majority don’t believe that he was God manifest. Go back to their declaration of faith as it says, there is no god by God, Muhammad is the messenger of God, and Ali is the friend of God. Sunni Muslims acknowledge only God and his Prophet. Shias go further to say that after the Prophet, Ali (implying the Imams after Ali as well) is the friend of Allah. Pir Sadardin neither omitted Ali from his declaration nor did he accept Ali to be simply Allah’s friend.

He made two very unique and clear statements:
1. Ali Allah – meaning Ali is Allah;......and to further reiterated the meaning, he maintained:
2. Ali sahi Allah – meaning Ali is truly Allah. Both these statements were used interchangeably, but had the very same meaning.

The message was that Ali, or in this case the present living Imam, is Allah in the manifest form.  In our tasbhi we say: Oh Ali, Oh Hazer Imam...do such and such for us. In the dua we say, there is no hero except Ali, there is no sword except Zulfikar. If you say that there is no hero except Allah, there is no sword except Zulfikar then again you are suggesting that Ali is Allah.

Either way, you are grossly mistaken if you advocate that Ali is not Allah. If that is your conviction than there is no real point to Nizari Ismailism existing because this faith is centered around that principle. We as Nizari Ismailis have our teachings from that fundamental principle. From that conviction we see the Imam as the manifestation of Allah. His words are to be obeyed, his payments are to be paid, and his name should be glorified. That is essence of the Munajat. The Munajat is not saying that may the Imam have a kingdom just for the sake of making him feel good, it is saying that may the Imam have the kingdom of the earth.To frivolously advocate that Das Avatar is a Hindu creation is a poor act of judgment. Das Avatar is historical text of evolution, from Fish, to primitive species, to cavemen, to modern man. Das Avatar is the story of mankind, our evolution in juxtaposition with the God’s manifestation. To treat the Das Avatar as un-Islamic is to deny the very essence of Islam. Islam is a natural religion in that it allows reasoning and scientific inquiry to be part of its doctrine. Then the evolution of mankind as understood by Das Avatar is a brilliant fusion of scientific inquiry and religious doctrine.In Islam we don’t believe that there is a dichotomy between science and religion. Science in our faith is simply a quest for understanding that which already exists. Science opens windows which give us better control over the natural environment and also helps us to understand our world better. So if you don’t believe that Ali is Allah then you are in the wrong club. People who don’t believe Ali is Allah should naturally gravitate to being Sunni or Shia Ithnasheries.

Nizari Ismailism is not for those who consider Ali as a leader, a friend, a pope, or a quazi-divine. Nizari Ismailism is the total acknowledgment that Ali ibn Abu Talib is manifestation of God on Earth. His Noor, or rather his soul, is eternal, and will continue to be present in this world to guide mankind and to act as a proof of divine presence.If you want to remain as an Ismaili then you must understand that our doctrine is not found in the Torah, Bible, or Quran. We have been given a dua by Pir Sadardin which clearly outlined what he felt his followers, from throughout the world, should adhere to. That dua was not exclusively for the Indian speaking followers. It was a dua made universal for all the followers of the faith. Unfortunately many Ismailis around the world complained that they were being harassed in their respective countries because of their belief. Many orthodox Muslims would label them as non-believers, kafirs, and blasphemers. They would run to the Imam of the time to ask for a change in the dua to make things better for them and their neighbours. There are two things wrong with that:

-The problem of one faith penalizing another faith is not an excuse to change the doctrine. The aggressor ought to be scrutinized by law, which is the responsibility of the government.

-Secondly why are those individuals considered the aggressors and we the oppressed? Why don’t we be aggressive and tell them that they are preaching blasphemy and that they should convert to Ismailism?Losing the old dua of Pir Sadardin was one of the biggest mistakes in our faith. We lost our tenants, our history, and our principles. But all these elements were born from the parent principle which is Ali Allah. If Ali Allah was in our current dua then there would be no need for any other explanations. Some individuals would argue that alyyullah means the same as Ali Allah. Firstly, if they meant the same thing then why change it? Secondly, may I may remind you that Ali Allah and Alyyllah are both statement in Arabic. Why was it necessary to remove Ali Allah in the first place if the language was the same?

Remember, that Juma Bagat and many prominent Ismailis went to Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and requested to add just one word in dua to make things better. They suggested that instead of saying Ali Allah that the Imam should approve Ali Waliyyun Allah, meaning Ali is the friend of Allah. The Imam’s response was that they must drop the whole dua if they wish to alter that statement. He said it was their ignorance and not that Ali Allah was wrong.So here the Imam is telling us that Ali Allah is not wrong, that without it the whole dua is of no significance. If the whole dua is of no significance because of one statement then Ali Allah is considered to be the essence of the Ismaili doctrine.I encourage you to understand your faith from the context of its conception. Here is the excerpt from a book published by the Ismailia council on this:



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Don’t throw in the “hocus pocus” of moving with the times This is a statement which has been severely abused by many Ismailis to mean that we can simply discard the past. The past is needed in order to make sense of the present. The past ought to be respected, not ignored. There is not one farman where Imam has denied his divinity. Why would, after all I’ve said till now, the Imam say that he is not God and that anyone who thinks so is committing an act of blasphemy? If that was the case then he’s undermining his own authority, his own ancestors. There is no document, whatsoever, where the Imam has made such a statement.

Sincerely,
Samir Noorali

8. I would like to highlight a second time that Samir shares in his letter the text of a speech made by Aga Khan III to his followers, that I would like everyone to read:




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This speech is published by the Ismailia Association, I believe. I can try and ask Samir for the exact reference. In any case, many of the elders of the Nizari Ismaili community know about it and could help you find the actual book that contains it. I promise you that I'm not lying. This is the real deal, Khalil.

Edited by Ruwayd, 08 May 2012 - 06:57 PM.