384 replies to this topic

[Abdullah_A]

Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more?  Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj?  I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present.

[AlgerianShia]

Abdullah_A, on Jul 4 2009, 06:10 AM, said:

Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more?  Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj?  I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present.

i cant believe they think that "millionare" agha khan is an imam....

[Aabiss_Shakari]

They offer prayer facing any side which means they do not necessarily face Kaba for offering their prayers. While having fast, they can eat and drink even and when questioned they say that Fast is of your tongue, eyes and limbs not of your stomach.

[real0019]

Abdullah_A, on Jul 4 2009, 06:10 AM, said:

Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more?  Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj?  I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present.

Good question. Today, there are two surviving sects of Ismailis: Nizaris (followers of Aga Khan IV) and Tayyibis. The latter group adheres to the same fiqh developed by Qadhi al-Nu'man as observed by Ismailis of the Fatimid era. Tayyibis don't, as far as I know, hold ghulati beliefs (though the recent chief da'is of the mainstream Tayyibis have claimed infallibility). As for the Nizaris, they abandoned the Shari'a since the Alamut era. In the past, Nizaris have generally held ghulati beliefs regarding their imam. Today, as Nizaris are becoming more mainstream, these exaggerated beliefs are being systematically thrown out.

[Abdullah_A]

  



So does that mean nikah is valid with Tayyibis?

[real0019]

I don't see why not, unless the Tayyibi holds hatred toward our Imams or exaggerated beliefs toward their imams.

[Taalib Shivraj]

Salaaam Alaykum Brothers and sisters,

Just a few questions regarding Ismailis if anyone of you can answer, that would really be helpful.

1. Do Ismailis consider themselves Muslim even though they obviously break some of the rules of the Quran? But, I was spaeking to an Ismaili, and I think he was trying to get at me at saying that our Imams have the right to change the rules of the Quran. Is that true? I mean, if our twelve Imams did that, would that be considered wrong?

2. When did the sect of Ismaili come into play? At what time in History? Who was it's founder? Where was he/ she from? Are their Imams descendants of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)?

[Dar'ul_Islam]

Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 12:10 AM, said:

Salaaam Alaykum Brothers and sisters,

Just a few questions regarding Ismailis if anyone of you can answer, that would really be helpful.

1. Do Ismailis consider themselves Muslim even though they obviously break some of the rules of the Quran? But, I was spaeking to an Ismaili, and I think he was trying to get at me at saying that our Imams have the right to change the rules of the Quran. Is that true? I mean, if our twelve Imams did that, would that be considered wrong?

2. When did the sect of Ismaili come into play? At what time in History? Who was it's founder? Where was he/ she from? Are their Imams descendants of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)?

1. They do consider themselves Muslim. To them, the Imam's job is to interpret the religion for the time - to them the Qur'an is not the book of all time, rather that time. Our view of the Imamah (as well as Mustali Ismailis AKA Bhoris) is that the Imam perfectly preserves the Sunnah of Rasulullah .

2. Ismailis came into existence after the death of the Sixth Imam, Imam as Sadiq . They think his eldest son (who predeceased him) was the next Imam (or link of it) so their Seventh imam is Muhammad ibn Ismaili ibn Jafar. Their Imams i think are descendants... Ismailis split off later at the end of the Fatimid empire between the Nizaris (known as Aga Khanis today) and the Mustalis (the several groups of Bhoris today).

My limited knowledge.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 12:10 AM, said:

Salaaam Alaykum Brothers and sisters,

Just a few questions regarding Ismailis if anyone of you can answer, that would really be helpful.

1. Do Ismailis consider themselves Muslim even though they obviously break some of the rules of the Quran? But, I was spaeking to an Ismaili, and I think he was trying to get at me at saying that our Imams have the right to change the rules of the Quran. Is that true? I mean, if our twelve Imams did that, would that be considered wrong?

They consider themselves to be muslims. EXCUSE ME Where Our Imamain broke the rules of Quran?

Quote

2. When did the sect of Ismaili come into play? At what time in History? Who was it's founder? Where was he/ she from? Are their Imams descendants of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)?

They originated from Hazrat Ismail (a.s) who was eldest son of Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) and died during the life time of Imam (a.s). Later on the Ismailites followed the decendants of Hazrat Ismail (a.s) as their Imams while Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) announced time and again that Imam Musa Kazim (a.s) is his (a.s) successor.

[Redrum]

Is Tayyibi a synonym of the Bohras or are Bohras just a part of a larger group called Tayyibis?

[Ali Huzaifa]

Redrum, on Jul 5 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

Is Tayyibi a synonym of the Bohras or are Bohras just a part of a larger group called Tayyibis?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Dawoodi_Bohra

[Firoz Ali]

Prince Hussain and Princess Khaliya with His Eminence Sayyed Mohammad Musawi

http://img267.images...dding5lad6.jpg/

http://www.theroyalf...06-a-11187.html

[real0019]

Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 12:10 AM, said:

Salaaam Alaykum Brothers and sisters,

Just a few questions regarding Ismailis if anyone of you can answer, that would really be helpful.

1. Do Ismailis consider themselves Muslim even though they obviously break some of the rules of the Quran? But, I was spaeking to an Ismaili, and I think he was trying to get at me at saying that our Imams have the right to change the rules of the Quran. Is that true? I mean, if our twelve Imams did that, would that be considered wrong?

2. When did the sect of Ismaili come into play? At what time in History? Who was it's founder? Where was he/ she from? Are their Imams descendants of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)?

1. Yes, Nizari Ismailis do. We Imamis do not hold such a belief because only a rasul can alter the Shari'a. The Imams of Ahl al-Bait and the Ismaili line of imamate up to Hasan 'ala Dhikrhisalam did not abrogate the Shari'a. Tayyibi Ismailis also do not believe in abrogation after the Holy Prophet as I pointed out earlier.

2. Possibly during the lifetime or after the death of Imam as-Sadiq . Since Isma'il b. Ja'far already passed away, the 'Ismailis' followed his son, Muhammad b. Isma'il. The only well-known person hold this belief was Abu'l Khattab, who was originally a companion of Imam as-Sadiq , but later went astray. I personally do not believe the Fatimid imams were actual descendents of Muhammad b. Isma'il for various reasons and I certainly do not believe the Aqa Khans are descendents of the Prophet   .

[YahyaX]

Nope.

[Taalib Shivraj]

Aabiss_Shakari, on Jul 5 2009, 03:43 AM, said:

They consider themselves to be muslims. EXCUSE ME Where Our Imamain broke the rules of Quran?



They originated from Hazrat Ismail (a.s) who was eldest son of Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) and died during the life time of Imam (a.s). Later on the Ismailites followed the decendants of Hazrat Ismail (a.s) as their Imams while Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) announced time and again that Imam Musa Kazim (a.s) is his (a.s) successor.

Salaam Alaykum,

Sorry, maybe you misunderstood me, I didn't mean to say that our Imams did change the rules of the Quran. My question was that did they have the right the change the rules of the quran? And thanks for that informaton, but can you please give me a couple of sources where it was said that Imam Jaffar as sadiq (A.S) had announced Imam Kazim (A.S) as his next successor? I mean, wasn't it Allah's choice, and not the Imam's choice?

[-=Sajjad=-]

Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

Salaam Alaykum,

Sorry, maybe you misunderstood me, I didn't mean to say that our Imams did change the rules of the Quran. My question was that did they have the right the change the rules of the quran?

I don't think they would even want to change the rules, let alone having the right to.. however changing the understanding, and ensuring proper application of those rules is another thing.

Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

And thanks for that informaton, but can you please give me a couple of sources where it was said that Imam Jaffar as sadiq (A.S) had announced Imam Kazim (A.S) as his next successor? I mean, wasn't it Allah's choice, and not the Imam's choice?

you make it sound as if the Imam's choice conflicts with Allah's ..or do you want some loud voice from the sky announcing the next Imam?

anyways, here's some hadith:

[Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Sa'eed narrated from Abu Abdullah Ja'far bin Abdullah al-Muhammadi from al-Hasan bin Ali bin Fadhdhal from Safwan bin Yahya that Ishaq bin Ammar as-Sayrafi had said:]

"Once my brother Isma'eel bin Ammar described his faith and beliefs to Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq by saying: "I witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..." Then he declared his faith in the Imams, one after the other until he reached Imam Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq and then he said: "...and I witness that Isma'eel is the Imam after you."

Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq said: "No, Isma'eel is not the Imam after me."

[Biharul Anwar, vol.47 p.261]
------
[Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Sa'eed narrated from al-Qassim bin Muhammad bin al-Hasan bin Hazim from Obayss bin Hisham from Durust bin Abu Mansoor that al-Waleed bin Subayh had said:]

"There was an argument between me and a man called Abdul Jaleel. He said that Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq had appointed his son Isma'eel as the Imam after him. I told Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq of that. He (the Imam) said: "O Waleed, by Allah, it is not so. If I have done, I should have appointed the proper one." He mentioned the name of Abul Hasan Musa (al-Kadhim) ."

[Biharul Anwar, vol.48 p.22, Awalim al-Uloom, vol. 21 p.43]
------
[Abu Sulayman Ahmad bin Hawtha narrated from Ibraheem bin Iss~haq an-Nahawandi from Abdullah bin Hammad al-Ansari that Safwan bin Mihran al-Jammal had said:]

"Mansoor bin Hazim and Abu Ayyoob al-Khazzaz said to Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq while I was present with them:

"May Allah make us die for you! One does not know when death comes. Who is our Imam after you?"

He said: "If death comes, your man will be this." He patted his son Musa, who was then five years old. Abdullah bin Ja'far was also present in the house on that day."

[Hilyatul Abrar, vol.2 p.289]
------
[Ibn Abi Najran reported on the authority of Isa b. 'Abd Allah b. Muhammad b. Umar b. Ali b. Abi Talib, on the authority of Abu Abd Allah Ja'far, peace be on him:]

I (i.e. 'Isa b. Muhammad) asked (Ja'far): "If something happened - may God not make me see such a thing - who should I follow?"

(Ja'far) pointed to his son, Musa.

"If anything happened to Musa, who should I follow?" I asked.

"His son," he replied.

"If anything happened to his son?"

"Then his son."

"If something happened to him," I went on, "and he left a big brother and a small son?"

"His son; it is always thus," he answered.

[Kitab al-Irshad]
------
[Narrated from Salman al-Farsi:]

The Messenger of God (saww) said to me, “God has not sent any prophet or messenger without appointing twelve chiefs for them.” I said, “Oh Messenger of God! I had learned this from the people of the Book.” The Messenger of God (saww) asked me, “Oh Salmān! Do you know whom God has chosen as the twelve chiefs of the nation after me?” I replied, “God and His Messenger know better.” The Prophet (saww) said, "Oh Salmān! God created me from the prime of His light. He called me and I obeyed Him. Then He created ‘Alī from my light. He called him and ‘Alī obeyed Him. Then He created Fātimah from my light and the light of ‘Alī. He called Fātimah and she obeyed Him. Then God created Hasan from me, ‘Alī, and Fātimah. He called him and Hasan obeyed Him. Then God created Husayn from me, ‘Alī, and Fātimah. He called him and Husayn obeyed Him.

Then God named us with (five names derived from) five of His names. God is Māhmūd (the Praised) and I am Muhammad. God is ‘Alī (the High) and he is ‘Alī. God is Fātir (the Creator) and she is Fātimah. God is Dhul-Ihsān (the Bountiful) and this is Hasan. God is Muhsin (the Beneficent) and this is Husayn.

Then God created from us and from Husayn nine Imāms. He called them and they obeyed Him. All of this happened before God created the skies, the earths, the angels, and humankind. We were lights who praised God, listened to Him, and obeyed Him.
.
.
.
I asked, “Oh Messenger of God! Is it possible to believe in them without knowing their names and their lineage?” The Prophet (saww) replied, “No! Oh Salmān!” I asked, “Oh Messenger of God! Then how can I believe in them while I only know up to Husayn ?” The Prophet (saww) replied:

(After Husayn is his son) ‘Alī ibn Husayn , Master of the Worshipers; then his son, Muhammad ibn ‘Alī , who will rip open every field of knowledge from the first to the last of the prophets and messengers; then his son, Ja’far ibn Muhammad , who is the truthful tongue of God; then his son, Mūsā ibn Ja’far , who will suppress his anger in the way of God; then his son, ‘Alī ibn Mūsā , who is pleased with the orders of God; then his son, Muhammad ibn ‘Alī , the chosen one from the creation of God; then his son, ‘Alī ibn Muhammad , the guide to God; then his son, Hasan ibn ‘Alī , the guardian and keeper of the secrets of God; and then his son, Muhammad ibn Hasan (atf), Mahdi, the guide, the Qāim, and the announcer of the rights of God.

[Dalail al-Imāmah. p.447]

[Jondab_Azdi]

Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 6 2009, 04:41 AM, said:

Salaam Alaykum,

but can you please give me a couple of sources where it was said that Imam Jaffar as sadiq (A.S) had announced Imam Kazim (A.S) as his next successor?

ÃóÍúãóÏõ Èúäõ ÅöÏúÑöíÓó Úóäú ãõÍóãøóÏö Èúäö ÚóÈúÏö ÇáúÌóÈøóÇÑö Úóäú ÕóÝúæóÇäó Úóäö ÇÈúäö ãõÓúßóÇäó Úóäú ÓõáóíúãóÇäó Èúäö ÎóÇáöÏò ÞóÇáó ÏóÚóÇ ÃóÈõæ ÚóÈúÏö Çááøóåö ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÃóÈóÇ ÇáúÍóÓóäö ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) íóæúãÇð æó äóÍúäõ ÚöäúÏóåõ ÝóÞóÇáó áóäóÇ Úóáóíúßõãú ÈöåóÐóÇ Ýóåõæó æó Çááøóåö ÕóÇÍöÈõßõãú ÈóÚúÏöí

Ahmad ibn Idris has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from ibn Muskan from Sulayman ibn Khalid who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah one day called abu al-Hassan while we were in his presence and said to us, ‘You must take hold of this man. He, by Allah, will be your Master after me.’”

^Sahih a/c to Majlisi and Bahbudi.

w/s

[89jghur32]

lionking, on 03 August 2009 - 11:26 PM, said:

The monster who fought for and founded Pakistan was an Aga Khani ismaili.

False.  He was a Twelver Shia...he was born into an Ismaili family, but converted in later life to Imamiyyah.  Although, he wasn't a practicing Muslim.

[JawzofDETH]

ninjaslim, on 18 August 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

False.  He was a Twelver Shia...he was born into an Ismaili family, but converted in later life to Imamiyyah.  Although, he wasn't a practicing Muslim.

Yup, thats what I've read too.

I want to know from a real bohra if like other Isma'ilis
they believe in a sijistani-style pantheism doctrine or
are they different.

[shoelace]

Fakhruddin, on 30 September 2009 - 06:05 AM, said:

To all the above people who, say bad about Bohras. This is a true instance and many more, of current dai and previous dai of Bohra.
We are the true muslims and Dai is Mamluk of Mohammed and Ale Mohammed and Imam uz Zaman. And each individual bohri is Mamluk of Mohammed and Ale Mohammed, Imam uz Zaman and Dai uz Zaman.

Our dai's have composed such a madeh and munaajats, that is unmatchable. famous marasia of Ya Sayyed da Shohadaee, written by 51st Dai Syedna Taher saifuddin are written on Zarih of Imam Hussain (a.s).

There are many remarkable achievements and Islamic culture we follow which is difficult to describe on this forum.
I can share details.

Following is the first hand account of lives touched by our current Dai 52nd Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS)




Interviews of people whose lives have been touched by the grace of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb, TUS


Following interview of Bahen Jumana Vasi, Dubai, by Sakina Sh Noman Miyajiwala and Mudar Patherya

I was 18, carefree, rebellious, outgoing and member of the Ithna Ashara sect when I met Saifuddin Vasi at Teheran in 1969. We married a year later following my ritualistic misaaq. I will be honest; I did not believe in it. We stayed in Iran for three years; during this period, a number of people impressed upon me the teachings of the Dawoodi Bohra faith including Syedi Mazoon e Dawat, who advised my husband to move out of Iran as there was no mumineen environment in that country to nurse my faith. We moved to Dubai in 1973.

It was in Dubai that I attended my first mumineen majlis during Ashara. Something happened…I felt an inexplicable stirring. Then a few days later, on the night of Ashura 1394 (2.1.1974) I had a dream, which turned out to be the turning point of my life. I saw myself sitting in an open ground in Dubai with other mumineen waiting for Imam Husain to arrive. Imam Husain!

Suddenly I saw ‘Imam Husain’ on a white horse riding towards the gathering. He kept nearing and when I could finally see clearly, it was none other but Maulana Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb (T.U.S.). He rode, looked at me and went out of my sight.

I awoke dazed and in denial. Here I was, believed in none but Aqa Husain and I was seeing him impersonated by the Dai of the Dawoodi Bohras, a faith that I had consistently resisted. I was confused. Show me the right path immediately, I demanded of Allah! Yes, I demanded.

I didn’t have to wait long. Three days later, unfolded Dream Two. And this time I round I saw a wizened and venerable old man – I identified this as Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb (AQ) as seen in the photographs on the walls – who told me “Aa sahee raasto chhey”. I awoke, attended to my daughter, slept again, only to see Muqaddas Maula emerge in my dream again to tell me “Aa Dawat-aj sahee raasto chhey!”

Saifuddin and I went to Huzurala immediately after. Even before either of us had even spoken a word, he looked up and said, “Hu tamara khwab ma aayo hatho ne? Hawe tamne kai shaq chhey? Hawe to tamne shaq nathi ne?”

My first reaction: I wept. Not wept, sobbed. Not sobbed, but put my head on his qadam and purged myself emotionally. I could hear people saying ‘Su karo chho, behen?’, ‘Utho, behen!’ and ‘Aam na thai, behen’ but Huzurala asked them to let things be. ‘Ehne rehva dav’, I heard him say.

When I looked up, others around me in Saifee Mahal were fishing for their handkerchiefs. Maula asked my daughter’s name. I replied ‘Tasneem’. He replied: “Naam baraaber chhey”. Huzurala then instructed Shaikh Ebrahim Yamani to record my dream for the benefit of the daawat archives. On the following day, Syedi Mazoon Saheb told us that Huzurala had mentioned my dream and my ‘ikhlaas’ over thaal.

Since that day in January 1974, I have been a devout believer.

Note. Jumanaben’s great grand father was killed while defending the shrine of Imam Husain in 1801, following which her family name became ‘Shaheedi’.

Copy ends

can u please translate it in english?

[BintAlHoda]

They're Muslim enough, especially Bohoras who do practice salat, etc. Definitely they have had an active role in Islamic history . I don't think it's really an issue unless one is considering intermarrying in which case one needs to consider carefully.

There is a whole book of Al-Kafi on the succesion to Imam Sadiq (A), you should read it

[Frosty]

Aabiss_Shakari, on 04 July 2009 - 10:17 AM, said:

They offer prayer facing any side which means they do not necessarily face Kaba for offering their prayers.

Is Allah (saw) not the Lord of east and west? Is it not ok to pray in whatever direction if you do not know which direction is facing the Kaba?

[culturei]

if they say "La Ilaha Illa Allah, Mohammed Rasulu Allah" then they are muslims

[Jondab_Azdi]

Ayat. Muhammad Hussain Najafi mentioned Aga Khanis (i.e. those who are munkir of dharuriyat ad-deen such as salat, saum etc) as Kafir. Ref: Qawaneen ash-Sharia Vol. 1

w/s

[saheb]

The Ismailis I know apart from bohora will not be regarded as muslims. Because they do not pray and do not fast. So I think it is not proper to marry or eat their food.