71 replies to this topic

[leb_cool]

  

moved to http://www.shiachat....topic=234965811

Edited by leb_cool, 28 June 2009 - 09:42 AM.

[leb_cool]

  

First of all, I know its a sensitive topic when you talking about Maraje3 and 3olama, but in my opinion its important to know who is really your marja3 and why did you choosed him.

Now i follow Sistani , but Previously, I was moqaled of Fadlallah, and I wanted to know why a lot of maraje3 are opposing him for a lot of idea.

I did search for a month or two and decide to not follow him anymore because of his 2in7iraf or radicalism in 3akida and a lot of fatwa.

This is a site, which i consider very important to the Investigator Sayed Jaafar Mortada El 3ameli :

www.mezan.net

You will find a lot of stuff said or written by Fadllallah and he (sayed mortada) oppose all of them and its very well explained,

those are exemple of what fadllallah said or written

1- ÇáäÈí (Õ) áÇ íÚÑÝ Çáãåã ãä ÇáÃåã.                        http://mezan.net/Boo...les/51/r51.html

2-ÇáÎØà ÛíÑ ÇáãÞÕæÏ ááäÈí (Õ).                                                 http://mezan.net/Boo...les/52/r52.html

3- Ü ÇáãÔÇÚÑ ÇáÓáÈíÉ ááäÈí ÑÈãÇ ÊÊÍæá Åáì ÚÞÏÉ.                                     http://mezan.net/Boo...les/57/r57.html

4-Ü ÇáÎáÇÝ ÈÚÏ ÇáäÈí áã íÖÑ ÈÇáÅÓáÇã.                                              http://mezan.net/IND...hyo3_imama.html

5- ÇáäÈí íãæÊ ÍÊÝ ÃäÝå                                                          http://mezan.net/sou...ds1/9/r009.html                      (audio available)

6- íÔßß ÈÔÌÇÚÉ ÇáÅãÇã Úáí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.                                          http://mezan.net/sounds_files/is3.html                  (audio available)



I have posted link for all subject, and there is a lot more, I Just would like to know your opinion about hiim

[lotfilms]

I choose him because he's honest and straightforward about the things I ask him.

For instance, a certain Marja (no need to mention any names) was asked "Is Dua Tawassul authentic?"
That Marja's answer was "It is in our books."

What kind of answer is that??

On the other hand, Fadhallah is honest enough to admit things that other scholars know, but don't say (unless you ask them in person), like there are gaps in the chain of Dua Kumayl, etc.

I think the major difference between Fadhallah and most other scholars (for the most part) is that he says things publically that others don't say, but they know.  For example, I asked a certain person (again, not need to mention any names) in person why he says and advocates "Ali wali Allah" in the adhan/aqamah when it is a bidah?  He response was because he did not want to create fitnah in the community.

I feel that answers like these are not beneficial to our community tbh.

Of course, Fadhallah has a couple major differences with other scholars, such his his view on tawassul, but otherwise, he's really not different from the others.

Of course, there are certain scholars who hold such ghulut beliefs that they would have been kicked out of the hawzas by the early Qummis a long time ago, but they are a minority tbh.


In conclusion, I feel a certain other Marja may be more knowledgeable than Fadhallah, but I want someone who is honest with me, even if my question is troublesome or controversail; I like him because he gives me proper answers, not answers like the ones I mentioned earlier in this post.

wa salam

[mansab.jafri]

Our maraja like Sistani (r.a.), Lankarani (r.a.), Tabrizi (r.a.), Sadiq Ruhani (r.a.), ETC., have said that one who denies Ziyarat 'Ashura cannot be prayed behind.  Period.  And Fadhlullah is one who believes that Ziyarat 'Ashura is not authentic.  Period.  Tabrizi (r.a.) declared him a deviant and that is illegal to cooperate with him.

It is an absolute insult to Madhab al-Haq some of the things which are on that website.  This man, who was never given ijaza for ijtihad, has changed many fundamental beliefs of the Rafidha.  He falsely deems weak the traditions where our Imam (a.s.) curses Abu Bak'r and 'Umar.  See here some of his defenders trying to weaken the traditions and exposing their love of Shiekhein:
http://www.shiachat....topic=234965737

He has changed the tafseer of famous Ayaat revealed for Ahlul'bayt (a.s.).

See here:  

http://arabic.bayyna...s/fikr390Q1.htm

For many reasons, many people have rejected him.  Including many great authorities from our madhab.

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri, 28 June 2009 - 11:29 AM.

[Hassassin]

mansab.jafri, on Jun 28 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

Our maraja like Sistani (r.a.), Lankarani (r.a.), Tabrizi (r.a.), Sadiq Ruhani (r.a.), ETC., have said that one who denies Ziyarat 'Ashura cannot be prayed behind.  Period.  And Fadhlullah is one who believes that Ziyarat 'Ashura is not authentic.  Period.  Tabrizi (r.a.) declared him a deviant and that is illegal to cooperate with him.

Where exactly do they have the authority & evidence to make such a ridiculous claim?  Ziyarat is not a fundamental of the religion.  Fadlallah is one of the ONLY maraja who actually uses the Qu'ran to create law, not weak, inauthentic hadith like the rest of these maraja do.  He is the only one out there conducting constant ijtihad, always researching, always perfecting.
The rest of our maraja need to engage in some self-reflection.  Just because you have a religious degree and title does not make you some divine superman.  
Fadlallah is one of the only ones who is true & sincere in his actions and words, most other maraja are cowards & posers who will get their heads cut by the Imam(as)

[lotfilms]

mansab.jafri, on Jun 28 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

Our maraja like Sistani (r.a.), Lankarani (r.a.), Tabrizi (r.a.), Sadiq Ruhani (r.a.), ETC., have said that one who denies Ziyarat 'Ashura cannot be prayed behind.  Period.  And Fadhlullah is one who believes that Ziyarat 'Ashura is not authentic.  Period.

There is a difference between denying something and saying that the modern day version of something has been altered.  

mansab.jafri, on Jun 28 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

Tabrizi (r.a.) declared him a deviant and that is illegal to cooperate with him.

Why didn't his office tell us this during his lifetime?

mansab.jafri, on Jun 28 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

This man, who was never given ijaza for ijtihad, has changed many fundamental beliefs of the Rafidha.

If you feel he's wrong, then bring it up with him.  Or better yet, don't follow him.

mansab.jafri, on Jun 28 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

He falsely deems weak the traditions where our Imam (a.s.) curses Abu Bak'r and 'Umar.  See here some of his defenders trying to weaken the traditions and exposing their love of Shiekhein:
http://www.shiachat....topic=234965737

lol those hadiths are weak have been discussed many times.  You will break all the rules just to "prove" Ziyarat Ashura is 100% authentic and those hadiths about cursing those two are authentic.  Even stranger, you equate weakening hadiths with loving certain people.  Once again, you're making assumptions and making connections where there are none.

mansab.jafri, on Jun 28 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

He has changed the tafseer of famous Ayaat revealed for Ahlul'bayt (a.s.).

What's your reference that it was revealed for Ahlul Bayt?

wa salam

[John Al-Ameli]

I was a follower of Sayyed Fadlallah but now I follow Sayyed Khamenei

We can describe Sayyed Fadlallah with a quote from Sayyed Muhamad Bakir alSadr:

"Each student that left Najaf, the student lost something, but when Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah left Najaf, Najaf lost"

[leb_cool]

This a link where you will find handwritten and signed letter by 40 of our MARAJE3 who are against fadlallah.

http://mezan.net/dcm..._fadlallah.html

[Musa]

You should follow a marja because he is the most knowledgeable.

secondly... I am surprised mohammad baqir al sadr would say that... many Great ulema have been criticizing fadhallah in recent years. I know a lot about fadhallah is made up... but the parts that are not made up are still ridiculous.

[mansab.jafri]

Wow, this is all very embarrassing, I must say.

Quote

Where exactly do they have the authority & evidence to make such a ridiculous claim? Ziyarat is not a fundamental of the religion. Fadlallah is one of the ONLY maraja who actually uses the Qu'ran to create law, not weak, inauthentic hadith like the rest of these maraja do. He is the only one out there conducting constant ijtihad, always researching, always perfecting.
The rest of our maraja need to engage in some self-reflection. Just because you have a religious degree and title does not make you some divine superman.
Fadlallah is one of the only ones who is true & sincere in his actions and words, most other maraja are cowards & posers who will get their heads cut by the Imam(as)

Do everyone a favor, and get a basic education in Islam from your local Saturday school. Do you realize that you have defamed every Marja' in our history?  What a joke.

Quote

bismillah.gif
salam.gif

There is a difference between denying something and saying that the modern day version of something has been altered.

His words are absolute batil when we realize that throughout history up until today it has been the ijma' of the Imamiyya that this is a Hadith Qudsi and is authentic beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Quote

If you feel he's wrong, then bring it up with him. Or better yet, don't follow him.

Inshallah, I will never follow him.

Quote

lol those hadiths are weak have been discussed many times. You will break all the rules just to "prove" Ziyarat Ashura is 100% authentic and those hadiths about cursing those two are authentic. Even stranger, you equate weakening hadiths with loving certain people. Once again, you're making assumptions and making connections where there are none.

They have been proven by our maraja and since the early times, this Ziyarat was recited by the Saliheen. A person who deems this Ziyarat unauthentic doesn't have much to offer us.

As for the ahadith of Imam Baqir (a.s.) cursing your Sheikhein that you are falsely attacking, they are strong in their chains. You claim to know more than Majlisi (r.a.)? He called them Hasan aw Muwaththaq (good or dependable).  Many scholars authenticated these ahadith.

The Imami who has been praised is Hasan in transmission. The chains of the Ziyarat have praiseworthy and pious Imami narrators at the least bit. You think you know more than all of our classical and modern scholars, the companions of the A'imma (a.s.), etc.? Please go ask real scholars. Don't be like some unfortunate people who ask pseudo-scholars online about 'ilm ur-rijal. You think they will have a clue, when according to you, all our scholars like Sistani (r.a.), Tabrizi (r.a.), Sadiq Ruhani (r.a.), Lankarani (r.a.), ibn Qawlaweeh (r.a.), Sheikh Tusi (r.a.), al-Qummi (r.a.), Majlisi (r.a.), al-Khoe'i (r.a.), Najashi (r.a.), Kashi (r.a.), etc., etc., etc., are wrong? Please be a bit more logical.

Quote

What's your reference that it was revealed for Ahlul Bayt?

wa salam

Many, many traditions.  See al-Mizan fi Tafseer il-Qur'an:

http://holyquran.net...h...;sp=15&sv=0

Scroll to the end.

Also, Fadhlullah creates his own tafseer of the final verse of Surat ur-ra'd, which was also revealed for Imam 'Ali (a.s.).

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri, 30 June 2009 - 02:33 PM.

[nastynas]

Brother Mansab, I really do enjoy reading your posts but it is a shame I can not understand the Arabic references you post  

[Aabiss_Shakari]

If some one believes that by accepting others version of history and going against the fundamentals of Shia faith, one will achieve so called Unity then he is living in fools paradise. Unity is not attained by accepting someone views rather it is attained by accepting the existence of others by open hands and let them have their faith. In spite of continuous struggle by Fadlullah to attain so called Unity by corrupting the basics of Shia faith still Salafis call all Shia Muslims Kafir "Including Fadlullah and his followers". This proves that Unity is not attained by corrupting one's own faith.

[Marbles]

lotfilms, on Jun 28 2009, 03:54 PM, said:

Of course, Fadhallah has a couple major differences with other scholars, such his his view on tawassul, but otherwise, he's really not different from the others.

Please enlighten me about Sayyed Fadhallah's views on intercession and on other issues you did not mention.

Thanks.

[Ya Imam-e-Zamana Adrikni]

I don't understand why we are trying to label people as good or bad. It seems quite pointless. You can agree or disagree with Syed Fadlallah on different issues, and I definitely have a different point of view on certain theological issues from him, but he is still a scholar and it seems like a big accusation to just say he has arrived at his point of view solely to appease other sects and not because it is the result of his own research. He is still working for the cause of shia Islam and what I have been told by some Lebanese friends of mine is that he has helped bring many thousands of people into shia Islam. It is healthy to debate and discuss different aspects of Islam so that we can improve our understanding, but in the grand scheme of things our differences are very minor and should not be the cause of too much division as all those who are working for the cause of Islam have the same ultimate goal, which is to help propagate the teachings of Ahlul Bayt and help to prepare the world for the return of the Imam of the Age .

[lotfilms]

Marbles, on Jul 4 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

Please enlighten me about Sayyed Fadhallah's views on intercession and on other issues you did not mention.

Thanks.

Get it straight from the source:
http://www.bayynat.org.lb

Some of the more controversial questions are answered here:
http://english.bayyn.../qa.aspx?id=110

And of course, the best thing to do is to personally ask him/his office:
http://english.bayyn...lb/QA/sendq.htm

wa salam

[husain-bolivia]

Ya Imam-e-Zamana Adrikni, on Jul 5 2009, 04:51 AM, said:

I don't understand why we are trying to label people as good or bad. It seems quite pointless. You can agree or disagree with Syed Fadlallah on different issues, and I definitely have a different point of view on certain theological issues from him, but he is still a scholar and it seems like a big accusation to just say he has arrived at his point of view solely to appease other sects and not because it is the result of his own research. He is still working for the cause of shia Islam and what I have been told by some Lebanese friends of mine is that he has helped bring many thousands of people into shia Islam. It is healthy to debate and discuss different aspects of Islam so that we can improve our understanding, but in the grand scheme of things our differences are very minor and should not be the cause of too much division as all those who are working for the cause of Islam have the same ultimate goal, which is to help propagate the teachings of Ahlul Bayt and help to prepare the world for the return of the Imam of the Age .

finally one really good muslim shia in this forum.
i agree with you.

we are doing the same that the salafis, talking and talking without knowledege. puaj

fe aman Allah

[BintAlHoda]

mansab.jafri, on Jun 28 2009, 07:49 AM, said:

This man, ... has changed many fundamental beliefs of the Rafidha.  He falsely deems weak the traditions where our Imam (a.s.) curses Abu Bak'r and 'Umar.  See here some of his defenders trying to weaken the traditions and exposing their love of Shiekhein:.......

I think it's important to have some perspective.

First of all, no one person 'changes the beliefs of the Rafidha' (assuming that's us). Our beliefs are either defined by Qur'an and hadith or, alternatively, by what we believe (whether or not it is supported by Qur'an and hadith).

Second, we have boatloads of weak traditions. If you are unhappy with his opinion about certain hadith, have you ever examined the isnads themselves and determined whether they are strong or not?

Anyway...... with regards to the whole question, if someone is doing decent scholarship (meaning they know what they are talking about and make arguments and claims on logical grounds, not out of thin air), they're not 'good' or 'bad'..... they're just using different methodologies.

[YaAli(as)]

Although I disagree with Ayatollah Fadhlullah, for the sake of shia unity we shouldn't make this into such a big issue.

[ashraf_al_nass]

All I have to say to the ones against His Supreme Eminence, Marja Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah is this:

Go, get the amount of schooling he received, study where/how he studied, learn what he has learned, get even an inch of the knowledge that he has, get to the degree of marja3'eye he has... And then openly confront him on these issues. Do not talk about him, or any marja3 for that matter, when you don't even know how to begin to learn what they have learned- And this goes for all of you that are against any marja3, not just for Fadlallah, but in this specific case- it's for him-

When you start to truly understand his reasoning and laws, try to counter it... But when you don't even know what he is talking about, even when he simplifies his meanings, you have a lot to learn.

May Allah have the mercy of the universe on your souls, (those who are against his most honored and learned), for you will all truly need it.

Allahuma Sulli 3ala Muhammad, wa 'Ale Muhammad.

[JawzofDETH]

lotfilms, on 28 June 2009 - 09:54 AM, said:

I choose him because he's honest and straightforward about the things I ask him.

For instance, a certain Marja (no need to mention any names) was asked "Is Dua Tawassul authentic?"
That Marja's answer was "It is in our books."

What kind of answer is that??

On the other hand, Fadhallah is honest enough to admit things that other scholars know, but don't say (unless you ask them in person), like there are gaps in the chain of Dua Kumayl, etc.

I think the major difference between Fadhallah and most other scholars (for the most part) is that he says things publically that others don't say, but they know.  For example, I asked a certain person (again, not need to mention any names) in person why he says and advocates "Ali wali Allah" in the adhan/aqamah when it is a bidah?  He response was because he did not want to create fitnah in the community.

I feel that answers like these are not beneficial to our community tbh.

Of course, Fadhallah has a couple major differences with other scholars, such his his view on tawassul, but otherwise, he's really not different from the others.

Of course, there are certain scholars who hold such ghulut beliefs that they would have been kicked out of the hawzas by the early Qummis a long time ago, but they are a minority tbh.


In conclusion, I feel a certain other Marja may be more knowledgeable than Fadhallah, but I want someone who is honest with me, even if my question is troublesome or controversail; I like him because he gives me proper answers, not answers like the ones I mentioned earlier in this post.

wa salam

I am not a muqallid, but if I were to choose, I would choose him because he uses all knowledge available in our times to make an informed opinion.

Was-Salaam

[Haidar Haidar Ya Sihyon]

Salam,

Quiet honestly I don't even know where to start with replying to you. But I will be as nice in my reply as I can be, since this is the only way someone can reply to someone who is a common person who thinks he knows shia islam, that wants to critisize the Grand Ayatullah Muhammad Hussien Fadlullah. Let me ask you firstly are any of the narrators of our hadith infallibles? Secondly where is the logic in any of the things you are saying? or any of those other Marja's that are trying to signal out that Grand Ayatullah Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah is not a religious authority based on what he said? From my point of view I think its more like the mafia, if someone pisses you off enough and is moving in on you then they team up and they signal him out. I have read so many fatawa's for other marja's BIG GRAND AYATULLAH MARJA, they made me either laugh, sick, or just plain astonished with the way they issue some Fatwa's, and the funny part about it, is that they won't even go into debate with you as to why they issue this type of fatawa's. But does that give me the authority to say that they are wrong and should be removed from religious authority? NO!!! Because it is a personal ijtihad. Grand Ayatullah Sayyed Muhammad Hussien Fadlallah, is a very very honest man, and not scared of saying the truth no matter how hurtful it is, this is what distinguishes him from the rest. I have posted here on shia chat and I will post it again, Grand Ayatullah Sayyed Muhammad Hussien Fadlallah has asked simple questions with regards to the incident of Sayyida Fatima (a.s), and in my opinion they are logical and exactly the type of questions that should be asked, and if you are are confident you have the correct logical answer then please post your answers and then from there we will proceed to show you how illogical your response is. I don't care about who narrated the hadith, I want your logical response and you can even refer to your marja and ask him to help you out with a logical response. So please don't copy and paste a hadith for me. I am eagerly waiting for your response, with regards to your answer with regards to Sayyida Fatima (a.s) incident. The difference between Sayyed Muhammad Hussien Fadlallah and other marja with regards to this incident is that he consider this to be a historical issue. But other marja consider this to be an issue that differenciate Shia/Sunni.

Salam

[Chiddler]

Ya Imam-e-Zamana Adrikni, on 04 July 2009 - 11:51 PM, said:

I don't understand why we are trying to label people as good or bad. It seems quite pointless. You can agree or disagree with Syed Fadlallah on different issues, and I definitely have a different point of view on certain theological issues from him, but he is still a scholar and it seems like a big accusation to just say he has arrived at his point of view solely to appease other sects and not because it is the result of his own research. He is still working for the cause of shia Islam and what I have been told by some Lebanese friends of mine is that he has helped bring many thousands of people into shia Islam. It is healthy to debate and discuss different aspects of Islam so that we can improve our understanding, but in the grand scheme of things our differences are very minor and should not be the cause of too much division as all those who are working for the cause of Islam have the same ultimate goal, which is to help propagate the teachings of Ahlul Bayt and help to prepare the world for the return of the Imam of the Age .

Quoting this for agreement and emphasis.

Well said, and thank you.

[alial1234]

THe man is very truthful in his words and he has done a lot of good for his community. He is contrversial because till this day he has not told us how fatima al zahra died? It wasn't the second, then who was it? Regardless of this, he is worthy of taqleed and there is no problem doing taqleed of him

[leb_cool]

alial1234, on 05 November 2009 - 09:32 PM, said:

THe man is very truthful in his words and he has done a lot of good for his community. He is contrversial because till this day he has not told us how fatima al zahra died? It wasn't the second, then who was it? Regardless of this, he is worthy of taqleed and there is no problem doing taqleed of him

when u have more then  30 big ayatollah and maraje3  against him, then he is not most knowledgeable and there is a serious problem against him.

and its not how fatima zahraa died the problem, there is a lot more. u can visit mezan.net

salam

[Haidar Haidar Ya Sihyon]

alial1234, on 05 November 2009 - 09:32 PM, said:

THe man is very truthful in his words and he has done a lot of good for his community. He is contrversial because till this day he has not told us how fatima al zahra died? It wasn't the second, then who was it? Regardless of this, he is worthy of taqleed and there is no problem doing taqleed of him

Salam,

Do you know that Fatima al zahra'a (a.s) was extremely depressed after the death of the Prophet (saaws)? Do you believe that extreme depression can in some cases cause death?

Salam.