177 replies to this topic

[Al-Afza]

PeaceLoving, on 24 December 2010 - 05:38 PM, said:

The Quran's reckoning must be according to the astronomy in the days of the Holy Prophet, which would be lunar years.

The 950 lunar years would translate to about  925 solar years.

No offense intended, but such an assessment could be considered presumptious, tunnel-visioned, circumstantial, superficial, and even inaccurate as the Holy Qur'an has included narratives of human history which is inclusive of so many cultures and civilizations...Consequently, differing methods of chronology would have to be taken into conisderation...For the sake of analogous comparison, there are a few vocabulary words in the Holy Qur'an that are decidedly not Classical Arabic.

The days of Nabih Muhammad itself had multiple different calendars in effect. It wasn't until after the Near East was Islamicized and the Hijri lunar calendar was made the central calendar could this apply...

As for the lunar calendar, there were multiple such calendars in effect during the time of the Quranic revelations that were running in varying cycles.

One would really have no way of knowing which method of reckoning is Al-Lah (swt) actually referring to...Unless one automatically assumes the Hejazi lunar cycle used in Mecca and Taybah(Madinat-ul-Nabih) during the Prophet's time.

This is exemplified in the Quranic verses in which the concept of the day or yawm can also alternately mean period...Which was illustrated earlier in this thread. Similarly, the concept of sana doesn't necessarily have to exclusively mean year, either...

If a day in the eyes of Ar-Rabb can be 50,000 years and also 1,000 years of "our" reckoning, then the same principles of variance could be applied to Quranic verse 29:14...

If a possible clue to the chronology of Nabih Nuh's day and age of antediluvian Dilmun held their yearly reckoning from (let's say) bovine years (eg. 12 bovine years to 1 human year), than 950 bovine years would come to 79 human years. A possibility, since the Dilmun culture, as described by the Sumerians, had very strong bovine cults. Also, being a predominantly pastoral & agricultural society, Nabih Nuh's Dilmun could have easily kept their annual count in bovine years, rather than solar or lunar cycles.

Again, it is speculation but until more underwater excavations reveal more of the antediluvian culture of the submerged Dilmun, this could be a possibility...

I wouldn't automatically settle upon 950 Hijri lunar years yet for verse 29:14...

[copy-pasted article]

Lost Civilization May Have Existed Beneath the Persian Gulf

Jeanna Bryner
LiveScience Managing Editor

LiveScience.com jeanna Bryner
livescience Managing Editor

livescience.com – Fri Dec 10, 7:25 am ET

Veiled beneath the Persian Gulf, a once-fertile landmass may have supported some of the earliest humans outside Africa some 75,000 to 100,000 years ago, a new review of research suggests. At its peak, the floodplain now below the Gulf would have been about the size of Great Britain, and then shrank as water began to flood the area. Then, about 8,000 years ago, the land would have been swallowed up by the Indian Ocean, the review scientist said.

The study, which is detailed in the December issue of the journal Current Anthropology, has broad implications for aspects of human history. For instance, scientists have debated over when early modern humans exited Africa, with dates as early as 125,000 years ago and as recent as 60,000 years ago (the more recent date is the currently accepted paradigm), according to study researcher Jeffrey Rose, an archaeologist at the University of Birmingham in the U.K.

"I think Jeff's theory is bold and imaginative, and hopefully will shake things up," Robert Carter of Oxford Brookes University in the U.K. told LiveScience. "It would completely rewrite our understanding of the out-of-Africa migration. It is far from proven, but Jeff and others will be developing research programs to test the theory." Viktor Cerny of the Archaeogenetics Laboratory, the Institute of Archaeology, in Prague, called Rose's finding an "excellent theory," in an e-mail to LiveScience, though he also points out the need for more research to confirm it.

The findings have sparked discussion among researchers, including Carter and Cerny, who were allowed to provide comments within the research paper, about who exactly the humans were who occupied the Gulf basin. "Given the presence of Neanderthal communities in the upper reaches of the Tigris and Euphrates River, as well as in the eastern Mediterranean region, this may very well have been the contact zone between moderns and Neanderthals," Rose told LiveScience. In fact, recent evidence from the sequencing of the Neanderthal genome suggests interbreeding, meaning we are part caveman.

Watery refuge

The Gulf Oasis would have been a shallow inland basin exposed from about 75,000 years ago until 8,000 years ago, forming the southern tip of the Fertile Crescent, according to historical sea-level records. And it would have been an ideal refuge from the harsh deserts surrounding it, with fresh water supplied by the Tigris, Euphrates, Karun and Wadi Baton Rivers, as well as by upwelling springs, Rose said. And during the last ice age when conditions were at their driest, this basin would've been at its largest.

In fact, in recent years, archaeologists have turned up evidence of a wave of human settlements along the shores of the Gulf dating to about 7,500 years ago. "Where before there had been but a handful of scattered hunting camps, suddenly, over 60 new archaeological sites appear virtually overnight," Rose said. "These settlements boast well-built, permanent stone houses, long-distance trade networks, elaborately decorated pottery, domesticated animals, and even evidence for one of the oldest boats in the world."

Rather than quickly evolving settlements, Rose thinks precursor populations did exist but have remained hidden beneath the Gulf."Perhaps it is no coincidence that the founding of such remarkably well developed communities along the shoreline corresponds with the flooding of the Persian Gulf basin around 8,000 years ago," Rose said. "These new colonists may have come from the heart of the Gulf, displaced by rising water levels that plunged the once fertile landscape beneath the waters of the Indian Ocean."

Ironclad case?

The most definitive evidence of these human camps in the Gulf comes from a new archaeological site called Jebel Faya 1 within the Gulf basin that was discovered four years ago. There, Hans-Peter Uerpmann of the University of Tubingen in Germany found three different Paleolithic settlements occurring from about 125,000 to 25,000 years ago. That and other archaeological sites, Rose said, indicate "that early human groups were living around the Gulf basin throughout the Late Pleistocene."

To make an ironclad case for such human occupation during the Paleolithic, or early Stone Age, of the now-submerged landmass, Rose said scientists would need to find any evidence of stone tools scattered under the Gulf. "As for the Neolithic, it would be wonderful to find some evidence for human-built structures," dated to that time period in the Gulf, Rose said. Carter said in order to make for a solid case, "we would need to find a submerged site, and excavate it underwater. This would likely only happen as the culmination of years of survey in carefully selected areas." Cerny said a sealed-tight case could be made with "some fossils of the anatomically modern humans some 100,000 years old found in South Arabia."

And there's a hint of mythology here, too, Rose pointed out. "Nearly every civilization living in southern Mesopotamia has told some form of the flood myth. While the names might change, the content and structure are consistent from 2,500 B.C. to the Genesis account to the Qur'anic version," Rose said. Perhaps evidence beneath the Gulf? "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands," said Rose, quoting Douglas Adams.


This map reveals the Arabian Peninsula with regions that were exposed as sea levels fell, and so became environmental refuges, possibly for some of the earliest humans out of Africa.

[end of copy-paste]

[another copy-pasted article excerpt]

In a 1981 Journal of Cuneiform Studies article, "The Tangible Evidence for the Earliest Dilmun", Theresa Howard-Carter espoused her theory identifying Dilmun with Qurna, an island at the Strait of Hormuz. Her scenario put the original mouths of the Tigris-Euphrates rivers, which she thought should be the site of the primeval Dilmun, at or even beyond the Straits of Hormuz. Mainstream archaeologists have avoided mentioning her article for fear of its apparent catastrophism, an awkward subject in geology.Baker, V., 1995, Theresa Howard-Carter also wrote: "It is more likely that the original Persian Gulf inhabitants lived along the banks of the lower or extended Shatt al-Arab, ranging some 800 km across the dry Persian Gulf bed. We can thus postulate that the pre-Sumerian cultures had more than ample time to be born and flourish in a riverine setting, encouraged by the agricultural potential and the blessings of a temperate climate. The fact that the body of proof for the existence of these societies must now lie at the bottom of the Persian Gulf furnishes at least a temporary excuse for the archaeologist's failure to produce evidence for their material culture."

[end of copy-paste]

Edited by Al-Afza, 24 December 2010 - 08:35 PM.

[PeaceLoving]

Al-Afza, on 24 December 2010 - 08:14 PM, said:

Such an assessment could be considered presumptious, tunnel-visioned, circumstantial, superficial, and even inaccurate

There is no need to get rude just because someone's opinion differs from yours.

The words you use betray arrogance in your own opinion and lack of tolerance for the views of others.

If you disagree with someone, try and explain why you think he (or she) is wrong instead of throwing in a slew of offensive words.

[Al-Afza]

I did say no offense intended...

However, your input seems not so much an opinion but rather a seemingly "logical" assessment...

Mine is not opinion at all...Just open-ended probes.

I could be reflecting arrogance (and sometimes intentional mistakes) just to get some outside-the-box thought-process going...In SC, it seems latent arrogance could be a criteria or pre-requisite.

That is the main reason why I stayed on board with SC for a half-decade...There seem to be more latent prima donnas here than on any other Islamic forum on the intenet...

To quote General Patton (in reference to fellow WW II allied commander Field Marshal Montgomery) -- "Hell, I know I'm a prima donna...I admit it. But what I can't stand about Monty is that he won't admit it..."

Peace & love.

Edited by Al-Afza, 24 December 2010 - 09:36 PM.

[PeaceLoving]

Al-Afza, on 24 December 2010 - 09:18 PM, said:

I did say no offense intended

That statement is cancelled by the use of offensive words and lack of polite behaviour. It is meaningless.

Al-Afza, on 24 December 2010 - 09:18 PM, said:

Mine is not opinion at all...Just open-ended probes.

That is your opinion. That is what they all say. And they all value their opinion very highly.

However, as I mentioned earlier, the words you used are opinions, not facts.

There is no need to throw mud on the opinions of others, as you clearly tried to do.

And only conceited people do that sort of thing.

One of the primary requirements of a good Muslim is to fill his speech with grace and humility.

But good-bye, I am not responding to any more of your posts.

So have a good day and have the last say. if you feel compelled to.

[Al-Afza]

PeaceLoving, on 24 December 2010 - 10:19 PM, said:

That statement is cancelled by the use of offensive words and lack of polite behaviour. It is meaningless.

That is your opinion. That is what they all say. And they all value their opinion very highly.

However, as I mentioned earlier, the words you used are opinions, not facts.

There is no need to throw mud on the opinions of others, as you clearly tried to do.

And only conceited people do that sort of thing.

One of the primary requirements of a good Muslim is to fill his speech with grace and humility.

But good-bye, I am not responding to any more of your posts.

So have a good day and have the last say. if you feel compelled to.

You are entirely too sensitive...

Not opinion, just hypotheses...I'd be somewhat hypocritical if I upheld that I didn't value them.

And they weren't presented as facts but feasible possiblities...

Also, you were a lot less communicative when discussing the subject matter at hand...Hmmm.

Certainly don't feel compelled, but obliged to respond for closure...

Wa Salam.

P.S. -- I don't quite recall the last time I was accused of being a "good" Muslim.

Edited by Al-Afza, 24 December 2010 - 11:03 PM.

[Al-Afza]

Note :

angel (eng) = messenger
angelus (lat) = messenger
angelos (grk) = messenger
evangelos (grk) = good messenger
evangel (eng) = good message
evangelium (lat) = good message
evangelion (grk) = good message
evangelios (grk) = good messages
rasul (ar) = messenger
rusul (ar) = messengers
risalah (ar) = message
bashar (ar) = good news
mubashshir (ar) = bringer of good news
mubashshirun (ar) = bringers of good news
malak (ar) = celestial being/subject
malaykah (ar) = celestial beings/subjects
paighambar (far) = messenger
paigham (far) = message
farishtay (far) = angel

Al Injil (The Evangel) = The Good Message

* Injil is an Imperial Aramaic/Syriac word for "good news" adapted as evangelion/evangelios or good message(s) in Greek.

iqra (ar) = recite
qur'an (ar) = recitation
qir'at (ar) = recital
qira'ah (ar) = recitals
qari (ar) = reciter/recitalist

Al Qur'an (The Koran) = The Recitation

* The Qur'anic Hafez (Preservationist) is a special category and classification different from the Qari (Reciter). The Hafez (Preservationist) is one who PRESERVES the zahiri (outer) and batini (inner) meanings of Al Qur'an (The Recitation). The Hafez (Preservationist) is more than just a Qari (Reciter) as the Hafez preserves the quintessential meanings of the Holy Qur'an. The Awliya (Patrons) or Wali (Patron) is the Waliallah (Patron from the Divinity). The Awliya (Patrons) are referred to in the Holy Qur'an as Al Muqaribun (The Near Ones) as they are near to Al-Lah (The Divinity) as well as Insaniyat (Humanity). It has always been the Awliya (Patrons) who have been the Huffaz (Preservationists) of the comprehensive meaning of the Holy Qur'an, as well as the two preceding Kitaballah (Book of the Divinity): Al Taurat (The Torah) & Al Injil (The Evangel). Being Huffaz (Preservationists), the Awliya (Patrons) have always been the REAL Mufassereen (Exegetes) of the divine revelations of Tawheed (Monotheism). The Holy Qur'an verifies this in Surah Sad (38:29):

Kitabun anzalnahu ilayka mubarakun liyaddabbaroo ayatihi waliyatathakkara oloo al-albabi
(It is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful.

The Ikhwan al-Awliya (Brotherhood of Patrons) existed in every generation of the Muwahidun Anbiya (Monotheist Announcers/Prophets). They functioned as the Huffaz (Preservationists) of the true teachings of the Muwahidun Anbiya (Monotheist Announcers/Prophets); they comprised the innermost circle of the Muwahidun Anbiya (Monotheist Announcers/Prophets). The Last Prophet (Muhammad ar-Rasulallah) had his Huffaz (Preservationists) in Imam Ali b. Abi Talib; Hazrat Aqil b. Abi Talib; Hazrat Salman al-Farsi; Hazrat Abu Dharr al-Ghifari; Hazrat Ammar b. al-Yasir; Hazrat Miqdad b. al-Aswad; Hazrat Hudhayfah; Hazrat Jabir al-Ansari; etc. Every generation of Huffaz (Preservationists) had a Leader (Imam) who was formally announced by the Muwahid Nabih (Monotheist Announcer/Prophet) of the day and place; this was for the Hifazat (Preservation/Safe-keeping) of the teachings and wahyi (revelation) of the Muwahid Nabih (Monotheist Announcer/Prophet) in his absence or AFTER his passing. However, when the Muwahid Nabih (Monotheist Announcer/Prophet) was present among any Ummat (Community), HE was their active ethical, moral, philosophical, doctrinal, social, spiritual, and religious Leader (Imam).

The penultimate Nabih/Rasul/Nazir (Announcer/Messenger/Warner), Isa (Jesus), had Hazrat Shamun al-Butrus b. Yuhannah (Simon the Peter, son of John) as the Leader (Imam) of his Huffaz (Preservationists/Safe-keepers). The last Nabih/Rasul/Nazir (Announcer/Messenger/Warner), Muhammad (Mahomet), had Hazrat Ali b. Abi Talib as the Leader (Imam) of his Huffaz (Preservationists/Safe-keepers); in Nabih Muhammad's case, this Leadership (Imamat) continued via his very own biological descendants up through the 12th Leader (Imam) because the Holy Qur'an was the last divine communication.

hafeez (ar) = preserver/saviour [one of the asma al-husna or beautiful names of Al-Lah]
hafez (ar) = preservationist/safe-keeper
huffaz (ar) = preservationists/safe-keepers
hifazat (ar) = preservation/safe-keeping/safety
hami (ar) = guardian/protector
mawla (ar) = grand patron
wali (ar) = patron
waliya (ar) = patroness
awliya (ar) = patrons
wilayat (ar) = patronage
wilayah (ar) = patronages
imam (ar) = leader
aimma (ar) = leaders
imamat (ar) = leadership
akhi (ar) = brother
ikhwan (ar) = brotherhood
mufasser (ar) = exegete
mufassereen (ar) = exegetes
tafseer (ar) = exegesis
wahyi (ar) = revelation
nuzul (ar) = manifestation
nazil (ar) = manifest
hadith (ar) = narrative
ahadith (ar) = narratives
muhaddith (ar) = narrator

Edited by Al-Afza, 26 December 2010 - 09:06 PM.

[Al-Afza]

Note:

The entire ideology and concept of a Chosen People or even Judaic Zionism is PURE FALLACY. In ancient Middle Eastern cultural tradition, a person was identified primarily by his family clan, subtribe, or tribe. Consequently, there is nor ethnicity or race called the Jews, Semites, Israelites, or Hebrews. These are the appellations or names of clans which gradually evolved into subtribes, and then finally full-sized tribes.

--The identification of Hebrew comes from the direct biological forefather Eber of Patriarch Abraham (Nabih Ibrahim). Those desecended from Eber were of the Bani Eber or Hebrew (Ibrani). It was a family clan which evolved into a subtribe, then a tribe.

--The identification of Shemite (Semite) comes from the direct biological descendants of Shem ben Noah (Sam bin Nuh). Again, it is a family clan which evolved into a subtribe, then a full tribe: The Bani Sam or Sami (Semite).

--The identification of Hamite comes from the direct biological descendants of Ham ben Noah (Ham bin Nuh): the Bani Hami or Ham (Hamites). A son of Ham was Canaan (Kinanah), whose progeny evolved into the tribe named Canaanites (Banu Kinanah).

--The identification of Israili (Israelite) comes from the 12 biological sons of Shaykh Yaqub Israil (Jacob Israel). Consequently, the sons of Yaqub Israil were Bani Israil. A tribe which spawned other tribes which included his sons named Luayy (Levi) and Yahudah (Judah).

--The identification of Yaqub Israil's paternal half-uncle Ismail (Ishmael) also had 12 biological sons of which the eldest was Nabat (Nabaioth), who was the progenitor of the Al-Anbat (The Nabataeans). Ismail (Ishmael) and his 12 sons were also of the Bani Eber or Hebrew (Ibrani) tribe. Consequently, ALL Ishmaelites were Hebrews (Ibrani).

--The identification of Jews or Judeans comes directly from the Judahites (Yahudis). Consequently, ONLY the Bani Yahudah are Yahudi (Judahite/Jew or Judean). This identification DOES NOT include ANY of the other sons of Jacob Israel (Yaqub Israil). Whereas the other 11 sons of Jacob Israel fall under the category of the tribes of Bani Israil (Sons of Israel), they DO NOT fall under the TRIBAL (NOT ethnic or racial) identification of Jews/Judeans/Judahites.

--For example, the identification of Levites (Bani Luayy) comes under the category of Israelite (Bani Israil), BUT NOT under the appellation of Jew/Judean/Judahite or Yahudi.

--Another example, the identification of Benjamites (Bani Yamin) comes under the category of Israelite (Bani Israil), BUT NOT under the appellation of Jew/Judean/Judahite or Yahudi.

The equivalent examples is the subtribe of Banu Fahr of Mecca Valley: From the Fahri, we get the  Bani Hashim or Hashimi (Hashimites); Bani Muttalib; Bani Amer; Bani Makhzum; Bani Harith; Bani Sahm; Bani Jumah; etc.

The appellation a'arab refers to the indigenous Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula who descended from their patriarchal ancestor Yar'ub bin Yashjub bin Qahtan. They are called Qahtani Arabs or A'arab (indigenous Arabs). They are distinct from the Adnan (Northern) 'arab or Arabic-speakers collectively from Syria; Lebanon; Palestine; Jordan; and Mesopotamian Iraq.  Those 'arab or Arabic-speakers are Arabized Arabs and are NOT indigenous Arabs (A'arab) or Qahtanian Arabs, who originated from South Arabia (Yemen/Oman/UAE). The majority of Hejazi Arabs were once Adnan (Northern) or Arabized Arabs, and NOT indigenous Arabs such as the A'arab (Qahtani Arabs). Today, they are but a minority as most of them gradually migrated back to the neighboring lands north of Arabia (i.e. Jordan/Palestine/Iraq/Syria/Lebanon).

The Adnan (Northern) or 'arab (Arabized Arabs) looked physically distinct from the indigenous Arabs or a'arab (Qahtanian Arabs). The a'arab or Qahtani Arabs are swarthier and directly descended from Bedouins (Badawiyyun). The Adnan (Northern) or Arabized Arabs ('arab) always bore a closer physical resemblance to the indigenous North Africans or Imazighen (i.e. Berbers), and are consequently more Mediterranean looking. Today, the Hejaz also has an ethnically mixed population of Adnan (Northern) or Arabized Arabs and Qahtanian Arabs from centuries of intermarrying. The physical distinctions between the Adnan (Northern) or Arabized Arabs ('arab) and the Qahtanian Arabs (a'arab) is similar to the phenotypic distinction between the Aryan and Dravidian peoples of South Asia (Pakistan/India/Bangladesh/Nepal/Sri Lanka).

The Holy Qur'an makes this clear distinction between the Adnan (Northern) or Arabized Arabs, whose top Hejazi urban settlements were the cities of Taybah (Al-Madinah) and Mecca (Bakka), and the indigenous Arabs (A'arab) or Qahtanian Arabs:

Surah At-Tawbah (The Repentance)--

009:120
It did not beseem the people of Medina and those round about them of the Arabs to remain behind the Messenger of Allah, nor should they desire (anything) for themselves in preference to him; this is because there afflicts them not thirst or fatigue or hunger in Allah's way, nor do they tread a path which enrages the unbelievers, nor do they attain from the enemy what they attain, but a good work is written down to them on account of it; surely Allah does not waste the reward of the doers of good;

Ma kana li-ahli almadeenati waman hawlahum mina al-aAArabi an yatakhallafoo AAan rasooli Allahi wala yarghaboo bi-anfusihim AAan nafsihi thalika bi-annahum la yuseebuhum thamaon wala nasabun wala makhmasatun fee sabeeli Allahi wala yataoona mawti-an yagheethu alkuffara wala yanaloona min AAaduwwin naylan illa kutiba lahum bihi AAamalun salihun inna Allaha la yudeeAAu ajra almuhsineena.

Edited by Al-Afza, 28 December 2010 - 05:58 PM.

[IloveImamHussain]

Al-Afza, on 28 December 2010 - 05:13 PM, said:

The entire ideology and concept of a Chosen People or even Judaic Zionism is PURE FALLACY.

How did this concept (of the chosen people) get into the Bible ?

[Al-Afza]

IloveImamHussain, on 28 December 2010 - 05:15 PM, said:

How did this concept (of the chosen people) get into the Bible ?

The concept and ideology of a Chosen People had to do with being muwahidun muminun (monotheist believers) or muslimeen (submitters). It was not a concept of a chosen ethnicity or race. The Holy Qur'an has recorded this in the following verses of Surah Al-Baqarah (The Heifer), which was undoubtedly a re-confirmation of this very same message in the earlier two kitaballah of Al Taurat (The Torah) and Al Injil (The Evangel):

2:47
O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.
Ya banee isra-eela othkuroo niAAmatiya allatee anAAamtu AAalaykum waannee faddaltukum AAala alAAalameena

2:122
O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.
Ya banee isra-eela othkuroo niAAmatiya allatee anAAamtu AAalaykum waannee faddaltukum AAala alAAalameena

2:123
And be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped.
Waittaqoo yawman la tajzee nafsun AAan nafsin shay-an wala yuqbalu minha AAadlun wala tanfaAAuha shafaAAatun wala hum yunsaroona

2:124
And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He [Al-Lah]
Wa-ithi ibtala ibraheema rabbuhu bikalimatin faatammahunna qala innee jaAAiluka lilnnasi imaman qala wamin thurriyyatee qala la yanalu AAahdee alththalimeena

Of course, the special favour upon the the Children of Yaqub Israil (Jacob Israel) was only VALID IF they remained just and not UNJUST (ZALIMEEN). It is based upon DEEDS (AMAAL) rather than automatic biological LINEAGE. Also, the FALLACY I was pointing out was that the Chosen People WERE NOT A RACE OR ETHNICITY...

...The way in which the Ashkenazi Jews present it is as if they were a race or ethnicity. That is the FALLACY. And here is the reason why...

Ashkenaz (Ascanias) was the son of Gomer, who was the son of Japheth, who was the 3rd son of Noah (Nuh).

Here is the following Biblical concept:

[copy-pasted clip from Wikipedia]

Table of nations According to Genesis 10, Noah had three sons:

• Ham, forefather of the southern peoples (Hamitic)
• Shem, forefather of the middle peoples (Semitic)
• Japheth, forefather of the northern peoples (Japhetic Eurasia)

[end of copy-paste]

The Ashkenazim "Jews" are NOT EVEN biological descendants of Shem, son of Noah even by their own Judeo-Christian standards...

Consequently, THE ARE NOT SEMITES. They are really Khazars of Khazaria (Ukraine/Scythia). THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO THE LAND OF PALESTINE OR ANY LAND IN THE MIDDLE OR NEAR EAST. The Tanakh (Hebrew-language Bible or Old Testament) identifies Ashkenaz (Ascanias), son of Gomer, son of Japheth, son of Noah as the FATHER OF THE EUROPEAN PEOPLES. Again, Ashkenazi "Jews" are NEITHER JEWS (JUDAHITES); ISRAELITES; SEMITES; HAMITES; nor CANAANITES...According to their very own Judeo-Christian standards, they could ONLY qualify as HEBREWS or Ibrani (Bani Eber). But then so do ALL ISHMAELITES...

Edited by Al-Afza, 28 December 2010 - 06:56 PM.

[IloveImamHussain]

Thanks

[Al-Afza]

IloveImamHussain, on 28 December 2010 - 06:50 PM, said:

Thanks

You're welcome.

[Al-Afza]

Note:

With Japheth being the progenitor of the Northern or European/Russian people, Ashkenaz (Ascanias) is placed with Phrygians in the below map:





My research came up with the Trojans being Ashkenazim because of the 3 famous Trojans named Ascanias (Askenaz)--one of whom was also a son of King Priam of Troy. Also, looking at the Western Judeo-Christian map which geographically places the Biblical Table of Nations, it is easy it see the European/Occidental "INTERPRETATION" or "UNDERSTANDING" of the Biblical scriptures. Of course it does not account for the Oriental/Asian people; South Asian people; the Australasians; the Sub-Saharans past Nubia(North Sudan)/Sudan/Ethiopia/Eritrea/Somalia; the Meso-Americas; etc.

Furthermore, from Judeo-Christian/Biblical standards MOSES WASN'T A JEW (JUDAHITE) or YAHUDI, EITHER. He was a LEVITE. And NEITHER WAS HIS BROTHER AARON...From where the SUPPOSED "Kohanim Gene" genetically identifies the "JEWISH RACE"...Kohan was an alleged Rabbi who was supposedly a direct PATRILINEAL descendant of AARON, son of the Biblical Amram and brother of MOSES. Again, a COLOSSAL contradiction in Rabbinical/Talmudic Judaism which insists that the only way a "Jew" can genetically be a "Jew" is through the "Jewish Biological Mother" and not the "Jewish Biological Father".

From the Biblical/Judeo-Christian Table of Nations, it is OBVIOUS that NEITHER MOSES NOR HIS BROTHER AARON WERE "JEWS" OR JUDAHITE (YAHUDI), consequently, the ENTIRE Kohan-Gene concept is a FALLACY.

Another curious item is that the identification of CANAANITE (Banu Kinanah) has alternately been used for being alleged ancestors of the so-called "JEWS"...There is one BIG problem with this:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[copy-pasted from www.gotquestions.org]

Genesis 9:20-25 tells us, "Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."

Why did Noah curse Canaan when it was Ham who saw him naked? Why was Noah so angry that Ham saw him naked? Some propose that Ham and/or Canaan actually did something to Noah in addition to seeing him naked. The passage mentions that Noah was angry when he found out, "what his youngest son had done to him." Homosexuality, rape, and humiliation are frequently mentioned as possibilities. However, the text nowhere states that Ham did anything to Noah. Any such view of what occurred is speculation.

Another view arises out of comparison with Leviticus 20:11, "The man who lies with his father's wife has uncovered his father's nakedness..." With Leviticus 20:11 in mind, some propose that Ham had sex with Noah's wife, and that was what brought the curse from Noah. However, this figurative understanding of "uncovering nakedness" fails to account for the fact that Shem and Japheth walked into the room backward and covered Noah with a garment. This does not make any sense if "uncovering nakedness" means "having sex with Noah's wife." It definitely seems that Noah was lying naked—his nakedness uncovered.

Whatever took place between Ham and Noah, why did Noah curse Ham's son Canaan, when Canaan is nowhere mentioned as having done anything? The Bible does not specifically answer this question. Ham was Noah's youngest son, and Canaan was Ham's youngest son. Perhaps Noah cursed Canaan because it is more painful for a father to see his child suffer than it is for a father to suffer himself. The other possible explanation is that Canaan was somehow involved in the incident, thereby bringing Noah's curse upon himself.

[end of copy-paste]

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Thank Al-Lah (swt), NO SUCH disgraceful passages are even remotely implied in the Holy Qur'an regarding the great patriarchs of monotheism. Furthermore, it makes no sense at all that Noah would have supposedly cursed Ham's innocent son Canaan, when it was Ham who was the alleged perpertrator or culprit. So from this Judeo-Christian/Biblical account, the Canaanites bear the CURSE of Patriarch Noah. Also, how are Canaanites (Banu Kinanah) sometimes considered Semitic when Canaan (Kinanah) was the SON OF HAM AND NOT SHEM ?

Genesis 9:27

God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

This is what the Bible says of Japheth, while Canaan bears the curse of being his servant. This may translate as the Canaanites (Banu Kinanah) will be subservient to the progeny of Japheth. This Biblical prophecy could be correlated to the Ashkenazi "Jews" of Khazaria/Eastern Europe DWELLING IN THE TENTS OF THE SHEMITES, WHO INCLUDE BOTH THE ADNAN (NORTHERN OR ARABIZED ARABS) & THE A'ARAB OR QAHTANIAN ARABS. With the ASHKENAZI ZIONIST occupation of PALESTINE, could this be considered a BIBLICAL PROPHECY ?

This still leaves us with WHO EXACTLY ARE THE CANAANITES ? THE PALESTINIANS ? Especially, since they were innocently burdened with a curse for something Canaan's father Ham did...!?

* Correction: Ham, NOT Japheth, was the 3rd or youngest son of Noah according to the Biblical narrative.

Edited by Al-Afza, 28 December 2010 - 09:34 PM.

[Al-Afza]

Note:

In spite of the fact that those who call themselves "JEWS" aren't even that from their very own Biblical/Judeo-Christian standards, the fact that so many Christians sociopolitically and geopolitically support the "Jewish" Zionist ideology is INCOMPREHENSIBLE considering the following Biblical verses:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 -

For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,

1 Thessalonians 2:15 -

who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind

1 Thessalonians 2:16 -

in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

We have something similarly INCOMPREHENSIBLE in standard Islam in the brothers & sisters of the Salafi movement and persuasion. They actually revere the temporal exploits of the Bani Umayyah (Umayyads) and extol the traditional VILLAINS of early standard Islamic history: Abu Sufyan; his son Muawiyah; Muawiyah's son Yazid I; etc. It clearly DEFIES moral logic and common sense.

Edited by Al-Afza, 29 December 2010 - 12:11 AM.

[Al-Afza]

IloveImamHussain, on 28 December 2010 - 05:15 PM, said:

How did this concept (of the chosen people) get into the Bible ?

In a possibly conclusive answer to your question...

Below ARE THE ONLY BIBLICAL VERSES WHICH ALLUDE TO THE "JEWS" AS THE CHOSEN PEOPLE:

The Bible - Old Testament

Deutoronomy 14:1
You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead,

Deutoronomy 14:2
for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.

As anyone can observe, there is NO ACTUAL MENTION OF "JEWS" in these specific verses ! AND THIS IS IT. THERE IS NOTHING MORE IN THE BIBLE SPECIFICALLY MENTIONING THE "CHOSEN PEOPLE"...

Other Biblical verses related to this subject are:

The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people, and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:1-3 NIV).

I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God (Genesis 17:7-8 NIV).

If you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all His commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you. Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please Him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess. Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other (Deuteronomy 28:15, 63-64 NIV).

One can easily make the Quranic and Biblical comparisons of these scriptural verses.

The Bible CLEARLY states that BOTH ISHMAEL & ISAAC HAD A COVENANT WITH ALMIGHTY GOD (YAHWEH/AL-LAH)...Below is a re-pasted post that VERIFIES and RECONFIRMS this:

One of the main reasons why the Tabernacle is considered to be greater than the Holy Kaaba, is because the posterity of Ishmael[Ismail] was never considered to have had Patriarch Abraham's covenant with them. And since in Saracen[Eastern] tradition, the Kaaba was built by Abraham and his eldest son Ishmael, it was thus rejected in Judeo-Christianity. In Judeo-Christianity, Isaac was taken to the altar for sacrifice upon Yahweh/Al-Lah's command. In the Qur'an, it was Ishmael...And because of this, Almighty God blessed the aged Patriarch Abraham with ANOTHER son through his aged spouse Lady Sarah named ISAAC(Is-haq)...

Genesis 17

¹And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

²And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

³And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

⁴As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

⁵Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

⁶And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

⁷And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

⁸And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

⁹And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

¹⁰This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

¹¹And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

¹²And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

¹³He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

¹⁴And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

¹⁵And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

¹⁶And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

¹⁷Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

¹⁸And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

¹⁹And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

²⁰And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

²¹But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

²²And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

²³And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

²⁴And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

²⁵And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

²⁶In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. ²⁷And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

---------------------------------------------

Now speak of diametrically opposed messages from the Biblical translators !!

Here we have Almighty God[Allah/Yahweh] clearly stating that ALL of Patriarch Ibrahim's seed who will be circumsized, HAS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH ALMIGHTY GOD.

Both patriarchs Abraham and Ishmael were circumsized on the selfsame day !

What greater proof from the Bible itself of Almighty God's covenant with Patriarch Abraham through his eldest son Patriarch Ishmael !

The emboldened and underlined Biblical verses from Genesis 17 CLEARLY indicate that Patriarch Ishmael had an everlasting covenant with Almighty God. Now, the Biblical translators have just placed this GLARING CONTRADICTION upon [audhubillah] Almighty God Himself !!

If you would have READ the verses 100-113 of Surah As-Saffat[The Ranks], you would have clearly understood that after Patriarch Ibrahim asked Almighty God for the righteous[in reference to his progeny]...Patriarch Ibrahim was given Patriarch Ishmael.

In verses 100-108, as an answer to his prayer, Patriarch Ibrahim gets Nabih Ishma-El = God hears; God has hearkened; God is Hearing.


37:100
Rabbi hab lee mina alssaliheena
My Lord! grant me of the doers of good deeds.

37:101
Fabashsharnahu bighulamin haleemin
So We gave him the good news of a boy, possessing forbearance.

37:102
Falamma balagha maAAahu alssaAAya qala ya bunayya innee ara fee almanami annee athbahuka faonthur matha tara qala ya abati ifAAal ma tumaru satajidunee in shaa Allahu mina alssabireena
And when he attained to working with him, he said: O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; consider then what you see. He said: O my father! do what you are commanded; if Allah please, you will find me of the patient ones.

37:103
Falamma aslama watallahu liljabeeni
So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,

37:104
Wanadaynahu an ya ibraheemu
And We called out to him saying: O Ibrahim!

37:105
Qad saddaqta alrruya inna kathalika najzee almuhsineena
"Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

37:106
Inna hatha lahuwa albalao almubeenu
Most surely this is a manifest trial.

37:107
Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin
And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:

37:108
Watarakna AAalayhi fee al-akhireena
And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:

37:109
Salamun AAala ibraheema
Peace be unto Abraham!

37:110
Kathalika najzee almuhsineena
Thus do We reward the doers of good.

37:111
Innahu min AAibadina almumineena
Surely he was one of Our believing servants.

37:112
Wabashsharnahu bi-ishaqa nabiyyan mina alssaliheena
And we gave him tidings of the birth of Isaac, a prophet of the righteous.

37:113
Wabarakna AAalayhi waAAala ishaqa wamin thurriyyatihima muhsinun wathalimun linafsihi mubeenun
And We showered Our blessings on him and on Ishaq; and of their offspring are the doers of good, and (also) those who are clearly unjust to their own souls.

------------------------------------------------------

The verses 112 & 113 CLEARLY indicated that Patriarch Isaac[Ishaq] was an additional son to Patriarch Abraham[Ibrahim].

You see COMMON SENSE & LOGIC prevail. When his wife Lady Sarah was barren and aged, Patriarch Abraham took himself a surrogate spouse in Lady Hagar[Hajira]. Prophet Abraham could hardly have been the father of many nations if he was unable to sire any offspring...

As a result, Patriarch Ishma-El [God hears] is born.

However, Almighty God decides to test Patriarch Abraham and commands him in a dream to sacrifice his ONLY HEIR...

Patriarch Abraham goes through with it but Almighty God spares him his sacrifice via a miracle : the lamb is sacrificed instead of Ishmael[Ismail].

As a FURTHER token of Almighty God's magnanimity and generosity, He gives Patriarch Abraham the glad tidings of another heir in Isaac[Ishaq] from his aged and barren first wife Lady Sarah.

When Lady Sarah was given this news from Almighty God's angelic messengers, she laughed at this incredulous news...Hence, when the second heir was born, he was named Isaac = He will laugh.

This above account is also covered in the Holy Qur'an in Surah Hud :

11:71
Waimraatuhu qa-imatun fadahikat fabashsharnaha bi-ishaqa wamin wara-i ishaqa yaAAqooba
And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: But we gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob.


11:72
Qalat ya waylata aalidu waana AAajoozun wahatha baAAlee shaykhan inna hatha lashay-on AAajeebun
She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"

11:73
Qaloo ataAAjabeena min amri Allahi rahmatu Allahi wabarakatuhu AAalaykum ahla albayti innahu hameedun majeedun
They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, o ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!"

P.S.--Most Muslims rarely discuss the first family that was identified by Allah(swt) as AHLUL BAYT [PEOPLE OF THE HOUSE] in the Holy Qur'an; Prophet Muhammad's family was the second family whom Allah(swt) identifies as the AHLUL BAYT [PEOPLE OF THE HOUSE] in Ayat Tatheer 33:33.

----------------------------------

In the Bible's Book of Genesis, Chapter 17, verses 2; 4; 7; 9, Almighty God CLEARLY states that He will have a covenant with Patriarch Abraham and his seed after him. God does NOT EXCLUDE any of Patriarch Abraham's seed. ALL are included :

²And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

⁴As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

⁷And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

⁹And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

In Verse 10, Almighty God then instructs Patriarch Abraham as to what that covenant will require : Circumcision of all that ARE BORN IN ABRAHAM'S HOUSE and ALL that are bought with his money.

In Verse 11, God explains that the act of circumcision is a TOKEN of His covenant with Patriarch Abraham.

In Verse 13, God states that His covenant will be in Patriarch Abraham's FLESH itself :

Genesis 17:13

and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

It will also be an EVERLASTING COVENANT.

The following Biblical verses of Genesis UNMISTAKABLY state that both Patriarchs, Abraham and his eldest son Ishmael, have CONSECRATED that everlasting covenant with Almighty God :

²³And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

²⁴And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

²⁵And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

²⁶In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

Consequently, the Judeo-Christian BIBLE has UNMISTAKABLY ESTABLISHED that Prophet Ishmael DID HAVE AN EVERLASTING CONVENANT WITH ALMIGHTY GOD…In God's very own words as translated into Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and English.

Thus, the verses Genesis 17:19-21

¹⁹ Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

²¹But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Are INCONSISTENT with all the other verses regarding Almighty God's COVENANT with Patriarch Abraham and Abraham's seed after him…

Verses 17:19-21 were possibly either doctored or were wholly inconsistent insertions by the Biblical translators…

If Verses 17:19-21 would have stated I will ALSO establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. and But my covenant will I ALSO establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year…

Then, that would have made a lot more sense and it would NOT have been inconsistent with the other verses regarding Almighty God's covenant with Patriarch Abraham and his seed after him.

This ALSO brings into question Genesis chapter & verses 16:11-12, in which an unnamed Angel of the Lord relates to Lady Hagar[Hajira] :

¹¹And the Angel of the Lord continued, See now, you are with child and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Ishma-El [God hears], because the Lord has heard and paid attention to your affliction.

¹²And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brothers.

Verse 12 IS IN CLEAR CONTRADICTION with the highly favourable verses of Genesis 17, in which it is unmistakably established that Almighty God DOES INDEED have an everlasting covenant with Patriarch Ishma-El[God hears].

Genesis 16:12 is TOTALLY INCONGRUOUS in comparison with the following chapter 17 of the Book of Genesis regarding Patriarch Ishmael ben Abraham. It is clearly out of place and does not belong there at all…

Genesis 16:11-12 :

¹¹And the Angel of the Lord continued, See now, you are with child and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Ishma-El [God hears], because the Lord has heard and paid attention to your affliction.

¹²And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brothers.

The above verses offer further examples of CONFLICTING messages from the translators of the Judeo-Christian BIBLE...

If Lady Hagar[Hajira] is afflicted and Almighty God hears her affliction and sends the unnamed Angel of the Lord to appease and console her, what kind of a consolation is Verse 16:12 ???

A grieving surrogate spouse of Patriarch Abraham, who is to ensure him his progeny when his elderly and/or barren first wife cannot, presents Patriarch Abraham with a male heir but in return this heir will be a wild[donkey] of a man whose hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him ??

This does NOT make any sense...

Furthermore, the grief and affliction of Lady Hagar[Hajira] is answered by Almighty God with the upcoming birth of a son to her whose very name means God Hears[Ishma-El] but he will be a wild[donkey] of a man whose hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him...

This makes even LESSER sense...

It is very difficult to even conceive that the compassionate and merciful Lord God would answer someone's affliction with such a virtual curse (for lack of a better descriptive word)...And then in the following chapter [Genesis 17] declare that He will BLESS this very same wild[donkey] of a man by multiplying him exceedingly, begetting him twelve princes, and making him a GREAT NATION.

Was it that the Biblical translators were trying to perpetuate the story and metaphor of Cain[Qabeel] and Abel[Habeel]--sons of Patriarch Adam--through Patriarch Abraham and his progeny ??

Genesis 16

Hagar and Ishmael

¹ Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar;

² so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her." Abram agreed to what Sarai said.

³ So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.

⁴ He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress.

⁵ Then Sarai said to Abram, "You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me."

⁶ "Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. "Do with her whatever you think best." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

⁷ The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur.

⁸ And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she answered.

⁹ Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her."

¹⁰ The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count."

¹¹ The angel of the LORD also said to her:
"You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishma-El[God hears], for the LORD has heard of your misery.

¹² He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers."

¹³ She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me."

¹⁴ That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

---------------------------------

Speaking of DISAGREEMENT...

Verses 1 & 2 establishes that Lady Sarah[Sarai] is the one who instructed Patriarch Abraham to sleep with her maid Lady Hagar[Hajira]; furthermore, Lady Sarah PERSONALLY took her maid Lady Hagar[Hajira] and presented her to Patriarch Abraham so Lady Hagar[Hajira] could be his surrogate wife.

Then, according to the Biblical translators, Lady Sarah is despised by her maid Lady Hagar[Hajira] in Verse 4 because of the very purpose she was wedded to Patriarch Abraham in the first place : that Lady Hagar[Hajira] bear him an heir and build Lady Sarah's very own family through her.

In Verse 5, Lady Sarah then blames Lady Hagar[Hajira] for despising her !?

Do any of these verses make any sense whatsoever ???

There is no reason provided for Lady Hagar[Hajira] to begin to despise Lady Sarah[Sarai]...

The question of Patriarch Isaac's covenant being accepted over Patriarch Ishmael hadn't even arisen and was still in the distant future...

There wasn't even the remotest concept that Lady Sarah[Sarai] was going to miraculously bear an offspring to Patriarch Abraham in the distant future, consequently, there was no reason or rationale for Lady Hagar[Hajira] to begin despising Lady Sarah[Sarai]...

Thus, the Biblical translators COULD NOT provide a reason or rationale in Verses 4 & 5 of Genesis 16 !

Even then, the verses in chapter 17, CLEARLY indicate that ALL of Patriarch Abraham's seed after him had an established covenant with Almighty God. NONE were excluded except those who rejected the covenantal rite of circumcision, and thus broke their covenant with Almighty God.

There is NOT A SINGLE verse in chapter 17 which explicitly states that Almighty God WILL NOT have a covenant with Patriarch Ishmael. ALL verses regarding the subject of God's covenant with Patriarch Abraham and his seed unmistakably indicate that Almighty God's everlasting covenant with patriarchs Abraham and Ishmael had been consecrated.

As for Verse 13, Lady Hagar[Hajira] is in conversation with the unnamed Angel of the Lord, and then SUDDENLY we are informed that Almighty Lord God Himself spoke to her !?

And in turn, Lady Hagar[Hajira] acknowledges this by declaring that God has seen her and that she has now seen the One who has seen her...???

So, which is it ??

Has God HEARD Lady Hagar[Hajira] or has God SEEN Lady Hagar[Hajira], and she in turn has SEEN God ???

And what happened to the unnamed Angel of the Lord ??

Where did he suddenly disappear to ??

Or was it figurative ?? She actually conversed with the unnamed Angel of the Lord but figuratively, it was a meeting with Almighty God Himself ??

I wonder what those Biblical translators were thinking when they transcribed all this...??

Quranic-Biblical comparisons :

Surah Hud; Ayats 69-73

11:69
Walaqad jaat rusuluna ibraheema bialbushra qaloo salaman qala salamun fama labitha an jaa biAAijlin haneethin
There came Our messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.

11:70
Falamma raa aydiyahum la tasilu ilayhi nakirahum waawjasa minhum kheefatan qaloo la takhaf inna orsilna ila qawmi lootin
But when he saw that their hands were not extended towards it, he deemed them strange and conceived fear of them. . They said: Fear not, surely we are sent to Lut's people.

11:71
Waimraatuhu qa-imatun fadahikat fabashsharnaha bi-ishaqa wamin wara-i ishaqa yaAAqooba
And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: But we gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob.

11:72
Qalat ya waylata aalidu waana AAajoozun wahatha baAAlee shaykhan inna hatha lashay-on AAajeebun
She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"

11:73
Qaloo ataAAjabeena min amri Allahi rahmatu Allahi wabarakatuhu AAalaykum ahla albayti innahu hameedun majeedun
They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, o ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!"

Genesis Chapter 18:1-15

The Three Visitors

¹ The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
² Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

³ He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by.

⁴ Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.

⁵ Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant." "Very well," they answered, "do as you say."

⁶ So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. "Quick," he said, "get three seahs of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread."

⁷ Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it.

⁸ He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.

⁹ "Where is your wife Sarah?" they asked him. "There, in the tent," he said.

¹⁰ Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.

¹¹ Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing.

¹² So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my master is old, will I now have this pleasure?"

¹³ Then the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Will I really have a child, now that I am old?'

¹⁴ Is anything too hard for the LORD ? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son."

¹⁵ Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, "I did not laugh." But he said, "Yes, you did laugh."

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From Verse 9 to Verse 10 in Genesis 18, again there is an inconsistency in that the Three Visitors [i.e. angelic messengers] are SUDDENLY inexplicably replaced with the very person of Almighty God...

No such confusion exists in the Quranic verses[ayats]...

Edited by Al-Afza, 29 December 2010 - 04:11 PM.

[Al-Afza]

Note:

Here is the full text of the Biblical verses which lead up to the verse about the 'Chosen People' and the verses after...So the reader can get the full context in which this Biblical verse mentioning the 'Chosen People' comes across :


Deuteronomy 13

Worshiping Other Gods
^{1 [a]}If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, ² and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," ³ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. ⁴ It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. ⁵ That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. ⁶ If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, ⁷ gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), ⁸ do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. ⁹ You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. ¹⁰ Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. ¹¹ Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. ¹² If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in ¹³ that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), ¹⁴ then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, ¹⁵ you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. ¹⁶ You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, ¹⁷ and none of the condemned things^[c] are to be found in your hands. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— ¹⁸ because you obey the LORD your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.


Deuteronomy 14

Clean and Unclean Food
¹ You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, ² for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession. ³ Do not eat any detestable thing. ⁴ These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, ⁵ the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep.^{[a] 6} You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud. ⁷ However, of those that chew the cud or that have a divided hoof you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the hyrax. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a divided hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you. ⁸ The pig is also unclean; although it has a divided hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses. ⁹ Of all the creatures living in the water, you may eat any that has fins and scales. ¹⁰ But anything that does not have fins and scales you may not eat; for you it is unclean. ¹¹ You may eat any clean bird. ¹² But these you may not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, ¹³ the red kite, the black kite, any kind of falcon, ¹⁴ any kind of raven, ¹⁵ the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, ¹⁶ the little owl, the great owl, the white owl, ¹⁷ the desert owl, the osprey, the cormorant, ¹⁸ the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat. ¹⁹ All flying insects are unclean to you; do not eat them. ²⁰ But any winged creature that is clean you may eat. ²¹ Do not eat anything you find already dead. You may give it to the foreigner residing in any of your towns, and they may eat it, or you may sell it to any other foreigner. But you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk.

Tithes

²² Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. ²³ Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. ²⁴ But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), ²⁵ then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. ²⁶ Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. ²⁷ And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.
²⁸ At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, ²⁹ so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

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From very careful reading and comprehension of these Biblical verses, the reader can gather that when the appellation ISRAEL is mentioned in Deuteronomy 13:11, it could be safe to assume that the Biblical verse is in direct reference to the Sons of Jacob Israel. So the ACTUAL Biblical verse which mentions the CHOSEN PEOPLE in Deuteronomy 14:2 is in direct reference to the Children of Jacob Israel, WHICH INCLUDED ALL TWELVE SONS OF JACOB ISRAEL.

However, Deuteronomy 14:27-28 STATES THAT THE LEVITES (BANI LUAYY) or the progeny of Luayy bin Yaqub Israil (Levi ben Jacob Israel) HAS NO ALLOTTMENT OR INHERITANCE OF THEIR OWN !

These Biblical verses are VERY STRANGE indeed. Considering that according to Judeo-Christian/Biblical texts, MOSES, THE DELIVERER OF ALL TWELVE TRIBES OF JACOB ISRAEL, WAS A LEVITE ! AND SO WAS HIS BROTHER AARON !

There are definitely some problems here with these Biblical verses which are sending conflicting messages to the reader.

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Copy-paste from the Encyclopedia of Judaism :

The doctrine in Judaism (also known as election) that God chose the people of Israel from among the nations. The doctrine of the chosen people is closely related to the notion of Covenant, the contract between God and Israel. The concept originates with the Divine choice of Abraham and his descendants as recounted in Genesis. God's first communication with Abraham already hints at a unique relationship with God that has implications for the rest of mankind: "I will make of you a great nation ... and all the families of the earth shall bless themselves by you" (Gen. 12:2-3).

God's covenant with Abraham is narrated in Genesis 17, and the contractual agreement in which the people of Israel agree to keep God's law (Ex. 19-24) is foreshadowed in God's musing: "Since Abraham is to become a great and populous nation, and all the nations of the earth are to bless themselves by him; for I have singled him out, that he may instruct his children and his posterity to keep the way of the Lord, by doing what is just and right" (Gen. 18:18-19).

At Sinai, the entire people of Israel is invited to affirm the covenant and enter into a special relationship with God: "Now, therefore, if you will obey Me faithfully, and keep My covenant, you shall be My treasured possession among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine; but you shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation ..." (Ex. 19:5-6). Israel, in agreeing to these terms (Ex. 19:7, 24:3, 7), reconfirms Abraham's covenant and renders it binding upon all future generations. Lest the people forget the experience, Moses, shortly before his death, reminds them: "For you are a people consecrated unto the Lord your God, and the Lord your God chose you from among all other peoples on earth to be His treasured possession" (Deut. 14:2).

The doctrine of the chosen people is presumed throughout the Bible, although nowhere does it receive systematic elaboration. No clear reason is offered for Israel's election: on the contrary, "The Lord did not set His heart upon you or choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples---indeed, you were the fewest of all peoples---but it was because the Lord favored you ..." (Deut. 7:7-8). Here and in the above citations, the Bible reiterates the unique situation whereas although the Lord is God of all the nations, Israel is nevertheless singled out. God tells Moses to inform Pharaoh that the Jewish people is His first-born, not His only child (Ex. 4:22; see also Amos 9:7 and Mal. 2:10). Although the perception of a special relationship with God was at the very least a source of pride (Num. 17:6), the Bible does not spare its rebuke of the people of Israel for their transgressions, and informs them that, "I have known only you of all the peoples of the earth; therefore I will visit upon you all your iniquities" (Amos 3:2). Chosenness implied responsibilities towards the other nations (e.g., Gen. 12:3; Ex. 19:6; Deut. 4:6-7; Isa. 49:6), even suffering on their behalf (Isa. 52:13-53:12).

Although the doctrine of Israel's election receives no direct expression in Maimonides' thirteen Principles of Faith, it has been suggested that its place in Jewish consciousness always maintained the centrality of an "unformulated dogma." The rabbis of the Talmud presumed a system of the most intimate relationship between God and the Jewish people, with R. Akiva (second cent. CE) going so far as to assert that the highly explicit love poetry of the Song of Songs was nothing less than a metaphor of the relationship between God and His people (Yad. 3:5; Tosef Sanh. 12:10). One rabbinic tradition (based on Ex. 19:8, 24:3, 7) credits the Jewish people with choosing God, in that it was the only nation on earth willing to accept the Torah (AZ 2b-3a). The most succinct expression of the rabbinic view of election is to be found in the text of the holiday liturgy, "You have chosen us from all peoples; You have loved us and taken pleasure in us, and have exalted us above all tongues; You have sanctified us by Your commandments and brought us near unto Your service, our King; You have called us by Your great and holy Name." The rabbis also subscribed to the biblical perspective that posited God as not only the "patron" of Israel but the God of all nations: "He is our God by making His name particularly attached to us; but He is also the one God of all mankind. He is our God in this world, He will be the only God in the world to come, as it is said (Zech. 14:9), 'And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Lord and His name One'" (Sif. on Deut. 6:4).

In later periods, views of chosenness coalesced along two fairly distinct lines. Some medieval and modern thinkers, Maimonides foremost among them, saw election as a matter of duty, not of rights. Sanctity and superiority are promised as a consequence of obedience to the covenant, not granted as an outright gift or presumed as a national prerogative. Transgression brings with it inferiority and decline. The second school, whose chief proponent was Judah Halevi, and which is echoed in ḥasidism and the Kabbalah, sees Israel as intrinsically unique and attributes special qualities to Jewish souls. Although the possibility of Conversion to Judaism was one factor precluding any racist theory, the emphasis on Israel's election became stronger when historical circumstances and persecutions pressed upon the Jewish community. The treatment that Jews received from their neighbors throughout history did not encourage universalist tendencies, while Christianity's claim to have replaced Israel's covenant and become the "true Israel" further exacerbated exclusivist leanings.

With Emancipation, the doctrine of the chosen people became increasingly problematic. Early Reformers such as Abraham Geiger sought to retain the notion of election by rational reinterpretation, seeing Israel's mission fulfilled in its dispersion, through which it brings God's message to the world. Others emphasized the element of Israel's choice of God and Torah, for which there is a basis in rabbinic thought. The Reform prayer book Gates of Prayer (New York, 1975) provides a very broad gamut of alternate worship services for all occasions, from the traditional and particularistic to the universalistic and non-theistic. The idea of chosenness has been reintroduced in the particularistic prayers. For example, the traditional version of the ancient Hebrew prayer Alénu Le-Shabbe'Aḥ is one of the alternatives offered. A literal translation of the Hebrew is: "We must praise the Lord of all, and attribute greatness to the Primeval Creator, Who has not made us like the nations of the lands, nor established us like the families of the earth. He has not set our lot like theirs, and our destiny like that of all their multitudes ..." The translation given in Gates of Prayer is somewhat modified: "...Who has set us apart from the other families of earth, giving us a destiny unique among the nations."

The idea of the chosenness of Israel is, however, preserved in the blessings before the Reading of the Law and the HAFTARAH in both the Hebrew and English. Likewise, the traditional passage "You have chosen us" has been restored to the AMIDAH prayer in the festival services. Most of these elements were excluded from the Union Prayer Book which had previously dominated American Reform congregations for over 80 years.

Certain thinkers, most notably Mordecai KAPLAN, repudiated the idea, and his Reconstructionist movement expunged all mention of chosenness from its prayer book. Nevertheless, most contemporary thinkers retain some conception of chosenness and covenant. More traditional circles did not find these ideas difficult, their members daily reciting benedictions which thank God for choosing Israel.

Many Zionist thinkers (though not all), while seeking the "normalization" of Jewish national life, were also intrigued by the biblical appellation "light unto the nations" (Isa. 49:6) and hoped that the State of Israel would develop into some expression of this ideal. Throughout the generations, the belief in its election has fortified the Jewish people in time of crisis, given a sense of purpose to individual and national life, and motivated the pursuit of moral and spiritual excellence, while rarely degenerating into crass ethnocentricity.

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Below is the full context in which the ONLY other Biblical verse regarding the CHOSEN PEOPLE is mentioned :

Deuteronomy 7 (King James Version)

Deuteronomy 7

¹When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga[Edited Out]es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

²And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

³Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

⁴For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

⁵But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

⁶For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

⁷The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

⁸But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

⁹Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

¹⁰And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

¹¹Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

¹²Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

¹³And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

¹⁴Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.

¹⁵And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

¹⁶And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.

¹⁷If thou shalt say in thine heart, These nations are more than I; how can I dispossess them?

¹⁸Thou shalt not be afraid of them: but shalt well remember what the LORD thy God did unto Pharaoh, and unto all Egypt;

¹⁹The great temptations which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the stretched out arm, whereby the LORD thy God brought thee out: so shall the LORD thy God do unto all the people of whom thou art afraid.

²⁰Moreover the LORD thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed.

²¹Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.

²²And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the beasts of the field increase upon thee.

²³But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.

²⁴And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.

²⁵The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.

²⁶Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

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Another COLOSSAL Biblical contradiction. Deuteronomy 7:7 CLEARLY STATES that the ISRAELITES were THE FEWEST OF ALL PEOPLE ! And yet, in Exodus the Pharaoh of Egypt was afraid that the Children of Jacob Israel were TOO NUMEROUS and therefore ordered their persecution !

The Bible holds the number of MEN alone who were part of the Exodus out of Egypt: 600,000 ! Including women, children, and the elderly, the aggregate number of ISRAELITES were approximately 3 MILLION !

See below:

Exodus 1:1-20 (King James Version)

Exodus 1

¹Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob.

²Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah,

³Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin,

⁴Dan, and Naphtali, Gad, and Asher.

⁵And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

⁶And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

⁷And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them.

⁸Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

⁹And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:

¹⁰Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.

¹¹Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

¹²But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel.

¹³And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour:

¹⁴And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour.

¹⁵And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:

¹⁶And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

¹⁷But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

¹⁸And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?

¹⁹And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

^[b]20Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

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[viceroy]

It is very true that Westerners (i.e. Europeans & Eurasians) do not have the grasp of ancient Near Eastern cultural traditions from an ethno-anthropological perspective.

They don't understand that the appellation Ebrani (Hebrew) is a tribal one, pertaining to the genealogical descendants of Eber (i.e. Ebrani/Bani Eber or Chidren of Eber)

The same goes for the tribe of Bani Luayy (Levites) or Children of Luayy (Levi), to whom Nabih Musa(Moses) & Nabih Harun(Aaron) belonged. It is further true that neither Prophet Musa(Moses), nor Prophet Harun(Aaron) were Yahudi (Judahites) or of the Bani Yahudah (Children of Yahudah); the Bani Yahudah being the tribal descendants of Yahudah bin Yaqub (Judah ben Jacob).

As for the appellation of Tabernacle :

tab·er·na·cle (tbr-nkl)           
n.           
1. often Tabernacle The portable sanctuary in which the Israelites carried the Ark of the Covenant through the desert.           
2. often Tabernacle A case or box on a church altar containing the consecrated host and wine of the Eucharist.           
3. A place of worship.           
4. A niche for a statue or relic.           
5. Nautical A boxlike support in which the heel of a mast is stepped.           
[Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin tabernculum, from Latin, tent, diminutive of taberna, hut; see tavern.]                          
          

Meanwhile, the appellation of Kaaba (from the dictionary translation) :

[Arabic ka'ba, cube, cubic structure, from ka'aba, to swell, be full (said of breasts); see kb in Semitic roots.]

The appellation Kaaba is mentioned twice in the Holy Qur'an in Qiratul Maidah (Recital of the Table Spread) - Surah 95 & Surah 97 :

5:95           
O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts: that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. Allah forgives what is past: for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty. For Allah is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola taqtuloo alssayda waantum hurumunwaman qatalahu minkum mutaAAammidan fajazaon mithlu maqatala mina alnnaAAami yahkumu bihi thawaAAadlin minkum hadyan baligha alkaAAbati aw kaffaratuntaAAamu masakeena aw AAadlu thalika siyamanliyathooqa wabala amrihi AAafa AllahuAAamma salafa waman AAada fayantaqimu Allahuminhu waAllahu AAazeezun thoo intiqamin
                                                                               

5:97           
Allah made the Ka'ba, the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them: That ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

JaAAala Allahu alkaAAbata albayta alharamaqiyaman lilnnasi waalshshahra alharamawaalhadya waalqala-ida thalikalitaAAlamoo anna Allaha yaAAlamu ma fee alssamawatiwama fee al-ardi waanna Allaha bikullishay-in AAaleemun             

Edited by viceroy, 02 November 2011 - 11:42 AM.

[viceroy]

[copy-paste]

One branch of the Tsabians were King Herod's Hodites evicted from Jerusalem by the Romans. According to the Hodites of Mecca their scriptures stated that a Prophet would arise there who would bring about the dawn of a new age and take them back to Jerusalem. "Synagogues" incorporating pagan motifs found all over the Holy Land are the last remnants of Herod's "Hodite" Tsabian community. The most common form of σεβεια was a kind of syncretism. While the church draws a sharp distinction between Emperor Constantine and Julian the Apostate, there is no evidence that the religious beliefs of both men were not exactly the same. It is clear only that that their views on who exactly Jesus was differed, Constantine seeing him as an incarnation of Mithras, Julian seeing him as nothing but a 1st century Jewish teacher. Constantine was interested in bringing out Mithraic symbolism in rituals of Jewish origin, while Julian clearly respecting Jewish ritual saw no reason for syncretism and preferred not to blur the line between his own ethnic rituals and rituals of Jewish origin. This distinction makes Constantine the heretic from a Jewish perspective while Julian was firmly within Theosebeia even though his ritual observances were further away from Judaism.

[end copy-paste]

I came across this excerpt from an encyclopaedic article entitled Theosebeia.

It is very interesting to note that there is a clear distinction between the appellation Yahudi (i.e. Judahites or Bani Yahudah/Children of Yahudah/Judah) and Huuda (Hodites). In the Holy Qur'an, it is Huuda (Hodites) that is actually mentioned. This is in direct reference to a proselytizing monotheist religious sect of the descendants of the Bani Israeel (Children of the Journeyers) from Jerusalem, Palestine. The Nasaraeans were Nazarenes of Nazareth (Nasar). The Nasaraeans are the Nasaara of the Qur'an. The Nasaara were the very first Messianic sect of Isa Masih (Jesus Chrestus-Latin or Iesous Christos-Koine Greek). Identical to the Huuda (Hodites), the Nasaara (Nasaraeans) of Nasar (Nazareth) were indigenous Palestinians. The Nasaara eventually spread their beliefs to the Greeks and Romans. The Greco-Roman converts to the doctrines of the Nasaara came to be called CHRISTIANS (i.e. Messianists).

The Huuda (Hodites) first went south to Arabia (in the Hejaz and Yemen) and proselytized their doctrines, which rejected Isa as the promised Messiah of Bayt Al-Dawood (House of David). The Huuda (Hodites) allegedly embellished much in their doctrines about their history which very quickly came to be known as JUDAICA in the Greco-Roman world. The Huuda (Hodites), having being evicted by the pagan Romans, naturally went outside the boundaries of Roman territory. Arabia was not under pagan Roman control. When the Romans converted to Christianity, there commenced a big push by the Huuda (Hodites) to rival the fervour of Christian proselytism. Also, with the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity, some of the Huuda (Hodites) were tentatively permitted back into Palestine. However, by then, the Huuda (Hodites) were fully committed to the expansion of their religious sect. The Huuda (Hodites) proselytized in Tamazgha (North Africa) and to the Khazarian Empire of the Scythians in Eurasia. The conversion of the Eurasian people of Khazaria (formerly called Scythia) in 740 CE, was the greatest prize for the widely expanding Huuda (Hodite) religious sect. The Huuda (Hodites) had to ensure that their religious sect would not be marginalized with the conversion to Christianity by the mighty Roman Empire. Due to their expansion, the Huuda (Hodites) inevitably wound up being subdivided into several breakaway sects. Some of these were the Kiraite, the Massorah, etc. It was the Massorah of Tiberias, Palestine who devised the "Hebrew" or "Ebrani" language from Koine Greek, Syriac Aramaic, and Classical Arabic circa 750-850 CE; the Massorah had settled upon adapting the Imperial Aramaic script for their newly invented "Hebrew" or "Ebrani" language (aka Tiberian Hebrew). Finally, some extremist members of the widespread Huuda (Hodites) deified one of their ancestral leaders, the scribe Uzair (Ezra), to counter and consciously emulate the way Isa (Jesus) had been transformed into the 'Son of God' in Greco-Roman Christianity.

In the language of Middle Farsi(Persian), the Quranic Arabic appellation Huuda (Hodite) becomes Yahudi, while Nasaara (Nasaraean) becomes Nasrani with Nasar (Nazareth) becoming Nasr. In English translation, the appellations Yahudi = Judean & Nasrani = Christian. In Quranic Arabic, Isra = Journey; Isra-il = Journeyer; Isra-eel = Journeyers. Consequently, the Quranic personage of Shaykh Yaqub Isra-il bin Ishaq = Elder Jacob the Journeyer, son of Isaac. The epithet of "Journeyer" became the cognomen for Yaqub (Jacob) because of his desert journey across the Sinai Peninsula from Madyan (Midian), NW Arabia to Lower Egypt, to be reunited with his long-lost son Yusuf (Joseph).

Edited by viceroy, 06 November 2011 - 01:07 AM.

[viceroy]

A common fallacy regarding the appellation of Jesus is that its "Hebrew" version is Yashua or Yeshua or Yeshiva:

Jesus = Latin
Iesous = Koine Greek
Isa = Syriac Aramaic
Isa= Classical Arabic

Joshua = Roman English
Yashua = Tiberian Hebrew
Y'Hoshua = Modern Hebrew
Yusha = Classical Arabic

Another similar example is the Quranic Arabic appellation Yahya. It has been commonly mistaken to be the Arabic adaptation of the Biblical John. This is most certainly not the case:

[Classical Arabic]
Yahya = Long life
Haya = Life
Huyayy = Young Life
Hayy = Alive

John is the Roman English adaptation of the Syriac Aramaic Yuhannah.

For example, the Syriac Aramaic & Classical Arabic personage of Shamun al-Butrus bin Yuhannah translates as Simon the Peter, son of John.

Indo-European & Cyrillic variations of the Syro-Palestinian (i.e. Aramaean) first name Yuhannah include:

John/Johann/Johannes/Joanes/Joan/Juan/Jean/Giovanni/Gian/Gianni/Jan/Hans/Janos/Sean/Jannis/Ioannes/Iohannes/Euan/Evan/Ivan etc...

[viceroy]

[Append to earlier posts]:

Huuda (Arabic) = Ioudaia (Greek)

Ioudaia (Greek) = Iudaea (Latin)

Iudaea (Latin) = Judea (Roman English)

Huuda (Arabic) = Hodite (English) / Judean (Roman English)

Yahudah (Aramaic / Aramaya) = Judah (English) / Judas (Roman English)

Yahudah (Arabic / Arabiyy) = Judah (English) / Judas (Roman English)

Yahudah (Persian / Farsi) = Judah (English) / Judas (Roman English)

Yahudah (Hebrew / Ebrani) = Judah (English) / Judas (Roman English)

Yahudah (Aramaic / Aramaya) = Youdas / Ioudas (Greek)

Yahudah (Aramaic / Aramaya) = Yudas / Iudas (Latin)

Yahudi (Arabic / Arabiyy) = Judahite (English)

Yahudi (Persian / Farsi) = Judean (Roman English)

* In the language of Classical Arabic, Yahudi is a TRIBAL appellation, not a GEOGRAPHICAL one. Whereas Huuda is a GEOGRAPHICAL appellation, identical to Nasaara (Nasaraean / Nazarene).

** The English appellation Hodite is derived from the Greek Hodos = Way / Road. It is from Hodos that the Greek word Exhodos or Exodus is derived. Ex = Out + Hodos = Way / Road.

Edited by viceroy, 06 November 2011 - 02:26 PM.

[alimohamad40]

if you see it its not god because its limited and the limited is an effect in itself which needs a cause of its own

[viceroy]

An encyclopaedic excerpt regarding Uzair (Ezra) and his significance within the Huuda (Hodite) community.

[copy-paste]

The apocalyptic Ezra traditions

The apocalyptic fourth book of Ezra (also called the second book of Esdras) was written c.AD 100, probably in Hebrew-Aramaic. It was one of the most important sources for Jewish theology at the end of the 1st century. In this book, Ezra has a seven part prophetic revelation, converses with an angel or God three times and has four visions. Ezra, thirty years into the Babylonian Exile (4 Ezra 3:1 / 2 Esdras 1:1), recounts the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of Solomon's Temple.[2] This would place these revelations in the year 557 BC, a full century before the date given in the canonical Ezra. The central theological themes are "the question of theodicy, God's justness in the face of the triumph of the heathens over the pious, the course of world history in terms of the teaching of the four kingdoms,[10] the function of the law, the eschatological judgment, the appearance on Earth of the heavenly Jerusalem, the Messianic Period, at the end of which the Messiah will die,[11] the end of this world and the coming of the next, and the Last Judgment."[2] Ezra restores the law that was destroyed with the burning of the Temple in Jerusalem. He dictates 24 books for the public (i.e. the Hebrew Bible) and another 70 for the wise alone (70 unnamed revelatory works).[12] At the end, he is taken up to heaven like Enoch and Elijah.[2] Ezra is seen as a new Moses in this book.[2] There is also another work, thought to be influenced by this one, known as the Greek Apocalypse of Ezra.

[end copy-paste]

Edited by viceroy, 06 November 2011 - 11:45 PM.

[viceroy]

[copy-paste]

The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the region synonymous with that defined in modern times was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece. Herodotus wrote of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.[11][12][13][14][15][16] Approximately a century later, Aristotle used a similar definition in Meteorology, writing "Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them," understood by scholars to be a reference to the Dead Sea.[17]

[end copy-paste]

So you see, the outright PATHETIC LIE of pro-Israelis that Palestine was undefined in ancient times is FALSE.

Recognized ancient Greeks such as Herodotus and Aristotle were well aware of PALESTINE (and its ancient geographical boundaries).

In Levantine Arab culture, Palestine and Jordan were always considered extensions of SYRIA. Together, these three geographical regions [Syria-Palestine-Jordan] were identified as SHAM. This is the reason why ARAMAIC (and its dialects) was the indigenous language of both Palestine & Jordan. ARAM is the ancient name of a region of Central Syria.

Only Phoenicia (Ancient Lebanon) was always regarded as a separate country from Syria and its southern provinces: Palestine & Jordan.

There is a solid reason why many modern European and Non-European academicians refer to historio-archaeological studies of Sham (Levant) as SYRO-PALESTINIAN archaeology, instead of the misnomered Biblical archaeology.

Edited by viceroy, 07 November 2011 - 10:36 AM.

[viceroy]

The widespread religious sect of the Huuda (Hodites) eventually left Palestine due to severe persecution by pagan Roman emperor Hadrian in 136 A.D.; contrary to some popular traditions, they were not actually "evicted". The Huuda (Hodites) are the ones who were actually mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, along with the Nasaara (Nasaraeans / Nazarenes) and the Sebomenoi / Sebeoi. The Sebemenoi (Sebeoi) were a monotheistic community called Theo-Sebeia ("God Fearers") who were referred to by Greek manuscripts from the Hellenistic-Roman period, generally considered the same as the Sabians of the Holy Qur'an.

According to Alberto Fratini and Carl Prato, the Quranic Sabaeen & Hellenistic-Roman Sebemenoi corresponded to Ger Toshav of Rabbinical tradition.

The deification of Isa Masih (Jesus Chrestus / Iesous Christos) as the 'Son of God' originated from an extremist element within the Nasaara (Nasaraeans / Nazarenes). This concept transferred to the Greco-Roman world upon their conversion to "Chrisitianity".

Edited by viceroy, 07 November 2011 - 08:26 PM.

[133ali]

You mean, just because we can't see God, He doesn't exist? It seems you have a problem there. Let's talk about His Creations. Every once so often, one finds a new species of plant, insect, animal, bird or marine life, has been discovered; the more powerful telescopes become, the more new strange things we see in the universe, we don't even say this is the only Universe, because it is possible there may be more; even the speed of light as the ultimate speed is being questioned.

Now to quote Sir Isaac Newton, who says that he feels that he is one who is at the seashore picking up and admiring seashells, while the whole ocean remains to be discovered, or something like that.

We accept God to be Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Eternal: without beginning or end, He has complete knowledge of all things hidden or open, He is above needs, He commands and His commands are carried out immediately, He has no shape or body, we cannot even imagine Him, if we imagine Him, he comes into the boundary of our imagination, then what we imagined is not God, because God has no boundaries, and cannot be 'enclosed' in anything.

Angels, Djinns, Spirits, Aliens, etc., are all His creations, which we cannot see, does this mean they don't exist?

You need to take a long critical look at things with an even mind without any prejudices, God Willing, you will come to the correct conclusions about  God, Moses , Tabernacle, Kaaba, Mohammed , and any other thing which creates confusion or doubt in your mind.

Va Menallah Towfiq
Ali

[viceroy]

133ali, on 08 November 2011 - 05:03 AM, said:

You mean, just because we can't see God, He doesn't exist? It seems you have a problem there. Let's talk about His Creations. Every once so often, one finds a new species of plant, insect, animal, bird or marine life, has been discovered; the more powerful telescopes become, the more new strange things we see in the universe, we don't even say this is the only Universe, because it is possible there may be more; even the speed of light as the ultimate speed is being questioned.

Now to quote Sir Isaac Newton, who says that he feels that he is one who is at the seashore picking up and admiring seashells, while the whole ocean remains to be discovered, or something like that.

We accept God to be Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Eternal: without beginning or end, He has complete knowledge of all things hidden or open, He is above needs, He commands and His commands are carried out immediately, He has no shape or body, we cannot even imagine Him, if we imagine Him, he comes into the boundary of our imagination, then what we imagined is not God, because God has no boundaries, and cannot be 'enclosed' in anything.

Angels, Djinns, Spirits, Aliens, etc., are all His creations, which we cannot see, does this mean they don't exist?

You need to take a long critical look at things with an even mind without any prejudices, God Willing, you will come to the correct conclusions about  God, Moses , Tabernacle, Kaaba, Mohammed , and any other thing which creates confusion or doubt in your mind.

Va Menallah Towfiq
Ali

Subhanallah...Very well stated.