134 replies to this topic

[lotfilms]

Basically I have this topic to convince someone I know about the forbidden nature of masturbation (istimna.  aka "the secret habit") and also to strengthen my heart and inshallah to strengthen the hearts of those reading this.

Anyways, we know that people (though I'm specifically talking about males) have three forms of sexual release: wet dreams, masturbation, and sex.

The issue of sex is well documented in the Quran and the Sunnah, so there's no need to go into it.  

So now we go into the issue of wet dreams vs masturbation.  Obviously, the wet dreams are allowed because we are not responsible for our actions in our sleep.  But on what basis is masturbation forbidden in the shariah?  After all, the only difference between masturbation and wet dreams is that you have more control of the former than you have over the latter.  

To say that masturbation is forbidden because you're wasting seamen is incorrect because your body produces an almost infinite supply of seaman, plus you're disposing of seamen every time you have a wet dream or when you pee (though a lot less with the pee).  Plus, if wasting seamen was forbidden, then using condoms, etc. would be forbidden, which it's not.

To say that masturbation is forbidden because you're viewing something with lust is also incorrect.  Males can jerk off to about anything (not necessarily with lust), even to a rock.  Plus, many of us can control our wet dreams and we are thus very conscience of the (sometimes very lewd) content we're watching.  Plus, looking at something with lust is permissible in certain cases, such as when one is with his wife.  Actually, there is arguably more lust with wet dreams, because that is the sole driving force leading to ejaculation.  And actually, there are many times when people have homosexual wet dreams or wet dreams where they see things that horrify them.  Some argue that at you least you have some control of what you see in sex and masturbation.

To say that masturbation is forbidden because it causes physical harm to you has been refuted not only by medicine countless times as well as common sense.  The only difference between sex and masturbation is that you use a vagina in sex and your hand in masturbation, plus there are many precautions one can take to prevent chafing, etc.  If anything, wet dreams can potentially cause the most harm to you.  What if you have a massive erection and roll over in a funny way and snap your penis?

To say that masturbation is forbidden because it emotionally causes harm is also not quite accurate either.  Yes sex is the best method, because you have a partner, but you are alone not only in masturbation, but also with wet dreams.  With both wet dreams and masturbation, you are detached from any partner and are stimulating yourself.  In the case of masturbation, your hand is [primarily[ stimulating you, whereas with wet dreams, your mind is [primarily] stimulating you.  We must also remember that an overwhelming amount of people in the world (something like 97% of males in America) masturbate, so if it really caused problems, there would be a lot of information about such problems, as there is with alcohol, etc.

People say that masturbation is forbidden because the Quran tells us to remain chaste until marriage.  It could well be argued that this is clearly referring to sex with other people.  If it was referring to self-ejaculation then we wouldn't be having wet dreams a couple times a week

People say that masturbation is forbidden because the Prophet told us to fast.  This clearly doesn't mean it's forbidden, because the Prophet is just giving us a good suggestion/alternative.  However, it is unreasonable for us to be expected to fast for 10 years until we can be married, plus certain hadiths forbid us from fast every day, because our bodies have rights over us.

Could anyone else provide please provide sahih hadiths that explicitly say it is forbidden?

Because when we look at masturbation (and especially it's similarity to wet dreams) from a critical angle, it is not as forbidden as people make it out to seem.

I believe there is a hadith from Imam Jafar as-Sadiq saying that it is a detested act?  But then again so is divorce, yet it is halal.

Anyone care to partake in this discussion?  Inshallah someone can please give us an answer of why it is so prohibited.

wa salam and may the Best Guide, God, show us to the best path ameeeen

Edited by lotfilms, 04 May 2009 - 05:45 PM.

[Gulam]

Salams Brother

You made some really interesting points.
I was having a discussion about masturbation a few weeks ago one of the brothers suggested that masturbation was very addictive and that is why it is haram you get so used to masturbating that once you get married you do not fulfil your wife’s desires as you prefer to masturbate.

To me this point made a lot of sense what are your thoughts on it?

[lotfilms]

Gulam, on May 4 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Salams Brother

You made some really interesting points.
I was having a discussion about masturbation a few weeks ago one of the brothers suggested that masturbation was very addictive and that is why it is haram you get so used to masturbating that once you get married you do not fulfil your wife’s desires as you prefer to masturbate.

To me this point made a lot of sense what are your thoughts on it?

The orgasm produced from wet dreams and sex is addicting as well.  The difference is that the wet dreams and sex are more powerful (especially the latter), so it holds off people a bit longer until they "need" the next release.

To say that masturbating should be forbidden because it is addictive is a half-truth imo.  Yes it is addictive, but sex is far more addictive because of all of the other elements involved.  The difference is that masturbation is far more accessible than sex (it's with you wherever you are lol).   But to forbid it because we become addicted to sexual release defies they way we were made.  Obviously, when it becomes a problem, then it is forbidden.  Likewise, certain ulema allow smoking unless one is sure that it will cause them harm (however, I agree with Fadhallah's view that it is haram, because it DOES cause addiction and harm)

However, there is a difference between a craving that you body NEEDS (sexual), rather than an external craving(smoking).  If your body doesn't release itself through sex or masturbation, then it will find a way through wet dreams; either way it's going to suppress that craving.

Inshallah other brothers will provide their opinions and will inshallah provide basis's for their reasons and inshallah I'll give my opinion on the matter in a few days.

[Tayyeb_Jaan]

Note to Mods: Do not close topic.

http://sistani.org/l...a...d=5&cid=494

Contact the Marja

Edited by Tayyeb_Jaan, 04 May 2009 - 06:04 PM.

[Learned]

lotfilms, on May 4 2009, 06:08 PM, said:

Basically I have this topic to convince someone I know about the forbidden nature of masturbation (istimna.  aka "the secret habit") and also to strengthen my heart and inshallah to strengthen the hearts of those reading this.

Anyways, we know that people (though I'm specifically talking about males) have three forms of sexual release: wet dreams, masturbation, and sex.

The issue of sex is well documented in the Quran and the Sunnah, so there's no need to go into it.

Fine.

Quote

So now we go into the issue of wet dreams vs masturbation.  Obviously, the wet dreams are allowed because we are not responsible for our actions in our sleep.  But on what basis is masturbation forbidden in the shariah?  After all, the only difference between masturbation and wet dreams is that you have more control of the former than you have over the latter.

On what basis is seafood without scales or fins forbidden? Not everything in Islam is forbidden on a specific basis.

Here is what the Sharia says: Masturbation is defined as the act of willful self-stimulation to the point of ejaculation. This is what is haram. Some scholars also suggest that if the ejaculation of fluid isn't accompanied by an orgasm (such as is the case with pre-cum), this is also haram. Scholars can try to find physiological, psychological, and moral reasonings for why masturbation is haram, as it is defined by in Islam, but such an exercise is in reality only an attempt to explain an edict, and not part of the edict itself.

Quote

To say that masturbation is forbidden because you're wasting seamen is incorrect because your body produces an almost infinite supply of seaman, plus you're disposing of seamen every time you have a wet dream or when you pee (though a lot less with the pee).  Plus, if wasting seamen was forbidden, then using condoms, etc. would be forbidden, which it's not.

It isn't forbidden because you are wasting anything. It is simply forbidden. There is no "because".

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To say that masturbation is forbidden because you're viewing something with lust is also incorrect.  Males can jerk off to about anything (not necessarily with lust), even to a rock.

I have no idea what this even means, but it sounds extremely disturbed.

Quote

Plus, many of us can control our wet dreams and we are thus very conscience of the (sometimes very lewd) content we're watching.

We are conscious and in control of what we're watching ... in our dreams? I don't agree. There is a huge difference between dreaming about doing something, and actually doing that thing when you are awake, conscious, fully cognizant about what it is that you are doing. Plus, dreams are complex phenomenon that are the product of many things, including our lusts, desires, guilt, fears, and other aspects in the emotional sense, just as they are the product of electrochemical reactions in our mind and body in the physiological sense. There are many theories that attempt to explain how and why we dream what we dream that stem from psychological and biochemical standpoints, and wherever the truth about dreams lies, suggesting that they are in our control is a false insinuation. We have no more control over our dreams than we do over our emotional and psychological state of being, or over the way our bodies function on the physiological level.

Quote

Plus, looking at something with lust is permissible in certain cases, such as when one is with his wife.  Actually, there is arguably more lust with wet dreams, because that is the sole driving force leading to ejaculation.  And actually, there are many times when people have homosexual wet dreams or wet dreams where they see things that horrify them.  Some argue that at you least you have some control of what you see in sex and masturbation.

Regardless of how lustful or unlustful dreams may be, this has nothing to do with why masturbation is haram and wet dreams aren't. Lust is a natural thing, even human experiences it in one form or another whether they admit it or not, and all Islam does is to set the conditions and circumstances when acting on lust is halal, and when it is haram.

Quote

To say that masturbation is forbidden because it causes physical harm to you has been refuted not only by medicine countless times as well as common sense.  The only difference between sex and masturbation is that you use a vagina in sex and your hand in masturbation, plus there are many precautions one can take to prevent chafing, etc.  If anything, wet dreams can potentially cause the most harm to you.  What if you have a massive erection and roll over in a funny way and snap your penis?

The first sentence was all you needed there. The rest is unnecessarily descriptive.

Quote

To say that masturbation is forbidden because it emotionally causes harm is also not quite accurate either.  Yes sex is the best method, because you have a partner, but you are alone not only in masturbation, but also with wet dreams.  With both wet dreams and masturbation, you are detached from any partner and are stimulating yourself.  In the case of masturbation, your hand is [primarily[ stimulating you, whereas with wet dreams, your mind is [primarily] stimulating you.  We must also remember that an overwhelming amount of people in the world (something like 97% of males in America) masturbate, so if it really caused problems, there would be a lot of information about such problems, as there is with alcohol, etc.

To repeat the ultimate point here, masturbation is defined in a specific way, and anything that meets that definition is haram. There is no "why" or "because" behind the edict. It simply is. The difference between masturbation and wet dreams is that the former is a willful, conscious act, and the latter isn't. Wet dreams are the body's natural method of relieving sexual urges, frustration, and desires in the emotional sense, and also serve a physical and functional benefit for the body in the physiological sense, which I will avoid explaining the details of. For this reason, they can be viewed within the context of normal bodily function for post-pubescent males. They are something that every male experiences, some more frequent than others, and are perfectly natural.

Quote

People say that masturbation is forbidden because the Quran tells us to remain chaste until marriage.  It could well be argued that this is clearly referring to sex with other people.  If it was referring to self-ejaculation then we wouldn't be having wet dreams a couple times a week.

Not really. Scholars have cited jurisprudential evidence for interpreting masturbation as a form of zina, and therefore in the opinion of some scholars, maintaining chastity isn't only referring to sex with other individuals. Chastity really is more about the self than it is about what one does with others in any context, whether explicitly sexual or not. As with everything in Islam, it is about the intention.

Quote

People say that masturbation is forbidden because the Prophet told us to fast.  This clearly doesn't mean it's forbidden, because the Prophet is just giving us a good suggestion/alternative.  However, it is unreasonable for us to be expected to fast for 10 years until we can be married, plus certain hadiths forbid us from fast every day, because our bodies have rights over us.

Not sure what you mean here, but it doesn't sound very relevant.

Quote

Because when we look at masturbation (and especially it's similarity to wet dreams) from a critical angle, it is not as forbidden as people make it out to seem.

If this is the point of your post (which seems to be the case), then you have no idea what you're talking about. If we look at it from a critical angle, masturbation is a precisely defined action in the jurisprudential sense, and anything that meets the definition is haram.

[lotfilms]

Learned, on May 4 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

On what basis is seafood without scales or fins forbidden?

It's not forbidden per say:
æÚäå ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãä Èä ÃÈí äÌÑÇä ¡ Úä ÚÇÕã Èä ÍãíÏ ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã ¡ ÞÇá : ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Úä ÇáÌÑøí æÇáãÇÑãÇåí æÇáÒãíÑ ¡ ( æãÇ áíÓ áå ÞÔÑ ) ãä ÇáÓãß ÃÍÑÇã åæ ¿ ÝÞÇá áí : íÇ ãÍãÏ ! ÇÞÑà åÐå ÇáÇíÉ ÇáÊí Ýí ÇáÇäÚÇã : ( Þá áÇ ÃÌÏ ÝíãÇ ÇæÍí Çáíø ãÍÑãÇ ) ÞÇá : ÝÞÑÃÊåÇ ÍÊì ÝÑÛÊ ãäåÇ ¡ ÝÞÇá : ÇäãÇ ÇáÍÑÇã ãÇ ÍÑã Çááå æÑÓæáå Ýí ßÊÇÈå ¡ æáßäåã ÞÏ ßÇäæÇ íÚÇÝæä ÃÔíÇÁ ¡ ÝäÍä äÚÇÝåÇ

"we are averse to them" being the key words.  Ayatollah Fadhallah has recently downgraded the prohibitation of fish without scales from "obligatory precaution" to "recommended precaution", I agree with this on the basis of that hadith.

Learned, on May 4 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

Here is what the Sharia says: Masturbation is defined as the act of willful self-stimulation to the point of ejaculation. This is what is haram. Some scholars also suggest that if the ejaculation of fluid isn't accompanied by an orgasm (such as is the case with pre-cum), this is also haram.

As for your first point, indeed, but what makes it haram?

As for your second point, there are times when precum comes out when a person has a spontaneous erection, beyond their control (we all get them, even without any stimulation), so it can't be haram, unless it is a result of the first point, assuming the first point is haram

Learned, on May 4 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

It isn't forbidden because you are wasting anything. It is simply forbidden. There is no "because".

There is always a "because" for every single ruling in the sharia.  

Learned, on May 4 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

I have no idea what this even means, but it sounds extremely disturbed.

It means that masturbation can occur without lust

Learned, on May 4 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

We are conscious and in control of what we're watching ... in our dreams? I don't agree. There is a huge difference between dreaming about doing something, and actually doing that thing when you are awake, conscious, fully cognizant about what it is that you are doing. Plus, dreams are complex phenomenon that are the product of many things, including our lusts, desires, guilt, fears, and other aspects in the emotional sense, just as they are the product of electrochemical reactions in our mind and body in the physiological sense. There are many theories that attempt to explain how and why we dream what we dream that stem from psychological and biochemical standpoints, and wherever the truth about dreams lies, suggesting that they are in our control is a false insinuation. We have no more control over our dreams than we do over our emotional and psychological state of being, or over the way our bodies function on the physiological level.

Nevertheless, there are many people who can often control their dreams and actions while they're asleep.  I'm not talking about mystic,s im talking about normal people

Learned, on May 4 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

Not really. Scholars have cited jurisprudential evidence for interpreting masturbation as a form of zina

Could you perhaps quote such jurisprudential evidence?

Learned, on May 4 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

If this is the point of your post (which seems to be the case), then you have no idea what you're talking about. If we look at it from a critical angle, masturbation is a precisely defined action in the jurisprudential sense, and anything that meets the definition is haram.

I never said it's not defined; I said that there appears to be a lack of basis for such a definition.

As I said, inshallah I'll give my opinion in a couple days.  Inshallah this will be a good discussion


Also, I encourage members to please not get discouraged and to please refrain from this habit until all is explained inshallah

wa salam

[JawzofDETH]

This is my opinion.
or imo as the kids are saying these days.

Addressing masturbation. I feel you are deluding yourself if you think people can masturbate to anything,
it is an organ that is designed to be stimulated by certain 'things.' Yes, you could perhaps go and masturbate
without giving thought to it, but the bottom-line is that the degree of stimulation is sexually provoked.

Secondly, I would say it is spiritually harmful because the area of your soul responsible for your various appetites
Al-Quwwah-Al-Shahwiyyah or The Faculty of Desires can become animalistic or out of control. Worst of all if you
are imagining a female or "an act" while you are masturbating, then you are misusing another area of your soul
and that is the Faculty of Imagination. If you imagine evil deliberately and in a sustained manner, you derive sin
for that.

The problems with it are for instance if you are feeling like satisfying yourself, then that's just what you will do, it
will make married life harder for you seeing that you'll want to be satisfied whenever YOU want to and not when
it is the appropriate time or ideal circumstance, i.e if your spouse has her periods or is in advanced pregnancy,
you could resort back to 'taking matters into your own hands' (Pardon the expression)

There is a good remedy for young people in Muta. It's a pity that females are less willing to engage in it.
It would solve all your woes if you could find someone.

Muta is so beautiful if you think about it, it means however that you have to accord the female the same kinds of
respect that you would your permanent wife. Then it works and is beautiful at the same time.
Otherwise it becomes something ugly.

Anyway, the difference between the two is that in Muta you are fearing Allah (SWT) first, then getting what you want,
but with masturbation you are getting a mirage of what you really need.

[lotfilms]

JawzofDETH, on May 4 2009, 07:24 PM, said:

I would say it is spiritually harmful

In my opinion on masturbation, I think you are on the right track

[Learned]

lotfilms, on May 4 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

It's not forbidden per say:
æÚäå ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãä Èä ÃÈí äÌÑÇä ¡ Úä ÚÇÕã Èä ÍãíÏ ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã ¡ ÞÇá : ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Úä ÇáÌÑøí æÇáãÇÑãÇåí æÇáÒãíÑ ¡ ( æãÇ áíÓ áå ÞÔÑ ) ãä ÇáÓãß ÃÍÑÇã åæ ¿ ÝÞÇá áí : íÇ ãÍãÏ ! ÇÞÑà åÐå ÇáÇíÉ ÇáÊí Ýí ÇáÇäÚÇã : ( Þá áÇ ÃÌÏ ÝíãÇ ÇæÍí Çáíø ãÍÑãÇ ) ÞÇá : ÝÞÑÃÊåÇ ÍÊì ÝÑÛÊ ãäåÇ ¡ ÝÞÇá : ÇäãÇ ÇáÍÑÇã ãÇ ÍÑã Çááå æÑÓæáå Ýí ßÊÇÈå ¡ æáßäåã ÞÏ ßÇäæÇ íÚÇÝæä ÃÔíÇÁ ¡ ÝäÍä äÚÇÝåÇ

"we are averse to them" being the key words.  Ayatollah Fadhallah has recently downgraded the prohibitation of fish without scales from "obligatory precaution" to "recommended precaution", I agree with this on the basis of that hadith.

Ayatollah Fadlallah also allows masturbation in the case of females because according to him, they do not ejaculate. In the same breath, he gives all the moral reasons that other scholars do as to why it isn't a good act, but according to him, masturbation for women doesn't meet the technical details that make it haram for men. Hence my point. There isn't a "because" as to why it is haram. The edict is defined in a precise way, and even according to Ayatollah Fadlallah, the "because" behind it, which applies to men and women equally, isn't enough to make it haram for women in his judgment, because it doesn't meet the conditions of the definition itself.

Quote

As for your first point, indeed, but what makes it haram?

You can continue to insist all you want that it must be haram "because" of something, but in reality that isn't the case here. It is forbidden, regardless of the reasons one can cite to support forbidding it.

Quote

As for your second point, there are times when precum comes out when a person has a spontaneous erection, beyond their control (we all get them, even without any stimulation), so it can't be haram, unless it is a result of the first point, assuming the first point is haram

As I stated earlier, according to Sharia it is defined as pre-cum that is excreted as a product of willful self-stimulation.

Quote

There is always a "because" for every single ruling in the sharia.

Not true. Many times the justifications and reasoning's that scholars cite are the product of thier own pontifications and opinions on the matter, which they try to support with scientific and moral explanations, but they do not have basis in Qur'an or hadeeth.

Quote

It means that masturbation can occur without lust

I don't know if that's true or not, and I still don't understand what you mean, but it doesn't matter. Masturbation isn't haram because of lust. It is simply haram.

Quote

Nevertheless, there are many people who can often control their dreams and actions while they're asleep.  I'm not talking about mystic,s im talking about normal people

Do you have scientific evidence for this?

Quote

Could you perhaps quote such jurisprudential evidence?

Sorry, I don't have the references for you, but I've read ahadeeth for the Prophet and Imams saying things like lustful glances is adultery of the eyes, carrying on an indecent conversation with a non-mahram is adultery of the ears and tongue, and masturbation is adultery of the hands. Other ahadeeth for the Prophet and Imams say that masturbating is like committing adultery with oneself.

Perhaps someone who knows the actual references can post them.

Quote

I never said it's not defined; I said that there appears to be a lack of basis for such a definition.

Not really, Ulama have pontificated at length on the moral reasoning's as to why it being haram is justified, including Ayatollah Fadlallah whom you mentioned earlier, but the fact remains that it isn't haram because of the reasoning's that are cited by scholars. It is simply defined as being haram.

Quote

As I said, inshallah I'll give my opinion in a couple days.  Inshallah this will be a good discussion


Also, I encourage members to please not get discouraged and to please refrain from this habit until all is explained inshallah

Are you serious right now? Not to get discouraged?  Refrain from this habit until all is explained? Who are you to explain? If you intend to provide opinionated justifications as to why masturbation should be allowed, let me know right now so I can send this thread to the trash bin and suspend you.

Edited by Learned, 04 May 2009 - 07:15 PM.

[doodles]

Doesn't matter if you can masturbate to a rock or whatever, at some point you'll want something more satisfying and it will inevitably lead you to pornography and other lustful thoughts which would be haraam. True almost all americans might masturbate and it doesn't seem to harm their health (not sure if anyone's actually done a study on this though), but remember the country in question here lol. I'm sure masturbation (and the very closely associated - pornography) have played a big part in how messed up their social culture is and how it's getting worse.

Edit: and btw, I think when you say "people who control their dreams" you mean lucid dreaming. Which is apparently something you can train yourself to do. But I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that this is haraam as well.

Edited by doodles, 04 May 2009 - 07:18 PM.

[macisaac]

lotfilms, on May 4 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

There is always a "because" for every single ruling in the sharia.

Yes, but there's two meanings to that statement, and they're not to be confounded.  One is the proof of the ruling, the other is the reason for the rule.  As to the first, there must be proof for every ruling (weak or strong) of the jurist.  That is, the jurist is not allowed to simply make stuff up on the basis of his personal opinion and call it Shari`a, there must be some type of evidence from the sources of Shari`a itself.  However, that evidencing does not necessitate knowing (even for the jurist) the reason for the rule itself.  That is, the jurist may know on the basis of Y evidence that Z is haram.  The reason why it has been made haram in the Shari`a itself is X.  X may or may not be known to the jurist.  As Allah is wise and just we can know that all of the laws of the religion He has ordained for us have a wisdom to them, but we may not (or may) know what that reason is.  Even if we do not know the reason though, if the rule itself is proven by evidence that it is so (from the Shari`a that is), then we are obligated to follow it.

[jund_el_Mahdi]

On top of what others said, some ulama have also told me that it is basically having sex with one's self, and they explain to me that sex is only halal between a husband and wife, period.

Also many ulama say that if were allowed it would've explicitly been mentioned in  " "The believers are... those who protect their sexual organs except from their spouses and those whom their right hands possess... Therefore, whosoever seeks more beyond that [in sexual gratification], then they are the transgressors."

The last sentence makes it very clear that any sexual gratification outside marriage is considered a transgression of the law of God.

From al-islam.org:

These days some scientists are telling us that there is no harm in masturbation, rather it is a natural act. To prove that it is natural, they give examples of some wild animals, like monkeys. Actually they represent those who have gone to the other extreme of sexual morality. They have degraded human beings to the level of wild animals, and then justify their deeds by finding examples in the animal world. They are, in Qur'anic expression, "like cattle, nay they are more astray; they are the heedless ones." (7: 179)

The irony is that when Muslims talk about following Islam which came just 1400 years ago, they are labeled by the secularists as 'reactionaries,' 'those who want to turn the clock backwards,' 'anti -progress,' and now these very people are going millions of years back (according to their own counting) and following the wild animals or the primitive societies to determine what is natural for us and what is not natural!

Sometimes the scientists justify masturbation by saying that many people do it! But if a majority does something, it does not automatically prove that it is right. Otherwise, drugs should also be declared 'normal' because the majority of Americans, at one time or another, took drugs. The surveys made by sexologists like Kinsey, Masters and Johnson, and the Hite Report just reveal what the American people do in the privacy of their bedroom; it does not necessarily prove that what they do is natural and right!

Many modern psychologists say that masturbation is just like normal sexual intercourse, rather even better because you are master of yourself, you don't have to worry about your partner's feelings! This is an example of how low the materialist society has sunk into its self-centered and selfish attitude that even in sex it prefers to seek self-gratification with the exclusion of the spouse. "They seem to forget that in sexual intercourse all the senses contribute to the stimulation and orgasm: Man and woman see their partner, touch each other, say endearing words to each other and hear the stimulating sounds; and even the senses of smell and taste are utilized. And the penetration of male organ into the female leads to the final excitement and orgasm. But in masturbation the only source of stimulation is imagination, in which no other sense takes any part. The whole burden is loaded upon the mind; and, as a result, while normal sexual intercourse causes happiness and joy, masturbation creates emotional and psychological depression." (Rizvi, S.S.A., Your Questions Answered, vol. 3, p. 40-1)

This is not just an opinion of a Muslim scholar. Even the Hite Report on Male Sexuality, says: "Similarly, many men said that they enjoyed masturbating physically, but that emotionally it was depressing." (The Hite Report on Male Sexuality, p. 489) In one of the replies, a man writes: "It is physically enjoyable, but it can leave one emotionally empty or lonely for the real thing. You can do it when you feel like it, come when you want, bring up your own images, but there is no warmth or closeness, no one to share pleasure with, no companionship. . . "(The Hite Report on Male Sexuality, p. 489) After saying that the physical effects of masturbation are negligible, Leslie D. Weatherhead in The Mastery of Sex writes: "Psychologically the results are more serious. Masturbation in the adult is nearly always due to a maladjustment..." (The Mastery of Sex, p. 103)

Edited by jund_el_Mahdi, 04 May 2009 - 08:45 PM.

[lotfilms]

macisaac, on May 4 2009, 09:20 PM, said:

Yes, but there's two meanings to that statement, and they're not to be confounded.  One is the proof of the ruling, the other is the reason for the rule.  As to the first, there must be proof for every ruling (weak or strong) of the jurist.  That is, the jurist is not allowed to simply make stuff up on the basis of his personal opinion and call it Shari`a, there must be some type of evidence from the sources of Shari`a itself.  However, that evidencing does not necessitate knowing (even for the jurist) the reason for the rule itself.  That is, the jurist may know on the basis of Y evidence that Z is haram.  The reason why it has been made haram in the Shari`a itself is X.  X may or may not be known to the jurist.  As Allah is wise and just we can know that all of the laws of the religion He has ordained for us have a wisdom to them, but we may not (or may) know what that reason is.  Even if we do not know the reason though, if the rule itself is proven by evidence that it is so (from the Shari`a that is), then we are obligated to follow it.

I believe in cases like this, we could perhaps refer to theories such as that of Zuhur al 'Urfi in Usul?  I believe on that basis we can easily say that masturbation is forbidden when we analyze it from such an angle.

Also, what's your opinion on this matter?


Because a certain person has decided to threaten me, perhaps I should give my opinion on this now.  However, even if I were to argue that istimna was allowed, I don't see what the problem is, because it allows people to argue me, defeat me, and strengthen their hearts and use those tactics when they encounter such a debate.

So, I ask everyone who faces this problem (because there are many youths suffering from this addiction, yet there's seldom a real discussion analyzing it from all angels), let us assume it's not haram.  Is it befitting for a Muslim do to such an act?  Did any of the people we admire do it?  Did the Prophet do it?  How bout the Imams ?  How bout the great scholars ?  

Assuming it is not haram, which is better, fulfilling those demanding desires or struggling a little bit for God?  Purifying yourself for God?

Inshallah we can analyze this topic from the spiritual point of view tomorrow.  It's getting late where I am... sorry guys

JawzofDETH's and macisaac's responses are the step in the right direction imo.  Because when we go around telling kids exaggerations like it'll make them grow hair on their palms or w/e, they'll be scared at first, but they'll eventually get over it.  I've noticed that kids who do research often come up with the conclusions I put in my first post.  Inshallah this topic can fully understand this issue from all angels.  It's one thing to believe in something; it's another to be completely intellectually convinced by it (something I paraphrased from Hamid Algar's book of Khomeini's sayings)

wa salam

[fadakfatema]

What can a person do if by doing muta one is putting oneself in loosing repect in the eyes of others and to do nikah is not possible?

So is it better to do muta and loose respect?

[baradar_jackson]

Brother,
It is psychologically addictive, that is why it is forbidden. And it serves no purpose.

[Ali Huzaifa]

Muslims are suppose to adopt habits of prophets...so it is forbiden coz morally this act is wrong.

[Musa]

it kills your spirit. the end?

[khaydar]

Try and do a search on "western" relationship forums that give sex advice, marriage advice and the kind. There are a few online. Go to any topics that relate to masturbation and see the effects for yourselves. What all the information leads to is that eventually, masturbation (for men) will seriously  and negatively affect your life in some way once you do get a partner.

[ShiaSoldier@2007]

lotfilms, on May 4 2009, 06:08 PM, said:

Basically I have this topic to convince someone I know about the forbidden nature of masturbation (istimna.  aka "the secret habit") and also to strengthen my heart and inshallah to strengthen the hearts of those reading this.

Anyways, we know that people (though I'm specifically talking about males) have three forms of sexual release: wet dreams, masturbation, and sex.

The issue of sex is well documented in the Quran and the Sunnah, so there's no need to go into it.  

So now we go into the issue of wet dreams vs masturbation.  Obviously, the wet dreams are allowed because we are not responsible for our actions in our sleep.  But on what basis is masturbation forbidden in the shariah?  After all, the only difference between masturbation and wet dreams is that you have more control of the former than you have over the latter.  

To say that masturbation is forbidden because you're wasting seamen is incorrect because your body produces an almost infinite supply of seaman, plus you're disposing of seamen every time you have a wet dream or when you pee (though a lot less with the pee).  Plus, if wasting seamen was forbidden, then using condoms, etc. would be forbidden, which it's not.

To say that masturbation is forbidden because you're viewing something with lust is also incorrect.  Males can jerk off to about anything (not necessarily with lust), even to a rock.  Plus, many of us can control our wet dreams and we are thus very conscience of the (sometimes very lewd) content we're watching.  Plus, looking at something with lust is permissible in certain cases, such as when one is with his wife.  Actually, there is arguably more lust with wet dreams, because that is the sole driving force leading to ejaculation.  And actually, there are many times when people have homosexual wet dreams or wet dreams where they see things that horrify them.  Some argue that at you least you have some control of what you see in sex and masturbation.

To say that masturbation is forbidden because it causes physical harm to you has been refuted not only by medicine countless times as well as common sense.  The only difference between sex and masturbation is that you use a vagina in sex and your hand in masturbation, plus there are many precautions one can take to prevent chafing, etc.  If anything, wet dreams can potentially cause the most harm to you.  What if you have a massive erection and roll over in a funny way and snap your penis?

To say that masturbation is forbidden because it emotionally causes harm is also not quite accurate either.  Yes sex is the best method, because you have a partner, but you are alone not only in masturbation, but also with wet dreams.  With both wet dreams and masturbation, you are detached from any partner and are stimulating yourself.  In the case of masturbation, your hand is [primarily[ stimulating you, whereas with wet dreams, your mind is [primarily] stimulating you.  We must also remember that an overwhelming amount of people in the world (something like 97% of males in America) masturbate, so if it really caused problems, there would be a lot of information about such problems, as there is with alcohol, etc.

People say that masturbation is forbidden because the Quran tells us to remain chaste until marriage.  It could well be argued that this is clearly referring to sex with other people.  If it was referring to self-ejaculation then we wouldn't be having wet dreams a couple times a week

People say that masturbation is forbidden because the Prophet told us to fast.  This clearly doesn't mean it's forbidden, because the Prophet is just giving us a good suggestion/alternative.  However, it is unreasonable for us to be expected to fast for 10 years until we can be married, plus certain hadiths forbid us from fast every day, because our bodies have rights over us.

Could anyone else provide please provide sahih hadiths that explicitly say it is forbidden?

Because when we look at masturbation (and especially it's similarity to wet dreams) from a critical angle, it is not as forbidden as people make it out to seem.

I believe there is a hadith from Imam Jafar as-Sadiq saying that it is a detested act?  But then again so is divorce, yet it is halal.

Anyone care to partake in this discussion?  Inshallah someone can please give us an answer of why it is so prohibited.

wa salam and may the Best Guide, God, show us to the best path ameeeen

  

Thank you for spending your time to type the post, it makes for a healthy discussion. Before we jump to any conclusions we must ask ourselves, would Imam/Prophet do it?

[(_Sijistani_)]

khaydar, on May 5 2009, 07:46 AM, said:

Try and do a search on "western" relationship forums that give sex advice, marriage advice and the kind. There are a few online. Go to any topics that relate to masturbation and see the effects for yourselves. What all the information leads to is that eventually, masturbation (for men) will seriously  and negatively affect your life in some way once you do get a partner.

I think macisaac has answered this thread. So, this thread can progress ahead from his post rather than the earlier ones. That would make this thread most beneficial.

[lotfilms]

Ali Huzaifa, on May 5 2009, 04:04 AM, said:

Muslims are suppose to adopt habits of prophets...so it is forbiden coz morally this act is wrong.

ShiaSoldier@2007, on May 5 2009, 08:03 AM, said:

  

Thank you for spending your time to type the post, it makes for a healthy discussion. Before we jump to any conclusions we must ask ourselves, would Imam/Prophet do it?

It helps to read the whole topic first:

lotfilms, on May 4 2009, 09:58 PM, said:

So, I ask everyone who faces this problem (because there are many youths suffering from this addiction, yet there's seldom a real discussion analyzing it from all angels), let us assume it's not haram.  Is it befitting for a Muslim do to such an act?  Did any of the people we admire do it?  Did the Prophet do it?  How bout the Imams ?  How bout the great scholars ?

And regarding it's consequences, though the negative (physical) effects are grossly overstated (and some are outright lies), there is a definite negative affect that is most blatantly noticeable when a person experiences both a lot of wet dreams and istimna.  After some time with wet dreams, people tend to resort to masturbation.  After some time with masturbation, they realize it's lost any meaning and enjoyment.  It gets to the point where it's as passive as using the bathroom.  Some try to resort back to wet dreams (but it takes several weeks, sometimes even months of abstinence), whereas others "take the next step" and have sex.

The after-effects are very noticeable as well.  So, while the act of masturbating may more enjoyable than wet dreams, the spring-in-step effect one gets after have wet dreams is more rewarding and enjoyable than the cold, dull (almost stoned-liked) feeling one gets from masturbating, especially when one has been doing it for awhile.  

Furthermore, I've noticed a definite change in outlook of life from when I used to get wet dreams(early teens) to when I used to masturbate (midteens), to when I was finally able to give that up and receive wet dreams again (all praise is due to the Lord of the Worlds).  The "mid teen" years were all about me.  I didn't view things as their relation to others or to their relation to God, but rather as their relation to me.  And idk, I now feel a lot more active, brighter, and I often feel this really good energy whenever I pray than when I was engaged in the secret habit.  

So it does have a definite spiritual effect, however I would definitely like to further research and understand this, if anyone could help (or give their opinions)

wa salam

[jund_el_Mahdi]

lotfilms, on May 5 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

So it does have a definite spiritual effect, however I would definitely like to further research and understand this, if anyone could help (or give their opinions)

wa salam

I tried to post some info...did you read it?

[lotfilms]

jund_el_Mahdi, on May 5 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

I tried to post some info...did you read it?

I disagreed with aspects of the first part, but the second part was really good.  Jazakallah khair bro

wa salam

[Darth Vader]

If there was nothing wrong with masturbation, somehow, and if it was deemed allowable in religion I'm sure there would be many people who would have simply avoided marriage altogether. There would be so less chaos and population crisis in the world and women would either be much better off or far worse if sex was a more subtle thing than it is. Condoms help but still . . .

I'm sorry if my post offends someone but its just how I feel now after having my freedom usurped by marriage, my simple plan of being a lone drifter flushed down the drain for good, and to top it off, I have to make so much more money to educate and feed my family and take care of all their needs. Sometimes I feel like a mule pulling a mighty heavy cart. But hey, the reward in the afterlife is worth it, right?

And if I don't consider religion, then I would just shoot myself because I would have done it in hopes of romance and having sex and in the foolish idea that my children would help me out somehow and augment my person which, knowing today's soceity, ain't gona happen. I would only have made a monumentally terrible deal if it were not for the reward for obedience that religion has to offer for it.

And if I could, I would simply shut down all sexual drive in me and be a very peaceful and enviable person who is completely free to do with life what he may please without having to hog himself so considerably due to sexual needs. But it can't be shut down, by far. It's a horrific, returning disease that controls, coccoons and abominates your life eventually. It's only purpose is the continuity of our race. Tough luck.

[lotfilms]

Ibrahim Nakhaee, on May 5 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

If there was nothing wrong with masturbation, somehow, and if it was deemed allowable in religion I'm sure there would be many people who would have simply avoided marriage altogether. There would be so less chaos and population crisis in the world and women would either be much better off or far worse if sex was a more subtle thing than it is. Condoms help but still . . .

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`Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Ishaq b. `Ammar.  He said:  Abu `Abdillah said:  From the akhlaq of the prophets, Allah bless them, is the love of women.



9440 – 2 - ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì ÇáÚØÇÑ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍßã¡ Úä ÃÈÇä Èä ÚËãÇä Úä ÚãÑÈä íÒíÏ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) ÞÇá: ãÇ ÃÙä ÑÌáÇ íÒÏÇÏ Ýí ÇáÇíãÇä ÎíÑÇ ÅáÇ ÇÒÏÇÏ ÍÈÇ ááäÓÇÁ.



Muhammad b. Yahya al-`Attar from `Abdullah b. Muhammad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from Aban b. `Uthman from `Umar b. Yazid from Abu `Abdillah . He said:  I do not reckon that a man shall increase goodly in iman until he increases in love of women.


9441 - 3 - ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì¡ Úä ãÚãÑÈä ÎáÇÏ ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ Úáí ÇÈä ãæÓì ÇáÑÖÇ (Ú) íÞæá: ËáÇË ãä Óää ÇáãÑÓáíä: ÇáÚØÑ æÃÎÐ ÇáÔÚÑ æßËÑÉ ÇáØÑæÞÉ. (1)



Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Mu`ammar b. Khallad.  He said:  I heard `Ali b. Musa ar-Rida saying: Three are from the sunan of the mursaleen:  `atar, removal of hair, and much taruqa*.

(understood as an expression for marriage, sex)



9442 - 4 - ãÍãÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá¡ Úä ÇáÝÖá Èä ÔÇÐÇä¡ æÚáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã¡ Úä ÇÈíå ÌãíÚÇ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ¡ Úä ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä ÚÈÏÇáÍãíÏ¡ Úä Óßíä ÇáäÎÚí æßÇä ÊÚÈÏ æÊÑß ÇáäÓÇÁ æ ÇáØíÈ æÇáØÚÇã ÝßÊÈ Åáì ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) íÓÃáå Úä Ðáß ÝßÊÈ Åáíå: ÃãÇÞæáß Ýí ÇáäÓÇÁ ÝÞÏ ÚáãÊ ãÇ ßÇä áÑÓæá Çááå (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå) ãä ÇáäÓÇÁ æÃãÇ Þæáß Ýí ÇáØÚÇã ÝßÇä ÑÓæá Çááå (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå) íÃßá ÇááÍã æÇáÚÓá.

Muhammad b. Isma`il from al-Fadl b. Shadhan, and `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father, all of them from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Ibrahim b. `Abd al-Hamid from Sukayn an-Nak`i, and he used to worship and forgo women, and perfume, and food.  So he wrote to Abu `Abdillah asking about that.  So he wrote to him:  As to you saying regarding women, then you have known about the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and his family, with regards to women.   And as to your saying about food, then the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and his family, would eat meat and honey.





9443 - 5 - Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÕÇáÍ Èä ÇáÓäÏí¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ÈÔíÑ¡ Úä ÃÈÇä¡ Úä ÚãÑÈä íÒíÏ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) ÞÇá: ãÇ ÃÙä ÑÌáÇ íÒÏÇÏ Ýí åÐÇ ÇáÇãÑ ÎíÑÇ ÅáÇ ÇÒÏÇÏ ÍÈÇ ááäÓÇÁ (1).



`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Salih b. as-Sindi from Ja`far b. Bashir from Aban from `Umar b. Yazid from  Abu `Abdillah .  He said:  I do not reckon that a man will goodly increase in this affair until he increases in love of women.


9444 - 6 - Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ¡ Úä ÍÝÕ Èä ÇáÈÎÊÑí¡¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) ÞÇá: ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå): ãÇ ÇÍÈ ãä ÏäíÇßã ÅáÇ ÇáäÓÇÁ æÇáØíÈ.



`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father form Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hafs b. al-Bakhtari from Abu `Abdillah .  He said:  The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and his family, said:  I do not love anything from your dunya except for women and perfume.


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Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Bakkar b. Kardam and more than one, from Abu `Abdillah .  He said: The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and his family, said:  The coolness of my eye has been placed in the salat, and my pleasure in women.


9446 - 8 - ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÓáãÉ Èä ÇáÎØÇÈ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÍÓÇä¡ Úä ÈÚÖ ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ ÞÇá: ÓÃáäÇ ÃÈæÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) Ãí ÇáÇÔíÇÁ Çáп ÞÇá: ÝÞáäÇ ÛíÑ ÔÆ¡ ÝÞÇá åæ (Ú): ÃáÐ ÇáÇÔíÇÁ ãÈÇÖÚÉ ÇáäÓÇÁ (4).



Muhammad b. Yahya from Salma b. al-Khattab from `Ali b. Hassan from some of his companions.  He said:  Abu `Abdillah asked us:  What of things is most pleasurable?  He said:  So we said:  Other than a thing.  So he said:  The most pleasurable thing is sex with women.



7 944 - 9 - ÇáÍÓíä Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ãÚáì Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí¡ Úä ÍãÇÏ Èä ÚËãÇä¡ Úä ÚãÑÈä íÒíÏ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) ÞÇá: ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå): ÌÚá ÞÑÉ Úíäí Ýí ÇáÕáÇÉ æáÐÊí Ýí ÇáÏäíÇ ÇáäÓÇÁ æÑíÍÇäÊí ÇáÍÓä æÇáÍÓíä.


Al-Husyan b. Muhammad from Mu`alla b. Muhammad from al-Hasan b. `Ali from Hammad b. `Uthman from `Umar b. Yazid from Abu `Abdillah.  He said:   The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and his family, said:  The coolness of my eye has been placed in the salat, and my pleasure in the dunya in women, and two (?) rayhanas (sweet basils?) are al-Hasan and al-Husayn.



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A group of our companions from Ahmad b. Abi `Abdillah al-Barqi from al-Hasan b. Abi Qutada from a man from Jamil b. Darraj.  He said:  Abu `Abdillah said:  Mankind does not get pleasure in the dunya and the akhira with a pleaure more than the pleasure of women, and it is the saying of Allah, `azza wa jalla: Made beautiful for mankind is the love of desires from women and sons – until the end of the ayat.  Then he said:  And the people of the Garden do not get pleasure from anything in the Garden more desirous to them than nikah (sex), not food and not drink.


props to mac's amazing site

Also, an interesting hadith I found on Fadhallah's website:
“Three kinds of people, Allah does not talk to them: the one who pulls off his grey hair, the one who masturbates and the homosexual person." LINK

It is interesting that it is compared to homosexuality (in terms of how God doesn't want to talk to a person because of it)

Do the Hanbalis have any justification for allowing masturbation, other than a way for lonely youths to release their sexual frustrations?  I'm pretty sure it's probably more vilified in their hadiths, considering that some of them believe you go to hell if your pants are below your ankles...

Anyone know what the Hanbalis base their ruling on this issue off of?