210 replies to this topic

[fyst]

Cary Grant, on Aug 2 2008, 10:48 AM, said:

my crowd doesnt shop for icecream

You might call it by a different name, but it still remains ice cream.

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we also dont consider wikipedia as an academic source.

You don't say!

Cary Grant, on Aug 2 2008, 11:04 AM, said:

the prevalence and spread of the human papilloma virus (HPV) is very much on the topic of cheating men,

Not really. It is completely off-topic. The topical question, if you haven't read it yet, is "WHY do men cheat?", not "What are the possible consequences of sleeping around irresponsibly?"

Edited by fyst, 02 August 2008 - 09:30 AM.

[alimohamad40]

alsalam alaikum
I recently sent a fatwa to khaminae’s office:


Alsalaam alaikum
1) The Holy Prophet [s] said:
"O' young people! If one of you is capable of marrying, then do it, because it is good for your eyes (not to stare at women) and protects your private parts (to remain more pious). Reference: Mustadrak Wasa'il-ush Shi'ah, vol.14, p.153
Now the question is as follows: For a man who is married to one wife but keeps committing the fornication of the eyes (looking at other women other than his wife) and he does not stop this action until he takes another wife or wives, does polygyny become wajib (obligatory) on him as a protection measure in this case?

2) The Common Known rule is that if the man is afraid from falling into sin or actually falls into sin without the marriage then marriage becomes wajib (compulsry) on him... Is this rule talking about the first marriage only or it includes the second to fourth marriage as well having in mind that he is still afraid from potential sin or is actually indulged in sin ?

3) If you answered No to both of the above questions then can you please tell us under which circumstances does the second and/or the third marriage becomes wajib (compulsry) ?
Answer:
Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu.
The answer is as follows:

                                                                 Bismihi Ta`ala
In general, if the only way to avoid committing a sinful act is to marry, it becomes obligatory and in this regard there is no difference between first and second marriage.
With prayers for your success,
wassalam.
Reference picture below

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[Darth Vader]

I'm not sure if some other man in this thread has brought up this piece of information yet or not.

I asked a friend of mine who had two wives, about why he felt the need for the second marriage?

His reply was this, and I agree: "It's not necessary that a husband and wife have similar views on everything in life. Most things can be lived with. But when a man with an unusually high appetite and frequent desire for sex, is going to adopt a method that gives him a continuous stream of grievous sins in his life, it'll only mean that he's either an idiot or not a Muslim to beginwith. This situation is flexible and some such males might be able to manage. But it gets worse for a few reasons. The woman is, by design, not able to comply during her mentrual period that lasts a considerable amount of days. Also, some women simply do not have a compatible degree of interest in sex. And this is the simple and foremost reason."

So if someone is in a circumstance like that and feels that it is necessary, as the fatwa shown by brother AliMohamad40 (thanks bro and welcome back?) in his post above indicates, I really don't see why not?

Islam DOES require a man who is engaging in polygamy to fulfill all rights of his wives equally and do justice to all.

[fyst]

alimohamad40, on Aug 13 2008, 12:17 AM, said:

alsalam alaikum
I recently sent a fatwa to khaminae’s office:


Alsalaam alaikum
1) The Holy Prophet [s] said:
"O' young people! If one of you is capable of marrying, then do it, because it is good for your eyes (not to stare at women) and protects your private parts (to remain more pious). Reference: Mustadrak Wasa'il-ush Shi'ah, vol.14, p.153
Now the question is as follows: For a man who is married to one wife but keeps committing the fornication of the eyes (looking at other women other than his wife) and he does not stop this action until he takes another wife or wives, does polygyny become wajib (obligatory) on him as a protection measure in this case?

2) The Common Known rule is that if the man is afraid from falling into sin or actually falls into sin without the marriage then marriage becomes wajib (compulsry) on him... Is this rule talking about the first marriage only or it includes the second to fourth marriage as well having in mind that he is still afraid from potential sin or is actually indulged in sin ?

3) If you answered No to both of the above questions then can you please tell us under which circumstances does the second and/or the third marriage becomes wajib (compulsry) ?
Answer:
Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu.
The answer is as follows:

                                                                 Bismihi Ta`ala
In general, if the only way to avoid committing a sinful act is to marry, it becomes obligatory and in this regard there is no difference between first and second marriage.
With prayers for your success,
wassalam.
Reference picture below

Oh, I hadn't even read this.


alimohamad40, either you don't understand English at all, or you are simply being deceitful. The e-mail that you sent has absolutely nothing to do with the issue that was being discussed. Let me break this down to you, so maybe you can compare the two different statements and see the difference. If you can't, then you should go join an Arabic forum where people can communicate normally with you, instead of treating you like a child who is just learning to speak.

The question that was being discussed was:

1 - If a married man is sinning, or fears falling into sin (by looking at other women, etc.), then does getting married again become obligatory on him?

The question that you asked is:

2 - If a married man fears falling into sin if he does not marry again, then does a second marriage become obligatory on him?


Question 2 is completely different from question 1, but maybe you cannot see that because of your lack of knowledge in English.

But I was expecting you to send the wrong question, so I also e-mailed the offices of Ayatullah Sistani and Khamenei, but with the right question, and, as expected, the answer I received was, NO, a second marriage does not become obligatory. (Only received a response from Ayatullah Sistani's office for now. Still waiting for the response from Ayatullah Khamenei's office.)


Question: If a man, while being married, still looks sinfully at other women, does it become obligatory on him to marry again? (i.e., get a second wife?)


Answer: It does not become obligatory.

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[Armans Wife]

^ Thank you for posting it!

[shiamuslima]

Salam Aleikum

Brother Fyst:

I don�t think it�s a problem with his English, my first language is English and it seems very clear to me.

He asked if a married man commits the sin of looking at other women and he believes that by marrying he will stop this sin (stop looking) does marriage become obligatory on him.

And the answer is clear that if the marriage stops him from sinning then it is obligatory.

The question you asked Sistani was incomplete you asked if the married man looks sinfully at women is marriage wajib on him, you left out the part saying that the marriage will stop him from looking sinfully (from sinning).

So of course Sistani will answer you and say its not wajib, because if the marriage isn�t going to stop him from looking then its not compulsory, it won�t fix the sin, its pointless.

Its only if he feels the marriage will stop him from sin that it is wajib. (And maybe its even wajib if he feels the marriage will significantly reduce the amount of sin he does if it does not completely stop it)

If you asked the same question to Sistani but added that the marriage will stop him from sinning (stop him from looking), then I believe you would get a different answer.

Salam aleikum

Edited by shiamuslima, 18 August 2008 - 04:36 PM.

[Armans Wife]

^ you got a point sister, but if a man look at other women sinfully.. I don't think second or third marriage is going to fix it.. the problem lies within himself!!

[fyst]

shiamuslima, on Aug 18 2008, 06:32 PM, said:

He asked if a married man commits the sin of looking at other women and he believes that by marrying he will stop this sin (stop looking) does marriage become obligatory on him.

I am aware of what he asked, but that is not what we were discussing. I don't think you know what was being discussed when it was suggested that we e-mail the marja's. It is obvious that if marriage prevents a person from sinning then it is obligatory on that person to marry. This was never the issue, and I made it clear in my earlier posts (which, it seems, you haven't read yet), but nevertheless this is what he asked.

[asphyxiated]

Armans Wife, on Jul 28 2008, 06:43 AM, said:

Salam,

Well, in islam men can't really cheat because there are halal ways of doing that. But still, it'll hurt the wife and any normal person would feel betrayed and cheated if the husband has another 'wives' eventough its halal. The question is, why do men do these things? I mean yes its halal, but don't they think before they do it, don't they care about the consequences, don't they care about the feelings of other people, of the wife? I really wonder if some men have brains or conscience.. or maybe their libido is really strong that it influence their judgement..

comments please, and no its not about my husband lol.. although he said one time when I asked him the same question.. that men do it for the excitement.. but I wonder what other men here really think about it.

You're basically equating halal with cheating. What gives you the authority, as a Muslim, to refer to halal relationships as "cheating"? If you are going to be "hurt" over your husband marrying a second woman, then don't give him permission to do so. You have the right to tell him not to marry another woman.

If your ideas ever clash with what is halal, then your ideas are incorrect and you should seek further understanding. Had this thread been about despicable men and women who cheat on their spouses by having an affair (or any other method that isn't halal), then we would have common ground for disapproving of such actions. But here you're essentially saying that it's wrong for men to fulfill halal relationships because it hurts the "feelings" of their wives. Maybe their wives are being jealous instead of following Islam. Maybe the wives are too preoccupied with this life that they don't see the benefits of a man taking a second wife (benefits to the woman, specifically).

A man seeking a second wife should seek permission from his first wife. If she gives him permission there is no "cheating" involved, unless, once again, you believe halal is equivalent to cheating.

[alimohamad40]

Alsalam alaikum

1) If some one is hungry because he doesn’t get all the essential daily foods what should he do to stop himself from looking at other peoples food and/or stealing it ????  

Eat more hallal food until he feels satisfied and stop stealing other people’s food or looking at it with the desire to steal it

2) If you married but look at other women or do sins with them then how would you stop that from happening???  
get another wife by hallal up to four wives until your satisfied and you stop looking and sinning and fornicating thruogh your eye.

Very simple and logical,,, Now If marrying another wife does not solve your problem then I dont know what kind of man you are ... And yes in that case it will not be wajib on you to marry another wife because its useless for you however I am talking about the normal human beings , I dont know what kind of a man you have to be so that marrying up to 4 wives of your choice is not going to stop you from committing the fornication of the eyes and the fornication of the other organs...

Fyst:
Your false statement was that:  the common fatwa that says “if the man is afraid from potential sin then marriage is wajib on him” is only talking about the first marriage and only refering to single men not the maried ones!  

Let me remind you when you said this, it was when baby beaver asked:

Quote

QUOTE (BabyBeaverIsAKit @ Aug 1 2008, 02:15 PM)  
Perhaps it should be clarified by the marja whether this is for a single man or for a man that is already married.
You said:
Those rules are for single men, not married men.They explicitly say that marriage becomes obligatory only if the man "fears falling into sin without it", meaning without being married at all. It doesn't mean without being married repeatedly. The only case where this ruling applies to married men is when the wife is unable or unwilling to satisfy her husband sexually.

Now I have shown you one fatwa so far that proved your falsehood and just now I have received another one I will paste both of them maybe if you read hard enough you will understand …


I Asked fadallah and khaminie's offices  the folowing question:

1) The Holy Prophet [s] said:
"O' young people! If one of you is capable of marrying, then do it, because it is good for your eyes (not to stare at women) and protects your private parts (to remain more pious). Reference: Mustadrak Wasa'il-ush Shi'ah, vol.14, p.153
Now the question is as follows: For a man who is married to one wife but keeps committing the fornication of the eyes (looking at other women other than his wife) and he does not stop this action until he takes another wife or wives, does polygyny become wajib (obligatory) on him as a protection measure in this case?

2) The Common Known rule is that if the man is afraid from falling into sin or actually falls into sin without the marriage then marriage becomes wajib (compulsry) on him... Is this rule talking about the first marriage only or it includes the second to fourth marriage as well having in mind that he is still afraid from potential sin or is actually indulged in sin ?

3) If you answered No to both of the above questions then can you please tell us under which circumstances does the second and/or the third marriage becomes wajib (compulsry) ?


Khaminnie:
Answer:
Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu.
The answer is as follows:

Bismihi Ta`ala
In general, if the only way to avoid committing a sinful act is to marry, it becomes obligatory and in this regard there is no difference between first and second marriage.
With prayers for your success,
wassalam.

Reference pic 1





Fadlallah:
Answer:
1,2,3)
The marriage becomes wajib when stopping the self from haraam depends on it even if it’s the fourth marriage  

Reference pic 2



Now in your dictionaries how does a married man stop himself from the fornication of the organs? By drinking coffee? or by dancing ?

The prophet says:  
Translation: Abi Jamilat narrated that either Imam Sadiq (P) or Imam Baqir (P) said: "No one is immune from fornication and anyone can somehow derive pleasure from it. The fornication for the eyes is to look, the fornication for the mouth is to kiss, and the fornication for the hands is to touch whether or not one actually engages in sexual intercourse."
Reference: Meshkat ul Anwar Page 275

No one is immune from fornication including the married man... and the fornication of the eye is to look.... so when your doing the fornication of the eye islam says that taking another wife (for fixing your problem)  is an obligation on you and your not entitled to act upon monogomy conditions in this case as eth fatwa stated.

This totally supports my initial statement where I Said:

Quote

QUOTE
Yes in the islamic Fiqh (juripridence) if the man looks at other women than his own wife/wives then it means he is falling into sin and the rule says that if your afraid of potential sin then second marriage becomes wajib ( compulsry) on you just like the prayer

In my religion god is merciful and the man can protect himself from sin by marriage, but its not up to you to determine for him how many wives will stop him from sin but up to him,,  As imam said "if umar did not prohibit tempoary amriage no one would commit zina except the very evil...",   majority of people are not very evil and second marriage up to fourth should solve most of thier problems except the very evil...  


The other hadeeth says:
Translation: The Holy Prophet [s] said: "O' young people! If one of you is capable of marrying, then do it, because it is good for your eyes (not to stare at women) and protects your private parts (to remain more pious).
Reference: Mustadrak Wasa'il-ush Shi'ah, vol.14, p.153


as you see the prophet prescribes mariage as a solution for the fornication of the eyes but I don’t know if you agree with that,,,,  oh maybe he is talking about single men only ha??? But the fatwa told you clearly that the rule is the same and applies to marrid men as well up to four wives right???

I started to doubt your English man i know mine is bad but whats wrong with you ??

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Edited by alimohamad40, 18 August 2008 - 05:59 PM.

[shiamuslima]

Brother Fyst:

I got confused reading your earlier posts.

It appeared as though you said that the rule ‘if a man fears falling into sin without marriage then the marriage becomes wajib on him’ is only for the unmarried men

Now it appears you are agreeing that if a married man fears falling into sin and the second/third/fourth marriage will stop him from falling into sin, then marriage becomes wajib on him.

Please clarify for me do you agree or disagree that if marriage will prevent sin it becomes compulsory on the man whether he is married or unmarried?



These are some of Alimohamad’s statements:

“Yes in the islamic Fiqh (juripridence) if the man looks at other women than his own wife/wives then it means he is falling into sin and the rule says that if your afraid of potential sin then second marriage becomes wajib ( compulsry) on you just like the prayer

god says that if your afraid that you will fal into sin then you MUSTgo and get married until you stop fantisizing and/or sinning.

the idea is that if he looks at other women and fantesize it means he wants another wife and when he gets that he will stop looking.”


From the last point I think he is logically deriving that a man looking at a woman with lust (desire) means he wants another woman (otherwise why look if you don’t want), so he has to use all means available to try to stop the sin, which include trying to look away and trying to get married (up to the fourth wife) until the sin stops.
It would be wajib on him to use whatever method possible to try stop himself sinning. And logically a man with four wives would feel more materialistically satisfied, less bored, less likely to fantasise about women other than his wives, than the man who had one wife.

I think he is presenting a logical argument that marriage would at least make it easier for the man to stop sinning, so he should use the easiest method and be more guaranteed of stopping the sin than use the hardest method and have more risk of failing to prevent the sin.

I think he is assuming logically that in majority of cases marrying again would reduce the mans likelihood of committing sin and therefore be compulsory. Because if he is looking this means logically he wants, and he should try to get what he wants to cure this want until he reaches the prescribed limit (4).

If the man is certain that marrying again will not stop him from sinning then I think its not wajib on him to marry, which I believe Alimohamad has just clarified that he agrees on.

[shiamuslima]

The Imam Ja'far considered Mut'a a divine mercy by means of which people were saved from the sin of fornication and delivered from God's retribution.
Concerning the Quranic verse: "Whatsoever mercy God opens to men, none can withhold (35:2)," the Imam said: "Mut'a is part of that mercy.
" (Wasa'il al-Shia, v14, p439).

[fyst]

alimohamad40, on Aug 18 2008, 07:50 PM, said:

1) If some one is hungry because he doesn’t get all the essential daily foods what should he do to stop himself from looking at other peoples food and/or stealing it ????  

Eat more hallal food until he feels satisfied and stop stealing other people’s food or looking at it with the desire to steal it

2) If you married but look at other women or do sins with them then how would you stop that from happening???  
get another wife by hallal up to four wives until your satisfied and you stop looking and sinning and fornicating thruogh your eye.

Oh, proof by analogy. How brilliant! Are you Sunni by any chance? Because you are acting like one.

Quote

Now If marrying another wife does not solve your problem then I dont know what kind of man you are ... And yes in that case it will not be wajib on you to marry another wife because its useless for you however I am talking about the normal human beings , I dont know what kind of a man you have to be so that marrying up to 4 wives of your choice is not going to stop you from committing the fornication of the eyes and the fornication of the other organs...

You are just being stupid, as usual. A man can satisfy his sexual needs with a single wife. If a person sins by looking at other women when he is already married and his wife is willing to satisfy his needs, then what difference does getting married again make?

Let me give you the answer: None at all.

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Fyst:
Your false statement was that:  the common fatwa that says “if the man is afraid from potential sin then marriage is wajib on him” is only talking about the first marriage and only refering to single men not the maried ones!  

Let me remind you when you said this, it was when baby beaver asked:



Now I have shown you one fatwa so far that proved your falsehood and just now I have received another one I will paste both of them maybe if you read hard enough you will understand …

No, in your ignorance of basic English, you asked the wrong question. I asked the right one, and I got the right answer. Did you read the questions 1) and 2) that I posted in my previous post? Do you understand the difference between them? Answer this, please, do you understand the difference between them?

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I Asked fadallah and khaminie's offices  the folowing question:

I know what you asked. You just asked the wrong question, as expected. Ask the question I did, and you will get the answer that I did.

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Now in your dictionaries how does a married man stop himself from the fornication of the organs? By drinking coffee? or by dancing ?

By resorting to his wife. That's the reason why the person got married in the first place.

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No one is immune from fornication including the married man... and the fornication of the eye is to look....

That is true.

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so when your doing the fornication of the eye islam says that taking another wife (for fixing your problem)  is an obligation on you

Complete lies! You can resort to your first wife as well. If you don't have a wife, then obviously getting married is obligatory. Or if your first wife cannot satisfy your needs, then getting married again becomes obligatory. But if you are already married to a normal wife, then you can fix the problem with her. You are lying when you say that getting married again becomes obligatory in this case.

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but its not up to you to determine for him how many wives will stop him from sin but up to him,,

And it's not up to you to determine how many wives are obligatory for him, it's up to him.

Quote

as you see the prophet prescribes mariage as a solution for the fornication of the eyes but I don’t know if you agree with that,,,,  oh maybe he is talking about single men only ha???

Uh, yes, he IS talking about single men. He says: "O' young people!" which is in reference to unmarried men.

Quote

But the fatwa told you clearly that the rule is the same and applies to marrid men as well up to four wives right???

The fatwa was for a different question, but unfortunately for you, it was in English so you couldn't understand it. Anyway, let me know if you can tell the difference between the questions 1) and 2) from my previous post.

[fyst]

shiamuslima, on Aug 18 2008, 08:05 PM, said:

I got confused reading your earlier posts.

It appeared as though you said that the rule ‘if a man fears falling into sin without marriage then the marriage becomes wajib on him’ is only for the unmarried men

Now it appears you are agreeing that if a married man fears falling into sin and the second/third/fourth marriage will stop him from falling into sin, then marriage becomes wajib on him.

Please clarify for me do you agree or disagree that if marriage will prevent sin it becomes compulsory on the man whether he is married or unmarried?

I have repeatedly stated that if marriage prevents a person from falling into sin, then it becomes obligatory, irrespective of whether the man is married or not.

The issue here is, if a married man sins (by looking, etc.), then does marrying again become obligatory on him?

These are two different issues. alimohamad40 hasn't been able to see the difference between the two. I'm hoping you can.

Quote

I think he is presenting a logical argument that marriage would at least make it easier for the man to stop sinning, so he should use the easiest method and be more guaranteed of stopping the sin than use the hardest method and have more risk of failing to prevent the sin.

I think he is assuming logically that in majority of cases marrying again would reduce the mans likelihood of committing sin and therefore be compulsory.

Yes, I am aware that this is what he wants to argue, but he cannot express himself clearly, so he simply resorts to posting in larger font to repeat the same points over and over. In any case, his logic is flawed. Sure, getting married to more than one woman (say 4 women with several mutahs thrown in) would arguably make it easier for the man to refrain from sinning, but it is also possible to refrain from sinning by being married to one wife. It can be argued that this is a slightly harder option, but that is irrelevant. The point is that a person can, under normal circumstances, refrain from sins by resorting to his only wife as well. Just because it will make it easier to refrain from sins by marrying again, doesn't make this an obligation.

Quote

Because if he is looking this means logically he wants, and he should try to get what he wants to cure this want until he reaches the prescribed limit (4).

Which is an inane argument, since the woman whom he "wants" (i.e., the one he lustfully looked at) is NOT the one he will likely be getting married to. So he cannot "get what he wants" in this case, and he just has to satisfy himself with what he has in order to refrain from sinning. And in this case, what difference does it make if he has one wife or four? He can only satisfy himself with one wife at a time.

[shiamuslima]

fyst, on Aug 18 2008, 06:40 PM, said:

would arguably make it easier for the man to refrain from sinning, but it is also possible to refrain from sinning by being married to one wife. It can be argued that this is a slightly harder option, but that is irrelevant. The point is that a person can, under normal circumstances, refrain from sins by resorting to his only wife as well. Just because it will make it easier to refrain from sins by marrying again, doesn't make this an obligation.

Let me take the assumption that what your saying is true that under normal circumstances (and not just for men with the strongest faith, discipline and will power of the Prophets), a man can refrain from sin by resorting to his only wife (and the question remain for a normal man how much of a struggle and how long would he have to practice for before he gains this type of control).

How should this man approach the problem of stopping himself from sinning? Logically you have three halal options (halal meaning they are all good things not harmful) to choose from to stop yourself sinning, one is the quicker and easier than the others to stop you from sinning, the others are much harder and you will continue to sin for a longer time until you achieve success with these methods, logically which one should you choose to do first or first in combination with the other methods, the halal thing that will bring you to a sin free state quicker, easier and more succesfully or should this method be used as a last resort while you continue to sin as you watch the other methods failing?

What is wajib on him is for him to try his hardest to solve the problem, to stop sinning, so on judgement day he can stand and say I did everything in my power to try to stop.

If he solves the problem by not looking, then this method is wajib on him
If he solves the problem by asking his wife to make herself more attractive, then this method is wajib on him
If marriage solves the problem, then this method is wajib on him

But logically doing everything in my power to stop sinning means taking all these steps at once, to give myself the best possible chance of resolving the problem, in the quickest timeframe (to minimize the time I am left being exposed to the risk of sin)

Now logically it makes sense to try the best method of the halal methods as soon as you encounter the problem rather than leaving it as a last resort once everything else fails, because your aim is success. If you are not trying to be successful in defeating the sin then logically you don�t care is you fall into sin, if you disobey Allah. So if your falling into sin while in the process of trying the weaker methods, you are accountable for those sins because you didn�t use your wisdom in trying at the first instant the method most likely to defeat the problem.

The key is it's wajib for him to solve the problem
If he is capable of marriage and this offers him the best protection then why not go for this option first in combination with all the other methods,

There is nothing wrong with multiple marriage, it is halal, recommended. So what excuse does he have on judgment day if he was falling into sin and he didn�t at least try to marry and see if this would help him? And this is the same for all the other methods if he didn�t try his hardest to lower his gaze, and didn�t ask his wife/wives to make herself as attractive as possible, then he can�t say he was forced into sin, God will ask him why didn�t you use all the halal methods I provided you with to try to solve your problem.

Edited by shiamuslima, 18 August 2008 - 07:50 PM.

[fyst]

shiamuslima, on Aug 18 2008, 09:47 PM, said:

But logically doing everything in my power to stop sinning means taking all these steps at once, to give myself the best possible chance of resolving the problem, in the quickest timeframe (to minimize the time I am left being exposed to the risk of sin)

Nonsense. There is no reason to assume that taking all three steps is going to solve his problem any faster or more easily than simply lowering his gaze and being intimate with the existing wife more frequently.

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If he is capable of marriage and this offers him the best protection then why not go for this option first in combination with all the other methods,

"why not" is not the same as "he must". The latter is being discussed here, not the former.

Quote

So what excuse does he have on judgment day if he was falling into sin and he didn't at least try to marry and see if this would help him?

The excuse is: "I lowered my gaze and resorted to my first wife. And it worked."

[shiamuslima]

fyst, on Aug 18 2008, 09:11 PM, said:

The excuse is: "I lowered my gaze and resorted to my first wife. And it worked."

How do you know that lowering his gaze and resorting to his first wife will stop his sin, can you guarantee this?

You have no proof that him trying to not look will definitely solve his sin

And I have no proof that him simultaneously trying not to look, asking his wife to make herself more attractive and trying to marry again, will definitely solve his sin

fyst, on Aug 18 2008, 09:11 PM, said:

Nonsense. There is no reason to assume that taking all three steps is going to solve his problem any faster or more easily than simply lowering his gaze and being intimate with the existing wife more frequently.

I can’t say that doing all three at the same time is going to produce a better result than using just one method.

and you can’t say that using just one method will produce the same result as using all three methods at the same time.

But I can say that doing all three at the same time will definitely produce at least the same if not a better result than using just one method.

So if you are a fallible person who does not have complete knowledge of how successful each method will be and which will result in him stopping his pattern of sinning sooner (and therefore result in less number of sins committed) how should you safe guard yourself, if you are logical?

You should use all available halal methods at your disposal. What is your reason to say no to marriage if you are capable of it and it might help you stop sinning, marriage is not something bad to be avoided?

Use all three methods otherwise you are being negligent and putting yourself at risk. Because you can’t guarantee that with one method alone you will stop and especially you can’t guarantee that using this method will result in you stopping as quickly as any other method would. And your negligence, your failure to use your intellect and use all the halal methods available for you to cure yourself will be questioned because it shows you didn’t take curing the sin as your first priority and try every method available for success, you feared something else above your fear of distance from Allah.

For example if I’m afraid of my wife being angry with me above my fear of disobeying Allah, I say ok I will use the other halal methods apart from marriage and see what happens, if it took me 5 more years to gain control of my sinful behaviour than it would have if I had married and used the other methods, or if I never gained control of my sinful behaviour at all, then I will be held accountable for my negligence, because I put the acceptance of a creature above the acceptance of Allah, and put myself at higher risk of sin than I needed to be.

[fyst]

shiamuslima, on Aug 18 2008, 11:05 PM, said:

How do you know that lowering his gaze and resorting to his first wife will stop his sin, can you guarantee this?

Nope.

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And I have no proof that him simultaneously trying not to look, asking his wife to make herself more attractive and trying to marry again, will definitely solve his sin

Right.

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So if you are a fallible person who does not have complete knowledge of how successful each method will be and which will result in him stopping his pattern of sinning sooner (and therefore result in less number of sins committed) how should you safe guard yourself, if you are logical?

Trying the approaches in order of ease of performance, and if the approach doesn't appear to be working, you can try others as well.

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You should use all available halal methods at your disposal.

Nonsense. That is your personal opinion, which, sadly, has nothing to do with Islam.

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What is your reason to say no to marriage if you are capable of it and it might help you stop sinning

What is my reason for saying 'yes' to marriage if I don't have a clue if it is going to help at all?

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Use all three methods otherwise you are being negligent and putting yourself at risk.

More nonsense. I don't care about your personal opinions, if you haven't noticed by now. If you have an Islamic view point, present it. Otherwise you are wasting your time.

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For example if I’m afraid of my wife being angry with me above my fear of disobeying Allah, I say ok I will use the other halal methods apart from marriage and see what happens, if it took me 5 more years to gain control of my sinful behaviour than it would have if I had married and used the other methods, or if I never gained control of my sinful behaviour at all, then I will be held accountable for my negligence, because I put the acceptance of a creature above the acceptance of Allah, and put myself at higher risk of sin than I needed to be.

You just keep absurdly assuming that getting married would make a difference above and beyond the effect of lowering the gaze or any other method. If this hollow assumption is all you have to express, then you've expressed it several times already so you don't have to keep repeating it. And, as I have mentioned, your opinion in this issue is completely irrelevant.

[alimohamad40]

alimohamad40, on Aug 1 2008, 11:20 AM, said:

I always thought that it was common knowledge that if a married man was afraid from a potential sin which is related to marrying a second wife then polygyny becomes wajib (Compulsry) on him .  

its very logical...  looking at women and dwelling in it and the fornication of the eyes and the organs is Haraam but Second marriage is hallal and Mustahab (recomended) so which one would you choose? when you are put between those two choices which one would you choose ??? the haraam or the hallal and mustahab???  

I will put some fatwas here:

I asked this question:

(Question): Is marriage in general permissible or Recommended in itself?  When does it become mustahab and when does it become wajib (compulsory)?  In the book “Al-Urwa Alwothqa” it says that marriage is Mustahab (recommended) in itself, is this talking about the first marriage and the permanent only or it includes polygyny and the temporary marriage as they made a general statement and didn’t specify?  

(Answers):

Sistani:
The marriage whether permanent or temporary is Mustahab in itself and it becomes Wajib (obligatory) if the human falls into sin without it.

Reference  attachment pic 1


Makarim shirazi:
marriage is from the mustahabat (recommended acts) in itself but if some one was afraid from falling into sin without it then it becomes wajib (obligatory)
Reference  attachment pic 2


Jawad Tabrizi:
marriage in itself is a recommended act but when one is afraid from potentially falling into sin then it becomes wajib (obligatory) and god is the most knowledgeable.
Reference  attachment pic 3


Another question was asked by the member Fyst from khaminie's office :

Question 1) is it permissible for a woman to add a condition in her marriage contract that states that her husband can not marry another woman (nikah or muta) while he is married to her?

Question 2) If a married man has this condition in his contract, but he fears falling into sin because of it , does this condition become invalid ? that is , can he disregard the condition ?


Answer 1&2) To make a condition in the mentioned way is void. But if they stipulate that the wife be her husband's attorney  in divorcing herself if he married another woman, it will be a correct condition. Anyhow , the man is not entitled to act upon such a condition.
Reference  attachment pic 4

fyst, on Aug 2 2008, 12:40 AM, said:

Yes in the islamic Fiqh (juripridence) if the man looks at other women than his own wife/wives then it means he is falling into sin and the rule says that if your afraid of potential sin then second marriage becomes wajib ( compulsry) on you just like the prayer

No, it doesn't. You're making that up. According to hadith when the companions of the Prophet (who were married) looked at an attractive woman who was passing by, the Prophet [s] told them to return home to their wives, since their wives had everything that she (the attractive woman) had. He did not advise the men to marry again. I don't have the reference for this hadith right now, but if its a fairly well known one, so if I come across it I'll post it here.

Perhaps it should be clarified by the marja whether this is for a single man or for a man that is already married.

Those rules are for single men, not married men. They explicitly say that marriage becomes obligatory only if the man "fears falling into sin without it", meaning without being married at all. It doesn't mean without being married repeatedly. The only case where this ruling applies to married men is when the wife is unable or unwilling to satisfy her husband sexually.

fyst, on Aug 2 2008, 06:32 AM, said:

cannot understand basic English. Let me explain this to you as simply as I can:

1 - The rule is specifically for unmarried men. Here is the ruling number from the risalah of Ayatullah Sistani:

2452. If a person gets entangled in haraam acts owing to his not having a wife, it is obligatory for him to marry.

The point here is that your claim that, if a married man fears falling into sin, then it becomes obligatory on him to marry another woman, is complete nonsense. The man can resort to his existing wife to satisfy his needs.

IF that wife isn't able to do so, then it does become obligatory on him to marry another woman. But if that existing wife CAN satisfy his needs, then it is NOT obligatory on him to marry again. He still can marry another woman if he wants to, but that is completely his choice, and not an obligation.

alimohamad40, on Aug 18 2008, 06:50 PM, said:

I Asked fadallah and khaminie's offices  the folowing question:

1) The Holy Prophet [s] said:
"O' young people! If one of you is capable of marrying, then do it, because it is good for your eyes (not to stare at women) and protects your private parts (to remain more pious). Reference: Mustadrak Wasa'il-ush Shi'ah, vol.14, p.153
Now the question is as follows: For a man who is married to one wife but keeps committing the fornication of the eyes (looking at other women other than his wife) and he does not stop this action until he takes another wife or wives, does polygyny become wajib (obligatory) on him as a protection measure in this case?

2) The Common Known rule is that if the man is afraid from falling into sin or actually falls into sin without the marriage then marriage becomes wajib (compulsry) on him... Is this rule talking about the first marriage only or it includes the second to fourth marriage as well having in mind that he is still afraid from potential sin or is actually indulged in sin ?

3) If you answered No to both of the above questions then can you please tell us under which circumstances does the second and/or the third marriage becomes wajib (compulsry) ?


Khaminnie:
Answer:
Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu.
The answer is as follows:

Bismihi Ta`ala
In general, if the only way to avoid committing a sinful act is to marry, it becomes obligatory and in this regard there is no difference between first and second marriage.
With prayers for your success,
wassalam.

Reference pic 1




Fadlallah:
Answer:
1,2,3)
The marriage becomes wajib when stopping the self from haraam depends on it even if it’s the fourth marriage  

Reference pic 2


Now in your dictionaries how does a married man stop himself from the fornication of the organs? By drinking coffee? or by dancing ?

The prophet says:  
Translation: Abi Jamilat narrated that either Imam Sadiq (P) or Imam Baqir (P) said: "No one is immune from fornication and anyone can somehow derive pleasure from it. The fornication for the eyes is to look, the fornication for the mouth is to kiss, and the fornication for the hands is to touch whether or not one actually engages in sexual intercourse."
Reference: Meshkat ul Anwar Page 275

No one is immune from fornication including the married man... and the fornication of the eye is to look.... so when your doing the fornication of the eye islam says that taking another wife (for fixing your problem)  is an obligation on you and your not entitled to act upon monogomy conditions in this case as the fatwa stated.

This totally supports my initial statement where I Said:

Yes in the islamic Fiqh (juripridence) if the man looks at other women than his own wife/wives then it means he is falling into sin and the rule says that if your afraid of potential sin then second marriage becomes wajib ( compulsry) on you just like the prayer


In my religion god is merciful and the man can protect himself from sin by marriage, but its not up to you to determine for him how many wives will stop him from sin but up to him,,  As imam said "if umar did not prohibit tempoary marriage no one would commit zina except the very evil...",   majority of people are not very evil and second marriage up to fourth should solve most of thier problems except the very evil...  


The other hadeeth says:
Translation: The Holy Prophet [s] said: "O' young people! If one of you is capable of marrying, then do it, because it is good for your eyes (not to stare at women) and protects your private parts (to remain more pious).
Reference: Mustadrak Wasa'il-ush Shi'ah, vol.14, p.153


as you see the prophet prescribes mariage as a solution for the fornication of the eyes but I don’t know if you agree with that,,,,  oh maybe he is talking about single men only because he said young people ha???ha??? But the fatwa told you clearly that the rule is the same and applies to marrid men as well up to four wives right???

I started to doubt your English man i know mine is bad but whats wrong with you ??

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Edited by alimohamad40, 18 August 2008 - 09:39 PM.

[Muhammed Ali]

Bro alimohammad marring a 2nd wife wont really make a difference to the man unless his first wife doesnt fulfill his desires due to her having problems eg if she is disabled, very unattractive etc.. under normal circumstances a 2nd wife wont stop the man looking at more women.

Anyway its my turn to use the big red font    this is from nahjul balagah:

420. It is related that Amir al-mu'minin, peace be upon him, was sitting with his companions when a beautiful woman passed by them and they began to look at her whereupn Amir al-mu'minin, peace be upon him, said: The eyes of these men are covetous and this glancing is the cause of their becoming covetous. Whenever anyone of you sees a woman who attracts him, he should meet his wife because she is a woman like his wife.

I reckon case closed

[fyst]

Muhammed Ali, on Aug 19 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

Anyway its my turn to use the big red font    this is from nahjul balagah:

420. It is related that Amir al-mu'minin, peace be upon him, was sitting with his companions when a beautiful woman passed by them and they began to look at her whereupn Amir al-mu'minin, peace be upon him, said: The eyes of these men are covetous and this glancing is the cause of their becoming covetous. Whenever anyone of you sees a woman who attracts him, he should meet his wife because she is a woman like his wife.

I reckon case closed

Ah, thanks! This is the hadith I was looking for but couldn't find. Here's the Arabic for alimohamad40:

æÑæí Ãäå(Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ßÇä ÌÇáÓÇð Ýí ÃÕÍÇÈå¡ ÝãÑøÊ Èåã ÇãÑÃÉ ÌãíáÉ¡ ÝÑãÞåÇ ÇáÞæã ÈÃÈÕÇÑåã.
ÝÞÇá(Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): Åöäøó ÃóÈúÕóÇÑ åÐöåö ÇáúÝõÍõæáö ØóæóÇãöÍõ¡ æóÅöäøó Ðáößó ÓóÈóÈõ åóÈóÇÈöåóÇ¡ ÝÅöÐóÇ äóÙóÑó ÃóÍóÏõßõãú Åöáóì ÇãúÑóÃóÉ ÊõÚúÌöÈõåõ ÝóáúíõáÇóãöÓú Ãóåúáóåõ¡ ÝóÅöäøóãóÇ åöíó ÇãúÑóÃóåñ ßóÇãúÑóÃóÉ.

http://www.balaghah..../hekam.php?id=7

Imam Ali [a] didn't ask these men to marry again, he asked them to return to their wives. It's completely stupid to suggest that if a married man looks sinfully at another woman, it becomes obligatory on him to marry again. alimohamad40 is just making up his own fatwas as usual, and shiamuslima seems to think that Islam is what her logic finds appealing.

[alimohamad40]

^^^
Your logic is not good man,

Can you inform us in which case does polygyny become obligatory???
Isn’t it when he is falling into sin due to desiring another? Isn’t it in this case where he has to choose between doing a haraam action or a mustahab hallal action  so automatically the hallal becomes compulsory as an alternative for haraam ???  

Are you saying imam Ali has double standards that he marries 25 wives but he advices others to stick to only one ??? where are you getting to?  

Off course he will tell them to go back to their wives in this situation  what did you expect him to tell them???
Did he tell them second marriage is not mustahab???  NO
He just told them that doing the fornication of the eyes is haraam and be content with what is hallal for you … and he used the word "Ahl" which is plural and could be one wife or multiple wives any way.

That walking woman could be a married woman and she is a walking person and they are more than one person looking at her,,,  what do you expect him to tell them??  go all of you chase her and marry her ??  of course he will do Nahi an almunkar, “ forbiding evil”

I am talking about another issue you have totally misunderstood me and you complain about my statements...  i am talking where the man is in constant sin and is commiting the fornication of the organs, in that case the natural and logical solution for him is polygyny so it becomes obligatory on him...  

For a normal man thats the solution....  for the abnormal exceptions that your hypothetically assuming i have not proposed a solution in this thread,,,,  

The normal hungry human needs to be fed....   so the islamic general rule is that if you are going to harm your body from hunger then eating becomes obligatory on you because eating is mubah and harming your body is haraam so the mubah automatically becomes wajib as an alternative for haram ( under the rule of Ilzam)

There are exceptions and people who have a desease and food will not solve thier problem but they are not the norm btu the normal thing is to eat...


like wise when a man is commiting or is afraid of " Haraam" by indulging in the fornication of the organs then the natural and the normal and the recomended way is to take another wife and another up to four so for these natural people the polygyny becomes obligatory when it can be an alternative for haraam....    

yes there are exceptions for this too and there are people who will never be satisfied even with a million wives but once again the law is for the general people not the sick people who are exception to the norm...  



imam ali says " if umar did not forbid mut3a no one would commit zina except the very evil"  

the law is not for those very evils who would do the wrong thing even if the hallal alternative is open for them


the law is to open the doors of the hallal for the normal public.


as imam Ali said " each time one door of hallal is closed 1000 doors of haraam are oepned"  



just use your brain man

Edited by alimohamad40, 19 August 2008 - 01:21 AM.

[fyst]

alimohamad40, on Aug 19 2008, 02:50 AM, said:

Can you inform us in which case does polygyny become obligatory???

I've mentioned this several times already, but not only do you not understand English, you don't even read what I write. I've said:

Quote

The man can resort to his existing wife to satisfy his needs.

IF that wife isn't able to do so, then it does become obligatory on him to marry another woman. But if that existing wife CAN satisfy his needs, then it is NOT obligatory on him to marry again. He still can marry another woman if he wants to, but that is completely his choice, and not an obligation.

and

Quote

I have repeatedly stated that if marriage prevents a person from falling into sin, then it becomes obligatory, irrespective of whether the man is married or not.

So stop being stupid, and read carefully next time. Or ask shiamuslima to explain what I've written to you sentence by sentence, several times if necessary. Because you're completely incapable of understanding basic English.

Quote

Isn’t it when he is falling into sin due to desiring another?

Wrong. That's what you foolishly wish to believe, but that is not when Islam makes it obligatory.

Quote

Isn’t it in this case where he has to choose between doing a haraam action or a mustahab hallal action  so automatically the hallal becomes compulsory as an alternative for haraam ???

  
But getting married again isn't the ONLY Halal option for this man. Imam Ali tells those men to return to their existing wives, not marry another.

Quote

Are you saying imam Ali has double standards that he marries 25 wives but he advices others to stick to only one ???

No. You think I'm saying that because you have the thinking ability of a goat. And a sub-average intelligent one at that.

Where did I suggest that Imam Ali is telling them to stick to only one? If you cannot understand my posts because I've written them in English, then ask shiamuslima to show me where I suggested so.

I'm saying that Imam Ali did NOT tell those people that they must marry again. If, like you foolishly claim, it becomes obligatory on married men to marry again if they look sinfully at other women, then Imam Ali would have told those men to marry again as soon as possible (not to that same woman who was passing by, obviously, but to any other female). But he does NOT say so. He simply tells them to return to their own wives.

Quote

Off course he will tell them to go back to their wives in this situation  what did you expect him to tell them???

Well, if I was as foolish as your fine self, I would have expected him to tell them to get married again as soon as possible. Sadly for you, he doesn't.

Quote

Did he tell them second marriage is not mustahab???  NO

Did he tell them that second marriage IS musthab? NO

Quote

He just told them that doing the fornication of the eyes is haraam and be content with what is hallal for you … and he used the word "Ahl" which is plural and could be one wife or multiple wives any way.

Yes, they could have had multiple wives, but did Imam Ali tell them to marry again? NO. So if a married man looks sinfully at other women, does it become obligatory on him to marry again? NO. Get this through your thick skull. Or ask shiamuslima to explain it to you slowly.

Quote

That walking woman could be a married woman and she is a walking person and they are more than one person looking at her,,,  what do you expect him to tell them??  go all of you chase her and marry her ??  of course he will do Nahi an almunkar, “ forbiding evil”

The point, which you are unable to comprehend, is that he does NOT pass your stupid suggestion that, just because they looked sinfully at another woman, they should get married again.

Quote

I am talking about another issue you have totally misunderstood me and you complain about my statements...

No, I completely understand what you are saying. You are just making up your own fatwas and passing them off as Islamic laws out of sheer ignorance and stubbornness.

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i am talking where the man is in constant sin and is commiting the fornication of the organs, in that case the natural and logical solution for him is polygyny so it becomes obligatory on him...

But that is not the ONLY "natural and logical solution". He can also lower his gaze and be intimate with his wife more frequently. And this is the option that Imam Ali recommended, not polygyny. So, no, polygyny does NOT become obligatory on him.

Edited by fyst, 19 August 2008 - 05:30 AM.

[Zeynab-europe]

There is this famous story about the scorpion and the frog.

One day a scorpion wanted to cross a creek. He spotted a frog getting ready to go the same direction, and asked the frog to give him a ride. "won't you sting me?" the frog asked. "of course not, if you die, I will drown too". So they set out together. Halfway the creek, the scorpion stung the frog, who became paralysed and started to drown. "what have you done"  asked the frog. "we're both going to die"!" "I know, answered the scorpion. But I couldn't help but to sting, it's my nature!"

So the reason why men cheat is that in the wild, monogamy is unfavourable. Why setting all your luck on one female delivering one baby at the time, when you can have a practically unlimited number of females breeding your offspring and spreading YOUR genetic material? Men just tend to forget that they have more brains than a scorpion.

[Sayeda_110]

Simple Answer....

Q: Why do Babies cry??    A: Its in their nature to do so...

The same answer applies to men in this case....