210 replies to this topic

[seekers14]

Woman is test of Man and Money is test of Woman.

Looking at Na mahram woman intentionaly for pleasure is also part of cheating.

[Armans Wife]

seekers14, on Jul 30 2008, 03:19 PM, said:

Woman is test of Man and Money is test of Woman.

Looking at Na mahram woman intentionaly for pleasure is also part of cheating.

yeah and its definetly a sin

[Jabir ibn Hayyan]

Dr_Asad_77, on Jul 28 2008, 08:56 PM, said:

I came across this article once and I feel like sharing it now
WHO PRACTICES POLYGAMY?
"Marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one or one that your right hands possess.  That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."  (Qur'an 4:3)
This verse from the Qur'an allows a man to marry more than one woman but only if he can deal justly with them.  Another verse says that a person is unable to deal justly between wives, thus giving permission but discouraging.
"You will never be able to deal justly between wives however much you desire (to do so).  But (if you have more than one wife) do not turn altogether away (from one), leaving her in suspense..."  (Qur'an 4:129)
While the provision for polygamy makes the social system flexible enough to deal with all kinds of conditions, it is not necessarily recommended or preferred by Islam.  Taking the example of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is instructive.  He was married to one woman, Khadijah, for twenty-five years.  It was only after her death when he had reached the age of fifty that he entered into other marriages to promote friendships, create alliances or to be an example of some lesson to the community; also to show the Muslims how to treat their spouses under different conditions of life.
The Prophet (peace be upon him) was given inspiration from Allah about how to deal with multiple marriages and the difficulties encountered therein.  It is not an easy matter for a man to handle two wives, two families, and two households and still be just between the two.  No man of reasonable intelligence would enter into this situation without a great deal of thought and very compelling reasons (other than sexual).
--Mary Ali

Hopeful, on Jul 29 2008, 02:09 AM, said:

Can anyone provide me with a reference. I am addressing Bro. Dr.Asad, as the point has been raised by him.
Kindly provide me a reference, where it says that it is haraam to forbid something which is halal. I have always been told that if my parents do not want me to do mustahab or halal, it would be haraam for me to do that mustahab or halal, which is against their wish. AFAIK, it is only haraam to forbid something which is wajib.
Similarly, I have read a fatwa from Ayatullah Sistani, which says, that if a woman compromises on her dower, she can restrict her husband from multiple marriages(which is a halal or mustahab act-varies according to Marja).

Salam un Alaikum,
                           Thanks for carefully reading my post. Insha Allah try reading it again above(in bold fonts) and let me know, if further clarification is needed...... As per my feeling, some thins that is halal is not necessarily wajib. Also, things that are Halal could become Haram and vice versa according to the situations!
I hope this clarifies.

[alimohamad40]

alslam alaikum

seekers14, on Jul 30 2008, 08:19 AM, said:

Woman is test of Man and Money is test of Woman.

Looking at Na mahram woman intentionaly for pleasure is also part of cheating.

Armans Wife, on Jul 30 2008, 08:28 AM, said:

yeah and its definetly a sin

Yes in the islamic Fiqh  (juripridence) if the man looks at other women than his own wife/wives then it means he is falling into sin and the rule says that if your afraid of potential sin then second marriage becomes wajib ( compulsry)  on you just like the prayer

all scholars agree with this openion.

yes offcourse I blame the mognogomy advocates for the global prostuitution... marry them they will not become prostitutes .... as you saw most of them did it for money and islam makes nafaqah compulsry so once you proovide them with money they wont need to do that...  
Imam ali says " hunger is kafir"
if you create a system which will breed hunger then all you will get is kufr and evil
and remember that this is not the only problem...  every extra mariage is equivilant to one less fornication,,,,  

Imam Ali says " each time one door of hallal is closed 1000 doors of haraam are opened"
so ofcourse I blame those who close the doors of hallal by thier evil cultures who else should I blame the Elephants ?
of course i will blame the anti polygyny and the anti early marriage advocates..

from my experince many men are required by religion to take more wives..
I dont know any married man who is not still falling into sins and/or not afraid of sin and fantisizing other women,,,  if there is one please infrom me but make sure he doesnt have a health problem because then that would not be representetive.

Edited by alimohamad40, 30 July 2008 - 06:58 PM.

[shiamuslima]

Candela, on Jul 30 2008, 06:08 AM, said:

If you are saying you think polygamy is a way to eliminate prostitution please be more specific and provide us with the compelete pictures so that we may all benefit Inshallah, how does the society do that exactly when it hasn't worked at any time? See my open post and explain please.

salam aleikum

No one is saying that the cause of prostitution is monogamy.

The direct cause is a need/desire for money, sex, etc. But a culture that is anti-polygyny and encourages and enforces monogamy becomes an indirect cause of this problem of prostitution in that it stops the application of multiple marriage which is one of the preventions of prostitution.  

Ali Mohamad presented polygyny as one of the preventative measures and solutions, that would greatly lessen the number of prostitutes, not completely eliminate it.

To address the problem of prostitution you need to look at the causes, preventions and solutions to both of the sides, the demand side (the men) and the supply side (the women).

On the supply side (the women?s side), the causes of prostitution are two: either a need or a desire for something that this profession provides. This job principally provides two things to the woman money and sex/male attention

The woman either has:
- a need for money and not a desire to work in this field
- a desire to make a lot of money from greed not need
- And very, very rarely, a very abnormal psychology for a woman where she has a desire for sex with multiple partners or gains some perceived psychological benefit from receiving this kind of attention from men.

Monogamy is not the cause, but it is blocking the prevention and the solution for a large number of the cases we see in the world today

That preventative measure and solution is marriage whether the girls are married to a man with one or many wives, both options have to be on the table to ensure that there are enough suitable men for the women. In our case where you don?t see any single men coming forward to marry these girls, then it becomes the duty of the married men to offer a solution to these girls.

- Marriage to a responsible man, would prevent the onset of women in financial need going into prostitution and offer of marriage to those already trapped in this industry due to financial need would offer a way out, a solution.
- For the women who came into this from desire of wealth, this prioritisation in life could have been prevented if she had been offered marriage at an early age, she would have been saved from acquiring this disposition. This point would take a while to explain, I am prepared to elaborate if someone is genuinely interested in considering this further. This is also true for many of the women with abnormal psychology/desires, had her social needs been addressed early after the onset of puberty in the form of marriage, it is likely she would have avoided acquiring this disposition.


On the other side the supply side (the man?s side), the man also either has a need or a desire for this type of service. Prostitution for the man could provide a variety of things: fulfilment of sexual needs or desires, need/desire for female attention/company/acceptance, perceived benefits to one?s ego such as feeling of power, domination, control, self-importance, if done with the knowledge of others (which is usually not the case as these acts are seen as shameful, to be kept secret) to gain social acceptance, elevation of status in a group.

The way polygyny would reduce prostitution (not eliminate) can be explained with economics. The man has to make an economic decision if he wants to go to a prostitute, he has limited resources (money) and limited needs (which must be met) and unlimited desires (both of which include women as well as other things such as food, shelter, entertainment, etc). He has to prioritise the way he spends his money to give him the most benefit. If he behaves rationally, he will seek to satisfy his needs first. Once his needs as satisfied he will use the remainder of the money to gain the most additional benefit (pleasure) for himself.

The more a man has of women the more he will feel his needs and desires are being met in this area. The additional benefit that each woman would give to the man (the marginal benefit) would be less the more women he has. For example the man would feel a greater difference from going from 1 wife to 2 wives, or from 3 to 4, then he would if he goes from 16 to 17 wives. Therefore he would be prepared to spend less of the limited money he has in acquiring additional wives and would concentrate on using it for other things that he see?s would have a greater incremental benefit for himself.

Therefore if a man is quite average financially if he had one wife and he felt deprived, he might be prepared to spend some of his money on prostitution rather than other desires/needs. But if he had three wives, he might feel this desire/need is being met adequately enough to want to spend his limited money addressing other needs/desires.

For the religious man this is very true. He might say with one wife he feels his mind going to sins (wanting what is not his, etc), so spending on a prostitute would be a need for him and would gain priority. But if he had three wives and felt comfortably protected, he might feel that donating to charity would give him a greater benefit because he would not get any punishment for falling into the ?fornication of the eyes/mind? and would get bigger reward for helping the poor.

The men with great amounts of money as you see in the gulf, who do not follow religion closely (and therefore prefer to give in charity) would definitely still provide demand for prostitutes, no matter if they had many wives. This is because they don?t have limited resources to the extent that the average person would and are able to fulfil many of their desires, and feeding the poor is not one of their desires, the materialistic desires such as women, food, entertainment would be given more priority for them.

Edited by shiamuslima, 30 July 2008 - 07:46 PM.

[shiamuslima]

Armans Wife, on Jul 30 2008, 05:21 AM, said:

you're so proud of what you're doing that you blame people who are happy with one wife as the cause of prostitution??

salam alaikum

The only action that one should be proud of and that is worthy of doing of is the action that draws one closer to Allah (swt). If you saw a person suffering because they had no food, you would surely give them something to eat if you were capableof doing so. If you see someone in need and you have capability to help them your religion and your humanity pushes you to help them. To not do so is a crime against your religion, against humanity, against Allah (swt) and ultimately a crime against your self (because Allah is the Just equaliser and only those who caused harm in society will recieve the harm from it) .

Everything we have here is a trust from Allah (swt), we can't just waste it or over consume it, we must distribute it justly between the people. The purpose of our existance here is to worship Allah and to live in harmony with one another. Harmony means that everyone's needs have been catered for, elimination of poverty and deprivation of needs is the only path to peace and harmonious co-existance. If you don't give the trusts of Allah to their rightful deserving owners, these things will burn you.

The problem occured due to our limited understanding of needs. Once you understand that needs include not just food, shelter but also the social needs (the need for a partner, for love, for affection, for a family), then you would understand that every woman has a right to marriage. And if a man is capable of marrying more than one and see's unmarried women in need and suffering because of this and he doesn't go forward and marry her, then he is an accomplice in this crime and whatever sins she falls into, because he let a person starve when he had food to give her. Had he married her he would have provided for her materialistic needs, emotional needs and protected her from sins of fornication and depression. This is part of the man's charity and duty to society, that he must marry and take responsibility of the women.

The Prophet says 'the believers are like one body, if one part of the body is hurting, the whole will stay awake the night without sleep' The true believers can not see another suffering and in need and remain silent or actionless. They understand that the pain of others, the pain of humanity, is the pain of themselves. We are not here to live as selfish, seperated individuals, shutting our eyes to the pain of others, we are here as one body. Brothers and sisters in humanity.

These men (who have physical ability to marry more than one) who are happy with one wife, enjoying their life and not trying to marry again, while single women suffer hardship (financial, emotional, relgious, etc), I see them as either criminal devil's or from the ignorant. My hope is the majority is from the ignorant, that they don't understand that there is a problem. Because if they see what I see and they do nothing to elleviate the suffering caused and just go about enjoying their pleasures, then they are heartless monsters, the equivalent to which would turn away a hungry child at their door, when they had a table of food.

The action of the man that tries to keep a woman away from the sins of deprivation, of unfulfilled needs or without understanding this, an action with the intention to care for another person, love her, provide for her, is an action of the greatest mercy, a projection of the mercy of Allah, a projection of His justice and love. And this man is an agent of Allah, for the projection of the goodness and justice of God's religion, and he will be successful because he pleased his Creator and helped bring his justice to the people. This is an action of nearness to Allah, which is the only kind of action worthy to be proud of, not the action done merely to benefit one's self, one's desires and fears.

The woman who strives to possess her husband thinks only of her own benefit (she is a selfish creature unworthy of praise) and the man who seeks his own benefit by striving just to please those nearest to him (his immediate family) in order that they accept him and satisfy his needs, is also selfish as he does not care about the plight of other than those he has immediate need of, he closes out the suffering of humanity in his action. And there is nothing praiseworthy of him being happy with one wife as he has greatly damaged up to three more women and their offspring. He shut his eyes to the problems and suffering in humanity.

none of us alone can elliminate poverty or fix society, we must all do it together or at least play our roll. we must contribute whatever Allah has given to us. If we have so much money, then part of it is for our needs and the other part for the needs of another group of individuals. If the man has the finances and the health to have more than one wife (and women are not being married) then he must fulfil the obligation set to him to marry and care for another woman or women.

Edited by shiamuslima, 30 July 2008 - 08:47 PM.

[Shi3at Ali]

why r u cornering men as if they're animals? its not like cheating is only in a man's blood. why not ask the question why married ppl in general cheat

[wayfarer.]

^ true..

and jazakallah, thank u shiamuslima for the great post

[shiamuslima]

Candela, on Jul 30 2008, 06:08 AM, said:

Men also comit more crimes, molest children, start wars etc. and your point is?


It could very well have to do with POWER has it occurred to you? What happens in jails? Don't some men use other men as their you know what?
In all environments some are stronger and will show that they are by various means. Men are stronger in many ways because God has bestowed them with that, doesn't mean prostitution is justified and that you should use it as your argument for polygamy.

What is power? Power is control over resources that are scarce and needed. The want for power is the want to control resources that are used to satisfy needs and desires. Why does a man want to feel like he has power over women, e.g. to dominate them, or to rape them? Because he wants to feel that he always has access to the resources required to satisfy his needs, he feels threatened that his needs might not be met, and out of fear he reacts to obtain what he wants. He can react in a logical way (to get what he wants without attacking the rights of others) for example through marrying women, or he can obtain this in a way that violates others rights through forcing himself. In jail obviously men become a substitute for satisfying the sexual needs, so having power over the weaker men is the way some men would feel that they are able to satisfy their needs (without consideration of others rights). There has to be a need for some commodity for there to be a power struggle, in the real world you don't see men going around raping each other because they don't have a need for men, they have women available. The cause may appear to be power, but the root underlying cause for the power struggle is the satisfaction of a need, the sexual needs.

As you mentioned, men commit more wars, crimes, molest children, why is that? All people do everything in a reaction to a need or to a desire, both men and women. The person develops the behaviour that they most logically see will secure them what they desire. For a woman it is illogical to use the violence and agression method, because she will not be able to physically overpower a man. But because a man is able to physically overpower others it has lead some of them to cultivate this behaviour as part of a strategy to fulfil their needs. Hence men have a greater tendency towards aggression, which translates itself into men perhaps commiting war more often and crimes. Although I would say, had women been in leadership more throughout history, I would think there would most likely have been many more wars than what we saw.

As for molestation, why do men do this more? I would say that this comes back to the starting point of our discussion, men naturally have a stronger need for sex than women. For a woman to have her need satisfied, she would just need to approach a number of men and surely one would accept. But for a man if he is undesired and doesn't have access to women, eventually he will grow an abnormal attraction to whatever he has access to, which unfortunately in many cases is children. That's why you see a lot of molestation from priests, they can't access women easily without completely compromising their livelihood, so they turn to children which they believe will be undiscovered.  

The problem is we don't even understand ourselves so how can we understand others and live in a harmonious world? Most crime develops as a result of an unmet need of a person, or as a result of the person not being able to think logically to satisfy their needs (in the case they lack sanity). In fact the reactive person is like an insane person, their emotions overcome them to a level they are no longer able to think with logic.

Imam Ali says that ?anger is a stroke of madness; it starts with violence and ends in remorse.? Anger is the power to reject something, it is a reaction to our fears in order to protect ourselves. This power in moderation is very beneficial, it ensures our continued survival, we can protect our rights and the rights of others, but if we use this power in excess we will abuse the rights of others (we will steal from them, attack them, etc), or in deficiency we will become abused.

A person has four powers: the power of passion and desire, the power of anger, the power of the intellect and the power of imagination. All powers have a reason to ensure that the person is able to fulfil God?s plan.

It?s very ingenious really. We desire the things that will keep us healthy and alive and fear the things that will lessen our health and cause death. So each person strives for what will benefit them most, and when they realise what will benefit them most is submitting to Allah (swt), then naturally they will seek to obey him and do good to others. The power of anger (rejection) is needed to keep harms away, the power of desire is needed to spur one on to obtain their needs to gain benefit and the intellect and imagination are used to understand the reality of what benefits us and what harms us.

Most of us are good at reacting to our desire and our anger (our emotions), but few of us fully utilise our intellect and comprehend what really benefits us and what harms us. If we used our intellect we would realise that all of society respecting each others rights and not attacking each others rights is the best way to ensure even the individual self?s benefit, because if we all don?t attack others, we won?t be attacked.

The problem is we are not Allah, we don?t have complete access to the information which tells us what benefits us and what harms us, so we come to wrong conlclusions and start attacking the rights of others. But thankfully Allah (swt) is so merciful, He did the thinking for us and all we need to do is follow his rules and we can live in perfect harmony.

Women become emotional against polygyny because they have come to the wrong conclusion about it because they are using wrong and incomplete information. If they understood that they would benefit more from this, and would be harmed if they opposed it, then logically they would accept God?s law, not reject it and attack it.

The problem is women have not thought about it. They have just reacted from limited information and their emotions. They don?t feel a need to overpower men physically but feel a need to possess him exclusively, because their emotion tells them they need full control over what will provide them with their needs, they are afraid to lose this source of security and physical/emotional comfort to them. If they used their intellect and started to think that God is all-knowing (and doesn?t make mistakes) and only wants the best for us (is Just) then they would accept this law in practice and search and try to understand the reason behind this law because it must be for humanities benefit.

A little bit of a look into this would tell the woman that common practice of polygyny in society is far better for them and a protection for them, than only monogamy. I can explain if you would like more insight into this.

Edited by shiamuslima, 31 July 2008 - 12:09 AM.

[AnotherUmmAli]

as salam alaykum,

Sister ShiaMuslima, Men do not molest children because they lack access to women, especially not in the many where sex with adult women is easily and CHEAPLY accessible.  Rape and molestation are a means of fulfilling a psychological or spiritual lack through sexual domination, they are not at their root sexual. They are a dysfunction. A man who can only feel confident through forcing sex on the weak has a spiritual disease. Do you know the Islamic punishment for rape? It's not a few months spent with the psychologist to explore the root of a man's unmet sexual needs, nor is it to demand that women make themselves more sexually available.  

There seems to be a link in men between killing and sex which has been noted in some studies of war. Men do seem to have this drive to dominate which is linked to their arousal but just because it comes naturally does not mean the way its expressed is always good. Islam demands us to control our lower desires. We can never progress any higher than animals if we use our desires as an excuse to bring harm to others.  Pedophiles do not like adult women, they ONLY find children arousing. They are sick and need spiritual and psychological help, not more women to sacrifice themselves at the alter of the male libido.  Once a child shows signs of maturity pedophiles are no longer interested. That's the difference between a true pedophile and a man who just likes young women.  The logical conclusion according to your line of thinking would be to provide them with a halal means of accessing sex with children. Hmmm I wonder what that would look like, an endless procession of girls between 9-11 in mut'a houses for pedophiles? Then they can be thrown out once they show signs of maturity so they can act as [Edited Out]s for whoever will have them? Should the entire population suffer to meet the sexual desires of men? For some men, an adult woman simply does not interest them.  

Truthfully, most women I've known don't reject God's law, its man's injustice they reject. I'll give you an example. There is a very real and frightening shortage of available African American men. This has been the case for more than one generation now which has lead to an absolute crises in my community. Black women are the most unpartnered women in the world and in the U.S. Black women and far east Asian men are the least likely to marry of all ethnic groups. The result is a terrifyingly high number of out of wedlock births and all the social problems that result. Because of this, many African American women have consented to live in polygynous relationships. This is true both of non Muslim women and Muslim women, but it has played out differently in each group.  With the Muslim group many men have acted just as many of the men and their supporters on this thread have, constantly asserting a man's need and right to many women while ignoring the needs and rights of those women. Man, after all, is supposed to be the protector and provider of women, not just the harem keeper. Polygyny is about the needs of societies not just men's desires otherwise men would have no responsibility to women and children, only a right to sex. If a man does not treat his wives fairly, Allah (swt) will have him cleaved in half on the day of judgement. Does that sound like a system founded to service the desires of men?

As it stands Allah (swt) has placed a very heavy burden on men, but when the Muslims and their culture of women hatred forget about God to focus on men you end up with dramatically skewed families where it's all about male need and desire. What has resulted on a frighteningly large scale in many African American Muslim communities is men who are either serial polygymists (marry several, divorce. marry several more, divorce) or men who have many wives who are working to support him and providing little support to the families and children. And, as quiet as it's apparently kept, this happens often in Arab American communities too. There are similar issues with married men in mut'a in Lebanon and other shi'a countries where vulnerable women are mistreated and taken advantaged of in this same culture of male desires being placed at the forefront while male responsibility is an afterthought. When children growing up seeing this as "Islam" as it is pounded into their heads by many like the people on this very thread, they see Allah (swt) as unjust and Islam as a tool of oppression. And they would be correct about the latter, the religion of justice and liberation is used as a tool of oppression.

MANY women are very willing to accept polygyny I've known a few who even preferred it because of the freedom it offered them from the resources needed to devote to a "full time" husband, its wide spread abuse of the institution and of Islam itself that turns women away. Myself, I'd love to have a sister-wife with whom to raise our children, pool our resources etc. I have many faults, but jealousy isn't really one of them. And I know that if my husband had the resources and the inclination (he has neither) he'd be just, but what I'd never accept is the kind of abuse and loop-hole jumping i've seen in 99% of polygynous marriages which have destroyed families, communities and the religion of so many of their offspring.

Edited by AnotherUmmAli, 31 July 2008 - 11:45 AM.

[macisaac]

AnotherUmmAli, on Jul 31 2008, 12:21 PM, said:

Truthfully, most women I've known don't reject God's law, its man's injustice they reject. I'll give you an example. There is a very real and frightening shortage of available African American men. This has been the case for more than one generation now which has lead to an absolute crises in my community. Black women are the most unpartnered women in the world and in the U.S. Black women and Far east Asian men are the least likely to marry of all ethnic groups. The result is a terrifyingly high number of out of wedlock births and all the social problem that result. Because of this many African American women have consented to live in polygynous relationships. This is true both of non Muslim women and Muslim women, but it has played out differently in each group.  With the Muslim group though, many men have acted just as many of the men and their supporters on this thread have, constantly asserting a man's need and right to many women while ignoring the needs and rights of those women. Man, after all, is supposed to be the protector and provider of women, not just the harem keeper. Polygyny is about the needs of societies not just men's sex, otherwise men would have no responsibility to women and children, only a right to sex.

But if there's a huge surplus of unmarried African American sisters (and from what I've read, speaking of the African American population in general, what you're saying here is accurate), what would you suggest that brothers do to alleviate that?  Wouldn't the solution then be to marry them?  But if there's a surplus to the ratio of marriageable Muslim men, doesn't that necessitate that at least some brothers will be having more than one wife?

Quote

As it stands Allah (swt) has placed a very heavy burden on men, but when the Muslims and their culture of women hatred forget about God to focus on men you end up with dramatically skewed families where it's all about male need and desire. What has resulted on a frighteningly large scale in many African American Muslim communities is men who are either serial polygymists (marry several, divorce. marry several more, divorce) or men who have many wives who are working to support him and providing little support to the families and children. And, as quiet as it's apparently kept, this happens often in Arab American communities too. When children growing up seeing this as "Islam" as it is pounded into their heads by many like the people on this very thread, they see Allah (swt) as unjust and Islam as a tool of oppression.  MANY women are very willing to accept polygyny I've known a few who even preferred it because of the freedom it offered them from the resources needed to devote to a "full time" husband, its wide spread abuse of the institution and of Islam itself that turns women away. Myself, I'd love to have a sister-wife with whom to raise our children, pool our resources etc. I have many faults, but jealousy isn't really one of them. And I know that if my husband had the resources and the inclination (he has neither) he'd be just, but what I'd never accept is the kind of abuse and loop-hole jumping i've seen in 99% of polygynous marriages which have destroyed families, communities and the religion of so many of their offspring.

In terms of the 99% you're mentioning, I think it would be more accurate to specify what culture you're referring to in particular.  In a traditional society where the rights _and_ responsibilities of a man and woman are more firmly ingrained, I would have a hard time believing the rate of failure to be so high as you're mentioning.  Why would such practice persist if it were so almost universally unfavorable to promoting stronger social/familial bonds and workings, and why would Allah have allowed for polygyny in Islam then?

That said, I think I do know what you're talking about.  That is, African American convert men getting involved in polygamous marriages.  I know that might sound racist and upsetting, but this is what I've seen.  As an African American, there's a higher chance they aren't well off to begin with.  In some cases, they might not even have a steady job from which to obtain an income.  However, what's one of the first things they might get taught (usually by other African American converts) when they convert?  You need to get married.  And what is quickly encouraged thereafter?  Get a second (or third or fourth) wife.  Since the brother is poor to begin with, hardly able to support a single family, what do you think will happen if he now starts taking on extra wives?

I know what you're talking about here.  The shame for instance of having one of those extra wives go to the social security office and apply for welfare.  And, since they can't declare themselves legally married, and, since she might now have children with her husband, she has to declare herself single, thereby presenting herself as an unwed mother.  This is just disgraceful and should be stopped.  Many of these families fall apart, and the man who thought he'd have three wives ends up in the end with only one left, if that.

This isn't a problem though with the institution of polygyny itself.  The problem is in how some people are going about this.

[AnotherUmmAli]

macisaac, on Jul 31 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

But if there's a huge surplus of unmarried African American sisters (and from what I've read, speaking of the African American population in general, what you're saying here is accurate), what would you suggest that brothers do to alleviate that?  Wouldn't the solution then be to marry them?  But if there's a surplus to the ratio of marriageable Muslim men, doesn't that necessitate that at least some brothers will be having more than one wife?

My argument isn't about the institution, I'm very pro-polygyny. The problem is the ideas that I am seeing on this thread, which are dangerous and based in myth. They place male desire at the center of Muslim family law at the expense of the needs and desires of women and children. It creates a culture where women and children can be used and abused and that abuse is justified by the community, reinforced by the clergy and leaves a gaping hole of injustice through which shaitan struts in and leads many men and women off the path.

macisaac, on Jul 31 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

In terms of the 99% you're mentioning, I think it would be more accurate to specify what culture you're referring to in particular.  In a traditional society where the rights _and_ responsibilities of a man and woman are more firmly ingrained, I would have a hard time believing the rate of failure to be so high as you're mentioning.  Why would such practice persist if it were so almost universally unfavorable to promoting stronger social/familial bonds and workings, and why would Allah have allowed for polygyny in Islam then?

That said, I think I do know what you're talking about.  That is, African American convert men getting involved in polygamous marriages.  I know that might sound racist and upsetting, but this is what I've seen.  As an African American, there's a higher chance they aren't well off to begin with.  In some cases, they might not even have a steady job from which to obtain an income.  However, what's one of the first things they might get taught (usually by other African American converts) when they convert?  You need to get married.  And what is quickly encouraged thereafter?  Get a second (or third or fourth) wife.  Since the brother is poor to begin with, hardly able to support a single family, what do you think will happen if he now starts taking on extra wives?

I don't think you sound racist and I'm never upset so long as the truth is acknowleged without prejudice. Each community has its issues. That being said, I used the African American community as an example only because you can see in that community how polygyny is needed and where women's jealousy isn't the primary barrier to its implementation. It's not just the African American community that deals with the fall out from corrupted Muslim culture, though. It's widely known, but not openly discussed, that similar abuses exist in Lebanon where there is also a marriageable man shortage. This is more often through mut'a with widows, which still place women and children in precarious positions. It is also frighteningly common for similar abuses to occur with convert women and immigrant men in the U.S. and Europe, one again  through mut'a and nikah. Too many bad apples have spoiled the bunch and instead of men berating women for their jealousy, we need to be teaching men responsibility and the serious consequences of their focus on their desire above all else.

macisaac, on Jul 31 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

This isn't a problem though with the institution of polygyny itself.  The problem is in how some people are going about this.

Agreed, and the the incessant reinforcement of male desire as uncontrollable and its fulfillment central to the success of the ummah nurtures the problems that corrupt the whole institution.

Edited by AnotherUmmAli, 31 July 2008 - 12:05 PM.

[yesI'moriginallyamerican]

assalamalaikum,
Because they can

[alimohamad40]

alslam alaikum

Quote

Hmmm I wonder what that would look like, an endless procession of girls between 9-11 in mut'a houses for pedophiles? Then they can be thrown out once they show signs of maturity so they can act as [Edited Out]s for whoever will have them? Should the entire population suffer to meet the sexual desires of men? For some men, an adult woman simply does not interest them.

another um Ali

whats wrong with marrying 9 year olds? both  our prophet and imam ali did that
I dont know your defenition of pedophile buut i know that your a pupet and a parrot for the west. early mariage is pedophilia but early fornication through boyfriend girlfriend is romance and LOVE isnt it?? remember we dont worship holywood so we dont derive our morals from them...

do you worship god or your gender or holywood?

Your saying female jealousy is not the cause of the abandeoning of the polygyny…..  most divorce cases that I know are because the man has gone for another woman and his first wife attacks him and divorces him for that

I am one example…

And imam Ali says the “woman’s jealousy is kufr”

Edited by alimohamad40, 31 July 2008 - 05:46 PM.

[waiting]

alimohamad40, on Jul 31 2008, 12:37 AM, said:

Yes in the islamic Fiqh  (juripridence) if the man looks at other women than his own wife/wives then it means he is falling into sin and the rule says that if your afraid of potential sin then second marriage becomes wajib ( compulsry)  on you just like the prayer

all scholars agree with this openion.

Source for the above (that a second marriage is mandatory if a man looks at another woman)?

[alimohamad40]

alslalam alaikum:
waiting:

Quote

Source for the above (that a second marriage is mandatory if a man looks at another woman)?

just go to the main forum , on the very top wylayah has pasted fatwas about the rule of mutluiple mariage... there is an agreement that if the married  man is afraid from potential sin then the second mariage becomes wajib....  I have put up fatwas 100s of times///  

Its very clear what a potential sin is,,, potential sin is not even looking but desiring to look or approaching the stage of looking... when you start looking and dwelling its an actual sin so there is no doubt that its wajib in that case.

Most maried men that i see not only they look but they dwell and fantisize and act upon it... many of them flirt,... many fornicate, some gays ....  

so god says that if your afraid that you will fal into sin then you MUSTgo and get married until you stop fantisizing and/or sinning.

Edited by alimohamad40, 31 July 2008 - 06:03 PM.

[shiamuslima]

Salam aleikum,

Thank you sister for your comments

Let us fight the battle against injustice, and those who oppose what is in the religion, lets not fight the battle against men or against women, and definitely not against the religion and against justice.

We should oppose the people who treat anyone unjustly regardless of whether they are men or women, whether a man is unjust to his one wife or to his four wives, or between his children, or between his neighbours and the same for a women treating others unfairly.

The man who is unjust to his one wife or between two wives, we should deem him bad because he goes against the religion and he goes against humanity.

The woman who opposes her husband taking another, or who discourages polygyny or anything else in the religion, lets deem her bad and anti-religion also. Because she causes injustice in society by taking the rights of other women to have a husband.

Both of these things are problems because the religion is not being followed completely. It is blindness to say that the problem falls only or mostly on one side. Women are not saints and men are not saints, the truth is the majority of men and women are anti-religion and choose the parts of the religion that suit them.

Yes, in cases where the shortage of men becomes so dramatic many women will inevitably end up sharing a man (because they have no other choice, not particularly because they like to do so or because they want to practice what Allah recommended). This is the example you found in your community. Other times women agree to share a man in secret by being a mistress, but their ultimate goal stays to possess him (to make him leave the other woman).

But these examples are rare in contrast to the attitude of the majority. The majority of the Muslim women (and I have spoken to a lot of women, in many different countries), do not concentrate on opposing injustice; they concentrate a lot of attention on opposing polygyny regardless of how the man treats his wives. They don’t say ‘the man should marry all the women who need husbands and should treat them according to Islam with fairness and kindness.’ Unless the man is an extreme abuser of his one wife, they don’t usually complain about the monogamous husbands bad treatment of his one wife. They concentrate on bad examples of polygyny and say even if their husband is a good man, they don’t want to share him, they even make contracts to stop him from taking another wife.

The example of your community is not particularly representative of the majority of women I have encountered, please allow me to let you see the kind of examples I encounter everyday. Scroll through the numerous topics in this forum and see how so many of the women, say ‘never, ever, polygyny’ no matter what the situation ‘I’ll divorce him, I’ll kill him, etc’ Maybe there are at a very generous maximum 10% on these forums who say in special situation they would ‘allow’ it, and I have only seen one or two women here who actually promoted and said they want their husband to have another wife.

Let neither side be blind of their own faults. You say the problem today is when the man’s desires are put at the forefront of the religion, then we see injustice. I also see this problem, but also I see a problem when the woman’s desires are put at the forefront of the religion. I see a huge number of cases the woman is fighting the religion saying ‘no way can I share my husband, I’ll divorce him’, the woman puts her desires at the forefront of the religion and causes injustice in society because many women are then left without husbands and families. The problem is not with men or with women, it is with the self, with the self putting their desires at the forefront of the religion.

If everyone put justice at the front of their religion, then we would all live in harmony, and everyone’s needs would be fulfilled and rights would be observed. But what we see now is just a war between the sexes with each side concentrating on their own desires being blind to the needs of the other than their selves or their own kind. Emphasizing the part of the religion which gives them what they want and ignoring other parts of the religion which require their sacrifice and effort for the benefit of others. The truthful stand for justice.

I post this for now, I will address the first half of your post in another post, inshallah because there are many important things you mentioned.

[waiting]

alimohamad40, on Jul 31 2008, 10:49 PM, said:

alslalam alaikum:
waiting:

just go to the main forum , on the very top wylayah has pasted fatwas about the rule of mutluiple mariage... there is an agreement that if the married  man is afraid from potential sin then the second mariage becomes wajib....  I have put up fatwas 100s of times///

I looked at them and I can't see any rulings stating that it's mandatory to get married to a second wife if you look at a woman.

[Muhammed Ali]

alimohamad40, on Jul 31 2008, 11:49 PM, said:

alslalam alaikum:
waiting:

just go to the main forum , on the very top wylayah has pasted fatwas about the rule of mutluiple mariage... there is an agreement that if the married  man is afraid from potential sin then the second mariage becomes wajib....  I have put up fatwas 100s of times///  

Its very clear what a potential sin is,,, potential sin is not even looking but desiring to look or approaching the stage of looking... when you start looking and dwelling its an actual sin so there is no doubt that its wajib in that case.

Most maried men that i see not only they look but they dwell and fantisize and act upon it... many of them flirt,... many fornicate, some gays ....  

so god says that if your afraid that you will fal into sin then you MUSTgo and get married until you stop fantisizing and/or sinning.

bro that is going too far. if the 2nd marrige will stop him sinning then maybe its wajib but to say that a man must marry a 2nd just cause he looks at a woman is too much ...... if he already has a wife that has the same thigns as other women then how will it help him to marry another? haven't you read the saying of imam ali when some men stared at a woman? did he say go and marry a 2nd wife? no! he said go to your own wives. he said all women have the same things. so your statement would be refuted by imam ali.



what if he has 4 wives and looks? he should do 100s of mutahs?

the problem is society. men desire multipe partners becasue they are corrupt spiritually

Edited by Muhammed Ali, 31 July 2008 - 08:31 PM.

[Muhammed Ali]

I am sorry to say this but many people are afraid to admit that men are greatly encouraged to be unfaithful because of external reasons. Even most feminists won’t admit that one of the main reasons men cheat and have such destructive attitudes is because of what they see and what society tells them.

Forget all these guys on shiachat, our great scholar ayatullah mutahhari says:

Quote

However, we do not agree with the belief that the natural disposition of man is at variance with monogamy. We are against the idea that the inclination of man towards variety is beyond reform. We are opposed to the belief that faithfulness is impossible for man, and that one woman is created for one man, and one man for all women.

We believe that the social environment brings into being the factors of infidelity in man, and not his creation and nature. Creation is not responsible for unfaithfulness; it is the social environment. The factors of unfaithfulness are brought into being by the social environment, which on the one hand induces a woman to use all her tactics for temptation and attraction on a complete stranger, to use a thousand and one tricks for enchanting him, to divert man from his way, and which, on the other hand, deprived hundred of thousands of women, fit and in need of marriage, from getting married, and sends them out into society to tempt and seduce men on the excuse that only legal form of marriage is monogamy.

Before the manners and customs of the West became widely received with approbation in the Muslim East, ninety men out of hundred were earnest monogamists. Neither had they more than one legal wife nor did they amuse themselves with concubines and loves. Exclusive marriages, in the real sense of the word, were in vogue in almost all Islamic families.

[alimohamad40]

alsalam alaikum

I will get the fatwas when i get home inshallah... the idea is that if he looks at other women and fantesize  it means he wants another wife and when he gets that he will stop looking...  its so simple.... like a hungry human.. cmapred to one who is full who just had his lunch.... if some one is full and you try to lure him with the best types of foods you will fail becaue he is full however if he is hungry and allways kept in that way then one day will come that he will propably steal to eat....  
thats why imam Ali Says " hunger is kafir" and he says "If hunger was a man i would kill him" .
Now we have god the most wise saying that what would fill the mans need could be anything between 1 - 4 permenant wives so who are you to say that one is enough???  

if one was this thread written??
you could only conclude two thnigs from this thread because its a reality,,,

1) that men are evil and women are saints ( and we know this is not true and the humans are all the same)
2) that the man'as actions represent a ginuine need that Allah created in him but the socities do not acknowledge it

The qustion is would a man be prone to fornication if he had 2 or 3 or 4 wives???  
Remember that the west controls the muslims by the sex and food because they are desperate and easily lured due to thier abandeoning of thier laws.


The biggest traffic on pornoography on the internet is coming from the arab states.

Imam Ali (and not mutahari) says that : "everytime you close one door of hallal YOU are opening 1000s of doors for haraam"

Mutaharies book:
I have read shaheed mutaharies book called " womens rights in islam"

At one point he says " temproary marrriage is not allowed for a maried man" then in the next sentence he says " the infalibles promoted temproary marriage even for those who DID NOT NEED it to revive a dead sunnah and the masomeen encouraged everyone to do it "

two contradictory statements in one paragraph , it looked like he was presenting many possibilities not giving and oppenion because if he was then it would be a contradictory openion...


brother Muhamad Ali:

it seems like you had problem to understand the fatwa i pasted for abulqasim Alkhoie so i dont have a hope that you will understand the next ones that i will paste either..  
which language are you best at are you a strong arabic speaker so i could send you the origional?

I will paste it again tell me what do you understand from these fatwas ? i will highlight the parts with red:

Abul Qasim Al Khooie:

Fatwa number 3633: (strongly) there is no difference in the recommendation of marriage between some one who desired it or some one who didnt desire it due to the general nature of the narrations. and because the benefit of it is not limited only to satisfying the desire but it has its benefits including the increase in the generations and the people who say la ilaha illa Allah as its reported from imam baqir that the prophet said: "what stops a faithful from getting a family so that god would give him a breath that will fill the earth with la illaha illa Allah?" ( my translating of the hadeeth is not very accurate)

Fatwa number 3634: The Recommendation doesn't stop at the first marriage but polygamy is also Mustahab , god said " marry what is desirable for you 2, three and four" alnisaa, 3, and whats apparent from the evidence is that the recommendation is not confined in the permenant and the temporary marriage only but extends even further to include the marriage to the right hand Possessions as well (mulk alyameen).

Fatwa number 3635: The recommendation is within the act itself regardless of whether the one who does it intends to get closer to Allah by that action or no. Yes in order for it to be a worship and rewarding the intention of getting closer to Allah is compulsory

reference:
http://www.shiachat....showtopic=21814

Edited by alimohamad40, 31 July 2008 - 10:07 PM.

[Scylla]

Quote

As for molestation, why do men do this more? I would say that this comes back to the starting point of our discussion, men naturally have a stronger need for sex than women. For a woman to have her need satisfied, she would just need to approach a number of men and surely one would accept. But for a man if he is undesired and doesn't have access to women, eventually he will grow an abnormal attraction to whatever he has access to, which unfortunately in many cases is children. That's why you see a lot of molestation from priests, they can't access women easily without completely compromising their livelihood, so they turn to children which they believe will be undiscovered.

Shiamuslima, can I know your credentials?

[I Believe]

Some of the viewpoints held by some members on this forum with regards to the molestation of children are very very alarming. Don't be surprised if we see some of these very posts on Answering Islam or some other website.

[Scylla]

^ Can you provide some links?

[alimohamad40]

alslam alaikum

Supporting the previous posts about the reason behind the preists' behaviour I just came across this topic today in the news headlines:

Preacher killed wife, stuffed body in freezer, police say:

http://edition.cnn.c...ezer/index.html

this is what your creating by prohibiting the lawful , look at the examples of these priests... they prohibited the lawful and this is the result...  our  communities is not much cleaner than this...  and the reason is closing the doors of hallal... think about it

i just came across another headline related to this topic what a conincident.... is it a coincident or is it a real problem so prevalant?  

Child prostitution up after Kenya's election bloodshed:
http://edition.cnn.c...n.ap/index.html

and just to remind you again

more than 50 000 iraqi teen girls have become prostitutes in syria, thanx to our monogomist socity:

http://www.independe...ion-454424.html

Edited by alimohamad40, 01 August 2008 - 12:14 AM.