36 replies to this topic

[hasanhh]

hameedeh, on 12 May 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Imam Khomeini RA:

In order to assure the unity of the Islamic ummah, in order to liberate the Islamic homeland from occupation and penetration by the imperialists and their puppet governments, it is imperative that we establish a government. In order to attain the unity and freedom of the Muslim peoples, we must overthrow the oppressive governments installed by the imperialists and bring into existence an Islamic government of justice that will be in the service of the people. The formation of such a government will serve to preserve the disciplined unity of the Muslims; just as Fātimah az-Zahrā[83] ('a) said in her address: "The Imamate exists for the sake of preserving order among the Muslims and replacing their disunity with unity".

See Section 2 in the book Islamic Government: Governance of the Jurist. http://www.al-islam....amicgovernment/

A couple of tmes, I have both heard and read that the biggest obstacle to this is that everyone thinks he has the "right" to be the biggest show-off.
Now that is a problem Imam Mahdi will not have.

[hameedeh]

Specific duties of an Islamic government

It would be convenient for our reader to take a quick look at the specific duties of an Islamic government before glancing at its political hierarchy.

1. To guarantee the implementation of laws which directly concern citizens.

2. To implement penal and criminal laws which directly pertain to the state. That is, if certain persons do not act upon or violate basic laws, the state is obliged to punish or penalize them on the basis of law.

3. To meet the needs of society which only the state can meet and are beyond the capability of individuals and groups. An illustrious example of these needs is the issue of defense against foreign enemies.

4. To meet those needs which initially did not pertain to the state as common citizens used to meet them, but which cannot be performed by them anymore.

5. One of the important and crucial responsibilities of the state is the exploitation of national wealth and resources which in the Islamic culture is called “anfal”; for example, forests, seas, mines, oil and gas, gold mines, and other public wealth which have no specific owners and no one has the right to personally exploit them. There is a need for the “state” to properly exploit these resources in favor of society.

6. Last and most important, the distinctive feature of the Islamic state is that apart from meeting the material needs and discharging the duties which all states have, the spiritual needs of society must also be addressed. Along this line, preservation of Islamic rites, offering public religious education, providing opportunities for the propagation of Islam, and the realization of Islamic objectives are among the exclusive duties of the Islamic state.

Excerpt from here: http://www.al-islam...._Yazdi_v2/8.htm

[Reshad]

koroigetsuga, on 12 June 2008 - 11:36 AM, said:

Absolutely nothing. An islamic state can only be run by an infallible being, and until the occultation ends there will be no islamic state

Take a look at the disaster that is Iran; that has birthed an entire generation of agnostics, atheists and irreligious people who hate islam and blame it for what their mullahs are putting them through. this is what happens when muslims try to mimic the atmosphere that is reserved only for Imam of the time.

We cannot have an islamic state until the Imam returns. But we can create democratic, pluralistic and tolerant countries based on the foundations of islam. We can't have something as illogical as a caliphate, but we can encourage muslim countries to take on a plat form similar to the European Union to encourage a pan-muslim alliance, something that our enemies fear the most, hence they keep us divided amongst ourselves.

i dont necessarily agree with everything, but thats a very good point

[Renaissance_Man]

^

I think the above goals are shared by many nations, not just Islamic nations.  And people generally agree conceptually on what an Islamic government should do.  The differences of opinion though arise over what form it should take and who should run it.  Take Iran and Iraq for example...both countries have Islamic governments but take very different forms.  Whose vision do you follow?

[Ahmed Ismael]

You cannot " make a simple outline " of Religion or of matter of Religious Scholarly debate or Religious Scholarly discussion.

You would, should one so wish, have to go through the entire exigetical discernment of What God Had to Say on the issue and not just very quickly concisely conjecture.

The so-called "united states" on the other hand , actually DOES have a very very indepth tediously nuanced and enormous, in terms of volumes of written, compiled, matter of legal issue, stores from which to draw of debate and legal discussion in making audible, publically announced its own " outline," to use the same English language 'word' but in the fuller sense of it,


Sharia cannot be 'reduced' to the basic so-called " must haves " or essentials. God did not leave an earth with 'carbon-copy' 'cookie-cutter' standard forms to be judged and legally discerned. Ther exist no 'essentials' or 'must haves' to which a legal authoritative body can reduce jurisprudence and safeguarding man's greater society. Legal debate involves the entire Quran and debate of all that comes to mind in the general and in the detail of the particular in each of the seperate individual cases. It CANNOT be nonsensically ' REDUCED ' to your so-called " must haves " of matter of interpretation of law. You, may I remind the reader, are not the 'determiner' of judgement of such matter yourself. There are 'professionals' so to speak who do that !

You would want to listen to God Himself first on the seperate and individual matter, issue at hand, in the particular case to be debated, judged, argued. To do otherwise, would, should I dare say, be as good as behaving yourself a so-called 'good Christian believer.' (Which is relatively invalid in God's Eyes.)

Believers are 'at war' with the people of the disbelievers, unbelievers. Believers are 'in an effort' to [we shall ] OVER COME the efforts made by the unbelievers those which go against God and which go against God's Better Judgement. There is truly a LOT to be debated and you cannot, Can Not, " make [the matter of legal interpretation] a simple outline. " This is a 'foolish' reply of yours, I dare say it.  You could use the thoughts gleaned from it as fodder for some more "interesting things to do between Fard salah" if you like.  [My God! Cincinnatti's online cafe and lounge culture; Are you familiar there in Cincinnatti with 'Kemal' who keeps the

http://kali-yuga.org/?p=181

discussion and blog site?]

Now take this in the best way: "From your [sic] rhetoric [read; 'rhetorical'] 'contrivances'," as you yourself attempt to articulate in your own words of thoughts on the issue, i.e. "We can set up any form of social administration, gov't, we want to." Again, this is another 'poorly thought out idea.' To put it in words to which I surmise you might be a little more accustomed in the circles in which you may see "you can go in the men's room and do in there whatever you want.' But this as you may more plainly see, by the eloboration in my having put it that way, can go against God. And arguably it should'nt.

Quran is revealed as 'guidance' to [m]an not by utopian mastermind. Quran is revealed as 'guidance' to [m]an by Himself.

" Please re-read my boldfaced grading above. " Nonsense, nonsense; no one has to make study of your opinion and your previously proferred choice words.

Quran exists I would say in my own opinion for the sake of preserving order among the Muslims and replacing their disunity with unity. But there are many many of us reading it and knowing God through its message brought down sent down upon each one's heart. And each and every hearer, each and every reader, is another mind and another life experience and so we talk. Is it U or is it me. Certainly God Knows best, as the moslemically 'oft heard phrase goes.


( * . . ( * . . ( * . . ( *

[hasanhh]

I read your reference Hameedah. I've read things like this before, as they are more like college classes than applied politics.

I noticed in the next section, there was "knowledge of law". Khalif Umar always had such people around him as he didn't consider himself well enoughed versed.
Secondly, why have the requirements for a jurist for a national administrator, who administers within the law to begin with?

The "mineral rights" being de facto State property would be a peacemaker in many parts of the World... Islamic countries included. All monies depositied into the Treasury.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

It will be very important to determine the extend/scope of authority the scholars leading the Islamic government could exercise.

Imam Husain in his sermon of Mina:

O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of you, so that even powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you favours they deny themselves . When the people do not receive their due. they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty of kings and princes.

Source: http://www.imamreza....eza.php?id=7102

[hasanhh]

muhibb-ali, on 24 May 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

Salam.

It will be very important to determine the extend/scope of authority the scholars leading the Islamic government could exercise.

Assalamallikum,

Your quote suggests that scholars 'do not lead'.

And you do not need to be a mullah to administer/lead and islamic state.

[muhibb-ali]

hasanhh, on 25 May 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

Assalamallikum,

Your quote suggests that scholars 'do not lead'.

And you do not need to be a mullah to administer/lead and islamic state.

Salam.

Not sure how my quote suggests that.

What I wanted to highlight is that the the scope of the authority and the scholars and its implementation in terms of permisibility of use of force etc is something that is to be scrutinized.

Wassalam

[syedmaroof]

We live in Kashmir and we have no islamic state

[Ahmed Ismael]

muhibb-ali, on 25 May 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Salam.

Not sure how my quote suggests that.

What I wanted to highlight is that the the scope of the authority and the scholars and its implementation in terms of permisibility of use of force etc is something that is to be scrutinized.

Wassalam

.  .  .  .  But, it would need to be scrutinized by who if not by the Religious scholars?

[hasanhh]

muhibb-ali, on 25 May 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Salam.

Not sure how my quote suggests that.

What I wanted to highlight is that the the scope of the authority and the scholars and its implementation in terms of permisibility of use of force etc is something that is to be scrutinized.

Wassalam

In an islamic state, every adult knows something about islam. Hadith included. Scholars would be mostly in the judicial and educational systems. Some would run for office, like in Iran.
Not to ask this as a 'disruptive', but what level of completed study is "scholar', instructor, or whatever?
One thing I did not write about above would be "compatability or encroachment". Particularly "encroachment". The secular components of a state regulations could find a regulation "encroaching" into sharia. (Somebody else can, for now, think of an example). This is something that has to be argued out. So you have two ways of doing this. You can either have the highest islamic court have "original case" jurisdiction, hearing the arguements and settling it. Or, you could have ad hoc writs where a court/hearing is convened. This second way has the advantage of being out of local politics, if so chosen, because any competent scholar could hear the petition. Example for this: say the petition contends that a food and drug regulation encroaches-on or violates sharia. This happens in a Gulf State, as an example. Then any trained scholar from an African or another Asian state is qualified to hear the case. If the ad hoc writ is written by three scholars from say, Mali, Indonesia and Pakistan, then their ruling is outside local political considerations and an accurate ruling can be made.