36 replies to this topic

[Sr. Shelia]

AsSalaama Alaykum,


What is it that we as muslims would have to do in order to establish an islamic state?

Sr. Shelia

[koroigetsuga]

Sr. Shelia, on Jun 12 2008, 05:36 AM, said:

AsSalaama Alaykum,


What is it that we as muslims would have to do in order to establish an islamic state?

Sr. Shelia

Absolutely nothing. An islamic state can only be run by an infallible being, and until the occultation ends there will be no islamic state

Take a look at the disaster that is Iran; that has birthed an entire generation of agnostics, atheists and irreligious people who hate islam and blame it for what their mullahs are putting them through. this is what happens when muslims try to mimic the atmosphere that is reserved only for Imam of the time.

We cannot have an islamic state until the Imam returns. But we can create democratic, pluralistic and tolerant countries based on the foundations of islam. We can't have something as illogical as a caliphate, but we can encourage muslim countries to take on a plat form similar to the European Union to encourage a pan-muslim alliance, something that our enemies fear the most, hence they keep us divided amongst ourselves.

[The Persian Shah]

Quote

Absolutely nothing. An islamic state can only be run by an infallible being, and until the occultation ends there will be no islamic state

Of course, and in the mean time everyone else is supposed to just sit around and do absolutely nothing ? All the verses that were revealed for mankind, regarding how to punish criminals etc, we just throw away ? Or brush them aside & ignore them till the Imam [AJTF] arrives ?

Khomeini: "The Qur'an contains more commandments on governance than any other subject".

There are only two ways to go about it: You either have a government or you don't.

Since it is evidently clear that the second view is completely ludicrous and requires no further elaboration, we accept the first one. A government is a necessity.

Once we acknowledge this, then it should also be obvious that we - as Muslims - should try to form it on the Qur'an & Sunnah as much as is possible, hence an Islamic State.

The people who make such silly remarks have been living in kafferstan for too long, and have absorbed their ideals as well. In fact, I noticed koro contradicts himself: First he states an Islamic State is an impossibility, then he states that the government should be "based on the foundations of islam" - forgetting that this is the defintion of an Islamic State.

And as for other remarks such as "A [true] islamic state can only be run by an infallible being", then that means they are advocating a complete no government policy. Because, as aforementioned, there are only two possible options: Either government or no government. If government is not possible, then no government it is. If you try to make a government however, then why would you hold back on trying to make it as Islamic as possible ? Why would you try to make it "un-Islamic" on purpose ? Do you not consider the rulings of the Qur'an as just enough, so that you would rather tend to kafir principles ? The absurdity of this view also quickly becomes very clear.

One of the reasons people make this claim, is because they consider humans falliable, and as long as they are so, then they are not fit to rule. And for this I suggest you read up on Mutazalite theology (and it's refutation), who made a similar argument ("X is falliable => X should be avoided"), but with X being the role of 'aql in tafseer (i.e. they said that the intellect is vulnerable to making a mistake, so we should not use it at all).

It should also be said however, there exists a third view too (a variant of the aforementioned one). Some people have stated that: "We should make a government, but hold back on some things - the important/permament/significant matters, such as sentencing someone to a certain punishment, and save that for the Imam Mahdi [AJTF] (i.e. a liberalist view)". These people are also advocating that we try to hold back on making the government as Islamic as possible (the difference with the last view being that the former stated we should mix it with non-Islamic principles, and the latter states we should cut down as much as possible to avoid making any mistakes). Anyhow, this is easily refuted too: If we were to ignore such commandments, such as how to deal with thieves and save such rulings for the Imam [AJTF] to implement, then why has the Qur'an outlined them for us ? If they were only for the Imam [AJTF] to implement, then why is it in the "book for all mankind" as opposed to him just knowing what to do with them (the theives) ?

Quote

Take a look at the disaster that is Iran - the country I have never visited and know nothing about (other than from US news media agencies that is)

Quote

that has birthed an entire generation of agnostics, atheists and irreligious people who hate islam and blame it for what their mullahs are putting them through.

Typical lies, without any proof. Do you really not feel stupid for making such claims over and over again, whilst continuing to fail to provide any proof ? Not even one statistic ? How many Iranians in Iran have you interviewed ? Yes, I mean not the exiles in Canada who consider Khomeini "a psychopath"..

Quote

democratic

Iran has presidential elections.

Quote

pluralistic

Iran does recognise all ethnic minorities, and grants them full freedom to practice their religion to the max. (Note the difference between valid religious minorities and cults though).

Quote

based on the foundations of islam.

Iran is based on the foundations of Islam.

[koroigetsuga]

The Persian Shah, on Jun 18 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

Of course, and in the mean time everyone else is supposed to just sit around and do absolutely nothing ? All the verses that were revealed for mankind, regarding how to punish criminals etc, we just throw away ? Or brush them aside & ignore them till the Imam [AJTF] arrives ?

And exactly how well has that worked so far in the muslim world? Pakistan, Saudi, Qatar....how are all the muslim countries fairing with their various interpretations of sharia

No one is saying you have to ignore any verses. Were you capable of comprehending anything that challenges your unchanging world-view, you would understand that

Quote

There are only two ways to go about it: You either have a government or you don't.

Last time I checked, I never advocated anarchy so that pretty much demolishes your two-dimensional analogy

Quote

The people who make such silly remarks have been living in kafferstan for too long, and have absorbed their ideals as well. In fact, I noticed koro contradicts himself: First he states an Islamic State is an impossibility, then he states that the government should be "based on the foundations of islam" - forgetting that this is the defintion of an Islamic State.

Do I contradict myself or are you just too blind to read the totality of my statements. Clearly it is the latter

Btw don't you live in Britain. If Iran is so great what are you doing in a western country and simultaneously bashing it by calling it kafferiston   truly your hypocrisy knows no bounds

Quote

And as for other remarks such as "A [true] islamic state can only be run by an infallible being", then that means they are advocating a complete no government policy. Because, as aforementioned, there are only two possible options: Either government or no government. If government is not possible, then no government it is. If you try to make a government however, then why would you hold back on trying to make it as Islamic as possible ? Why would you try to make it "un-Islamic" on purpose ? Do you not consider the rulings of the Qur'an as just enough, so that you would rather tend to kafir principles ? The absurdity of this view also quickly becomes very clear.

Once again no one is advocating anarchy. This either "you have a government or you don't" is as dumb as the rest of the dribble you type because only you could think of reducing our options to such mediocre scales

Quote

One of the reasons people make this claim, is because they consider humans falliable, and as long as they are so, then they are not fit to rule. And for this I suggest you read up on Mutazalite theology (and it's refutation), who made a similar argument ("X is falliable => X should be avoided"), but with X being the role of 'aql in tafseer (i.e. they said that the intellect is vulnerable to making a mistake, so we should not use it at all).

democracy counters human fallibility. absolute rule need only go to an infallible. Hence I advocate democracy.

Quote

Typical lies, without any proof. Do you really not feel stupid for making such claims over and over again, whilst continuing to fail to provide any proof ? Not even one statistic ? How many Iranians in Iran have you interviewed ? Yes, I mean not the exiles in Canada who consider Khomeini "a psychopath"..

So wait. Are you now making the claim that if I was to garner the opinions of Iranians in Iran (which I have anyway) then they would all support the mullah regime?

^^The answer to this I just have to hear  

Quote

Iran is based on the foundations of Islam.

A very lucid statement. Not every marja agrees with how Iran is handling things

I'm certain Iran is indeed based on islam, but what kind? Even Saudi is based on islam; and by that we know its the wahabi kind.

such general statements don't help make your case

The Persian Shah, on Jun 18 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

Iran does recognise all ethnic minorities, and grants them full freedom to practice their religion to the max. (Note the difference between valid religious minorities and cults though).

since you enjoy quoting wikipedia so much, here's something for you:

The persecution of Bahá'ís has been common throughout Iranian history. In the 1950s, under the regime of the Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi, Bahá'ís and their holy places were attacked with tacit state approval.[11][15] Since the Iranian revolution, more than 200 Bahá'ís have been executed or killed, hundreds more have been imprisoned, and tens of thousands have been deprived of jobs, pensions, businesses, and educational opportunities. All national Bahá'í administrative structures have been banned by the government, and holy places, shrines and cemeteries have been confiscated, vandalized, or destroyed [2].[11][9]

Even more recently the situation of Bahá'ís has worsened and the United Nations Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights has stated on March 20, 2006, after revealing a confidential letter from Command Headquarters of the Armed Forced to identify Bahá'ís and to monitor their activities, that "The Special Rapporteur is concerned that this latest development indicates that the situation with regard to religious minorities in Iran is, in fact, deteriorating." [16][17]

Similarly Christian minorities, particularly those formed largely from converts describe continuing harassment and occasionally persecution.[5] Several members and church workers, most prominently Reverend Hussein Soodmand of Mashad and Rev Mehdi Dibaj were formally convicted of apostasy. Reverend Soodmand was executed by hanging. Many more ministers and leaders have been murdered under unclear circumstances (Bishop Haik Hovsepian, Rev Mehdi Dibaj, Rev Ghorban Tourani et al) (see also Christians in Iran)

Bahá'ís, or Christian converts from an Islamic background are considered heretics, enrollment in public university programs or work in government agencies or judiciary is not permitted, but can be achieved by wrongly identifying oneself or not declaring one's religion.[11][18] As practicing Bahá'ís do not generally lie about their faith as a matter of religious principle, some sources state that many Bahá'ís are therefore generally prevented from such participation.[19] Some Bahá'í sources claim that since the early 1990s the government, through an "government circular" allegedly issued by the Supreme Revolutionary Council and signed by Khamenei, has allegedly organized methods to debilitate the Bahá'í community and block its development using more silent methods, while avoiding the most excessive types of persecutions.[9].

http://en.wikipedia....orities_in_Iran

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

koroigetsuga, on Jun 13 2008, 12:36 AM, said:

Absolutely nothing. An islamic state can only be run by an infallible being, and until the occultation ends there will be no islamic state

koroigetsuga, on Jun 13 2008, 12:36 AM, said:

But we can create democratic, pluralistic and tolerant countries based on the foundations of islam.

A country 'based on the foundations of Islam' sounds very much like an Islamic State to me, something which you said in the same post cannot be created. You sound very confused.

[A follower]

Is there anything in the Islamic literature which forbids fallible men from establishing an Islamic State?

[waiting]

A follower, on Jun 21 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

Is there anything in the Islamic literature which forbids fallible men from establishing an Islamic State?

We would have to define "Islamic state" to be able to answer that question.

[A follower]

waiting, on Jun 21 2008, 10:06 AM, said:

We would have to define "Islamic state" to be able to answer that question.

True. How many different interpretations of Islamic State exist?

From what I remember reading Shaheed Sadr wanted to establish an Islamic State but his thoughts on WF differed from that of Imam Khomeini, so that is in itself a statement that many different concepts of Islamic State exist. Also I believe Sayed Mohammad Shirazi had his view on Islamic State too which he mentions in his book about Islamic Government.

Edited by A follower, 21 June 2008 - 09:18 AM.

[waiting]

Quote

True. How many different interpretations of Islamic State exist?

A very interesting book I recommend if you are interested in Political Theories in Contemporary Shi'i Jurisprudence is The theories of Governance in Shi'i jurisprudence by Dr. Mohsen Kadivar. The book is academic, professional and does not carry any bias, but only explains the development of political theories up until today (~year 2000). He has outlined the following main interpretations:

    A. THEORIES OF STATE BASED ON DIRECT DIVINE LEGITIMACY

1. APPOINTED VELAYATEH FAQIH WITHIN RELIGIOUS REGULATIONS AND THE SECULAR MONARCHY OF COMPETENT MOSLEMS, IE CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY (ALAMEH MAJLESSI, MIRZA QOMI, SEYED KASHFI, SHEIKH FAZLOLAH NOORI, SHEIKH ABDOLKARIM HAERI YAZDI, AND AYATOLLAH ARAKI).

2. APPOINTED AND GENERAL VELAYET FOR ALL FAQIHS (MOLA AHMAD NARAGHI, SAHEB JAVAHER, AYATOLLAH BOROOJERDI, AYATOLLAH GOLPYGANI, ETC).

    3.  APPOINTED VELAYAT FOR THE COUNCIL OF GRAND AYATOLLAHS (AYATOLLAH SEYED MOHAMMED SHIRAZI).

    4.  APPOINTED AND ABSOLUTE VELAYATEH FAQIH (IMAM KHOMEINI).

    B. THEORIES OF STATE BASED ON DIVINE-DEMOCRATIC LEGITIMACY

    5.  CONSTITUTIONAL STATE THROUGH THE PERMISSION AND SUPERVISION OF FAQIHS (ALAMEH MIRZAYEH NAYINI).

    6.  PEOPLE’S CALIPHATE THROUGH THE SUPERVISION OF GRAND AYATOLLAH (AYATOLLAH SEYED MOHAMMED BAGHER SADR).

    7.  ELECTED BINDING VELAYATEH FIQH (AYATOLLAH MONTAZERI).

    8.  ELECTED ISLAMIC STATE (SHEIKH MOHAMMED JAVAD MOGHANIYEH AND SHEIKH MOHAMMED-MEHDI SHAMSEDIN).

    9.  JOINT OWNERSHIP PROXY (DR MEHDI HAYERI YAZDI).


http://www.kadivar.c...8...AL=1&DT=dtv

Notice that these are people who believe in some kind of religious governance; there is a group of scholars - who have been in the majority historically but probably minority at present - who don't believe in "islamic" (i.e. ruling in the name of God) states during the period of Occultation.

[A follower]

waiting, on Jun 21 2008, 09:29 AM, said:

A very interesting book I recommend if you are interested in Political Theories in Contemporary Shi'i Jurisprudence is The theories of Governance in Shi'i jurisprudence by Dr. Mohsen Kadivar.

Is it avaliable in English? If so can you provide a link please either to read or buy?

[waiting]

A follower, on Jun 21 2008, 02:33 PM, said:

Is it avaliable in English? If so can you provide a link please either to read or buy?

The URL I posted above states that it was translated into English and Arabic, and that the Publisher is "Nashre Ney". I only managed to get contact details on the publisher http://www.ketabname..._...;chlang=en. Perhaps you could call them (number is on that page) and ask? Otherwise, I don't know. The Persian edition is available on that site.

[2anna]

before we agree on an islamic state................... we should agree on islam and that wont happen becaue nobody follows the quran, they follow the interpertaions of so called scholars and hadeeth and as long as they are doing that they will never agree. i personally dont believe we need an islamic state we need ppl to start using common sense and put away this pride of theres aside.................we have enough islamic states,but what is so islamic about them. god says the GOOD shall inherit the earth not muslims but the good in other words its those who have love for god regardless of there religion will one day inherit the whole of the earth. it has already begun but it will take time to grow

[Shiasister_*]

2anna, on Jun 21 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

before we agree on an islamic state................... we should agree on islam and that wont happen becaue nobody follows the quran, they follow the interpertaions of so called scholars and hadeeth and as long as they are doing that they will never agree. i personally dont believe we need an islamic state we need ppl to start using common sense and put away this pride of theres aside.................we have enough islamic states,but what is so islamic about them. god says the GOOD shall inherit the earth not muslims but the good in other words its those who have love for god regardless of there religion will one day inherit the whole of the earth. it has already begun but it will take time to grow

Salam 3alykom,

I totally agree with you 2anna. We have islamic States, lets say they call themselfs so. But there totally not. Look at Saudi. A , and there king . And there friends with AMerica too. But the good one's are the poor there, or lets say the people who never get the chance to say something.
It will never happen i think .But inshallah. But with everyday go buy, people will get Kufar more.
Inshallah when Imam Mahdi(AZ).

ws

[seyedmusawi]

Salaam allaikum,

I've always found this topic fascinating and incredibly simple. I think sometimes people make things more complex than they really are. At a very basic level an Islamic Government is a government which uses sharia (gods law) in the society. I personally am not too concerned about how far or how fast it does that; but if the end goal of the government as a whole is the establishment of sharia then thats good.

To answer sister shelias question in my opinion the way to establish an islamic government is to establish its equivalent in yourself, your family, your community, your city, your state, your country etc. First you should strive with all your strength to be the islam you want to be. Someone who has submitted themselves to god in every aspect.

The next step is to establish this in your family. This means you, your husband, children etc. Then your near relations. Attempt to make that microcosm which is your family like the ideal islamic family. A government is really like a family and an islamic one an islamic family.

Then you can move on and do that with your community. Try to make them an ideal islamic community in all aspects.

Some people believe that an islamic government can be established and suddenly people will straighten up and become "good muslims" but this isn't realistic, the change must come from the people themselves.

The best way is for us simply as individuals to influence ourselves, our families, and our communities and to create examples. Naturally bigger things will fall into place inshallah.

[Iman]

Assalam alaykum,

I agree with comments re defining what an Islamic state is (ie putting into practice the islamic perspective of all things social, economic etc) vs a country that has those ideals in theory and is attempting to put them into practice. Two completely different things. Various scholars over time have defined it differently

At the moment I dont think we have any 'pure' Islamic state - inshallah there will be one day

Bro 'a follower' asks a good question: Is there anything in the Islamic literature which forbids fallible men from establishing an Islamic State?

[aimanmirza]

what is islamic state?being governed by islamic sharias and prohibiting what is haram in islam.
according to us imam komeini did what saudi,pakistan could not do.a true islamic governence.
that is the reason western countries hate iran so much.they spread wrong things about iran.had imam komeini excepted being thier pupit,the whole western view about iran would have been different.
being there in the western countries,u all only know what ur media shows you.if u really want to know,go there and see urself.then pass any judgement.

[Ahmed Ismael]

The Persian Shah, on 18 June 2008 - 01:49 PM, said:

Of course, and in the mean time everyone else is supposed to just sit around and do absolutely nothing ? All the verses that were revealed for mankind, regarding how to punish criminals etc, we just throw away ? Or brush them aside & ignore them till the Imam [AJTF] arrives ?

Khomeini: "The Qur'an contains more commandments on governance than any other subject".

Once we acknowledge this, then it should also be obvious that we - as Muslims - should try to form it on the Qur'an & Sunnah as much as is possible, hence an Islamic State.

Iran is based on the foundations of Islam.

and the United States wishes to limit government based on the Quran

[hasanhh]

  I do not agree with anything written so far !


Rather than delinated a myriad of objections to the above posts I'll make a simple outline:

Sharia: This come first. But over 1400 years and ijtihad, it has gotten quite convoluted. So ONLY the basic, "agreed  
. upon"  elements are the "must haves"
.
. Also, sharia does not have most things a modern state needs in public administration. Rhetorically, where are
. the hadiths for parking tickets, food and drug regulations or airline safety ?
.    AND: Sharia cannot be altered. By definition, it is the only LAW

. Therefore we then have:

Secular Regulation:  This is what in the West is called "law".

Interim example: So if someone commits a crime, it will be under sharia, SecReg, or in some cases Both. For the last, if our company is dumping poison into the sewer system, my partner objects, I kill him to shut him up, then I am tried under both. Reason: Society needs to determine who else and the specifics of the poisoning, and sharia to determine who else was involved in the murder(if anyone).

So an islamic state needs two judicial systems.  

A stable national gov't must have THREE power centers. Otherwise, when there are two, a contest ensues and one is severely weakened.
By default, under Justice Marshall, the courts became the third center in the USA. In islam courts cannnot be a power center. Courts, even in the USA, are controled by the legislature (id est, sentencing guidelines). In an islamic state, courts are controlled either by Sharia, or by the "discipline of the legislature"(for SecReg courts). And courts by definition are NOT a ruling function. Courts are a "truth seeking" disciplinary body.

The Three Centers of National Power --Islamic:

1) Legislature: What is really the fundamental purpose of a legislature? To promote competent administration of the State. Unlike most of the West, Unicameral is all that is needed [as in Kansas].

2) TWO National Administrators.  Here the powers are divided so they DO NOT conflict (and can be further seperated by the legislature) One has the military, the other the police. One has the diplomatic functions the other the domestic. [It is also possible for a small number to be attached to the legislature].

3)  Other Elected Officials. Despite some islamic countries having large land areas, they are really comparable to any MidWestern state in the USA. So, who else will be elected to limited powers? Attourney General? Sheriffs? Constables? Municipal Police Chiefs? Municipal Courts? Mayors? Council Members? Neighborhood whatever?

So that is a basic outline as I envision it.

[Martyrdom]

Salam
Allah(swt) says in the Quran that he perfected  our religion which is Al-Islam. So Islam is complete if it doesn't provide us with a governing system it would make it incomplete which would go against what Allah(swt) said in the Quran.  Now if we say Islam does give us the perfect  governing system but an infallible has to lead it then the question would pose itself that why would Allah(swt) give us a perfect governing system if theirs going to come a time were we can't use it . Why use a lesser system when the better is their. All the Prophets(AS) and Imams suffered to get this system to us so we can sit at home and tell them its not enough we want one of you to run it. Their not babysitters.    I think the Prophet(S) with the government of Medina and Imam Ali(as) letter to Malik which the UN has praised as one of the best government documents ever written are perfect examples to implement in our time. In the end the Quran is a book of principles not personalities all we have to do is take these principles and implement them. Our we not smart enough to take a principle and implement it do we really need a infallible being for this. Imam Mahdi(ATF) is the Imam of our time now, seeing us striving  hard to implement this perfect governing system that Allah(swt) blessed us with and blessed humanity with  in my OPINION would make him proud.
Allah knows best

[hasanhh]

Martyrdom, on 06 May 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Salam
Allah(swt) says in the Quran that he perfected  our religion which is Al-Islam. So Islam is complete if it doesn't provide us with a governing system it would make it incomplete which would go against what Allah(swt) said in the Quran.  Now if we say Islam does give us the perfect  governing system<---You cannot say this. The Quran reveals that it is only "guidance". but an infallible has to lead it then the question would pose itself that why would Allah(swt) give us a perfect governing system if theirs going to come a time were we can't use it .<---if you cannot have an "infallible", then how can you have a "perfect"? Why use a lesser system when the better is their(there). All the Prophets(AS) and Imams...
to implement in our time.<---this is why we want to form an islamic state! In the end the Quran is a book of principles not personalities all we have to do is take these principles and implement them.Op citio: the Quran is guidance. Our we not smart enough to take a principle and implement it do we really need a infallible being for this.<---Who say we are "dumb"? Imam Mahdi(ATF) is the Imam of our time now, seeing us striving  hard to implement this perfect governing system<---the Imam(as) sees nothing of the kind. Do you? And why?... that Allah(swt) blessed us with and blessed humanity <---the only real "blessing" is to come safely through on the Last Day. Anything in the 'here' is only 'relief' and 'small favor'....with(which)  in my OPINION would make him proud.<---Hojattallah(as) has said nothing of the kind.
Allah knows best<---No objection, here.

Now take this in the best way:  From your rhetoric 'contrivances', I can read you are making the same mistake as most peoples in the World and following in the sin of Western gov'ts: you, apparently, believe in the divinity of gov't .
We can set up any form of social administration, gov't, we want to. It is when we find our 'hope', 'salvation', 'rememberences' in this rather than Allah(swt) that we sin. [For you Jews and Xians, this is because the "divinity of gov't attitude" breaks the 1st & 2nd Commandments. Exodus 20, Deuteronomy 5, Isaiah 43, hinted at at Mark 11:28ff]
Secondly, the Quran is revealed as 'guidance' to Man, not Utopia.

[Martyrdom]

hasanhh, on 09 May 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Now take this in the best way:  From your rhetoric 'contrivances', I can read you are making the same mistake as most peoples in the World and following in the sin of Western gov'ts: you, apparently, believe in the divinity of gov't .
We can set up any form of social administration, gov't, we want to. It is when we find our 'hope', 'salvation', 'rememberences' in this rather than Allah(swt) that we sin. [For you Jews and Xians, this is because the "divinity of gov't attitude" breaks the 1st & 2nd Commandments. Exodus 20, Deuteronomy 5, Isaiah 43, hinted at at Mark 11:28ff]
Secondly, the Quran is revealed as 'guidance' to Man, not Utopia.

Salam
You basically just supported my post without you even knowing it by saying the Quran is a book of guidance. Which I completely agree the difference between me and you is that you are limiting that guidance to what you want it and I'm saying that guidance covers all aspects of life. Can you deny the Quran guides us in all aspects of life? If yes then you just agreed with my original post because one aspect of life is government. If no then your basically saying the Quran fell short and did not provide us with guidance for everything which I will have to disagree with you on that.
You have to look at the whole picture don't focus on one tree of the forest focus on the whole forest.

[ZaqiYumani]

Salam...
Allah does not change the state of a people, until what is in there heats changes.....

that is what it says in the Al Quran...

my brothers and sisters,(in pakistan) as long as you enjoy indian films, and your kids know what song is from what film, (rather then what iyat came and what story is behind it) then Pakistan will become like Afganistan, or worse... If we all did TAKSIYA E NAFS, the world would become heaven.... Its because of our bad actions that we are hated in the world... ok so some of you did not do wrong... but what good did we do ?

[hasanhh]

Please re-read my boldfaced grading above.
As for your second post:

Martyrdom, on 10 May 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Salam
You basically just supported my post without you even knowing it<---No, I did not. Feigning agreement does not deflect my criticisms. by saying the Quran is a book of guidance.<--I did. You did not. Which I completely agree the difference between me and you is that you are limiting that guidance to what you want it<---this is accusitory without pointing out where I supposedly said this. and I'm saying that guidance covers all aspects of life<---Quranically incorrect. The guidance of the Quran has some of this, but its primary focus is to encourage everyone to look forward to the Last Day, as Allah(swt) reveals that He(swt) does.. Can you deny the Quran guides us in all aspects of life?<---just did If yes then you just agreed with my original post because one aspect of life is government.<---Not when you are nomadic, as one example. And I have not made any such compatable 'agreement'. Consider a 'red vehicle'. You cannot agree that a bicycle and a truck are the same even though both are vehicles. If no then your basically saying the Quran fell short and did not provide us with guidance for everything which I will have to disagree with you on that.<---This is HARAM. As the Quran reveals, who does more wrong than add to the words of Allah(swt) and I wrote nothing of the kind. And it is you who injected 'infallable' and 'perfect' into this discussion.
You have to look at the whole picture don't focus on one tree of the forest focus on the whole forest.<---This is an unnecessary pejorative. If you want people to read your "whole picture" then you need to write in a more articulate format.

[Martyrdom]

hasanhh, on 11 May 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

Please re-read my boldfaced grading above.
As for your second post:

Salam
I have read everything you posted brother and taking your criticism into consideration but let me focus on what I believe the big picture is and where I'm deriving my logic from .  The following verse says:
   "Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Quran 5:3)

And that is the one of the  differences between Islam and any other religion in the world . All the religions other then Islam are good but they are incomplete .  Islam is a perfect way of life which focuses on everything that has to do with our life not just the day of judgment.  The problem that we as Muslims might face with an Infallible in ghyba is not that Islam doesn't tell us how to Govern a people because it would be contradictory to the verse I mentioned and we have plenty examples from the Prophet(S) and Imam Ali(as) that the system exists, the problem that we might face it just that we might make mistakes to implement that perfect system that Allah(swt) blessed us with and that's another discussion all together.  

Allah knows Best
Salam

[hameedeh]

Imam Khomeini RA:

In order to assure the unity of the Islamic ummah, in order to liberate the Islamic homeland from occupation and penetration by the imperialists and their puppet governments, it is imperative that we establish a government. In order to attain the unity and freedom of the Muslim peoples, we must overthrow the oppressive governments installed by the imperialists and bring into existence an Islamic government of justice that will be in the service of the people. The formation of such a government will serve to preserve the disciplined unity of the Muslims; just as Fātimah az-Zahrā[83] (‘a) said in her address: “The Imamate exists for the sake of preserving order among the Muslims and replacing their disunity with unity”.

See Section 2 in the book Islamic Government: Governance of the Jurist. http://www.al-islam....amicgovernment/