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Charging For Islam?


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#1 Ehsan

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 02:22 PM

I His Name, the Most High
Salam

It has been a while since I wrote here, I hope all senior members are doing well and that the junior ones are enjoying their stay on ShiaChat.com! :)

Due to the recent marketing of Ammar Nakshawani in Sweden and all controversialities surrounding it I feel compelled to write this.

The key question in my post is whether its morally right to charge for spreading Islam or not?

I know that many here and else where look up to Nakshawani and his likes, so I beg these people to really read what I write and ponder upon it and not let their emotions block their correct understanding.

The confusion which arouse was that Shia youths in Sweden (and West for that matter) lacks strong rolemodels to relate to and hence the it was decided to import a famous international personality, not matter how correctly he has understood or live up to the ideal of the True Islam. This is where Nakshawani came into the picture.

The critic which I and other strong believers put forth, and which we received heavily blows for, was that Nakshawani isn't a suitable rolemodel and should not be allowed to market himself in Sweden.

Persons like Nakshawani, Mahdi Modaressi and others are good speakers (no one denies this), but because of the thirst after rolemodels they have received a rank among the masses far higher then they should have. Especially the youths look up to them and imitate them (many blindly) and the consequences are devastating when they start proclaiming invalid statements outside their area of knowledge, for example in Q&A sessions, during and after the lecture, on the internet etc etc, something they have done numerous times. Their followers adopt their invalid stances and spread it.

The islam which these sort of people advocate I call a a "commercial islam". Maybe they do not charge for all their lectures (and when they do it usually costs the shirt!), but the way the act before, during and after the lectures reveals that it's all about a marketing of ones own name, respect and influence among the masses.

Before people start hanging me for "not having sources" and "backbiting" I'll refer to a passage from Nakshawani's lecture about generosity which he delivered on the night of Ashura 2008. I encourage everyone to listen, it will only take 3 minutes of your valuable time:

Nakshawani >> Muharram 2008 >> Night of Ashura >> Generosity >> Charging for Islam

Subhan Allah, what a slander!! How dare this person tread the chair of Aba Abdillah al-Hossein(A) and spread such rubbish!!
Truly, mark my words, he will have to answer for each word he has uttered on the Day of Judgement and carry the enormous sin of all innocent people he has slandered!
I personally know several people who doesn't charge for lecturing and even spend money themselves, among them being myself personally. According to Mr. Nakshawani I and other speakers who are not driven by money are hypocrites and imposters. Subhan Allah for defending one's own vices by blaming them on others! Subhan Allah!

If money, power and respect is involved that person's Islam automatically gets corrupted. If he speaks he is not entirely free to say what he wish or direct controversial issues, as if he does he might not be invited next time and hence can't collect his material reward.
If two mosques invite him, one having a great audience and paying generously while the other being a small poor community who can't pay he will certainly choose the one which pays the most and has the biggest audience, even though the little mosque might have needed him much more!
When we look at the Prophets(A) and the Imams(A) not once do we see them charging for performing their religious and divine duty.

Of course they gave gifts and money to poets, writes and the like (which Nakshawani mentions in the clip above) but its a heaven and earth's difference from being given a gift and EXPECTING a gift!!

These sort of speakers can very much be likened to movie stars. Movie stars play very good and provoking on the movies but in real life they are ordinary people who often perform disgusting actions which no one accepts, at least not from an Islamic perspective. However since they are good in the limelight they get a huge following and fanclub.

But now we are speaking of something so great and holy as Islam. Something which Imam Hossein(A) sacrificed himself and his entire family for! Do we really want to create an Islamic Hollywood by letting clever speakers with their charisma and sex appeal draw the masses towards a commercial islam?
Or do we want to pull oursleves together, rip apart all worldly veils, build up ourselves and pull our surrounding towards the ideal of the True Islam of Muhammad(S)? An ideal which demands self-sacrifice for victory?

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(Nakshawani interviewed in a report about Hijab in the West. The question is whether he has the right to talk about chastity and decent clothing when he himself obviously doesn't show any chaste clothing during the interview...?)

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(I rest my case. These days it is fashion to have Niqab/Dishdasha in the mosque and unbuttoned shirt outside. Do we let our sisters dress like this? Where is the decency...?)

Only He is, all else is an illusion.

#2 SO SOLID SHIA

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 02:43 PM

salam to my reel ni-ggaz out there,

Ehsan,
Wouldn't it have been far more easier PLUS you would have come to a quicker solution and on top of all that received an answer directly from Ammar Nakshawani? I mean this day an age..everyone has an email address...he's even got a website where you can go onto and ask these questions directly..if you're unsure I can give you his email add or his phone number and you may put everything you said forward to him in person...otherwise this is just another  batty tactic that shiachatters love doing.
What solution would you have received on this chatboard..tell me???  We all know people don't come here to resolve issues, but rather cause friction or slander personalities.......what was the motive behind all this?

If you are genuinely worried about youth in sweden then do somethin about it...YOU be their role model..in fact ask Ammar ..I'm sure you'll get more respect for standing up and saying this to the person yourself.

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Subhan Allah, what a slander!! How dare this person tread the chair of Aba Abdillah al-Hossein(A) and spread such rubbish!!
Truly, mark my words, he will have to answer for each word he has uttered on the Day of Judgement and carry the enormous sin of all innocent people he has slandered!

TELL HIM THAT  MAN!!! Don't bloody tell us......If it was some inacessible person like 50 cent or BRITNEY SPEARS  :blush:  Then by all means say what you want......THESE PEOPLE ARE EASILY ACCESIBLE ESPECIALLY AMMAR..you'll find him anywhere.


Anyways ehsan since you don't charge for majalis I am inviting you to London to come and speak at our local imam-bargah...thanks a lot man you've just saved a lot on our budget!!!!! YA GET ME

Now........BE A GOOD BOY

#3 Steed

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 02:52 PM

It rather seems to me that Br.Ehsan does not really give a toss about whether 'Charging' in a lecture is right or wrong, in my opinion it is quite obvious that he has a personal vendetta against Br.Ammar and has used 'Charging' as an umbrella for his un-needed attack on Ammar.

I feel that if Br.Ehsan really cared about the issue of Charging he would have taken it to Ammar himself and not published it onto a site which has thousands of members.

Br.Ehsan should be ashamed of himself for using Shia Chat as a cause for fitna, and must be really thinking about using his time more usefully.

#4 Aal-e-Imran

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 02:53 PM

(salam)

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#5 Gypsy

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 09:16 PM

(salam)
Bro Ehsan, welcome back. Nice to see you.

I do believe people have a right to demand any amount of payment for their honest work and effort. My opinion is that the people you mentioned in your post are worth the rates they are asking for. If you are not agreeable to their rates/fees then you may need to move to other (cheaper) alternatives.

It’s not fair to complain about what people charges for their fees/consultation. You may see only few hours of speeches or one day of work. But have you seen the amount of time he has spent to prepare for that speech? Have you seen the number of books he read to research that topic? He might have spent his whole adult life in hawza/schools while we were busy making $$$.

Why do people think that we can make money $$$ from our job but our Shia speaker/lecturer/scholars have no right to make money from their talent?

#6 BintAlHoda

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 10:19 PM

(salam)

^ I too am sympathetic to those people who need to charge a (modest and reasonable) fee in order to make a living.

That being said, a true scholar will spread knowledge without regards to cost.  The hadith says, "Everything has a tax, and the tax on knowledge is spreading it."  There are some incredibly brilliant and talented people who will refuse to take money because they do not feel worthy of it, and that is more noble.

However, Brother Ehsan is bringing up a number of disturbing trends within the Shi'a community.  They are not limited to this particular religious lecturer, so he actually didn't need to mention someone by name.  Let me quote the ones I personally find troubling in our community.

I am saying all of this IN GENERAL and not in regard to this particular lecturer.  So please consider what I am saying in principle and not with regard to individuals and personalities.

Before that, I'd like to say that it is possible for someone to contribute to the Shi'a community and also have flaws (perhaps even major flaws).  We do not need to elevate religious speakers to the level of 'ismah.  We should appreciate the good that they do, but not be afraid of being open about their mistakes, particularly if they are assuming a role of community leadership.   The message is what makes them who they are; they are not the ones who are making the message.  This is much healthier for our community.

View PostEhsan, on Mar 18 2008, 12:22 PM, said:

The critic which I and other strong believers put forth, and which we received heavily blows for, was that **** isn't a suitable rolemodel and should not be allowed to market himself in Sweden.

(See how I crossed out his name lol)

The unfortunate fact is, there are some religious lecturers who speak well but are not good role models.  (Don't ask me for names because I won't provide them, but everyone can examine people's lifestyles and judge for themselves)  People who are not concerned with abstaining from the excesses of this world.  People who amass material wealth.  People who do not interact appropriately with non mahrams.

I am not accusing Brother N of this; however, it is a legitimate concern.  If we see some things in a stranger, we condemn them.  But if we see them from someone popular, we emulate them!

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because of the thirst after rolemodels they have received a rank among the masses far higher then they should have.

This cannot be denied.  Because of the lack of people who can speak convincingly in English about religion, a few people have been popularized beyond what is appropriate.  This is dangerous.

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Especially the youths look up to them and imitate them (many blindly) and the consequences are devastating when they start proclaiming invalid statements outside their area of knowledge, for example in Q&A sessions, during and after the lecture, on the internet etc etc, something they have done numerous times. Their followers adopt their invalid stances and spread it.

Again, I am not saying this about Brother N.  However, we tend to have blindness when it comes to speakers who are at the podium, even if they are young.  Some people take everything they say as if it is infallible, whereas it is just a person's understanding.  Wisdom takes time to develop.  It is said that most men don't develop wisdom until the age of 40. :)  So while we should appreciate what younger people have to offer, we have to recognize that their own viewpoints may change as they mature as well.  We should also take things that are said with a "grain of salt", particularly if they are not from a very educated scholar or someone who has had the experience of age.

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for all their lectures (and when they do it usually costs the shirt!), but the way the act before, during and after the lectures reveals that it's all about a marketing of ones own name, respect and influence among the masses.

This is also a problem.  Again, I'm not referring directly to Brother N.  However, some people unfortunately put more effort into marketing their names than the message- to advance their careers instead of the message.  This has happened since the beginning of time and happens in all religions, not just Islam.

However, in our desire to be religious and ally ourselves with those speaking for religion, we need to remember that one of the key points of Islam is humility.  So if we see someone speaking in the name of Islam but not acting humbly, we need to remember that.

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If money, power and respect is involved that person's Islam automatically gets corrupted. If he speaks he is not entirely free to say what he wish or direct controversial issues, as if he does he might not be invited next time and hence can't collect his material reward.

I will not say "automatically" since some people will still take the risk and speak what they know is the truth.  However, I will say, there is a very high probability of it being corrupted.  Shaytan is very slippery, and desire for power and fame are sometimes more powerful than other human desires.  Most ulama know this is a risk of the profession, and true scholars spend a lot of personal effort trying to fight it and will admit it.  So, this is something we also need to keep in mind.

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Do we really want to create an Islamic Hollywood by letting clever speakers with their charisma and sex appeal draw the masses towards a commercial islam?

This is what we were talking about earlier about "pop Shi'ism".  It is a dangerous trend.  The fact is, it does happen, and it is something we should try to rise above as a community.  

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Or do we want to pull oursleves together, rip apart all worldly veils, build up ourselves and pull our surrounding towards the ideal of the True Islam of Muhammad(S)? An ideal which demands self-sacrifice for victory?

Inshallah
Imam Husain (A) replied to a man who said, ‘Sit down so we can debate about religion’ – ‘I am aware of my religion, and my path is clear for me. So, if you are ignorant about your religion then go and seek it. What do I have to do with disputation? Indeed the devil tempts a person and calls him, saying, ‘Debate with people regarding their religion so that they do not think of you as incapable and ignorant.’ - Bihar al-Anwar

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#7 mnk

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 10:26 PM

View PostZareen, on Mar 18 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

(salam)
Bro Ehsan, welcome back. Nice to see you.

I do believe people have a right to demand any amount of payment for their honest work and effort. My opinion is that the people you mentioned in your post are worth the rates they are asking for. If you are not agreeable to their rates/fees then you may need to move to other (cheaper) alternatives.

It’s not fair to complain about what people charges for their fees/consultation. You may see only few hours of speeches or one day of work. But have you seen the amount of time he has spent to prepare for that speech? Have you seen the number of books he read to research that topic? He might have spent his whole adult life in hawza/schools while we were busy making $$$.

Why do people think that we can make money $$$ from our job but our Shia speaker/lecturer/scholars have no right to make money from their talent?

I agree. As a lecturer myself, it takes HOURS, sometimes even DAYS for just ONE lecture. Taking time off work (those that do work), it is not as easy as a listener may think! I wish to complete the next 15-20 years in Hawza, studying full time. Charging a fee allows for flexibility in earning the 'daily bread' despite the fact that it is not a year-long contribution.

In addition, those that may not charge are ones who HAVE jobs. I know that for a fact (unless you, Br. Ehsan, do not). Hawzas also offer a stipulation for students! The Qur'an affirms that a community must also 'send one of them to learn, get educated and come back and teach', and while it does not apply directly to monetary relation, where else does the community acquire the fund? A 'public treasury', which was evident in those days, but in these days they are in the form of donations.

So, to attack one publicly in this manner is equally 'haraam', because if many are not aware of someone's shortcomings (and this is not to confirm that Sheikh Ammar has shortcomings in relation to THIS matter), it becomes haraam on the announcer. So I would be careful in spreading such misconceptions, unless it is a general public outcry in relation to the gheebah itself. To speak of it generally, as Sister BintalHoda points out, would have been more appropriate.

May Allah (swt) guide us.

#8 Bahadur Ali

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 10:32 PM

(salam)

I am writing here for two reasons. The first to make a point about the payment of religious personnel and the second is to the defend  brothers and a friends.


The payment of religious personnel and scholars in particular

Does anyone here realize what it takes to study Islam in an intense way? Day and night? Mastering the different required subjects? All of this whilst your friends are making money? Having families?
What hypocrisy!

As a PhD student with little money I had to work on the side to able to feed myself and this has greatly affected my doctoral work. It is our duty as Shi'as to support our scholars financially and give them the salary they deserve. It's not "charging for Islam", it is rewarding for quality and dedication.
We are not Catholic priests who don't have families to feed!

A brother and a friend

I know Sayyid Ammar and Sayyid Modarresi. Although they're younger than me they has taught me a lot through their knowledge and their akhlaq. If money were their prime concern I can tell you that they would be doing something else in life other than studying Islam.
You refuse to pay and support the hard efforts of scholars I suggest you take a look at the Sikh community. They pay half literate villagers to preach in their temples in the West, pay them peanuts and give them horrible accommodation. You want to know the result?
Preachers who can't utter a sentence in English, without any scholarly knowledge, unable to communicate to a youth now dedicated to materialism, superstition, fornication and alcoholism.
If you wish to see our communities end up like these mushriks be my guest!


I have been through what they and others go through: they well deserve to be well paid for the wonderful job they do and for putting up with personal [Edited Out]y attacks like your post on a regular basis.


kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah
<div align="center">You poured the wine into the cup and made me drink
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Otherwise what beauty is there in drinking the wine of love alone?
Ya Ali Haqq! Ya Ali Hu!
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#9 Ehsan

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 10:49 PM

Salam

I have read all your valuable inputs, give me a few hours and I will insha Allah address all of them with the utmost care if I and the thread are alive until then (so please Team-SC, don't close it down!).
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#10 Aal-e-Imran

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:03 PM

(salam)

A while ago, after experiencing a similiar trend I had made this thread: Scholars Fixing Rates For Majaalis. Perhaps it would be of interest to some.

It's narrated in Usool-e-Kafi by Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) that don't let everyone come on the mimber. The speaker on the mimber should not have the love of money in his heart. The lover of money will not give you religion but instead leave you without religion. The speaker should not be making the message of Hussain (as) a tajarat and become tajir-e-khoon-e-Hussain (as). Most centres give a hadiya to speakers and pay them a decent amount regardless, alongside that when speakers are invited there are people who take care of their residence, tickets, transportation, food etc. Charging flat rates like $1200 per hour, or like in Pakistan where some charge in millions, is it honestly reasonable? Doctors and chartered accountants don't even make that much.

The Holy Prophet has said: Allah sent wahy, revelation to David (a.s.) and told him, "Do not set between Me and yourself a learned person who loves the worldly gains lest he will bar you from the way to My love. Such people are bandits who ambush my servants who want Me. The least that I will do to such bandits is to take away from them the sweetness of their private conversations and prayers with Me."

Imam Ali (a.s.), would often say, 'O seekers of knowledge, (note that) a scholar has three signs: Knowledge, forbearance and quietness. An orator has three signs: He quarrels those higher then him through disobedience. He does injustice to those lower than him in position through domination and he becomes a supporter of the unjust.'

~ Usool-e-Kafi

PS - Not referring to anyone specifc.

#11 Ehsan

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 04:43 AM

In His Name, the Most High
Salam

Before I address comments directed to me personally I would like to start this post with putting forth a couple of arguments why its wrong to charge money for Islam (NOTE: There is a HUGE difference between the listeners to out of kind will give gifts and money to the speakers and the speakers to DEMAND money! Please do not confuse things!):

1) We must realize that every action has an intention. If my intention solemnly is to serve God I will get paied by Hm on Judgment Day. If I ask for something from someone other then Him it reveals that my deed was not done entirely for Him.

Similitude: If I do my friend a favour and fix his computer I can expect a favour in return from him, but I can not expect a favour from his landlord. But IF I expect something from his landlord as well it means I must have done something for the latter as well.
In the same way if my intention is to only do God a favour I can expect a favour in return from Him, but I CAN NOT expect anything in return from His creation, unless I've done something for them!
So if my lecture is for the sake of God I don't have the right to demand anything from people, but if my lecture was partly for people's sake and hence I expect a payment from them then it shows that in my deed I took partners with God and this is a form of Shirk in my intention.

Hadith: Imam Jafar Sadiq(A) says that God said, "I am the best partner. I do not accept any deed done where a partner has been taken by My side. I only accept those deeds which are sincerely done for Me."

(Mishkat al-Anwar fi Ghurar al-Akhbar, ch. 2, hadith 15)

2) If a person earns his living through Islam he isn't entirely free to say what he wants and what might be right since he always has in his backbone that if he says something controversial which might anger the arrangers and hence cause him not to be invited again or not get paid.
He is dependent upon the lectures to survive and will do what it takes to not loose his earning.

3) A person who charges can easily become corrupted and driven by money. If two mosques invite him, one having a great audience and paying generously while the other being a small poor community who can't pay he will certainly choose the one which pays the most and has the biggest audience, even though the little mosque might have needed him much more!

4) Would a speaker be affected with pride and arrogance (and indeed this does happen!!) it is much harder for him to stop lecturing and deal with his spiritual disease if he charges for his lectures (especially if he earns his living on it!).

5) If one talks about Islam one strives to bring the people closer to God. The way there is through the footsteps of the Prophets(A) and the Imams(A). NONE of our 124'000 Prophets(S) or 12 Imams(A) ever took payment from the people to carry out their religious duty and spread Islam. The Prophet(S) with his exaltedness was a shepherd, Imam Ali(A) with his greatness, despite being the caliph of the entire Islamic kingdom, earned his living by being a gardener. In Nahj al-Balagha Imam Ali(A) narrates that Prophet Dawood(A), even though being one of the prophets with the greatest kingdom, still earned his living as a shoemaker!!

This is the way our role models took. then how can a speaker lead the masses towards God when he doesn't follow their footsteps in the lecture itself?!

The tradition of charging for Islam doesn't have its origin in the school of Ahl al-Bayt(A) but rather in the school of Muawiyah whom we all know started praying his pseudo scholars in their Friday speeches.

The list could be made much longer but I think you have got my point. So let med go on and address some of the personal comments I received for this:

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TELL HIM THAT MAN!!! Don't bloody tell us......If it was some inacessible person like 50 cent or BRITNEY SPEARS blush.gif Then by all means say what you want......THESE PEOPLE ARE EASILY ACCESIBLE ESPECIALLY AMMAR..you'll find him anywhere.

Any person who dares speaking in public (including myself) should be prepared to recieve critique. If Nakshawani takes the liberty to speak on the pulpit of Aba Abdillah al-Hossein(A) and when doing so spreads invalid statements, and even slandering (as seen in the clip referred in my original post) then he and everyone else should know that such a person will meet opposition.

This has nothing to do with backbiting because I am not speaking of his personal bad attributes, I am discussing misdeeds he shows openly and even doesn't consider wrong!

Imam Khomeieni(RA) in "Islamic Government" even encourages the youths to take of the turban of the pseudo clergymen!
Now I don't do this but by all do means I will not sit silent when its a public matter.

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It rather seems to me that Br.Ehsan does not really give a toss about whether 'Charging' in a lecture is right or wrong, in my opinion it is quite obvious that he has a personal vendetta against Br.Ammar and has used 'Charging' as an umbrella for his un-needed attack on Ammar.

If what you say is right then may God forgive me but if what you say is wrong then may God forgive you.

He knows what is my heart and believe me, I don't write this out of personal vendetta or pleasure. Do you honestly think I find pleasure in sacrificing hours of my personal spare time discussing on a bulletin board with thousand of strangers who don't even know who I am? If the situation wasn't such that it demanded from me to act, since most sit silent or don't see the destruction being done.

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I feel that if Br.Ehsan really cared about the issue of Charging he would have taken it to Ammar himself and not published it onto a site which has thousands of members.

What makes you think we haven't discussed this issue with Nakshawani himself? If he was unaware of it do you think he would bring it up in his lecture on the night of Ashura in front of thousands of people? And calling people like myself for stingy because we believe in a non-commercial Islam?

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Br.Ehsan should be ashamed of himself for using Shia Chat as a cause for fitna, and must be really thinking about using his time more usefully.

If you wholeheartly believe me to be a hypocrite then please do not call me you're brother. If you have doubts where I am a hypocrite or not then keep the statement to yourself so you don't get regretful on the day when many faces will be darkened with shame. Please feel my pain when writing this and know that my motives are none but divine!

Thanks for the advice though, the advice of using ones time valuably is a very good advice. Jazak Allahu Khayr!

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It’s not fair to complain about what people charges for their fees/consultation. You may see only few hours of speeches or one day of work. But have you seen the amount of time he has spent to prepare for that speech? Have you seen the number of books he read to research that topic? He might have spent his whole adult life in hawza/schools while we were busy making $$$.

Why do people think that we can make money $$$ from our job but our Shia speaker/lecturer/scholars have no right to make money from their talent?

I've addressed a couple of arguments for this in the top of my post, please read them if you haven't.

I do am aware of how much time and energy it takes to prepare an own lecture (if one doesn't copy it from elsewhere) but one can make his living from other activities, like writing books, taking a teacher job in university/hawza or even taking a spare job (if one dedicates his life to Islam then he doesn't need to live in the best condition anyway).
There are many righteous good scholars for example in Qom who don't charge for their lectures. I even know of some who pay half their ticket to Western countries just to spread Islam!

One of the Urefa in Qom flew from Iran to a European country (I won't mention which one due to some reasons) on his own accord with his own money to help ONE needing soul and then flew back.

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So, to attack one publicly in this manner is equally 'haraam', because if many are not aware of someone's shortcomings (and this is not to confirm that Sheikh Ammar has shortcomings in relation to THIS matter), it becomes haraam on the announcer. So I would be careful in spreading such misconceptions, unless it is a general public outcry in relation to the gheebah itself. To speak of it generally, as Sister BintalHoda points out, would have been more appropriate.

As said one who speaks public ally and does so in a wrong matter or spread invalid statements then he will meet opposition from people aware of the destruction made. I have only spoken of matters related to Nakshawani which he shows public ally and defends.

The reason I brought it up here on ShiaChat was that the masses most know who they are looking up to and listening to and be aware that such a speaker in his current state isn't a suitable speaker. He should go into a spiritual retreat, pull himself together and then make a comeback.
When these sort of speakers are invited, payed and the masses go to their lectures they actually encourage them to wander on in their errors and this is wrong. Even worse is if they are not aware of their errors then they will adopt them and spread them on, and this is the situation we currently are in!!

May God awaken mankind and open his inner eyes to the dangers in the deceitful World and the traps of the clever Deciever!

Salam
Ehsan
Only He is, all else is an illusion.

#12 janali

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 08:20 PM

(salam)


I have followed Sayed Nakshawani for years; (please address sayeds by their title)

a)when he started speaking, he did not charge any money at all as his career was directed to law
b)he then decided to study Islamic studies and finished his MA
c)when we invited him to our jamaat in 2004, he said give me whatever you can and i will be happy
d)when we invited him in 2008; he had a charge because he said a contract agreed before hand is suitable for all concerned and the president of jamaat believed this was correct because he had given to speakers before and was worried that the amount given may be less or more than what expected
e) for 8years, at a centre called haraka,sayed ammar spoke every friday for FREE BETWEEN 2000-2008
f)his fame is not his doing- on facebook there is a fanclub for him of 980 ppl, each one because of how his lectures changed them,
g)ask any of sayed ammars friends he grew up with in london if he has ever charged them for a majlis in their house, he will always do it for his friends for free even though sometimes their majalis begin at 11pm.


IT SHOCKS ME THAT SHIACHAT BOARD ALLOW SUCH TALK AND PERSONS TO CONTINUE WITH ACCUSATIONS BY NAME-
YOU ARE ENCOURAGING WHAT HAS DESTORYED THE SHIA- THE PUTTING DOWN OF ANYBODY WHO TRIES TO SERVE ISLAM

Edited by janali, 19 March 2008 - 08:33 PM.


#13 BintAlHoda

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 09:01 PM

Quote

IT SHOCKS ME THAT SHIACHAT BOARD ALLOW SUCH TALK AND PERSONS TO CONTINUE WITH ACCUSATIONS BY NAME-
YOU ARE ENCOURAGING WHAT HAS DESTORYED THE SHIA- THE PUTTING DOWN OF ANYBODY WHO TRIES TO SERVE ISLAM

The ShiaChat board are not censors.  The brother brought up several community issues which can be discussed.

Anyone who involves themself in public life and has clips of speeches or videos online is subjecting himself or herself to potential criticism.  As I said above, is there any merit in pretending someone is above criticism just because we happen to like him or her?  We are all fallible human beings.

You can't assume that because some criticizes, they are trying to "put down anybody who tries to serve Islam" or has a "personal vendetta".  The brother raised some very valid issues.  (I personally think the issue of charging for speeches was one of the lesser important issues that he said, but I already wrote about that, so I won't repeat myself)  Rather than attacking HIM, we should respond to the issues he raised if we disagree - as you did in your post.
Imam Husain (A) replied to a man who said, ‘Sit down so we can debate about religion’ – ‘I am aware of my religion, and my path is clear for me. So, if you are ignorant about your religion then go and seek it. What do I have to do with disputation? Indeed the devil tempts a person and calls him, saying, ‘Debate with people regarding their religion so that they do not think of you as incapable and ignorant.’ - Bihar al-Anwar

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#14 Dhulfiqar

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 09:28 PM

Just recently, my mother got a phone call from a speaker's secretary saying the money that was given to the speaker was not enough, suggesting it was disrespectful to give her so little. The secretary asked for an additional $1000.00. The undertones were that if the additional grand was not given, the speaker would not be coming next year to speak at the Islamic Center.

I was a bit taken back when I heard this. This speaker is a strong supporter of the Revolution and a lover of the Wali Amr, in fact she imitates him so much so, that she does not use her right hand because it was the right hand of Ayatullah Khamenai that is paralyzed. Her secretary dictated an introduction that said the speaker was the adopted daughter of Sayed Nasrullah ® because of her efforts of raising funds for Hezbollah. So it is safe to say that this speaker is not ignorant. But very knowledgeable and a great orator.

People can blame the secretary and say the speaker may have been ignorant of the dealings but seriously how ignorant our speakers' of their middlemen?

I believe once an amount is decided upon, it should not be trumped by using guilt and threats.

Wa Salaam,
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#15 Mubahala

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 02:18 AM

Bismihi T'ala
Salams!

It is sad to see how some of the members on SC have reacted to this which is only allowable critizing and has nothing to do with backbiting as it is not discussing some of the named persons personalities rather the phenomen which he belong to. there is for sure other speachers that fit in into this phenomen.

However what have been said and the reaction to what have been only confirm what the original poster have warned for, some of this people have got so much respect that you are not even allowed to point out some concerns about them. How sad!

Personally I think preachers should firstly educate themselves to something they want to work with and after that give some of their free time to preaching. What is the case with sacrificing in the way of Allah if not with own wealth (pay for own living) if the case is that you charge because of Islam? When our rolemodels didn't charge for their preaching of Islam, why should we as their followers do this? They had families and so on to, so that is not an convincing argument to raise up.

Something tells me that if this statements that are made in the audioclip had been made by someone with lower status quo than the named person - the reaction would have been all the way around. Cause the named person have earned his respect among people, it is harder to accept this fact. But to slander a believer is a serious sin - and I can't see this as anything else than slander in this statements when he is talking about others and making conclusion without fact - I mean to say that those who do not take money does it behind the scenes? Subhan'Allah! What a courage to make such statements! The right of a believer upon another believer is very high and therefore such statements is dangerous, as we have the following hadith:

Quote

“O Ka’ba! How great is your right. By Allah the right of a believer exceeds yours.”
Source: Safinatun Behar Vol. 1 sid. 290

Note that most people that answered did it emotionally, either some who know personally or others that didnt get the message and see it as backbiting. Don't consider this emtionally, see it as to the phenomen and you will see the danger in this.

As for the Youtube videos, how can he speak about modesty and chastity in Islamic veil (the hijab) when his shirt is open like that? More the style of artits... :(

Ya Allah...
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#16 Rawshni

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 08:36 AM

The issue can be very easily resolved, within a generation's span, if more and more Shia seek knowledge and cultivate speaking skills. It is ideal that those who sponsor mejalis and mawaleed speak themselves at their gatherings. The more people become knowledgeable, the less will be the need to allw some people to make a profession of religion.

As long as this does not happen, there is no point cribbing.
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#17 janali

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 09:18 AM

Ehsan

1)lecture is not night of ashura, that was his zakir naik lecture, its night9,

2)he did not say its wrong of ppl not to charge, he said those who expect a gift should not leave it for the person to decide without an agreement., for this will cause differences later as dhulfiqar says. so if i wanted 50$ i can tell the person beforehand to write a contract, so we both leave the lecture happy with agreement. As i say, if its about free lectures, sayed ammar lectures every year for university ahlul bayt societies around the uk, he lectured for my cousin in bradford, leeds and manchester and did not charge them any money even though the gas costs for these were 100 pounds.he lectured at kings and city and did not charge them.when we asked him he said i remember my period at univeristy and its hard so i want to help .he only asks for payments in Main seasons because this is his income for the year.

3)Aba abdul rahman solami taught one of the children of imam hussain to recite the Chapter Fatiha of Quran. Imam Hussain gave him 1000 coins, one thousand robes and a mouthful of pearls. Some ppl considered this too great a reward. However, he said how can this reward compensate for his generous grant. Nothing is enough to compensate for teaching the Holy Quran. (lolovalmarjan)

4)The irony of this whole topic is you have said the controversy of his recent trip to sweden. Please ask the organisers who are a group of Iraqi youths whether their jamaat or president payed him for his lecture.You will find dear brother, he did not charge them for the two lectures..................................................................

JANALI

#18 Ehsan

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 03:53 PM

In His Name, the Most High
Salam

It saddens me greatly that we have fallen into a situation where we, due to lack of righteous role models, are not allowed to even criticize public figures even though they might commit huge errors and mislead the masses.

It reminds me of a Quranic verse where the Christians are condemned for just doing this:

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
(The Holy Quran 9:31)


And:

Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful ? Truly what they have done is evil.
(The Holy Quran 5:63)


Let me start from the beginning:

Quote

Anyways ehsan since you don't charge for majalis I am inviting you to London to come and speak at our local imam-bargah...thanks a lot man you've just saved a lot on our budget!!!!!

Imagine me saying this: "No I'm not free of charge. I take 1'000 USD for a weekend plus traveling costs for me and my friends."
You and everyone else would say, "Who on earth do he think he is charging like that?!!"
Now let us say my name is a famous Ehsan XXX or Ehsan YYY, immediately the situation will change and you will make your last efforts to afford my visit. This is how the current situation is. Why is this?!

Which brings me to this comment:

Quote

I have followed Sayed Nakshawani for years; (please address sayeds by their title)

Islam is against any form of title or extra respect based upon color, race and nationality. The Holy Quran says:

O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.
(The Holy Quran 43:13)


I would kiss the dust which a righteous servant of God has walked on, but I will not address people with titles which they have not earned through hard working and striving.

Again the Holy Quran says:

Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.
(The Holy Quran 61:4)


The believers are but one rank as a firm and compact wall. None is in front of the other except in deeds (not heritage, color, race or whatever).

Let me repeat my previous question: How come if my name is Seyyed Ehsan XXX I can charge huge amounts (far larger then a doctor or engineer earns!!) but if my name is only Ehsan ibn Unknown people will frown upon me and think I'm arrogant asking for money to lecture?

Subhan Allah what injustice!

A hadith says that once the Prophet(S) entered the mosque while the companions where sitting inside. As soon as they saw him they stood up out of respect. The Prophet(S) became angry with them, told them to sit down and commanded them to treat him the same as they treat others. Please ponder upon the level of justice Islam has brought.

Is this the ideal of Imam Ali(A)? Imam Ali(A) who became angry with a judge in court for addressing him "Abul Hassan" while addressing his opposite, a jew, by his first name?

I must say ahsanti sister BintAlHoda, you can truly feel the concern I have in my words. It saddens me that the situation has become so sensitive that if you critisize a public person you as a rightful critisizer are put down and frowned upon.

The funny part is that while this thread was locked one in the ShiaChat Team PM:ed me and said that he/she agrees with what I say but since I'm very open and direct in my writing it could cause problems. This made me think, Subhan Allah - people are afraid to critisize famous personalities since it would cause rage and fury among the masses. So be it. Imam Khomeieni(RA) in "Islamic Government" even encourages the youths to strip the pseudo scholars of their turbans. We should learn from great companions like Abu Dhar al-Ghaffari(RA) or Hijr ibn Uday(RA) on how to never be afraid to tell the truth, no matter how direct or provoking it might be.

It amazes me that people go on insult scholars like Ayatollah Seestani(HA), Ayatollah Fadhlullah(HA) or Imam Khamenei(HA) and the masses remain relatively indifferent to this, but if I critisize for example Nakshawani for his invalid statements and slandering those who do not agree with him in his commercial Islam hell is broken loose.

Some comment that Nakshawani or other speakers also delivers lectures for free. To be frank I don't care if they do this out of free will, to build up a name, to gain respect, to market themselves, earn some reward or whatever - to me it is sufficient that they charge ONCE to know that they haven't really understood the ideal of Imam Ali(A). Hence they are not suitable for preaching to people about a concept (Islam) which they haven't understood correctly.

Look at all my posts, from beginning to the end, I bring forth Quranic Verses and Prophetic words to back up my logical statements - but as respons I only get personal thinking and likening. Sorry but this doesn't hold. We have nothing of our own, all we have comes from the Quran and its peer - the Ahl al-Bayt(A).

Traditions like this:

Quote

Aba abdul rahman solami taught one of the children of imam hussain to recite the Chapter Fatiha of Quran. Imam Hussain gave him 1000 coins, one thousand robes and a mouthful of pearls. Some ppl considered this too great a reward. However, he said how can this reward compensate for his generous grant. Nothing is enough to compensate for teaching the Holy Quran. (lolovalmarjan)

Doesn't hold since they are twisted in their meaning. The teacher never demanded money from Imam Hossein(A), Imam Hossein(A) gave the money as a gift out of free will! I'm sure if the a person came and said to Imam Hossein(A), "I'll preach for your kids for 100'000 dirhams/lecture" they would be given a slap in the face and sent away.

Now that you mention Imam Hossein(A) let me quote a part of his famous sermon at Mina:

Quote

O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of you, so that even powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you favours they deny themselves . When the people do not receive their due. they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty of kings and princes.

Have you not earned all this respect and prestige because of the people's hopes that you will implement God's laws, even though in most instances you have failed to do so?

You have taken lightly your duties as leaders. You have neglected the rights of the oppressed and the lowly, but have assiduously pursued what you regard as your personal rights. You have not spent your money or risked your life for the sake of the One Who gave you life, nor have you fought against any group or tribe for the sake of God. Nevertheless, you desire - and regard it as your due - that He should grant you paradise, the company of the prophet, and security from chastisement in the hereafter. You have such expectations of God, I fear that the full weight of His wrath descend upon you, for although it is by His might and glory that you have achieved high rank, you show no respect to those who truly know god, while you yourselves enjoy respect among God's creatures on His account.

Read the entire sermon along with the excellent commentary of Imam Khomeieni(RA) here:
The Sermon of Mina Al- 'Imam al Husayn's Everlasting Message to Religious Leaders

Please read and understand. Whatever I've said isn't taken from my own pocket. I ground each statement I've written in this thread in divine words. Please bring forth valid Islamic sources for proving that it is encouraged or even morally legitimate to charge for Islam and I'll reconsider.

Until then I'll end this post with yet another luminous verse from the Holy Quran:

O my people! I ask of you no reward for this (Message). My reward is from none but Him who created me: Will ye not then understand?
(The Holy Quran 11:51)


Salam
Ehsan

Edited by Ehsan, 20 March 2008 - 04:22 PM.

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#19 iraqi_shia

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 04:35 PM

I agree with your intentions Ehsan, but I think on a technical level you are wrong.

I looked at the youtube videos that you linked to, there is nothing wrong, he has a shirt with the top button undone. That is not haram, or even makrooh to my knowledge, so there is no need to critize it.

As for the speakers charging vast amounts, its a very tough subject. We all beleive that scholars, who enrich our souls and warm the hearts should be rewarded, including financially so that they may have a happy home life.

I am reminded of a tradition of Buhulul. Some people were building a mosque, so he went to them, what are you doing? , they replied "building a mosque", he then asked, "what for", the builders were suprised by this obvious question, but they answered proudly "for Allah".

During the night, he went and put a banner on the mosque that said " Built by Bahulul".

The builders saw this and were so angry they attacked him and beat him up.

He shouted to them, "Did I trick Allah? does Allah think I built the mosque? who were you really building it for then?"


I think its important the our speakers speak for the benefit of humanity and not for their bank balance.

In order to achieve this, I propose that a General Speaker Council should be established ( like the GMC - general medical council) , that will suggest fair rates of pay and behavour. Speakers who want to speak at venues should be a member of this group ( which should be free/minimal charge).

For example we have only heard of how the speakers are apparently trying to get more money, how many times have the venue underpaid or not paid the speakers at all, I beleive that is just as unfair.

After all, they are providing a valuable service.
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#20 KSIMC

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 04:52 PM

salam alaikum,

Short and sweet:-

Brother Ehsan, you have not said much constructively against Ammar e.t.c. other than you are against charging for lectures and you believe him to be a commercial lecturer - well that is up to him, he has the right to charge and to earn a living. If your boiler was broken and I was a gas man, I wouldn't come and fix your boiler for free - unless I was stupid. People have to live and earn a living and this is how he does it, because he probably has a mortgage to pay and people to feed e.t.c.

I think that the problem does not lie with Ammar and you shouldn't fixate on him, the problem is that youths don't have role models, they lack proper knowledge which centres that cost millions and Madrassahs are not providing for them, they can't think for themselves, they are bought up in secular environments - where the mindset is entirely secular and westernised. The problem is multi-dimensional and you shouldn't blame one person for it but the whole establishment, including the parents. Yes he may have made some mistakes in lecturing but as people have pointed out he is not perfect.

wsalams

#21 SO SOLID SHIA

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 06:25 PM

At the end of the day brothers and sisters...

it's only words....let's look at what really counts. I mean you can sit down and chat crap as much as you want an nothin will happen, but what are we actually doin for the community.
I can vouch that Nakshawani has helped hundreds of youngstas keep off the streets by simply networking, bringin them closer with each other an helpin them learn how to pray, read Quran even sort out their behaviour.
THATS REAL ...the fact that someone can help a youngster whose off the rails turn to his Religion says a lot about the person who helped him do it ya get me...

I don't see the need for all this hype talk...I mean how many of you so called speakers have been outside nightclubs at 2am in the dirtiest ghetto parts of your area and set up a table to give DAWAH!!!!!!!!!! AND AT THAT WITH PEOPLE COMING OUT OF CLUBS....FROM CRACKHEADS TO GANGSTAS TO PEOPLE LOOKIN FOR FIGHTS ALL STANDIN THERE LISTENIN to one guy talk about WHY WE'RE HERE..............I mean how many of you would have the rahssclaart to do that??? Nah exactly...instead you'd rather come and defend Islam online...do it in the open innit stop talkin...and do some affirmative action brovas an sistas!!!

I can vouch that I've seen that with my own eyes people crying an  these are people who don't know ANYTHIN about islam let alone Imam Hussain (a.s) ....now that's gotta be commendable...fake people don't have that effect on anyone...
so unless and until anyone can go out and do that then you can be known as a hardback...otherwise I hope you are striving to better yourselves FIRST and then are doing your best to spread the word of Imam Hussain (a.s).

DON'T WORRY ABOUT OTHERS........IF THEIR SHIRTS ARE OPEN AND THIS IS HARMING ISLAM...THEN Allah (S.W.T) WILL EXPOSE THEM....ISLAM IS, HAS AND WILL ALWAYS BE KEPT SAFE BY GOD....HE (SWT) EXPOSES THE FAKES....DON'T WORRY ABOUT THAT...BUT ITS OUR JOB TO GUIDE OTHERS AND BRING THEM IN...........YA GET ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#22 janali

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 06:58 PM

(salam)

``I personally know several people who doesn't charge for lecturing and even spend money themselves, among them being myself personally''

Can you please give me a link to your majalis or classes, my jamaat would like to invite you for mahe-muharam or ramdhan or chehlum(arbaeen). They are very happy there is a speaker who does not charge for his lectures.Ramdhan this year if you can come for 30 nights, two majalis a day and a question and answer session in the weekends. Our president is ready to send the invite. He will pay for your flight but no more as he completely agrees ppl should give majalis for free.I hope you do not mind organising your own accomodation ehsan as there are many hotels in our area.

Can you give a site for your lectures or even classes?

#23 Mubahala

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 07:32 AM

Bismihi T'ala
Salams!

What I see here is that brother Ehsan comes with sources from the holy Quran and ahadith while the others only use their own ijtihad to make certain conclusions. We all now which kind of people used this tactics after the demise of the Holy Prophet(S) and what catastrophe it led to. Why are adopting their sunnah?

If someone wants to make a point, please make as the brother said, point out in ahadith or Quranic verses where it says that is ok to charge for propagating the cause of Islam. As regarding personal views, we have no need of them in Islam as the personal views of muslims from the demise of the Prophet(S) until our time are one of the main obstacle and problems for the religion of Islam.

After all, wasn't Muawiyah ibn Abu Sufyan who invented this sunnah of paying preachers? Let us all pray that Allah distances ourselves from Sunnah and habits that doesn't have their root in Islam and that have not been presented for us by the Holy Prophet(S) and Ahlul Bayt(A).

Quote

If your boiler was broken and I was a gas man, I wouldn't come and fix your boiler for free - unless I was stupid. People have to live and earn a living and this is how he does it, because he probably has a mortgage to pay and people to feed e.t.c.

This is not an argument as we have already explained that there is a difference between real profession and propagating Islam on minbars. The first one is for living, the second one is for striving in Allahs way and serving his religion. Two different topics.

Please try to understand. The problem is not with the personality of Nakshawani but in the phenomen that he represent today in our Islamic world.
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#24 shabbir.hassanally

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 07:34 AM

In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

While I don't want to repeat what my respected Brother Ehsan has already said, there are a couple of clarifications that are required regarding this subject, and the adaab (etiquette) of the teacher that should be mentioned.

While it is understood and indeed accepted that a teacher (speaker, zakir, alem, etc) should be recompensed in terms of what his/her expenses are in delivering a lecture, one must first reflect on what a valid recompense is, and indeed more importantly, we must understand who we are providing a service to, that the burden of providing the appropriate recompense should fall upon that person or entity in who's employ the respected teacher (speaker, zakir, alem, etc) is.

One of the things we were taught on entering the Islamic Seminary - and this is universal, be it in Qum, Mashhad, Najaf, Karbala, Damascus, Lukhnow, etc.  Every student, every Islamic student who wishes to learn in order that they might teach the true Islam of Muhammad(S) to the people, immediately comes into the employ of Imam al-Hujjah(AJ), and ultimately in the employ of Allah.

Every action that we perform is (or rather should be) purely for Allah, and we should have full trust in Allah that He will ensure that our sustenance is maintained.  After all one of His most beautiful names is ar-Raziq (the Provider of Sustenance).  

During an Islamic Student's tenure at the Islamic Seminary, they are given a minimal stipend, known as "Shahriyyeh" (Salary), this is a small - almost token - amount, that will suffice for basic requirements such as food and accommodation, the necessities for ones existence.  Why is this the case?  Surely the Hawza (Islamic Seminaries) could provide a larger amount and ensure that the student has somewhat more comfortable existence (assuming the student has no other means).  But not, there is a reasoning behind the amount of the Shahriyyeh.

One of the most important reasons for the size of the Shahriyyeh is that it creates a detachment from the Dunya for the student who has to live purely on the Shahriyyah amount.  It creates a focus for the student on avoiding those things which are vain and indeed cost much - such as random leisure activities and such - but instead the student is then encouraged to spend time in the various libraries, in the masajed in the madares and so on, studying, reading, reflecting and in worship to Allah.

If a student requires a larger income, they can take on employment, indeed there are a number of students that I know in Qum al-Muqaddasah who translate books for various publishing houses, others proof read, others take short sabaticals and work in factories and offices performing regular tasks, in my own personal case, I used to work part-time for a software house in Qum developing software.

But the question that begs to be asked is why does the Hawza simply not provide a larger stipend to the student?  The answer is very simple.  Because the Hawza doesn't want to turn students into free loaders, it doesn't want to spoil (for want of a better word), and it doesn't want the students to become lazy and dependent on the hawza for handouts.

Yes, definitely it is hard work, tiring, sometimes one has to stay up studying to the light of a flickering candle because using electricity would cost more money in the electricity bill, it means wrapping up in a warm blanket on a cold night rather than switching on the heater because the heating will cost more than can be afforded, definately this is a hard life, but at the end of the day, anyone with illusions that becoming a hawza student is a ticket to become a free loader, is a ticket to an easy life should quickly forget and remove this misconception, it is a hard life.

When we become hawza students we become those people who's priority and attachment is to Allah, and not this world, this world is a tedius and burdensome place, a place that is nothing more than a test and a trial, and the true talabeh realises this and focuses on that which is important, and that is learning and understanding.

This hardship is given as a gift to the Hawza student, and it is an honour to go through this trial, because it moulds one as a person, and gives them an appreciation of the situation of those who's situation on this earth is dire, the mustadhafeen, those who are unfortunate - be it in terms of material or spirtual requirements, and it gives us the ability to focus on imparting the true lessons of the true Islam of Muhammad(S).

When someone has tasted hardship, and earned their studies through diligence, hardwork and genuine striving, their understanding of that which they studied, their application of that which they were taught, their zeal of in imparting that which they learned is different to that person who has had it handed to them on a silver platter - this example runs true be it for Islam or anything else.

In the Hawza we have a famous saying in Farsi:

"Be doon-e-ranj, ganj payda nemishe"
(Without hard work, the treasure cannot be obtained)

What is this treasure?  Is it a material treasure?  Is it the proverbial "pot of gold"?  Off course not, the treasure is the knowledge of the true Islam of Muhammad(S), the treasure is that which is the inheritance of the Ambiya(A) and the Awliya(A), the treasure is the complete understanding of the concept of reliance on and obedience to Allah, the Mighty the Wise.

When someone has this type of understanding, that person doesn't need to sit down and "negotiate" a contract with an establishment or a person regarding what it will "cost" to teach the people about the true Islam, that person has a fire within themselves, a burning desire to teach to impart knowledge to share that which they have learned.

Amir al-Mu'mineen, Ali ibn Abi Talib(A) has said in the short sayings of Nahj ul-Balagha:

If you cannot get things as much as you desire than be contented with what you have.

This teaches us something very important, that we should be content, we should be happy with that which Allah has ordained for us, and we should only strive to please Allah, after all, how else can we have change in our situation except through reliance on Allah and following the line of the Ambiya(A) and the Awliya(A) of Allah?!

There is a story that comes to mind, there was once an Islamic Student in Najaf, his financial situation was difficult, he was constantly stressed on account of it, and was sad, he was also having trouble with his studies and was unable to comprehend most of that which he was learning and so was unable to progress.

One night, he was more sad, he was near the haram (shrine) of our Master, Amir al-Mu'mineen(A), when a very handsome man came to him, the man greeted him, and asked him what the problem was, why was he looking said.  To this the young man replied that his financial situation was very difficult and it was effecting him in every aspect of his life.

The handsome (noorani - full of light) man asked him how this was the case, when he had the most valuable thing with him, the young student was confused, and questioned the handsome man.  To this the handsome man asked him, my friend do you know Ziyarat Ashura?  The young man immediately replied and made a gesture towards the book in his hand.  The noorani man told him, that he should recite Ziyarat Ashura on a Thursday Night (i.e. the night before Friday), and he would see his problems fade away, but that he should do it for the sake of Allah and no other, he should ensure that his niyyah was completely pure.

The young student, decided, that since it was a Thursday night, he would enter the Haram of Imam Ali(A) and recite Ziyarat Ashura, and then he would go home.  As he looked up to reply the noorani man, he saw that there was no-one there.

He diligently went into the Haram of Imam Ali(A), gave salutations to the Prince of the Faithful and began reciting Ziyarat Ashura.  He completed the Ziyarah and went home.

After a short time, of repeating this activity, he found that his situation was improving.  He found work with some local business people in baking bread, and it helped improve his financial situation, which ultimately relieved his day-to-day stress and ultimately helped him with concentrating on his lessons.

He went on to become a great Alem and his name was Shaykh Mahmoud Alemi(RA).

To the true mu'min, there is a reliance on Allah, and the facilities that Allah has given to us.

Indeed, I remember, while in Qum, I used to sometimes get very excited at random hours, when I read something which I found new and amazing, I would immediately tell me room-mates, I would write a letter to friends, I would call my asateed (teachers) and tell them, regardless of what time it was, and they would do the same.

Knowledge, learning, understanding are such things that when one learns something new, they are immediately moved to share it with others, to discuss it, to impart it, because they know that in sharing it with others, they will learn more about it.

For example, let us examine a situation where someone is learning to speak a new language, say Farsi (Persian), they are studying their books, they learn a new phrase, the next chance they get with an Iranian friend of theirs or a friend who also knows Farsi, they will try and use that phrase in a sentence.  This will bring joy to both friends, and indeed the first friend will perhaps learn the reply to the phrase that he has spoken.

For example; in Farsi; a polite way of saying "Thank You" to someone is:

"Dast-e-shoma dard na kone"
(May your hand never hurt)

It is a very beautiful phrase and a nice dua for someone who has done something nice for them, the reply for this phrase is equally as nice:

"Sar-e-shoma dard na kone"
(May your head never hurt)

Subhan Allah.  How beautiful.  Imagine if a student of Farsi, learned the first phrase, and then went to a friend and used it (i.e. shared it), when his friend replied with the second phrase, that would give him another phrase in Farsi, and his knowledge in that aspect would be doubled.

He would have doubled his knowledge and it would have cost him nothing.  Subhan Allah.

It is for this reason and countless like it, that the Master of the Righteous, the Lion of Allah, the Father of al-Hasan(A) and al-Husayn(A), the Husband of Zahra(A) and the Prince of the Faithful, Ali ibn Abi Talib(A) once said to his son, Hasan al-Mujtaba(A):

The greatest wealth is Wisdom

Elsewhere our Master, Ali ibn Abi Talib(A) has said:

There is no greater wealth than wisdom, no greater poverty than ignorance;

Wisdom is defined as the understanding and application of knowledge that one has, taking that which is theoretical and bringing it into the real world as a solution, this can only be accomplished through reflection and effort, but truely it is the greatest wealth, because it will guard you and protect you.  Subhan Allah, the greatest wealth is defined as wisdom and the greatest poverty as ignorance.  Subhan Allah.  How amazing and how sublime is our Islam, yet we choose to taint it and confuse it with that which is temporary and vain.

It is also very important to understand something here.  When someone goes to learn in the Hawza, they are NOT charged to learn, they are in fact paid a stipend (as discussed), they are given the facilities of the Islamic Seminary and are encouraged to learn and make as much use of these facilities as possible.  This is very important.

Now-a-days there are requirements (loose requirements from what I understand), that someone who wishes to learn in the Hawza should have some academic discipline (i.e. should have some sort of degree type education from a university), but this is not always required, and it's primary reason is to ensure that said individual has the ability and discipline to study and learn and is not merely coming there to get a "free holiday" or because they have failed at everything else.

This is very important.  When I was in the Hawza, and I had teachers privately, not one of my teachers asked for any money when teaching me (or any of their other students), and indeed I don't know of any reputable teachers who actually ask for money.  In fact, when one of my teachers was offered money by a student, he became most upset, and said:

"Do you wish to deprive me of my recompense with my Master in the hereafter?"

The teacher I'm speaking of wasn't a rich man, he was a hard-working and dutiful believer, he worked as an engineer (mechanical and automotive), and studied and taught after Asr prayers until after Isha prayers, every day except Friday, which after Juma' he spent with his family in Mashhad al-Haraam

This is not something strange in the Hawzaat of Islam.

Now onto the issue at hand.

What I have been talking about is an Islam that has a complete reliance on Allah, that sees knowledge and wisdom as treasures that are the property of the believers and should be given to the believers as gifts without any pre-conditions.

The Islam I'm talking about is that which accepts that teaching others is part of our responsibility within the Furu' of our Ideology - Amr bil Ma'rouf (Enjoining the Good) and Nahi Anil Munkar (Forbidding the Evil).

How is one to know what is good and what is evil if one hasn't been taught it and years of sinning and social conditioning have confused and dulled the mirror of the heart?  Subhan Allah, to charge for giving to the people, to place preconditions on polishing the hearts of the believers is to take a dagger and drive it into the heart of Aba Abdillah al-Husayn(A).  How?  Very simply, Aba Abdillah(A) gave everything to teach us Islam, he didn't want anything from us, indeed he even paid the people of Bani Asad for the land wherein he, his family and esteemed companions were to be massacred and subsequently burried.  He paid for this from business transactions that he had made previously, from money he had saved previously, from things like this.

If Aba Abdillah(A), nay if Saani-ye-Zahra(A), Zaynab-e-Kubra(A) the one who propogated the message of Ashura, the daughter of Ali(A), didn't ask for a reward for telling the people about Ashura, for teaching the people of the massacre of innocents, for narrating the story of the battle of Hizbullah against Hizbushaytaan, how then can we, who are not worth the soil under the feet of the dog that follows the lowest of the servants of Zaynab(A) have the audacity to charge for following her line?  Subhan Allah!

How can we dare to charge to give people the message for which the blood of the innocent Ali Asghar(A) was spilled?  Nay this is not something a lover of Husayn(A) can do.

Indeed, the policy of taking money for an act within Islam, is the policy of those who murdered and decapitated Aba Abdillah(A).  Did Habib ibn Madhahir(A) ask for money from Aba Abdillah(A) when he came rushing to Karbala to assist?  Did Mukhtar ath-Thaqafi(A) ask for money when he faught and avenged (until the final vengence by our master Aba Saleh al-Hujjah(AJ)) the blood of those murdered on that barren plain of Karbala?  No off course not, these people, these great personalities did what they did for the love of Allah, for the love of the true Lovers of Allah.

But where does this mentality of "Charging for Islam" come from?  

There is a famous story of the Onions of Acre, that the Marketing Machine of the Arabs - Abu Huraira the Hadith Factory of Muawiyyah ibn Abi Sufyan(L).  A friend of his had ventured to Acre - a city in what is currently occupied Palestine, and had procured a large quanity of onions from there.  On route, the onions had begun to rot, and by the time the merchant got to Madinah they had become smelly and people in the marketplace were not purchasing them.

The merchant was a friend of Abu Huraira, and asked him to help, Abu Huraira told him he could solve his problem and get the onions sold for an excellent price, they came to an arrangement between themselves, where Abu Huraira would "Market" the onions and "advertise" them to the people, and his friend would sell them, they would then divide the profits between themselves.

Abu Huraira went to the Masjed, gathered the people for a lesson, telling them he had an important lesson for them and said:

"O people, I heard from the Messenger of God and he said, whoever eats the Onions of Acre, then heaven is compulsory for him."

The people asked: "Oh teacher, where can we find the Onions of Acre?"

Abu Huraira replied:
"You can buy fresh Onions of Acre from such and such person in the market"

The people asked:
"O Abu Huraira, how much should we buy?"

To which the Marketing Machine of the Arabs replied:
"Oh people, the Prophet has said, that whoever buys one packet (approximately 6 onions), then he will have one house in heaven.  whoever buys two packets, then he will have two houses in heaven, whoever buys three packets, three houses ... "

The people then ran out and emptied this person's stall of his onions, and indeed a small riot broke out when he had run out since others wanted to get the onions but the supply had run out.

Naturally as the supply was diminishing, the price went up, and people used all manner of methods to purchase these rotting, smelly onions simply because they were taught to.

After the day had finished, Abu Huraira and his friend sat down and split the spoils.

Abu Huraira had been contracted by his friend to give a lecture for a particular fee - like people have said - Islamically a contract has to be signed and sealed in advance very true - and on successful completion of the task Abu Huraira was given his fee.

However, this gives an important lesson to those who reflect.

It should however be noted that the true believer has already made a contract with Allah, as per Quran:

Quote

íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ åóáú ÃóÏõáøõßõãú Úóáóìٰ ÊöÌóÇÑóÉò ÊõäÌöíßõã ãøöäú ÚóÐóÇÈò Ãóáöíãò [٦١-١٠]
Believers! Shall I direct you to a commerce that will save you from a painful punishment?
﴿١٠﴾
ÊõÄúãöäõæäó ÈöÇááøóåö æóÑóÓõæáöåö æóÊõÌóÇåöÏõæäó Ýöí ÓóÈöíáö Çááøóåö ÈöÃóãúæóÇáößõãú æóÃóäÝõÓößõãú Ðٰáößõãú ÎóíúÑñ áøóßõãú Åöä ßõäÊõãú ÊóÚúáóãõæäó [٦١-١١]
You shall believe in Allah and His Messenger and struggle for His Way with your possessions and yourselves. That is better for you, if you but knew.
﴿١١﴾
íóÛúÝöÑú áóßõãú ÐõäõæÈóßõãú æóíõÏúÎöáúßõãú ÌóäøóÇÊò ÊóÌúÑöí ãöä ÊóÍúÊöåóÇ ÇáúÃóäúåóÇÑõ æóãóÓóÇßöäó ØóíøöÈóÉð Ýöí ÌóäøóÇÊö ÚóÏúäò Ðٰáößó ÇáúÝóæúÒõ ÇáúÚóÙöíãõ [٦١-١٢]
He will forgive you your sins and admit you to Gardens underneath which rivers flow, and to fine dwelling places in the Gardens of Eden. That is the mighty triumph.
﴿١٢﴾
æóÃõÎúÑóìٰ ÊõÍöÈøõæäóåóÇ äóÕúÑñ ãøöäó Çááøóåö æóÝóÊúÍñ ÞóÑöíÈñ æóÈóÔøöÑö ÇáúãõÄúãöäöíäó [٦١-١٣]
And other things that you love, victory from Allah and an opening that is near. (O Prophet Muhammad) give glad tidings to the believers.
(Quran, Surah as-Saf, Ayaat 10-13)

Allah has already cut a deal with us.  We must first perform our part of the deal, and then we can expect a reward from him.  If however, we push for a reward in this world, then truely we should be concerned as to whether we've not broken the deal terms or not.  For indeed if we've already been "rewarded" in this temporary world, then what is to stop Allah from saying to us on that day when the souls are sorted:

"Oh my servant, tell me what did you do purely for me, that I may reward you for it"

We will then reply:

"Oh Allah, we did such and such good things"

To which Allah will reply (may Allah save us from such a rejection):

"Oh fulan son of fulan, it is true that you did such and such good things, but for these things you have had your recompense and your intention was to please those on the earth that they would reward you more, tell me what did you do purely for me that I might reward you"

To which the sons of Adam will fall silent, as they are dragged by the forlocks into the pits of the fire, who's fuel is men and stones.

What can be worse than Allah's rejection??

In Dua Kumayl we say:

"... My God, my Lord and my Master, though I may patiently bear Thy punishments, how can I endure separation from Thee? ..."

Subhan Allah.

When we write to our Maraj'e Taqleed for a ruling on a subject, do we get charged by our Maraj'e?  Off course not, they are duty bound having made a pact with Allah - as we all have; but they are cognizant of their responsibility; were as we have allowed rust to accumulate on our hearts and are therefore blind to our responsibility.

Finally, in conclusion; what I am saying is not that the teachers (zakereen, ulema, etc), should be left without any means and never given anything, but that they should not demand and choose to lecture at places based on the size of the fee.  Definitely expenses should be covered.

When posting a letter to our Maraj'e - we cover the postage (as an example), their accommodation should be covered while visiting you, because that is an honour for the one who has done the inviting; this is part of the Islamic ethical teachings (akhlaaq and adaab) in matters of calling, receiving and being guests; this is normal and expected from a human point of view.

Normally, if one is invited to a place to teach the people, then it is not strange for the transportation and accommodation to be paid, and indeed it is strange if these facilities are not provided.

If you have a person from whom you will benefit, and you want to invite them to your town to learn something, then it is only fair that you arrange for them to come to your town, and since they will be a stranger in your town (or even if they are not a stranger, out of common courtesy on your part), you should be with them for the duration they stay.

Is it not well known that Imam Ali(A) was once walking a path and met a fellow traveller who wasn't a Muslim, but that Imam Ali(A) out of respect for the companion walked with him and even when the road forked and Imam Ali(A)'s road was to the right and the other man's road was to the left, Imam Ali(A) walked with him for a distance and then returned to his own road?  SO much so, that the companion was so moved he accepted Islam immediately and became from the lovers and followers of Ali(A)!!

Subhan Allah.

Now, we who claim to be lovers of Ali(A), how can we act in a manner that is along the lines of the enemies of Ali(A)?  How can we act as those who laughed and made merry when the news was given to them that Ali(A) has been killed?  Subhan Allah.

Indeed in reality, it is true to say that the value of a lesson in the true Islam can never be recompensed in this world by any human being, but that it's recompense is only with Allah, therefore, wouldn't it be more prudent for a lecturer to ask for a reward befitting the task he's doing?  What is money in regard to cultivating the love of Allah and the love of those who Allah Loves and who Love Allah?  Money is infact an insult to such a lesson.  The best fee should be one that begs Allah to shower His infinite blessings on Muhammad(S) and Aal-i-Muhammad(A), and to Hasten their Relief (i.e. the Return of our Master, al-Hujjat ibn al-Hasan(AJ)).  Wouldn't that be the most appropriate and acceptable of fees?

If we only understood the true value of sending salutations and blessings on Muhammad and Aal-i-Muhammad(S) we would truely be amongst the victors.  Subhan Allah!

My dear and respected brothers and sisters, we need to wake up, we need to understand and reflect, come closer to Quran, and think more deeply, we need to avoid the commercialisation of Islam and other elements that come and tear at the very soul of Islam, do we not have in the Quran:

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æóáóä ÊóÑúÖóìٰ Úóäßó ÇáúíóåõæÏõ æóáóÇ ÇáäøóÕóÇÑóìٰ ÍóÊøóìٰ ÊóÊøóÈöÚó ãöáøóÊóåõãú Þõáú Åöäøó åõÏóì Çááøóåö åõæó ÇáúåõÏóìٰ æóáóÆöäö ÇÊøóÈóÚúÊó ÃóåúæóÇÁóåõã ÈóÚúÏó ÇáøóÐöí ÌóÇÁóßó ãöäó ÇáúÚöáúãö ãóÇ áóßó ãöäó Çááøóåö ãöä æóáöíøò æóáóÇ äóÕöíÑò [٢-١٢٠]
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
﴿١٢٠﴾
(Quran, Surah al-Baqarah, Ayah 120)

The enemies of Islam, wish to change our Islam into the secular, commercialized and impotent religion that they have, they have betrayed the true message of Musa(A) and Isa(A) and now wish to use all the means that they have at their disposal to confuse the Muslims.

We should also realise that Shaytaan has vowed to mislead humanity until the end of time, and his most powerful attacks are against those in the public eye, against those who are teachers, against those who attempt to work in Allah's way, but who can fall swiftly in the eyes of Allah, from a single moment of arrogance and self-love.

Don't you remember that it was Shaytaan who was called by Allah as haughty and arrogant and from those who reject Faith:

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ÅöáøóÇ ÅöÈúáöíÓó ÇÓúÊóßúÈóÑó æóßóÇäó ãöäó ÇáúßóÇÝöÑöíäó [٣٨-٧٤]
Not so Iblis: he was haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith.
﴿٧٤﴾
ÞóÇáó íóÇ ÅöÈúáöíÓõ ãóÇ ãóäóÚóßó Ãóä ÊóÓúÌõÏó áöãóÇ ÎóáóÞúÊõ ÈöíóÏóíøó ÃóÓúÊóßúÈóÑúÊó Ãóãú ßõäÊó ãöäó ÇáúÚóÇáöíäó [٣٨-٧٥]
(Allah) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
﴿٧٥﴾
ÞóÇáó ÃóäóÇ ÎóíúÑñ ãøöäúåõ ÎóáóÞúÊóäöí ãöä äøóÇÑò æóÎóáóÞúÊóåõ ãöä Øöíäò [٣٨-٧٦]
(Iblis) said: "I am better than he: thou createdst me from fire, and him thou createdst from clay."
﴿٧٦﴾
ÞóÇáó ÝóÇÎúÑõÌú ãöäúåóÇ ÝóÅöäøóßó ÑóÌöíãñ [٣٨-٧٧]
(Allah) said: "Then get thee out from here: for thou art rejected, accursed.
(Quran, Surah Saad, Ayaat 74-77)

Subhan Allah!

Anyway, I have taken up a lot of my respected brothers and sisters time, but it is important to realise these concepts.  I am not speaking out against any one in particular, I do not need to, those who need to be spoken out against are covered within Quran and those who are innocent are covered within Quran, and Allah is fully aware of that which we conceal and that which we make manifest, and indeed for Allah is the Ultimate Knowlege of All Things.

All praise belongs to Allah, the Lord Sustainer of the Universes,

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir
---
Shabbir R Hassanally
Blog :: http://shabbir.hassanally.net

#25 BintAlHoda

BintAlHoda

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 10:51 AM

^ That was very beautiful, mashallah.

I feel that many of our youth in the West do not understand the age-old concept of how our ulama throughout history have lived.  Many of them lived with only the bare necessities in order to pursue their scholarship.  Indeed, it was an honor of the profession to live without worldly excesses.  

As Brother Shabbir mentioned, part of the value of going through the hawzah system is not only to gain factual knowledge but also to experience this lifestyle of living minimally and being unconcerned about worldly gain and how it gives you a different relationship with Allah (swt), especially compared to the materialistic lifestyle in the West.

However, I do feel that, in the West, it is not necessary to maintain the tradition of the ulama being deprived.  I believe our scholars who work as full time employees of the community should be offered enough money to live on at an average level, and that someone who offers a service can expect a respectable fee.

Unfortunately, many of our youth are seeing an example of some (I emphasize SOME and not ALL) people who work for Islam or run Islamic centers who enjoy an above-average lifestyle.  They might have better cars, better houses, better clothes than the average person in their community, and they are collecting their salary as a religious person and not through other work.

This is problematic for two reasons.  One is that it is against Islamic teachings.  We look at Ayatullah Seestani, for instance.  Someone tried to give some children in his family backpacks a few years ago and he refused because he said he did not want to live above any of his people.  One of the main teachings of Islam is not to take more from this world is necessary (granted, "necessary" means different things to different people in different situations), and it is noble and honorable for someone who represents Islam to abstain from wordly excess.  (I don't really consider a backpack excessive, but this is an example of the ideals we follow and which some of our ulama still live)

In the West, I believe the more pertienent reason is that an 'aalim or lecturer who collects a salary is NOT making his own money.  It is not the same thing as making money through business or trade or offering other services such as haircutting.  YOU ARE LIVING OFF OF THE MONEY OF THE PEOPLE.  If a center invites you, they will be paying you through DONATIONS or SPONSORSHIP.  Perhaps khums as well.

This is a tremendous responsibility.  I have on occasion taken paid work from Islamic centers.  I take that as a tremendous responsibility because I know it's not just some company that's paying me; I am working and being paid by the hands of people who drop dollar bills into a donation box and write checks to keep the center alive.  

In situations like this, it is definitely important for a speaker to balance his own personal needs in terms of salary and also the fact that the money is coming from the people.  While I will say again that I definitely am sympathetic to the fact that some people do depend on money from lecturing, I am sure most people would hesitate to take an amount that would create hardship on the community.

This is in general.  Regarding Nakshawani, I recall once in one of his speeches (I forget where) that he said something like Muslims should not feel like it is bad to get an expensive car.  This is what I mean by "encouraging a flashy lifestyle".  Muslims should not feel the need to get a broken, beat-up, useless, old car.  Purchasing something that is useful and moderate is appropriate, and everyone can decide that on their own.  However, we really don't need to have a Lexus or a BMW or some other car that has no value other than being a status symbol (unless there is some practical reason why we are driving it and investing the tens of thousands of dollars into it) especially while there are people who cannot afford food throughout the world.  This is the trend that I disagree with.  

However, as Brother SoSolid said, many people have found Nakshawani's lectures useful.  I'm not criticizing him 100%, just that idea is something I criticize.

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As for the Youtube videos, how can he speak about modesty and chastity in Islamic veil (the hijab) when his shirt is open like that? More the style of artits...

Regarding the video incidentally, now that I watched it, I feel it was more inappropriate to wear trousers that tight which show the shape of everything.  It does not conform to Islamic modesty in my opinion.  And anyone who would like to pass on that message to him is welcome to because it is advice :)  (And I am not going to demonize him for it, I am willing to give him excuses like maybe they were the only trousers that he had washed and ironed at that time and he was in a rush)

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The issue can be very easily resolved, within a generation's span, if more and more Shia seek knowledge and cultivate speaking skills. It is ideal that those who sponsor mejalis and mawaleed speak themselves at their gatherings. The more people become knowledgeable, the less will be the need to allw some people to make a profession of religion.

I think the main issue with a lot of centers here is that they don't know who to invite for English speakers.  There are actually a number of talented people within our community, but many of them remain relatively unknown outside of their own immediate areas.  If a community wants someone new, it is good to ask around and do some research and I think they might be surprised at some of the gems they will find.
Imam Husain (A) replied to a man who said, ‘Sit down so we can debate about religion’ – ‘I am aware of my religion, and my path is clear for me. So, if you are ignorant about your religion then go and seek it. What do I have to do with disputation? Indeed the devil tempts a person and calls him, saying, ‘Debate with people regarding their religion so that they do not think of you as incapable and ignorant.’ - Bihar al-Anwar

You left us alone in this forsaken land
Dignity usurped, drenched in Karbala's sand - "Riderless"

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