106 replies to this topic

[Hassan2jz]

dingdong, on Mar 12 2008, 06:39 AM, said:

^Bro think of yourself in the place of Hazrat Hur. He could I either choose yazids (lanhum) side and have an easy and prosperous LIFE or choose Imam Hussain 's side and have a deadend in his life but a very good aakhirah. Who do you choose today? Dajjal who tells you to do haram? Or Imam Mahdi , our Imam who is alive and amongst us who is recommending you to do mu3a? The choice is yours but remember the aakhirah.

I heard in a majlis that one of the signs of weak faith is that people think more about what people think about their actions rather than what Allah thinks about their actions.

All these anti mut3a and anti early marriage stuff is cultural and culture has been made by MEN NOT Allah. I sincerely advise you to go ahead and do mut3a. And as a true believer I dont think you would want to marry a jealous woman or one who thinks low of you for doing a WAJIB act. Jelousy in women has been equated to kufr.

I openly say that all those people (who think they are very clean by discouraging mut3a and early marriage and polygamy), are in reality sexually corrupt, mentally corrupt, morally corrupt, worshipers of dajjal, enemies of the Imam Mahdi , wont hesitate to backstab him, etc etc etc.

While I think the analogy is a bit extreme and I think you're a bit harsh on the "worshipers of Dajjal" lol I do in essence agree with you.

Culture is what is messed up. Marrying your cousins, or within the family etc its all culture. Personally I can't stand some parts of the Pakistani culture
and I would love to disassociate from it to an extent. All that "family pride" stuff etc. Fair enough I can understand when it comes to girls of the family
not going out and running a muck, but guys in the west, have 2 choices, of which Muta is more viable and halal.

[Toronto110]

smiley, on Mar 11 2008, 10:00 PM, said:

But how do you go from seeing a strange woman at a restaurant, to proposing temporary marriage to her, without doing anything haram?

Excellent question.

I always wondered why I never had a chance to do Muta even after having so much urge during my "younger" years.
I never found an instance where you can come close to a woman.
For getting closer, one has to commit many many haraams. Going to clubs for the sake of pool (making himself and others fool), sitting on the table where alcohol is being served, listening to music, looking at half naked girls etc etc.
And I have been in western universities for quiet some time and know that "whatever might be the season, most of the girls wear decent clothes, may be little provocative, but not what they wear in the clubs (i had only been to a club on my mother's insistance on the day I graduated and my mother wanted me to have a look inside a club as all my friends were going, but I came out after ten minuites as a severe headache started due to loud noice) so the university excuse is not valid.

Muta is "Mustahib" as per our books, there is no doubt about it. The sentence in all Urdu tauzeeh  ul Massail I have read of five last mujtahids say that "Even if Mutah is being done for the sake of making someone mehram is okay", from which I can and also urdu speaking people can understand that "Mutah is something which is recommended for reducing your shehwat (lust)".

The situation where our young sleep around is something serious. It makes people wanting it more and once they are married this can create deep social problem, that is why Agha Sistani is not in favour of Mutah if one is married. www.Sistani.org

(I know people will misuse this reference, but it is written there with a precedent which needs to be understand and I think, not sure, but think that it is because of social complications)

Just be careful as excess of anything is bad and Maula Ali is in the favour of middle of the road attitude in our daily routines (except ibadah) (source: somewhere in Nahjul Balagha).

And for all those Mutah champions out there:
How would you feel if your father sleeps around behind the back of your mother?
How would you feel if your brother in law sleeps around behind the back of your sister?
How would you feel if your son in law sleeps around behind the back of your daughter?
and one day divorces your sister or daughter or mother. I have seen many cases in Toronto of this nature lately.

Be honest, because I have seen hundreds of cases where if you think something it will actually come around you. (what goes around, comes around)

And there are different analogies from Karbala's situation which we usually quote in our daily life. We cannot relate them to our daily lives. No Ayatullah/Marjaa would allow any person to take his six month old son to a war to make him a Martyr. Imam Hussain had a divine knowledge of what to do and how to acheive something. We are still debating Taqleed's issue over this forum and talk about Ashaab e Imam Hussain like we are true followers. Hazrat Habib ibn Mazahir was a "faqeeh" first and then a Martyr. He and all other Ashaab (Razi Allah JJ) were well aware of Imam's status whereas we are still debating what is Marjaa and what is Naib e Imam. Therefore these analogies are totally irrelevant in this instance.

As I have said earlier that there is high probability that Muta in Sydney or Toronto or Houston cannot be possible unless one is committing a haraam prior to doing Mutah. If one can find a chaste girl whom he can have pleasure of life for the sake of clean and tidy relationship, then Mutah is the greatest act one can do to save himself/herself from Haraam. But if the path of getting a girl is so filthy that Imam e Zamana would not expect us to be around that path, then it is prudent to remain away from that path.

I have seen people divorcing their wives and leaving their kids behind becuase they are being caught up in the continium of mutah's urge. It vanishes away in the first few years of marriage, but then it comes back and destroy our religion's image, as usually religious kids worry about not getting into fornication, but unfortunately dont control this habit and get into lifetime trouble, and also smear the image of islam. The whole family and friends who used to make fun of their religous zeal says that "see, we knew he is a sick kid" or "all religous people are sexually sick".
Please understand that religous people have the responsibilty to act religously and to act socially and to act sanely. Do mutah, have fun, enjoy the life, but make sure that religion is not hurt.

Brother Ding Dong is very sincere in his thoughts, but he is young. I must remind him about his decision of not going to the prom. He did that so that Islam should not get hurt. Just keep that in mind.

Edited by Toronto110, 12 March 2008 - 09:46 AM.

[youthshia]

^
Good post, Jazakallah.

Edited by youthshia, 12 March 2008 - 09:31 AM.

[Dirac Delta function]

Toronto110, on Mar 12 2008, 02:23 PM, said:

As I have said earlier that there is high probability that Muta in Sydney or Toronto or Houston cannot be possible unless one is committing a haraam prior to doing Mutah. If one can find a chaste girl whom he can have pleasure of life for the sake of clean and tidy relationship, then Mutah is the greatest act one can do to save himself/herself from Haraam. But if the path of getting a girl is so filthy that Imam e Zamana would not expect us to be around that path, then it is prudent to remain away from that path.

Yes, that's what prevents me from doiing muta. Here in England, you can very easily get a girl to sleep with you by getting her drunk, but if I were to go down that route, then seriously, who ya kidding, it's just zinna sugar coated to make you feel less guilty.
Even if you endevoured to have some kind of relationship with a girl instead of a one night stand, if she is a non-muslim, you will not get away from all the things that are haram, especially alcohol, which people start drinking age 13 here and do so massive volumes. Plus, I personally wouldn't want a relationship with a girl unless I intended to marry her rather than just use her for sex.

So all in all, it's nice in theory, but not always practical if you genuinely don't want to be involved in haram activities (like bars, clubs, alcohol etc).

[hubbe_hussein110]

Toronto110, on Mar 12 2008, 10:23 AM, said:

Excellent question.

I always wondered why I never had a chance to do Muta even after having so much urge during my "younger" years.
I never found an instance where you can come close to a woman.
For getting closer, one has to commit many many haraams. Going to clubs for the sake of pool (making himself and others fool), sitting on the table where alcohol is being served, listening to music, looking at half naked girls etc etc.
And I have been in western universities for quiet some time and know that "whatever might be the season, most of the girls wear decent clothes, may be little provocative, but not what they wear in the clubs (i had only been to a club on my mother's insistance on the day I graduated and my mother wanted me to have a look inside a club as all my friends were going, but I came out after ten minuites as a severe headache started due to loud noice) so the university excuse is not valid.

Muta is "Mustahib" as per our books, there is no doubt about it. The sentence in all Urdu tauzeeh  ul Massail I have read of five last mujtahids say that "Even if Mutah is being done for the sake of making someone mehram is okay", from which I can and also urdu speaking people can understand that "Mutah is something which is recommended for reducing your shehwat (lust)".

The situation where our young sleep around is something serious. It makes people wanting it more and once they are married this can create deep social problem, that is why Agha Sistani is not in favour of Mutah if one is married. www.Sistani.org

(I know people will misuse this reference, but it is written there with a precedent which needs to be understand and I think, not sure, but think that it is because of social complications)

Just be careful as excess of anything is bad and Maula Ali is in the favour of middle of the road attitude in our daily routines (except ibadah) (source: somewhere in Nahjul Balagha).

And for all those Mutah champions out there:
How would you feel if your father sleeps around behind the back of your mother?
How would you feel if your brother in law sleeps around behind the back of your sister?
How would you feel if your son in law sleeps around behind the back of your daughter?
and one day divorces your sister or daughter or mother. I have seen many cases in Toronto of this nature lately.

Be honest, because I have seen hundreds of cases where if you think something it will actually come around you. (what goes around, comes around)

And there are different analogies from Karbala's situation which we usually quote in our daily life. We cannot relate them to our daily lives. No Ayatullah/Marjaa would allow any person to take his six month old son to a war to make him a Martyr. Imam Hussain had a divine knowledge of what to do and how to acheive something. We are still debating Taqleed's issue over this forum and talk about Ashaab e Imam Hussain like we are true followers. Hazrat Habib ibn Mazahir was a "faqeeh" first and then a Martyr. He and all other Ashaab (Razi Allah JJ) were well aware of Imam's status whereas we are still debating what is Marjaa and what is Naib e Imam. Therefore these analogies are totally irrelevant in this instance.

As I have said earlier that there is high probability that Muta in Sydney or Toronto or Houston cannot be possible unless one is committing a haraam prior to doing Mutah. If one can find a chaste girl whom he can have pleasure of life for the sake of clean and tidy relationship, then Mutah is the greatest act one can do to save himself/herself from Haraam. But if the path of getting a girl is so filthy that Imam e Zamana would not expect us to be around that path, then it is prudent to remain away from that path.

I have seen people divorcing their wives and leaving their kids behind becuase they are being caught up in the continium of mutah's urge. It vanishes away in the first few years of marriage, but then it comes back and destroy our religion's image, as usually religious kids worry about not getting into fornication, but unfortunately dont control this habit and get into lifetime trouble, and also smear the image of islam. The whole family and friends who used to make fun of their religous zeal says that "see, we knew he is a sick kid" or "all religous people are sexually sick".
Please understand that religous people have the responsibilty to act religously and to act socially and to act sanely. Do mutah, have fun, enjoy the life, but make sure that religion is not hurt.

Brother Ding Dong is very sincere in his thoughts, but he is young. I must remind him about his decision of not going to the prom. He did that so that Islam should not get hurt. Just keep that in mind.

,

Very insightful bro! I really agreea bout the social problems one can get into due to engaging in multiple mutahs before permanent marriage. They will not like the idea of being with one woman for the rest of their life (speaking for the majority, not all). Just to look at the Western society, marriage and divorce is like a game to these people.

[Toronto110]

Hubbe_Hussein110, on Mar 12 2008, 12:45 PM, said:

,

Very insightful bro! I really agreea bout the social problems one can get into due to engaging in multiple mutahs before permanent marriage. They will not like the idea of being with one woman for the rest of their life (speaking for the majority, not all). Just to look at the Western society, marriage and divorce is like a game to these people.

Thanks for the comments by youthshia, dirac delta and hubbe hussain.

I, very recently, witnessed a disastrous breakup. Just because of continous urge to find new mates.
Islam actually gives an excellent understanding to a husband that "your wife has everything what other women have- nothing more, nothing less". and to tell the truth, I have witnessed so much satisfaction in my married life just because of that thought.

When I see these half naked girls/ladies, sleeping around with my colleagues, I usually wonder how come they can do, what ever they do, every second day. Dont these stupids realize that its the same thing like the previous one. It is the same product with different brand names. I think that in reality, Satan entices them with the thought that lets explore this one and there might be something different.

But all of the above said is not in defiance of Mutah. Mutah is allowed!!! No question about it.

How a person is using it is basically the question.

I can never imagine that some drunk will be able to breathes on my face just because she allows me to have her body. Dirac Delta very rightly pointed out that usually you cannot get away with alcohol in the surrounding of that woman. Imam e Zamana will totally be against  that.

Edited by Toronto110, 12 March 2008 - 12:13 PM.

[BintAlHoda]

Toronto110, on Mar 12 2008, 07:23 AM, said:

And I have been in western universities for quiet some time and know that "whatever might be the season, most of the girls wear decent clothes, may be little provocative, but not what they wear in the clubs

lol of course they do, you're in toronto, and it's cold there!  move south to the beach areas

[Hassan2jz]

BintAlHoda, on Mar 12 2008, 05:47 PM, said:

lol of course they do, you're in toronto, and it's cold there!  move south to the beach areas

Or better yet, move to Sydney.
It's one big beach front!  

[postmaster1923]

No, seriously, most people I encounter are pretty modest and apparently moral.  Maybe y'all who are running into all these promiscuous and lewdly dressed woman should change who you associate with or where you go.

alimohamad40, on Mar 12 2008, 04:09 AM, said:

you clearly said
" we can only marry a beliver christian female"

All Shia scholars agree that only Muslims and People of the Book are allowed to marry a Muslim man.  A person who does not believe in Christianity is not a Christian.  Please explain to me how a person can be an unbelieving Christian.

alimohamad40, on Mar 12 2008, 04:09 AM, said:

and then you saaid
" the one who would agree to mut3a is not a believing christian because the concept doesnt exist in thier belief"

then you said

" the one who doesnt mind fornicating is not a beliver "

I did not say these things.  It is true that Christianity does not allow temporary marriage or fornication, however, an unchaste woman may marry an unchaste man, and an unchaste man may marry an unchaste woman.  I have said repeatedly "Sin does not negate belief."

Edited by smiley, 12 March 2008 - 06:44 PM.

[Akritas]

To repeat what has been mentioned a few times already, Christians do not recognize mutah and indeed are not allowed to marry people of another faith period.  Thus no practicing Christian will consent to such an arrangement. You might get somebody to say they are Christian if they had to in order to 'make out' with you, I've seen a lot of people who will say say they are Christian though it affects their daily life not at all. But if what is in the heart makes the Christian, you will not get one to consent to this arrangement anyway. Even if they do you are causing them to commit a serious offense in their faith, not something I would like to do to a partner though if it is purely physical I guess that does not matter.  If only what the the mouth says makes a Christian, I guess you might get one in name enough to fit the letter of the law.

[alimohamad40]

Be honnest to your sleves before being honnest to others

I challenge any of the males to sware by Allah that he doesnt constantly fall into sins which are much bigger than (going to a club without drinking or fornicating)

you have to weigh the sins and see which one is bigger ,,,,

when you talk like this you remind me of this funny joke:  

a man fornicated with a woman and made her preganant.,,,,,,  they asked him why did you double the sin by not only fornicating but also making her preganant.,,,,,,  he said " i heard that counterceptives are makrooh"  
lolol idiot you heard that conterceptives are makrooh but you didnt hear that fornication is haraam ?  lol

its the devil that makes you stupid so you fall in t he bigger sin and avoid the halal way because you think the hallal way involves a makrooh act,,,,
they call this WASSWASSS  and ist the desease of the faithful people

A man who masturbates and fantisizes good women of his environment or takes out his anger and frustration on others because of the hunger for marriage can not say
" oh I can not do mut3a because i will fall into sins"

god never forces you to fal into sins,,,  you can be smart ,,,,  u can explain,,, you can be missionary.,,,  you can change the culture

even the worse case scenario of going to clubs,,, analyse whats haraam about clubs

alcohol
fornication
nudity
music
supporting evil enviroenement and evil culture


when you go you dont intend any of the above if your looking to get married,,,

your looking to change the enviroenement and culture and boycott the drinking,,,,,
your looking to change the mentality and tell them that all this rubish that they do, god has solved it in one simple thing called marriage.....

so it depends why you go and if your going for the sake of marriage then Allah will not punish you because you are forced to avoid bigger sins

Allah says :  "and whoever was forced without being and intentional tranbsgressor then there is no sin on him"


if you masturbate or fantisize good women in your enviroenment then you cant say
" oh i will not go to club and i will not do mut3a with christians because it wil involve sin"
you have a duty by the religion to exhause all the methods to get married even if that means marrying a prostitute or going to nightclub and marrying a loose girl from there..


you are never forced to do sin
If your going for the sake of music and alcohol and watching naked females then yes you shouldnt go.

But if your constantly falling in sins and you have no other avenue then its wajib on you to exhaust all methods to get married including the club.


God never forces you do sin,,,  you can go into a club and show boycot towards drinking and make your intention very obvious......  music in the background is not haraam on you because your not lsitning to music , just like when you enter a shopping center and they put music in the back ground

looking at naked people is not haraam if they do not care themsleves exceot when there is temptation  ( you can check the fiqh books for Alkhoie) and if you get tempted your intention if mariage so Allah allows special cases for that,,,,

and even if its counted as sins you have to weigh it and see how big is it compared to staying single ,,,,

Allah has allowed all sorts of special cases for those who want to marry....   a man is allowed to look at the features of a female and even to see her with no hijab if he has the intention of marrying her
just check the fiqh books

all this so you dont have the execuse to do the haraam.......   and in judgment you will not have the execuse to tell god ,,, oh i was forced to do the haraam

because he will askl you did you exhause all the methods ??? and you say oh i didnt go to club becaue it has sin,,,,,  he will tell you " good but did you abstain from sin or did you end up doing a bigger sin ???"  and you will say " i ended up doing a bigger sin" and he will ounish you for that,,,,  because he will tell you " i gave you a brain to weight the sins and i made all special cases for you to get married yet you decided to do the haraam instead of the hallal"


i knwo some who go to club and they maried  some loose girls from there ,,,, these guys are much cleaner than some who dont go to club because the others turned gay,,,,,


It doesnt look like people have reached this level as some here prefer to do the haraam just so they could have a peaceful life....

Dont forget that Allah knows all thse situations so he even allowed the men to amrry a prostitute,,,,

now tell me where will you find the prostitute ??? in the mosque ????  or in the schoool???  

do when Allah aloowed this did he not know that approching prostitutes will allways involve sin ??
supporting a prostitute is a sin because its confirming her actions .....  but yet Allah allows it as a lesser of two evils and he makes the law generally makrooh (permissible with undesirability)


Some people can abstain from clubs and evil environment and and stay pure from sin so that is thier choice,,,,  
but most people can not do that so its much better for them to exhaust all emthods to get married,.

[alimohamad40]

smiley i cant play tom and jerry game ,,,,, you very well know what you said and i can make it more simple for you to see what you have said by asking you one simple question



in which case does Allah allow a muslim man to do temproary marriage with a christian lady??? if this case doesnt exist at all then what is the verse alaraaf 157 talking about ???

origional poster :
my advice to you,,, if the females your going with are currupted and anti religion then try to give them advice and help them turn to god,,,  if there is no hope then use them as much as you can  to shield yourself from major sins,,,,  Islam alolows you to use evil females to your advantage.  Even you can lie to them to get your way if you see that they do not get guided at all.

If the girls your going with are good ones then allways make your intention to have permenant marriage with them...   so do not intend to leave them except if they insist,,,,  plan to make her the mother for your kids,,,, and udnerstand that partner changing for females is very damaging and sampling is bad for both males and females,,,,,

so we have to try our best to get the good girls maried permenantly and stabilize rather than change partners for no good reason other than sampling,,,,

even the bad ones we have to advice them to live a stable lifestyle....
temporary amrriage can not replace permenant mariage,,,, and its not there to replace permenant marriage...

the prophet said " god hates the sampling males and  females"  , those who marry just to taste and sample the person and then throw it....   thats wasting ,,,, and damaging...

[postmaster1923]

alimohamad40, on Mar 12 2008, 08:59 PM, said:

smiley i cant play tom and jerry game ,,,,, you very well know what you said and i can make it more simple for you to see what you have said by asking you one simple question

in which case does Allah allow a muslim man to do temproary marriage with a christian lady??? if this case doesnt exist at all then what is the verse alaraaf 157 talking about ???

It is false that Christians are not allowed to marry non-Christians. It is allowed for them.  TEMPORARY marriage is the prohibition.  Actually, not even that is the problem.  The problem is that she would never be allowed to marry someone else after the termination of the temporary marriage, until after the death of her former husband, because Christianity does not recognize the termination of marriage at all.  If a woman is cognizant of this, and is still willing to temporarily marry, that is on her, not on you.  I only oppose misleading chaste ahul kitab women, who often believe the marriage will be permanent, EVEN IF YOU HAVE CLEARLY STATED THAT IT IS TEMPORARY, because that is the female nature.  Women naturally seek permanence with one partner.  If you are honest and forthright, and believe that she reasonably understands what she is agreeing to, I have no issue with mutah with Christian women.  I emphasize, this is my advice, from my own opinion and observation, not an Islamic ruling.  If a woman believes in Christianity, but has no problem with sinning (according to her own belief) that is just fine for some men, and apparently permitted.  

Anyway, my comments to the effect of "You can't have mutah with a chaste and pious Christian woman" were in another thread.  Let's stay on topic here.  We are talking about women who are willing to fornicate, and whether the OP is well advised to marry them.

And brother, I am still waiting for you to explain a verse to me, then when I understand that verse better, we can move on to discussing another verse.  I am not very skilled in reading Arabic, as it is not a language I have known for many years.  In light of this verse, can you explain why some of our holy prophets, peace be upon them, were married to bad women, and why one of the best of all women was married to the Pharoah of Egypt?

Quote

24:26 Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.

(Note that this is not a challenge of any kind.  I really would appreciate your expertise to help me understand this verse, since you are a fluent reader of Arabic and I am not.)

Edited by smiley, 12 March 2008 - 09:34 PM.

[alimohamad40]

smily you stil didnt answer the question and its very simple.....
give us one good case where a muslim man can marry a christian woman,,,,,

If this case doesnt exist then what is araaf 157 talking about ?


as with the verse you qouted

Quote

24:26 Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.

i wil not give my openion but i wil give you fadlallah's openion

" this verse has not come down as an order but is in the maning of (each type falls on thier equivilant)"

this means generally a good man will look for a good woman who thinks like him and vice versa a good woman will look for her equivilant,,,,  this is general,,, but the exceptions to exist

and you have to look at the word " FOR" in the verse and try to derive what it would mean ???

pure men for pure women???  is that realated to marriage???
if yes does it include permenant marriage  and temporary and mulk alyameen marriage ?

if it excludes any category then why ?



I am complaining baout your statements for one obvious reason,,,,  a good christian woman who is prone to being effected by dawa and leaning to islam would accept islamic concepts becaue christianity has not put concepts where the people are required to folow. belive in jesus and you will have slavation regardless of what you do and what you eat and so on.... thats what the church people told me.....

so you are daring and disabling the whole institution that Allah with his wisdom put for a reason.....

you saying
" its recomended that bad christian females should be avoided "  

" and good ones should be avoided"

" and any woman leaning towards islam and acccepting the concept of mut3a is a bad christian so she should be avoided"

So you have disabled the whole concept ,,,,,,,  because the good christian will not do it and the bad christian we must avoid so that eliminated all the christians


so gods wrods in alaraf 157 are contradictory if i want to accept your claims because he is recomending us to amrry christian females ??? so tell us who is he recomending us to marry whom he is calling christians ????  simple question????  are they the bad christians who accept mut3a? or the bad christians who dont care whichj you also recomend against marrying them and in some instances you prohibited ?

just listen to your self and youll see lots of contradictions

so you disabled the whole verse and made gods words and recomendation to marry the females of ahlulkitab sound useless and nonesnese


you keep repeating " unchaste man can take and unchaste kitabi woman"   but who told you that a good man can not ??? bring proof for your claim

[Hassan2jz]

alimohamad40, on Mar 12 2008, 08:59 PM, said:

smiley i cant play tom and jerry game ,,,,, you very well know what you said and i can make it more simple for you to see what you have said by asking you one simple question



in which case does Allah allow a muslim man to do temproary marriage with a christian lady??? if this case doesnt exist at all then what is the verse alaraaf 157 talking about ???

origional poster :
my advice to you,,, if the females your going with are currupted and anti religion then try to give them advice and help them turn to god,,,  if there is no hope then use them as much as you can  to shield yourself from major sins,,,,  Islam alolows you to use evil females to your advantage.  Even you can lie to them to get your way if you see that they do not get guided at all.

If the girls your going with are good ones then allways make your intention to have permenant marriage with them...   so do not intend to leave them except if they insist,,,,  plan to make her the mother for your kids,,,, and udnerstand that partner changing for females is very damaging and sampling is bad for both males and females,,,,,

so we have to try our best to get the good girls maried permenantly and stabilize rather than change partners for no good reason other than sampling,,,,

even the bad ones we have to advice them to live a stable lifestyle....
temporary amrriage can not replace permenant mariage,,,, and its not there to replace permenant marriage...

the prophet said " god hates the sampling males and  females"  , those who marry just to taste and sample the person and then throw it....   thats wasting ,,,, and damaging...

WS
Thanks for the advice.
I will take it on board......this thread has all round been pretty helpful.

[postmaster1923]

alimohamad40, on Mar 13 2008, 01:25 AM, said:

smily you stil didnt answer the question and its very simple.....
give us one good case where a muslim man can marry a christian woman,,,,,

If this case doesnt exist then what is araaf 157 talking about ?

I already answered this.  If she, with full awareness of what she is agreeing to, agrees, that is on her, not you.  I am opposed to misleading naive women, or taking advantage of the emotionally generous nature of some women, to convince a chaste Christian woman to temporarily marry you.  Unless she leaves Christianity or sins (according to her own belief) it will ruin her life.

alimohamad40, on Mar 13 2008, 01:25 AM, said:

as with the verse you qouted

i wil not give my openion but i wil give you fadlallah's openion

" this verse has not come down as an order but is in the maning of (each type falls on thier equivilant)"

this means generally a good man will look for a good woman who thinks like him and vice versa a good woman will look for her equivilant,,,,  this is general,,, but the exceptions to exist

so you say it isn't even advice, just a comment?



What I meant when I said that you can't have mutah with a chaste and pious Christian woman is that no chaste and pious Christian woman will, with full knowledge of what she is agreeing to and with clear logical thinking, agree to mutah.  But that isn't relevant in this topic.  Here, the OP is talking about women who are willing to fornicate, and asking if he is doing anything wrong by engaging in mutah "many times" with many different women.  I have already given my opinion on that matter:  Technically he isn't doing anything haram, but he's just begging to pick up some disease, and also I find it hard to believe that he can meet and proposition these women without engaging in haram acts.

[alimohamad40]

smiley:

Quote

What I meant when I said that you can't have mutah with a chaste and pious Christian woman is that no chaste and pious Christian woman will, with full knowledge of what she is agreeing to and with clear logical thinking, agree to mutah.

are you challenging god ??? then why does god say marry the protected christians in araaf 157???  it its imposible why does god promote it and call it Taybaat???

you are full of contradictions just listen to yourself

[postmaster1923]

alimohamad40, on Mar 13 2008, 09:35 PM, said:

smiley:

are you challenging god ??? then why does god say marry the protected christians in araaf 157???  it its imposible why does god promote it and call it Taybaat???

you are full of contradictions just listen to yourself

Please point out any contradiction I may have made.  I do not see it.  Also, on what basis do you ask if I am challenging God?  Pardon my cluelessness, but I was unaware.  Where did I say that a Muslim is not permitted to marry a Christian?  I simply said that a chaste and pious practicing Christian would never consent to mutah, if she were fully aware of what she was consenting to.  That doesn't mean the man can't still ask.  Maybe she would be so "in love" with him, that it makes ruining her life worthwhile.  Maybe she doesn't mind sinning (according to her own beliefs).  PLEASE POINT OUT TO ME WHERE IN THIS THREAD I SAID, OR EVEN IMPLIED, THAT MARRIAGE TO A CHRISTIAN WOMAN IS NOT POSSIBLE.  Saying that it violates Christianity is not the same as saying it is impossible.

Maybe before you respond, you should take a minute or two, and just read through what I have ACTUALLY SAID.

[Maryaam]

smiley, on Mar 13 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

I simply said that a chaste and pious practicing Christian would never consent to mutah, if she were fully aware of what she was consenting to.

I am ski friends with practising Christians and you are quite right that a practising Christian would not engage in Mutah - from the Christian perspective it is fornication and they would be spoiling themselves for their husband...and they only have permanent husbands. They are really really clear about this. It has been reason to commit suicide to have committed zina or have an unmarried pregnancy.

Al 40:
Chastity is extremely important to believing Christians.  Soo.. if a Shia male agrees to mutah with a non practising person whose family is "Christian" (they celebrate Christmas ) - is that person really ahl al-kitab? If not then it is haram. Ahl al kitab refers to believers. You cant just twist this to meet your needs - if they are not a believer in their faith they are not ahl al-kitab.

[Hassan2jz]

Maryaam, on Mar 13 2008, 11:49 PM, said:

I am ski friends with practising Christians and you are quite right that a practising Christian would not engage in Mutah - from the Christian perspective it is fornication and they would be spoiling themselves for their husband...and they only have permanent husbands. They are really really clear about this. It has been reason to commit suicide to have committed zina or have an unmarried pregnancy.

Al 40:
Chastity is extremely important to believing Christians.  Soo.. if a Shia male agrees to mutah with a non practising person whose family is "Christian" (they celebrate Christmas ) - is that person really ahl al-kitab? If not then it is haram. Ahl al kitab refers to believers. You cant just twist this to meet your needs - if they are not a believer in their faith they are not ahl al-kitab.

WS

You sound very authoritative there.

What is the definition of believer? You could have a Christian who is a believer, but not necessarily strict.
There aren't many strict Christians these days anyway......

[BintAlHoda]

I think what they're trying to do is present the Christian perspective.  What the world looks like from their shoes.  

An analogy would be - as far as I know - it ok for a Christian to marry a non-Christian.  So, they see nothing wrong with it if a Muslim lady marries a Christian man, because it's all ok to them.

So they don't understand it when we get upset about a Muslim lady marrying a Christian man (in fact, the marriage is void, but anyway).  They think we're being racist and prejudiced and repressive and so forth.  Because they can't put themselves in our shoes and understand our religious law.

It's the same thing... to understand their perspective, we need to try to see the world from their worldview, even though we don't share it

Along with that, I do think that a lot of Muslims who are not born in the West and who immigrate here (not who grow up here) from countries where religion is a very ingrained part of society overestimate the role of Christianity in the daily lives of people in the West because they are so used to religion being an everyday part of society and because we group them all as "Ahl al-Kitab" in Islamic thought.  Although there are definitely some people for whom the church is an integral part of their lives, they are a minority.  There is a large segement of the population that may nominally identify themselves as Christian but not pay any particular attention to religion, and I think that sometimes is not always recognized by people who don't grow up here.

[alimohamad40]

most of you folow sistani
i want to see if you can find it in your selves to accept your scholars defenition oppsoed to your personal openions of what defenition of ahlulkitab is and which marriage is valid:

rule number 394
http://www.sistani.o...n...53&pid=2799


In countries where the majority of people consists of atheists and Ahlul Kitab, i.e.  non-Muslims, it is necessary for a Muslim to ask the woman whom he wants to marry about her religion so that he may ensure that she is not an atheist and thus the marriage be valid. Her answer [about her faith and religion] is to be accepted

so ahlulkitab is anyone who selfidentify themself as ahlulkitab
all these made up conditions about
1) they must be true belivers and not be of the bad type
2) and must not accept mut3a because it contradicts thier religion
3) and must not lean towards islam because islam is against thier religion and leaning towards it would imply hypocricy on thier behalf

all these conditions are out of the blue and have no islamic bases , the purpose of them is to disbale a concept that Allah has allowed and encouraged in verse 5:5 by calling it TAYYBAAT ( the pure and good plerasures)

let me guess where do these personal fatwas originate ???
personal ego ? personal desires? lust for this world?    
yes they are personal whims

[Toronto110]

BintAlHoda, on Mar 12 2008, 06:47 PM, said:

lol of course they do, you're in toronto, and it's cold there!  move south to the beach areas

Stayed in Houston for my bachelors from UofH. Galveston is very close. But I remember, i had a "low your gaze" problem at that time, so that is another solution by Islam.

[postmaster1923]

LOL alimohamad40 . . . .accuses me of contradicting Islam, hypocracy, issuing personal fatwas, challenging God. . . .

Then posts a fatwa from Ayt. Sistani which says EXACTLY what I said on page 1.  Maybe I do know some things.  


If she appears from her actions to not care about any religion (i.e. she is wiling to fornicate) YOU CAN'T ASSUME SHE IS CHRISTIAN, YOU HAVE TO ASK.  

Brother alimohamad40, a word of advice for you:  don't argue with people who aren't disagreeing with you.  It makes you look really foolish.

I'm done here, unless there is something new to say.  I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over.  It's been three pages of repetition.  (Some people just don't get it, no matter how many times you say it, no matter how many different ways you try to rephrase it.)

Edited by smiley, 14 March 2008 - 07:33 AM.