188 replies to this topic

[FatimehJ]

I am a revert to Islam and have been for many many years now and have been chugging along quite nicely not really belonging to any group.

I initially converted with Sunni Moslems when very young, then spent the majority of my adult life amongst Shia Moslems and the last 7 or 8 years with Sunni Moslems again.

I feel like a child of a mixed race marriage!

I also felt over the years that everyone wanted a piece of me as a convert and loved to tell me the 'right way'.

Anyway 7 or 8 years ago I found a Sufi Tariqat - Naqshbandi - these people were extremely open minded and tolerant and it didn't seem to matter what group you belonged to. They are mostly Sunni, but I have met a few Shia in the tariqat. Amongst the Sunnis there are members of different Sunni groups. It is never an issue. They all share an aim to get closer to Allah and be good practising Moslems. Everything seemed simple when I joined the tariqat. I had a sheikh to turn to - to answer any doubts or questions I had (just like Shia Moslems seem to ask Ayatollahs).

I now consider myself mainly Shia in belief but belonging to this sufi tariqat which has honestly helped me become more spiritual.

So after finding this forum I was very happy too - a group of people from the school of thought I identify most with and discussing issues I want to discuss - BUT I found some discussions stating sufism isn't acceptable in Shia Islam and wanted to discuss this further.


Is this really true or just some hardliner view? Surely Hafez, Attar and Rumi and such are acceptable. Surely the desire to conquer your ego, live simply and worship Allah cannot be wrong?

I am bitterly disappointed if it is true that I cannot follow Shia Islam and remain part of my tariqat.

I would be really grateful for any insight from members on this issue.

Allah hafez

Fatimeh

[Tankbuster]

I'm not sure, but perhaps you want to post this in the Shia/Sunni Discussion Forum...

Just my 2 cents. Good luck on your quest.

[JawzofDETH]

Salaam

Look sister, there is nothing wrong in my view with being shi'a and belonging to sufi Tariqat, but don't turn to that shaykh when it comes to matters of furoo/ fiqh and usool, for this you should remain with our school's beliefs:

- Tawhid (As we shi'as understand it, not that sufi Wahdahul-Wujood nonsense)
- Nabuwwah (As we understand them as Ma'soom etc.)
- Imaamah (As we understand them, not just studying the sufi/ irfanic branches, but everything they taught, law, Aqeedah etc.)
- Adalah (As we understand it)
- Qiyamah (As we understand it)

Various laws and how to pray, fast and pay khumms etc. should remain the way we do it.

I understand that many shi'as join sufi tariqats in order to benefit from the Tazkiyahta-Nafs part (Purifying the soul), as if it doesn't exist in our sect, on the contrary if only they studied our texts, they themselves would be the shaykhs and not pledging bayya to some posing long-bearded fellow. They really have nothing to teach us, well, except maybe a few breathing exercises to improve muraqabah/ dhikr -which they themselves borrowed from far eastern practitioners.

The way I see it, go and benefit from whatever they teach you, but remember that you already follow the silsilah par excellence.
Use what they can teach you and come back to your own sources.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that people like Mu'inudeen Chisti, Laal Shahbaaz and others were great men, but their so-called mureeds and understudies are far from their heels.

Remember that we follow the 12 Imaams , just as Isa had 12 disciples and Musa had 12 Chieftans over the 12 tribes.
Ahle-Sunnah doesn't follow them, we do, they are cursed, insulted and scoffed at in their books, while it was shi'as who collected the pearls which flow from their mouths all those years, sufis on the other hand, much like thieves take their traditions, some study the Jafr and do not give them their due position.

I remember a sufi telling me a story about a man who slapped another man on the face because that man had three beliefs.

- Allah can be seen
- Shaytan cannot burn in fire
- Allah coerces us to do things

I said: "I aught to slap you for saying that tradition because it is a dialogue between Behlool (Rah) and Abu Hanifah, where Behlool threw a clay brick at Abu Hanifah." The ironic part being this sufi was also a Hanafi.

What can we say at the end of the day?  

Edited by JawzofDETH, 25 February 2008 - 09:13 AM.

[eThErEaL]

Peace be with you.

I would continue doing what you are doing.  I am shia also and Sufism is beautiful.  Just make sure you dont switch from one type of shariah to another.  If you know the prophet prayed a particular way dont pray a different way for example.  You will be judged on what you know.  But what you are doing is beautiful.  keep it up.

M3salama.

[The Persian Shah]

FatimehJ, although I do not agree with Sufi'ism in generally - the Naqshbandi order (having known Sheikh Nazem in Cyprus, and some of his followers) is one of the more "acceptable" orders.

You see, Irfan ("Spiritual Wayfaring") is what you are really attracted to (the core idea in some orders of sufi'ism too) - and this is a very noble concept. Sufi'ism started out as nothing but innovations, and most of the 72 orders still contain ridiculous innovations, however, I have seen nothing bad from the Naqshbandi order. Although, I cannot say this is conclusive as they may still having some unacceptable ideas still floating around somewhere in there, which I have yet to discover. In brief, you don't need any new Tariqat for Irfan - if you want my advice, stick to what you got, and what all the prominent Ayatullahs also did.

If you like the idea of Irfan, just read materials from any of the three in my sig. Notice how they all make a clear distinction between Tassawuf and Irfan too. They are all accomplished 'Arifs as well.

A good Irfani book that I recommend for reading is "Light Within Me" (written by all three in my sig), and which is available to read for free on al-islam.org.

[JawzofDETH]

I made a typo 'Wahdatul-Wujood' which is like Pantheism.
And 'Light Within Me' is a brilliant book.

Edited by JawzofDETH, 26 February 2008 - 08:12 AM.

[jonrhaider]

Just thought I'd share what I'd read in Sayyed Hossein Nasr's book The Heart of Islam:

It is meaningless to ask, as many Western scholars and especially anthropologists have done, whether a particular Muslim is a Sunni or a Sufi, or for that matter a Shi'ite or a Sufi. A Sunni or Shi'ite can be a Sufi or not a Sufi, but the situation is not one of alternatives, because these dimensions of the religion are not situated on the same level of reality.
(Nasr, Seyyed Hossein. The Heart of Islam.New York: HarperCollins, 2002: p.63)

And it was Sayyed Haydar Amuli who believed that "Every true Sufi is a Shi'ite, and every true Shi'ite is a Sufi"
(Nasr, Seyyed Hossein. Sufi Essays.New York: Suny Press, 1973: p.115)

So there may be some differences, but as long as you stick with the fundementals and avoid any deviation from them. I think, at least, you should be okay!
Salam

[Kismet110]

Ironically the Naqshbandi tariqaat traces it's lineage back to Abu Bakr whereas all the others trace it back to Imam Ali via Hz. Owais Qarni!

There's a book about the Ahlulbait whose title currently eludes me written by an American sufi, well worth a read. He isn't of the same tariqaat (I assume) because the chapter on Fadaq is very scathing of the first Caliph. When I remember the name I'll post it here insha'Allah.

Back to the original question though. Shia'ism isn't opposed to the general concepts, irfan and gnosticism go hand in hand with shiah philosophy. What shiah alims do warn about though is retreat from society and 'material' (for want of a better word) responsibilities.

Allah Hafiz

ALI

[The Persian Shah]

Exactly. So it really just depend on the definition of Sufi that you are using. If it's innovation = bad, but if it's more Irfani = good.

However, I finally discovered something about the Naqshbandi order. Being the more traditional Sufi's, who base their tafseers on love, and only love, they make some ridiculous tafseers from the Qur'an, and they also don't believe in cursing. Not even Yazeed [LA] or Mu'awiyah [LA] etc !

[FatimehJ]

The Persian Shah, on Feb 29 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

Exactly. So it really just depend on the definition of Sufi that you are using. If it's innovation = bad, but if it's more Irfani = good.

However, I finally discovered something about the Naqshbandi order. Being the more traditional Sufi's, who base their tafseers on love, and only love, they make some ridiculous tafseers from the Qur'an, and they also don't believe in cursing. Not even Yazeed [LA] or Mu'awiyah [LA] etc !

With respect, how can you find it wrong not to believe in cursing. We do not know what Allah knows and everything that happens and happened was Allah's will even the bad things. It is not for us to judge people and start cursing. we do not have to respect them that is another thing, but I am not sure that cursing is the right way to go about things, so this does not put me off.  They are very traditional and have a lot of respect for all the Prophet's (s.a.w.s.) family especially the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) himself and of all the Moslems I have encountered in my 33 years of being a Moslem - I can honestly say they seem to be the most sincere and worship from the heart. But saying that even though Sheikh Nazim talks much of love, I have also seen him very angry - I have seen him angry at what the Wahabis are doing to Islam and to the holy places for example, but with most things he shows extreme tolerance and brings many many people to Islam. It is easy to judge from snippets online or out of context, but those who have met this sheikh and murids of the Naqshbandi will tell you how it really is - and the Naqshbandi are generally extremely devout and spiritual.

I have no qualms about being part of this tariqat but just wanted to also follow shia rather than sunni form of Islam along with this. this is why I asked - it wasn't an option to leave the tariqat for me - more if I would be accepted into shia Islam?

Allah hafez
Fatimeh

[macisaac]

FatimehJ, on Feb 29 2008, 05:52 PM, said:

With respect, how can you find it wrong not to believe in cursing. We do not know what Allah knows and everything that happens and happened was Allah's will even the bad things. It is not for us to judge people and start cursing.

Without getting too deeply into it right now, but the general idea of there being at least some type of cursing that is appropriate can be found in the Quran itself:

Åöäøó ÇáøóÐöíäó íóßúÊõãõæäó ãóÇ ÃóäÒóáúäóÇ ãöäó ÇáúÈóíøöäóÇÊö æóÇáúåõÏóì ãöä ÈóÚúÏö ãóÇ ÈóíøóäøóÇåõ áöáäøóÇÓö Ýöí ÇáúßöÊóÇÈö ÃõæáóÜÆößó íóáÚóäõåõãõ Çááøåõ æóíóáúÚóäõåõãõ ÇááøóÇÚöäõæäó {159

[Shakir 2:159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).


ÅöáÇøó ÇáøóÐöíäó ÊóÇÈõæÇú æóÃóÕúáóÍõæÇú æóÈóíøóäõæÇú ÝóÃõæúáóÜÆößó ÃóÊõæÈõ Úóáóíúåöãú æóÃóäóÇ ÇáÊøóæøóÇÈõ ÇáÑøóÍöíãõ {160

[Shakir 2:160] Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth), these it is to whom I turn (mercifully); and I am the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Åöäøó ÇáøóÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇ æóãóÇÊõæÇ æóåõãú ßõÝøóÇÑñ ÃõæáóÆößó Úóáóíúåöãú áóÚúäóÉõ Çááøåö æóÇáúãóáÂÆößóÉö æóÇáäøóÇÓö ÃóÌúãóÚöíäó {161

[Shakir 2:161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

[MajiC]

FatimehJ, on Feb 25 2008, 01:32 PM, said:

I found some discussions stating sufism isn't acceptable in Shia Islam and wanted to discuss this further.

Is this really true or just some hardliner view? Surely Hafez, Attar and Rumi and such are acceptable. Surely the desire to conquer your ego, live simply and worship Allah cannot be wrong?

Gnostics are found in almost every creed because Mysticism/Gnosis/Irfan is the essential core of every divine religion and hence at this level we find the greatest coalescence between religions.

Gnostics are found in almost every creed because Mysticism/Gnosis/Irfan is the essential core of every divine religion and hence at this level we find the greatest coalescence between religions.

Although certain Shi'ahs are opposed to mysticism and the common masses content themselves with the exoteric and dry aspects of Islam the truth is that gnosis and the esoteric is the real essence and the 'juice' of Shi'ah Islam.  Jallaudeen Rumi is actually revered and often quoted by many of the Shia'h mystic-ulama. Naturally Shi'ism doesn't fully accept nor fully reject Sufi practises but instead adheres to its own reading of Islamic mysticism based on the profound raw material found in the traditions of the Prophet [pbuh] and the Infallible Imams [as].  In fact most Sufi orders (ex. Naqshabandi) trace their roots and lineage to the Shi'ah Imams Ali and Jaffar al-Sadiq [as]. The Gnostics universally believe in the worship of Love. Rumi captures this: "The lovers have a creed of their own, their only creed is Love". In this connection the Shi'ah Imams [as] have made many statements that demonstrate the real essence and purpose of Shi'ah Islam, including but not limited to the folowing:

"What is Islam if not Love" - Imam al-Sadiq [as]

"O Lord, I did not worship thee out of fear of your hell nor for the greed of your paradise. Rather, I found thee to be worthy of worship so I worshipped thee." - Imam Ali [as]

"Those who worship Allah out of fear that is the worship of slaves. Those who worship him out of greed that is the worship of mechants. But those who worship Him out of love, that is the worship of free-spirited men (gnostics)." - Imam Jaffar al-Sadiq [as]

Naturally there are certain theoretical difference between Shi'i Gnostics and others but what also distinguishes them is that they do not follow many of the 'invented' customs nor do they dress as a distinct social class. Nevertheless they've always existed and they are in reality the true Gnostics. Some of the most prominent Shi'i personalities of the 20th century were also profound Gnostics. These include Imam Ruhollah Musawi Khomeini, Allamah Muhammad Hussein Tabataba'i and Ayatullah Murtadha Mutahhari (see Persian Shah�s signature banner!). In fact those three have co-authored a short and basic book on the subject: Light Within Me

For the Shi'i perspective on Sufism I highly recommend you read Mutahhari's comprehensive article:

Introduction to 'Irfan

Other resources:

Irfan and Sufism

Adab al-Suluk: A Treatise on Spiritual Wayfaring

[FatimehJ]

macisaac, on Feb 29 2008, 11:29 PM, said:

Without getting too deeply into it right now, but the general idea of there being at least some type of cursing that is appropriate can be found in the Quran itself:

Åöäóø ÇáóøÐöíäó íóßúÊõãõæäó ãóÇ ÃóäÒóáúäóÇ ãöäó ÇáúÈóíöøäóÇÊö æóÇáúåõÏóì ãöä ÈóÚúÏö ãóÇ ÈóíóøäóøÇåõ áöáäóøÇÓö Ýöí ÇáúßöÊóÇÈö ÃõæáóÜÆößó íóáÚóäõåõãõ Çááøåõ æóíóáúÚóäõåõãõ ÇááóøÇÚöäõæäó {159

[Shakir 2:159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).


ÅöáÇóø ÇáóøÐöíäó ÊóÇÈõæÇú æóÃóÕúáóÍõæÇú æóÈóíóøäõæÇú ÝóÃõæúáóÜÆößó ÃóÊõæÈõ Úóáóíúåöãú æóÃóäóÇ ÇáÊóøæóøÇÈõ ÇáÑóøÍöíãõ {160

[Shakir 2:160] Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth), these it is to whom I turn (mercifully); and I am the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Åöäóø ÇáóøÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇ æóãóÇÊõæÇ æóåõãú ßõÝóøÇÑñ ÃõæáóÆößó Úóáóíúåöãú áóÚúäóÉõ Çááøåö æóÇáúãóáÂÆößóÉö æóÇáäóøÇÓö ÃóÌúãóÚöíäó {161

[Shakir 2:161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

I still think there is a difference her between Allah cursing and us mortals! Especially when it comes to companions of the Prophet (s.a.w.s.). We have beliefs of what happened at that time, but were not present then and do not have all the full facts. We do not know who was forgiven by Allah for example, so I personally do not wish or will not start saying bad things about any of the Prophets (s.a.w.s) companions even if they have committed what I believe to be inappropriate or wrong acts. I leave that judgement for Allah alone.

Allah hafez
Fatimeh

[macisaac]

FatimehJ, on Mar 1 2008, 02:14 AM, said:

I still think there is a difference her between Allah cursing and us mortals! Especially when it comes to companions of the Prophet (s.a.w.s.). We have beliefs of what happened at that time, but were not present then and do not have all the full facts. We do not know who was forgiven by Allah for example, so I personally do not wish or will not start saying bad things about any of the Prophets (s.a.w.s) companions even if they have committed what I believe to be inappropriate or wrong acts. I leave that judgement for Allah alone.

Allah hafez
Fatimeh

Read the ayat again, note how it specifies men (mortals) cursing with Allah and His angels.  Here's another one:


áõÚöäó ÇáøóÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇú ãöä Èóäöí ÅöÓúÑóÇÆöíáó Úóáóì áöÓóÇäö ÏóÇæõæÏó æóÚöíÓóì ÇÈúäö ãóÑúíóãó Ðóáößó ÈöãóÇ ÚóÕóæÇ æøóßóÇäõæÇú íóÚúÊóÏõæäó {78

[Shakir 5:78] Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.

At any rate, regardless of whether one wants to add in a "La`natullahi `alayh" after saying someone's name or what have you, the Sunnis go so far as saying that not only can we not curse any of the "companions" (a term which to many of them would include such people as Mu`awiya (la), enemy of our Imams ), a number of them will say you can't even criticize them.  Mu`awiya went to war against Imam `Ali, and the others who did as well?  Well, to them you can't criticize that.  They say they were both sahabi, higher than us, so the matter of thousands of Muslims being killed, and the waging of war against the rightful khalifa, that's something we're not allowed to speak against.  Even al-Ghazali (whom you may have heard a lot about in hanging around Sufis) said it was impermissible to curse Yazeed (la), declaring him to be a mu'min!  Remember, along with tawalla to Allah's awliya, we also believe in tabarra' from His enemies.  And an enemy of the Messenger of Allah , an enemy of Fatima az-Zahra , an enemy of the Holy Imams , is an enemy of Allah.

Edited by macisaac, 01 March 2008 - 06:36 AM.

[FatimehJ]

I cannot know how it feels to have had 3 siblings killed, I agree and I also understand why you would curse their killers for example. But the reason I made my statement was that I do not think it acceptable to criticise a group of people for deciding not to curse! The comment was made that it was a negative thing that the Naqshbandi did not curse.

I personally think there is too much negative feeling and emotions around - I see it in the forums too. People seem to want to rant and rave and use aggressive words against each other in some of the debates and they forget to respect and yes, love.

I would rather say Istaghfirullah rather than use so much anger towards a person. Don't forget words of anger can also get out of hand and develop into angry actions.

Don't get me wrong - I also believe there is a time and place for cursing, for anger and for fighting. But, I think a lot of people spend a lot of time cursing and using anger when there emotions would be better directed with positive emotions.

Allah hafez
Fatimeh

[The Persian Shah]

FatimehJ, I do not want to go into too much detail on this topic, as I have already made posts elsewhere, in their appropiate forums.

However, let me just clarify something: Cursing is a Dua. It literally just means to ask Allah [SWT] to withdraw His [SWT] mercy from the specified group/person. It is a part of Furu-e Deen (Tabarra). It is different from Saab (Abuse) - which is bad. We do not choose who to curse. In fact, cursing every Tom, Richard and Harry would probably prove to be more dentrimental to your own spiritual progress, rather beneficial. We only curse those who Allah [SWT], the Prophet [SAWS], or the Imams [AS] have commanded us to do so. Because, as you said, we do not know what goes on inside ones heart - but they certainly do. There is an abundance of ahadeeth on this matter also, lots of which I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find on this very forum, with a little effort.

If your heart houses the concept of Justice, then not only is there no room for Injustice in there, you must also detest the concept.
If your heart houses the love of the AhlulBayth [AS], then not only is there no room for the love of their enemies in there, but you also detest them.
If you send blessings and peace on the Ma'sumin [AS], then you can't you just hold a "neutral" stance on their enemies, you must also detest their counterparts, and instead of asking Allah [SWT] to shower them with his Mercy (Tawalla), you do the exact opposite, and ask Him [SWT] to withdraw His [SWT] mercy from them.

Furthermore, since the concept of cursing is rejected by them altogether, they also abstaining from reading Ziyarat-e Ashura - or parts of it. They believe the La'an in this Hadeeth-e Qudsi to be "Tahrif", which renders the Ziyarat in their eyes as "Da'if" (weak). This is the same for some parts of the Qur'an also, such as Surah Lahab, in which Abu Lahab [LA], the Uncle of the Seal of the Prophets [SAWS] is heavily condemned for what he used to do.

This is the reason I suggested not to get too close to the Sufi's. It is hard to tell what parts of their beliefs is innovation, and what parts are High and Noble Irfani concepts. If you like treading on the spiritual path, then just stick with the Arifs. I can't see what extra benefits the Sufi's bring you. Sufi'ism = Irfan + Innovations, or in some cases Sufi'ism = Innovations (See ahadeeth from the Imams [AS] on this matter).

Just read works from REAL SHI'A ARIF'S (note the three key words), such as any of those in my sig. In fact, on the very first page, in the Introduction of "Light Within Me", see what Allamah Tabataba'i has to say about the Ahl-e Tassawuf (Sufi'ism):

Quote

The Islamic esoterics known as Irfan or gnosis is sometimes associated with Tasawwuf or mysticism whose certain rites and rituals are repugnant to Islam. However Shi'aism considers Islamic acts of worship to be sufficient for gaining proximity to Allah.

http://www.al-islam.org/LWM/ Preface, Footnote 1

For this reason, there is no such thing as a "Shi'a Sufi", rather only a "Shi'a Arif".

Anyways, at the end of the day, 'tis your call sis. If you think you can filter out the filfth from the gold, without going down under yourself, then by all means go for it.

This relationship is just like the Sunni's to the Shi'as. For example, there are many good Sunni's where I live, who can read the Qur'an very well, observing all the rules, and paying attention to every minute detail. This is very good. I try my best to learn this from them (I'm actually currently being taught by a Sunni Sheikh). However, after they have attracted your attention to their good morals etc (or ascetism in the case of the Sufi's), that is when they start praising Yazid [LA] or Abdul Wahab (na'oudhu'billah). All for an attempt at trying to make you make the following link: Nice Sunni Guy Preaches Yazid [LA] => Yazid [LA] must be nice to. That is when I leave them (Note that this has actually happened to me before with another Sunni Sheikh). The Sufi's do something similar in making you believe in one of their lies. And all this is only one method of deception, there exists many hundreds others, most of which I am probably unaware of myself..

[FatimehJ]

thank you for your lengthy reply, but I am not querying whether 'to get too close to sufis or not'. My questioning at the moment is actually to enable me to move closer to shia Islam.

I realise there are many many sufi groups out there and even within groups there are varying sheikhs etc. I have been with the Naqshbandi tariqat for 8 years now and have only good experience. Their 'cursing' is limited to cursing generally I would say by cursing all those who hurt or insult Ahl ul Bayt, but this is different that taking a stance on naming individuals. Who are we to do that? Again I say, you or I are not in a position to judge who Allah has mercy on and who not and weigh their good deeds in their life against their bad deeds.

I can definitely curse upon those who insult the Prophet (s.a.w.s) and his family (a.s.) without specifying individuals. I can merely state this is a bad thing to do and ask Allah to forgive them or punish them as he see fit.

What about all those beautiful stories we have in Islam of our Prophet (s.a.w.s) and for example Imam Hossein (a.s.) showing so much kindness, forgiveness and patience and refraining from cursing. I like to think of these examples first.

And although I appreciate anyone offering me help and I am sure you have the best of intentions and believe you are trying to help me, it is not wise to advise people to stay away from groups they belong to and respect tremendously. Everyone has their own way of entering Islam and of following Islam. I feel so very honoured to have found the Naqshbandi tariqat. I feel blessed every day to have such a special guide as Sheikh Nazim. Only those who have had the fortune to meet him will understand what I am saying. He is more than just a scholar or an academic, his level of spirituality is extremely high. This tariqat is very traditional in its teachings - I do not believe it is based on innovation.

At the moment by the way, it is funny - nearly everyone I come across is using this word 'innovation' as if it is the flavour of the month. If you talk to sunnis about shia - they tell you to stay away as their religion is full of innovation! One sunni group says the same of another one. And now I hear it said about the tariqats. Of course shia say it about sunni too re. way of prayers e.g.

We all have to follow our hearts in the end and it is really really difficult for me at the moment, which is why I am spending so much time on this forum gathering information. I have no intention of leaving the tariqat I am part of but I believe I have already accepted that I am Shia rather than Sunni in my belief.

My worry I suppose is that the Shia won't accept me!!!! Hence all my questions!

Thank you for your time and patience
Allah hafez
Fatimeh

[Noon]

FatimehJ, on Mar 1 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

My worry I suppose is that the Shia won't accept me!!!! Hence all my questions!

Thank you for your time and patience
Allah hafez
Fatimeh

I have to admit I haven't read the entire thread, but i just wanted to comment on your last point.

Whatever you decided and i'm not telling you to believe one thing over another, the important thing to remember is that it doesn't matter whether or not people accept you.
You are who you are, and from my own experience (yes it may be limited) no one can tell you to believe.
You find your own way, you have to figure things out for yourself, and then once you have then the least of your worries should be aceptance, the acceptance you worry abotu should be fo yrou Amaal, but Allah (swt).
The faith and piety can't be given to you, you have to earn it, nor can the actual belief.

ws
fatema

[The Persian Shah]

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I realise there are many many sufi groups out there and even within groups there are varying sheikhs etc. I have been with the Naqshbandi tariqat for 8 years now and have only good experience. Their 'cursing' is limited to cursing generally I would say by cursing all those who hurt or insult Ahl ul Bayt, but this is different that taking a stance on naming individuals. Who are we to do that? Again I say, you or I are not in a position to judge who Allah has mercy on and who not and weigh their good deeds in their life against their bad deeds.

I can definitely curse upon those who insult the Prophet (s.a.w.s) and his family (a.s.) without specifying individuals.

Ok, that is fair enough - but what is the point ? When you curse the killer of Imam Hussein [AS], you're cursing Shimr [LA], and you know you are. Either way, whichever manner you decide to use, Shimr [LA] gets your La'an.

However, the interesting part is that another Murid (who knows Sheikh Nazem very well), informed me that the ENTIRE concept of La'an is wrong. On the other hand, you believe it is ok, but differ on the manner (which I respect btw)..

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I can merely state this is a bad thing to do and ask Allah to forgive them or punish them as he see fit.

Why don't you just do the same for the Ma'sumin [AS] as well then ? Just "ask Allah [SWT] to give them as he see's fit" ? Why do you ask Him [SWT] to shower them in His [SWT] Mercy and Blessings ?

Salutations (Salawat), and Curing (La'an) work on more levels than one can imagine. There is no doubt that Allah [SWT] will give everyone what they have earned, but then why do you send Salawat ? The matter of fact is both these Dua's have an impact on the heart..

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What about all those beautiful stories we have in Islam of our Prophet (s.a.w.s) and for example Imam Hossein (a.s.) showing so much kindness, forgiveness and patience and refraining from cursing. I like to think of these examples first.

That, my friend, is exactly what the early Sufi's did..  

Ignoring events and realities just because they don't fit with their own.

For example, they even claim that Iblees [LA] disobeyed Allah [SWT] because of the excess love he [LA] had for Him [SWT] ! Astagh'firullah !
(Oh btw, they don't consider it right to even curse Shaitan [LA] !)

You cannot ignore events. You cannot deny that the Battle of Karbala never happened. It is true that the actual enemies of the AhlulBayt [AS] is few, but the AhlulBayt [AS] are few in the same amount. For every part, there exists also the counterpart. Yazid [LA] for Imam Hussein [AS], Mu'awiyah [LA] for Imam Hasan [AS] etc, etc..

Besides all this, as I mentioned earlier, there is thousands, literally millions, of ahadeeth on this matter. The notion that the Infalliables [AS] didn't curse anyone is an absolute myth. I refer you to Ibn Quluwayh's book, Kamiluz Ziyarat for more on this.

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And although I appreciate anyone offering me help and I am sure you have the best of intentions and believe you are trying to help me, it is not wise to advise people to stay away from groups they belong to and respect tremendously.

My advice was only the same as that as a mother who advises her young to stay away from bad friends.

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At the moment by the way, it is funny - nearly everyone I come across is using this word 'innovation' as if it is the flavour of the month. If you talk to sunnis about shia - they tell you to stay away as their religion is full of innovation! One sunni group says the same of another one. And now I hear it said about the tariqats. Of course shia say it about sunni too re. way of prayers e.g.

That is true, but we are not concerned with mere accusations. It all comes down to what you can prove. What is really an innovation, and what is not.

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We all have to follow our hearts in the end and it is really really difficult for me at the moment, which is why I am spending so much time on this forum gathering information. I have no intention of leaving the tariqat I am part of but I believe I have already accepted that I am Shia rather than Sunni in my belief.

With all due respect Sis, can I ask how you consider yourself a Shia ? Naqshbandi order follows the Hanafiyyah madhab (a Sunni Madhab). If you are Naqshbandi, you are Hanafiyyah; and if you are Hanafiyyah, you are Sunni; and if you are Sunni, you have not accepted the Wilayah of Imam Ali [AS].

Anyways, I really wish the best for you, and I do not expect you to accept my words in their entirety, but rather go out and do more research. May Allah [SWT] guides us all to the Sirat-e Mustaqeem, and keep us firm on the path.

With Prayers For Your Success,
The Persian Shah

Edited by The Persian Shah, 01 March 2008 - 11:55 AM.

[FatimehJ]

"With all due respect Sis, can I ask how you consider yourself a Shia ? Naqshbandi order follows the Hanafiyyah madhab (a Sunni Madhab). If you are Naqshbandi, you are Hanafiyyah; and if you are Hanafiyyah, you are Sunni; and if you are Sunni, you have not accepted the Wilayah of Imam Ali [AS]."


Naqshbandi consists predominantly of Sunni Hanafi but also welcomes Moslems from other groups too.

This was my fear - people finger pointing!!!!


I was not born into a Moslem family of a particular group. I chose to follow Shia Islam and I chose to follow a particular Sheikh who happens to be Naqshbandi.

I belief being in a tariqat transcends being Sunni or Shia -it is not a simple categorisation or box to put someone in.

So, basically are you saying I am not Shia. This is quite serious. I have taken Shahada so I do not believe anyone can tell me I am not a Moslem (though I have had that in the past too when I was younger).

I believe in and respect the Ahl ul Bait, I love Imam Ali and have a special connection with Imam Hossein.

I pray the Shia way.

I accept all the historical events in Islam the way Shia Moslems dol.

So what would you suggest - that I am sunni? I am sure they would tell me otherwise, with my beliefs and the way I pray.

Maybe the Naqshbandi will tell be I can't be part of their tariqat too as I am Shia (although I believe they would show more compassion and love than that)

Or should I just give up then and go back to the early days when I just told everyone to leave me alone "I am just Moslem".

I AM FINDING THIS EXTREMELY DISTRESSING

I don't know why I am putting myself through this - or maybe I do. I have prayed and prayed to Allah to help me develop spiritually. I believe He led me to Sheikh Nazim and I believe He is guiding me to remain firm as a Shia Moslem, although the majority of the tariqat are as you say sunni.

But, these are the sort of emotions I had to go through when I first reverted - people pulling me in all directions, and nothing I did was right.

Brother- many years ago I had a terrible situation. The man I was married to was a very good man, but not a Moslem. I do not want to go into my whole life story, but I did not know in all honesty that a Moslem woman was not allowed to marry a non-Moslem man. Anyway Allah guided me and we separated amicably years later and my current husband Alhamdulillah is a very good Moslem revert. BUT at that time so many so-called Moslems actually told me that I WAS NOT A MOSLEM because I was married to a non-Moslem.Whether you agree with the rights and wrongs of this is a different matter. My dilemma was that in my heart I was a Moslem and I prayed and did everything else a Moslem does, but I was being told I wasn't. Sheikh Nazim was the person who helped me out of this crisis and the first to assure me I WAS A MOSLEM.

My intentions have always been good and right now I only have the best intentions for being on this forum. I am not here to pass away time (I actually have so many other things I should be doing). If you only knew how much I have cried over this issue recently and how I feel. It is the same story all over again. Instead of being told I cannot be a Moslem I am getting the message I cannot be a Shia Moslem yet I believe so strongly I am. I also believe strongly I should stay with the Naqshbandi. I have my beliefs but my heart is large enough to hold respect for people who are Sunni by birth. Sheikh Nazim transcends these divisions. Maybe he has a role to play in bringing all Moslems back to believing sincerely from the heart without focussing on these divisions.......

For information: Sheikh Nazim traces his lineage to the 11th century Sufi Abdul Qadir Jilani and the 13th century mystic Jalaluddin Rumi. Ultimately he can trace his forefathers back to the Prophet and is thus a Seyed through Imam Hasan and Imam Hossein.

Allah hafez
Fatimeh

[The Persian Shah]

Wow, talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill

I never said you are not Shia, or a Muslim. That is a reality which remains only between yourself and the Almighty Allah [SWT]. I was just wondering how you considered yourself to be a Shia, when you are the murid of a Sunni Sheikh, who doesn't accept the Wilayah of the Imams [AS].

Also, I never said Sheikh Nazem wasn't a nice guy either. In fact, he is very nice. So really, my only advice to you is just be careful. For example, had the same Murid that told me about the cursing issue, told you also not to curse the killers of Imam Hussein [AS], I'm pretty sure you would have accepted straight off.

Anyways, I'm actually interested more about Sheikh Nazem. Is it possible I could ask you to share with us some of the experiences that you have had with him ?

[JawzofDETH]

Kismet110, on Feb 29 2008, 12:46 PM, said:

Ironically the Naqshbandi tariqaat traces it's lineage back to Abu Bakr whereas all the others trace it back to Imam Ali via Hz. Owais Qarni!

When I said the following to a sunni (sufi):

"Look, I am not going to argue against the sufi' silsilah, well except for Naqshbandi, because their chain is completely impossible, Abu Bakr -> Salman Farsi Al-Muhammadi -> Ali , is quite ridiculous!
Other than that I don't have a problem, but Sufi Tariqats aside, they didn't transmit or concentrate on fiqh and usool, which we did."

he replied as such:

"Silisla is not based on Imamate. It is based on methodology. Salman Al Farsi is the pioneer of the Naqsbandi silsila. He is a big contribution to it. His receiving authority or responsibility from Abu bakr does not mean that he believed that Abu Bakr was higher than Imam Ali . Abu Bakr in sunni works has good merits such as when he believed in the Prophethood without proof and when he gave all his wealth and even replaced his bottoms with needes in the path of Allah. There are many others.
It is agreed by all sufis that imam Ali is the master of Waliyah. There are hadiths from Ayesha where she says her father used to look at Ali all the time and when she inquired about this he told her that looking at Ali is an act of worship. So you can see by looking at Imam Ali Abu Bakr received faiz from him. Also in ghadeer both Abu Bakr and Umar congratulated Imam Ali .
Also, in sunni books Salman Farsi believed that Imam Ali is the highest after the Prophet. Now if you look at silisla chains in terms of imamate you will also seen a contradiction. Therefore, you cannot look at it this way. For example Qadiri Silisila skips Imam Hassan and goes to the 7 other imams. Then there is Shadaali silsila which goes to from Imam Ali then Imam Hassan then it does not go to Imam Hussain . Also BaYazid Bistami was Imam Jafar as Sadiq‘s(as) calipah but his chain does not have Imam Musa al Kazim . Can we then say oh he didn’t believe in the next imam ? No we can’t. In terms of imamate all sufi have agreed that the most exalted spiritual imams were the 12 imams. Then after them there are other spiritual status such as Ghous, Kutb, Abdaal, Abrar and others.. Also most silila masters also have dual chains. Like Shaykh Nazim Al Haqqani is a Qadiri and a Naqsbhandi combined. My own mashaykh has Khalipate in qadiri, chisti, and naqshbandi."

[macisaac]

/\  I think I'd prefer the simpler explanation.  People made it up.  Claiming long standing authority via bogus chains of transmitted authority is pretty commonplace in a number of religions.  One area they run into that really can get them into trouble is when a clearly unworthy title holder shows up.  This (depending on what's being claimed for the line) might raise questions as to the judgment and knowledge of his predecessor, and his, and so on, which were the line correct might raise questions about them all, or, calls into question whether there was ever such a line beginning where they claim it does or whether part of it was fabricated.

And saying that BaYazid Bistami was Imam Sadiq's khalifa is just absurd.  To then say that such a notion would not conflict with the Imamate of Imam Musa al-Kadhim doesn't make any sense.  Plus, look at the dates:

Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq (702-765 CE)
BaYazid Bistami (804-874 CE)

Even with some margin of error in the dating, it still doesn't work.

Edited by macisaac, 03 March 2008 - 11:53 AM.