17 replies to this topic

[UndercoverBrother]

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The Iranian government has intervened to try to stop the screening of a film in the Netherlands about the Koran.

The Iranians say that the film, by the Dutch member of parliament Geert Wilders, is offensive.

The Iranian justice minister, Gholam Hussein Elham, wrote to his Dutch counterpart, Ernst Hirsch Ballin, calling for a ban.

Mr Hussein Elham said freedom of speech should not be used as a cover for attacking moral and religious values.

'Freedom of expression'

Mr Wilders says his film will show the Muslim holy book is an inspiration for murder.

But the Iranian justice minister says it is an unnecessary attack on what Muslims regard as the holiest of things.

He said the motivation behind the film was satanic and urged the Dutch government to stop its screening.

Mr Wilders has already been advised that he may have to leave the country for his own safety.

But the government has so far refused to intervene, saying the issue is one of freedom of expression.

In 2004, the Dutch film director, Theo van Gogh, was killed by a Muslim extremist in an Amsterdam street after bringing out the film Submission.

It dealt with the issue of abused Muslim women and included scenes of nearly naked women with Koranic texts engraved on their bodies.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/7248629.stm

Salaam

Does freedom and pluralism really exist especially when in Holland you can be inprisoned for denying or discussing the 'facts' about the holocaust but a film insulting the core beleifs and principles of Islam is allowed and even cartoons disrespecting and attacking core tenets of Islamic beleif are allowed. Freedom and pluralism is just an illusion why is it people can be sentanced for inciting religious hatred and inciting terorism if freedom of speech really exists. So it means they are pulling the strings and they decide what we are allowed to say and what we are not, so its not freedom is it?

In Islam freedom of speech would be allowed meaning people would be able to voice their opinions on certain issues but when it comes to criticising Islam or disrespecting Prophets or Imams that would be not allowed so to put in sincerely Islam does not allow freedom of speech because we don't beleive anyone can say anything at anytime.

[Abu Hadi]

UndercoverBrother, on Feb 20 2008, 01:19 AM, said:

http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/7248629.stm

Salaam

Does freedom and pluralism really exist especially when in Holland you can be inprisoned for denying or discussing the 'facts' about the holocaust but a film insulting the core beleifs and principles of Islam is allowed and even cartoons disrespecting and attacking core tenets of Islamic beleif are allowed. Freedom and pluralism is just an illusion why is it people can be sentanced for inciting religious hatred and inciting terorism if freedom of speech really exists. So it means they are pulling the strings and they decide what we are allowed to say and what we are not, so its not freedom is it?

In Islam freedom of speech would be allowed meaning people would be able to voice their opinions on certain issues but when it comes to criticising Islam or disrespecting Prophets or Imams that would be not allowed so to put in sincerely Islam does not allow freedom of speech because we don't beleive anyone can say anything at anytime.

Absolute freedom of speech does not exist anywhere in the world. Every country allows some speech and disallows others.

For instance, where I live, in the United States, there are many rules prohibiting certain speech.
You are not allowed to call for the violent overthrow of the government, you are not allowed to say something which may cause death and injury of people (yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre when there is no fire, for example), you are not allowed to say you are going to assasinate the president,
you are not allowed to broadcast false charges against someone (libel and slander), etc.

So I agree with these as they are laws to ensure that peace and tranquility in society is maintained, while at the same time allowing people to voice their opinions on most issues. The Dutch government is very well aware that if this film is released, it will cause chaos and destrution of life and property in many forms. Why they allow these sorts of 'films' to be released continues to amaze me. It is not doing them any good. It seems that there is a very strong anti-Islamic element that has taken control of the government of Denmark. Their govenment is getting a bad reputation all over the world for this. It seems like facism is re-emerging in Denmark, after being dormant for 60 years.

Edited by Abu Hadi, 20 February 2008 - 07:17 AM.

[Haji 2003]

I agree with all of the points made about freedom of speech, which should not allow insulting speech etc.

The problem is, as another current thread shows, Muslims may be seen to be rather quick to give/take offence:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...4941185&hl=

And if there is physical violence between members of the same sect, that makes it even less likely that non-Muslims will take grievances seriously.

[Reepicheep]

UndercoverBrother wrote: Iranians Urge Dutch To Ban Film, they should attack instead!

I'm curious to know what you mean by the phrase "they should attack instead".

Are you saying that, if this film is shown, then Iran should declare war on Holland?

[koroigetsuga]

UndercoverBrother, on Feb 20 2008, 01:19 AM, said:

In Islam freedom of speech would be allowed meaning people would be able to voice their opinions on certain issues but when it comes to criticising Islam or disrespecting Prophets or Imams that would be not allowed so to put in sincerely Islam does not allow freedom of speech because we don't beleive anyone can say anything at anytime.

I disagree. There are ample examples of the prophet debating and allowing various discourses during his time.

Also freedom of speech is in the Quran. Look up the ever so famous ayat, "there is no compulsion in religion"

However what the Danish are doing is not freedom of speech, its freedom of slander. They are not debating islam, which I would have no problem with. They are printing a very offensive cartoon. As you said, they would never allow similar freedoms when it came to Nazi propaganda, or printing swastikas in their newspapers.

[Marbles]

UndercoverBrother, on Feb 20 2008, 06:19 AM, said:

http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/7248629.stm

Salaam

Does freedom and pluralism really exist especially when in Holland you can be inprisoned for denying or discussing the 'facts' about the holocaust but a film insulting the core beleifs and principles of Islam is allowed and even cartoons disrespecting and attacking core tenets of Islamic beleif are allowed. Freedom and pluralism is just an illusion So it means they are pulling the strings and they decide what we are allowed to say and what we are not, so its not freedom is it?

They are misusing the freedom of expression. They don't understand the sensitiveness of issues relating to Islam. They have the right to criticise Islam and its Prophet with academic integrity but insulting and caricaturing is utterly disgusting. Danish cartoons and the film by Theo van Gogh was more of an insult than criticism. I don't know how insulting the new film is but I should also mention one thing - The Muslim reaction on cartoons and film was out of proportion and very childish.

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In Islam freedom of speech would be allowed meaning people would be able to voice their opinions on certain issues but when it comes to criticising Islam or disrespecting Prophets or Imams that would be not allowed so to put in sincerely Islam does not allow freedom of speech because .

When Islam is the way of life spanning over each and every aspect of human affairs and where you have an Islamic government with a revered leader who guides the laity in every matter, do you think there would be any "certain issues" left on which "people would be able to voice their opinions..."?

And thanks you've made it clear in the following line that you hold that Islam does not allow freedom of speech (and action). I should also point out that Islam also doesn't allow coercing. What happened to those oft-repeated 'no compulsion in religion' and 'to you yours and to me mine'?

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why is it people can be sentanced for inciting religious hatred and inciting terorism if freedom of speech really exists.

Has already been dealt with. Here it is: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1594984

Quote

we don't beleive anyone can say anything at anytime

No one in the whole world with a right frame of mind believes in it. I again paste the link here in case you didn't click on the previous one:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1594984

[mo87_11014]

sallam
to hear more about islam and the freedom of expression check www.shialectures.net
ws

[Zeynab-europe]

Nobody has seen the freaking film, nobody really knows whether it is actually real, and everyone seems to be losing their mind over what it might possibly be or cause. What are you so upset about? You are just reacting just as he hopes. Please don't give our pitiful Mozart this honor. Just ignore the moron and his stupid would-be movie.

[noorulhuda]

Zeynab-europe, on Feb 20 2008, 08:43 PM, said:

Nobody has seen the freaking film, nobody really knows whether it is actually real, and everyone seems to be losing their mind over what it might possibly be or cause. What are you so upset about? You are just reacting just as he hopes. Please don't give our pitiful Mozart this honor. Just ignore the moron and his stupid would-be movie.

I see what you are saying but the chances are that if/when the film is released, and if it is as controversial as the Iranians are saying, then the last thing the Muslims will do is 'ignore the moron'. I think that it is good that the Muslims react, but the problem has been in the way that we react. By staying quiet, we would not make it clear to the West that we are offended by such works. I feel like the Christians in Britain have become indifferent to the mockeries made about Christianity because it is now 'normal' in British media to joke about the faith. Regarding Islam however, our sensitivity to what some have considered to be minor incidents has meant that the media are not as willing to mock the intracacies of our faith; instead they mock the followers of Islam.

Reaction is good, but ONLY if it is done appropriately. If the west 'preach' democracy, then we approach them by the same means, which is what the Iranian Justice minister is doing by speaking on political terms with the Dutch Justice minister about the film.

[Jalal]

UndercoverBrother, on Feb 20 2008, 01:19 AM, said:

http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/7248629.stm

Salaam

Does freedom and pluralism really exist especially when in Holland you can be inprisoned for denying or discussing the 'facts' about the holocaust but a film insulting the core beleifs and principles of Islam is allowed and even cartoons disrespecting and attacking core tenets of Islamic beleif are allowed. Freedom and pluralism is just an illusion why is it people can be sentanced for inciting religious hatred and inciting terorism if freedom of speech really exists. So it means they are pulling the strings and they decide what we are allowed to say and what we are not, so its not freedom is it?

In Islam freedom of speech would be allowed meaning people would be able to voice their opinions on certain issues but when it comes to criticising Islam or disrespecting Prophets or Imams that would be not allowed so to put in sincerely Islam does not allow freedom of speech because we don't beleive anyone can say anything at anytime.

Well, instead of whining, why don't you make a documentary refuting what was raised on the film - that is the best revenge. Why go about rioting and proving every possible negative stereotype when a educated critique of the film in terms of a point by point refuting of themes in the movie, or a creation of a counter film pointing out inaccuracies.

[Marbles]

Jalal, on Feb 22 2008, 03:30 AM, said:

Well, instead of whining, why don't you make a documentary refuting what was raised on the film - that is the best revenge. Why go about rioting and proving every possible negative stereotype when a educated critique of the film in terms of a point by point refuting of themes in the movie, or a creation of a counter film pointing out inaccuracies.

You will alwyas find these kind of people rioting, burning and creating nuisance and mayhem. It is because they have no way to vent out their accumulated frustrations. I don't blame them altogether. Those who are above them have the responsibility . They don't understand that the Frankenstein's Monster they have created will swallow their own fellow Muslims.

[bkt900]

Jibran Haider, on Feb 22 2008, 04:00 PM, said:

You will alwyas find these kind of people rioting, burning and creating nuisance and mayhem. It is because they have no way to vent out their accumulated frustrations. I don't blame them altogether. Those who are above them have the responsibility . They don't understand that the Frankenstein's Monster they have created will swallow their own fellow Muslims.

Morons such as this are falling for the trap set by the Dutch. They want the Muslims to react like a bunch of crazed maniacs, so they can point and say "oh, look, Islam is bad!". Muslims need to be a lot smarter when they react to this garbage. We can't stoop down to the level of the Westerners. These insults against Islam need to be confronted in an intelligent, civilized manner, not by rioting and screaming.

[Jalal]

Jibran Haider, on Feb 22 2008, 04:00 PM, said:

You will alwyas find these kind of people rioting, burning and creating nuisance and mayhem. It is because they have no way to vent out their accumulated frustrations. I don't blame them altogether. Those who are above them have the responsibility . They don't understand that the Frankenstein's Monster they have created will swallow their own fellow Muslims.

Goodness, he looks like some sort of guy high on drugs or caffeine.

I find it funny how when Jesus is defaced, we don't see a single thing said by Muslims - I thought as Muslims we were meant to revere all prophets?

As for the defacement of Muhammad in regards to the Danish cartoons - did anyone ever sit back for a second and think about this for a second? assess it based on the motivation behind it - besides assuming it is a grand unified Zionist/Christian conspiracy to destroy Islam? with all the rioting, its ironic they proved the cartoon correct.

The whole point of a cartoon is meant to offend people, its meant to jolt a person from their malaise and get them thinking about things. Its an in your face, confrontational way of bringing controversial subjects to the forefront of the general public.

I can't work out why people here think that EVERYTHING that occurs is some sort of Zionist/Christian conspiracy theory to wipe out Muslims. The crusades are over, its time for Muslims to realise this is 2008, not the middle ages.

[Marbles]

Jalal, on Feb 23 2008, 02:02 AM, said:

I can't work out why people here think that EVERYTHING that occurs is some sort of Zionist/Christian conspiracy theory to wipe out Muslims. The crusades are over, its time for Muslims to realise this is 2008, not the middle ages.

I wonder why Muslims think like this. US or West is not on Crusades going around the world attacking 'Islam' and 'Muslims.' If it had been true, they would have attacked Saudia occupied Arabia, rest of the Middle East, Egypt etc. The afore-mentioned countries are US' best friends. American wars are the result of the quest to save US interests - how sinister they might be and to do it in any possible way be it legal or illegal - and to sustain and enforce its so-called 'free market democracy' so that she (US) can steal as much of the third world's wealth as they possibly can.

I see the same idiocy when nutters argue against pornography in the West. Deplorable & disgusting as it is no doubt, Muslims have been seen arguing that West have created these CDs/DVDs & websites and spread this filth to demoralise Muslims! And you couldn't possibly make that upppp. . .

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I find it funny how when Jesus is defaced, we don't see a single thing said by Muslims - I thought as Muslims we were meant to revere all prophets?.

You stole my thoughts. It's the least discussed issue.

[Jalal]

Jibran Haider, on Feb 22 2008, 09:54 PM, said:

I wonder why Muslims think like this. US or West is not on Crusades going around the world attacking 'Islam' and 'Muslims.' If it had been true, they would have attacked Saudia occupied Arabia, rest of the Middle East, Egypt etc. The afore-mentioned countries are US' best friends. American wars are the result of the quest to save US interests - how sinister they might be and to do it in any possible way be it legal or illegal - and to sustain and enforce its so-called 'free market democracy' so that she (US) can steal as much of the third world's wealth as they possibly can.

Or more cynically, it is virtually a subsidy to big business - invade a country, obtain resources cheaply for those businesses, and thus, give them a competitive advantage over another country. Its crony capitalism at its worst. If only the Americans realised what was done in their name. More people are waking up, but most would rather live in a land of sunshine, lolly pops and fox news telling them that all is well on war on terror - ignoring the fact that terrorism could be stopped without the use of military force (which is actually a self defeating cycle).

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I see the same idiocy when nutters argue against pornography in the West. Deplorable & disgusting as it is no doubt, Muslims have been seen arguing that West have created these CDs/DVDs & websites and spread this filth to demoralise Muslims! And you couldn't possibly make that upppp. . .

lol, reminds me of those who are most against gay marriage are caught soliciting sex in toilets, picking up sex from rent boys or have been married half a dozen times.

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You stole my thoughts. It's the least discussed issue.

Remember the virgin in a condom - Mary. Not a single word from the Muslim community about that either. Mary is revered as the moth of the prophet Jesus, not a single word was said then either.

[bkt900]

I will not deny the great hypocrisy within the Muslim community when it comes to defending the Prophets . It doesn't matter which Prophet gets slandered, we as Muslims should be the first ones out there to defend them all.

Edited by bkt900, 23 February 2008 - 01:10 AM.

[Jalal]

bkt900, on Feb 23 2008, 01:09 AM, said:

I will not deny the great hypocrisy within the Muslim community when it comes to defending the Prophets . It doesn't matter which Prophet gets slandered, we as Muslims should be the first ones out there to defend them all.

But for some Muslim's it might mean dialogue with Christians or worse, Jews SHOCK! HORROR!

What next? mutual respect?! - oh, the world is coming to an end!

[Iqra]

bkt900, on Feb 22 2008, 11:28 PM, said:

Morons such as this are falling for the trap set by the Dutch. They want the Muslims to react like a bunch of crazed maniacs, so they can point and say "oh, look, Islam is bad!". Muslims need to be a lot smarter when they react to this garbage. We can't stoop down to the level of the Westerners. These insults against Islam need to be confronted in an intelligent, civilized manner, not by rioting and screaming.

Not to disagree, but when Dutch film-makers produce material that is clearly unintelligent, uncivilised and the cinematic rant from an ultra-secular extremist - one can only expect a reaction in similar fashion. The reaction may be stupid, but the action of making the film was hardly intelligent and dialectic in the first place.