16 replies to this topic

[Abdullah Mohammad]

I have important questions about Jafari and Ismaili,
1. What are the main differences between Jafari and Ismaili?
2. Is it true that Jafaris follow a more legal and law based approach, while Ismailis are more mystical?
3. Do all Ismailis follow the Aga Khan?
4. What is Mustaali?
5. Is Mohammad BurhanUddin an Imam to the Mustaali?

[mansab.jafri]

Abdullah Mohammad, on Dec 17 2007, 06:47 PM, said:

I have important questions about Jafari and Ismaili,
1. What are the main differences between Jafari and Ismaili?
2. Is it true that Jafaris follow a more legal and law based approach, while Ismailis are more mystical?
3. Do all Ismailis follow the Aga Khan?
4. What is Mustaali?
5. Is Mohammad BurhanUddin an Imam to the Mustaali?

1.  We follow the 12 Imams of the Ahlul'bayt, Ismailis created their own line and they reject all Imams of the Ahlul'bayt after Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (a.s.).
2.  Ja'faris follow the Sunnah of Rasoolullah, Ismailis believe that their Imams know the esoterics of the religion, and that the true essence in the religion is not based on following the rituals as Rasoolullah did, but by applying Islam in whatever context the current world calls for...  for this reason, they do not believe in Hijab or Wudhu, unfortunately.  They also have their own way of Salaah, unfortunately.
3.  I dunno, but all the Ismailis I know follow Aga Khan... but this might not be the general rule.
4.  I dunno.
5.  I dunno.

Ismailis give a lot of ammo to the Sunnis to throw at us, because they call themselves "Shi'a", even though the Ithna'Ashari do not consider them to be Shi'a.


- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri, 17 December 2007 - 08:00 PM.

[Akbar673]

Abdullah Mohammad, on Dec 17 2007, 05:47 PM, said:

I have important questions about Jafari and Ismaili,
1. What are the main differences between Jafari and Ismaili?
2. Is it true that Jafaris follow a more legal and law based approach, while Ismailis are more mystical?
3. Do all Ismailis follow the Aga Khan?
4. What is Mustaali?
5. Is Mohammad BurhanUddin an Imam to the Mustaali?

In regard to question #3 it is my understanding that there are two types of Ismailis. The first kind is the one that follows Ismail (who was the son of Imam Jafar Sadiq ). I believe they are called Bohra Ismaili. They are known as 6ers, as opposed to Ithna Asheri who are 12ers.

The second group is called Aga Khani Ismailis. It is my understanding that their Imam is the Aga Khan.

I may be wrong with my info.

[macisaac]

Abdullah Mohammad, on Dec 17 2007, 06:47 PM, said:

I have important questions about Jafari and Ismaili,
1. What are the main differences between Jafari and Ismaili?
2. Is it true that Jafaris follow a more legal and law based approach, while Ismailis are more mystical?
3. Do all Ismailis follow the Aga Khan?
4. What is Mustaali?
5. Is Mohammad BurhanUddin an Imam to the Mustaali?

The main, core difference is in the line of Imams we follow.  The Imamis of course believe in the twelve holy Imams , each one designated by their predecessor.  The Ismailis on the other hand follow  a different course.  They go:

Imam `Ali
Imam Husayn (they do not consider Imam Hasan to be an Imam)
Imam `Ali ibn al-Husayn
Imam Muhammad ibn `Ali
Imam Ja`far ibn Muhammad

They then believe that Ismail ibn Ja`far (who died before his father) was the next Imam.  This is a large topic, though rest assured that the rightful _designated_ Imam after Imam as-Sadiq was in fact Imam Musa al-Kadhim .

After `Ismail (about whom they've held different opinions regarding did he really die before his father or was it faked), they believe the next Imam was Muhammad ibn Ismail, whom they identify as the seventh Imam and the Qaim.  After him, the Mustalis and Nizaris believe in a series of following Imams, starting they say with al-Wafi Ahmad ibn Muhammad, who were essentially underground and operating in secret (they have a list of names, but not much appears known about them).  Then, a man called Said ibn Husayn, but referred to as  Ë¤Abdullāh al-MahdÄ« Billah rose up in North Africa, claiming descent from this line and leading to the foundation of the Fatimid dynasty in Egypt, with the suceeding rulers of which the Ismailis identify as their Imams.  The history of Fatimids is a topic onto itself (during which time for instance you have the rule of al-Hakim bi Amrillah, who was likely insane and after whose assassination (possibly arranged by his sister) the Druze split off forming their own religion), but skip ahead to the death of Ma'ad al-Mustansir Billah, and this is where the Nizari/Musta`li split occurs.  Nizar was al-Muntasir's oldest son, and likely designant, however the vizier, al-Malik al-Afdal, decided to put the child al-Mustali on the throne instead, and essentially rule behind him.  Nizar was imprisoned, and his son may have fled to the fortress of Alamut.

The Mustali branch in turn eventually split  away, claiming that Musta`li son and next Fatimid ruler, al-Amir, himself had a son who went into ghayba (known as at-Tayyib).  From him, they believe there is a continous line of suceeding Imams, but they don't know who they are (each they say is in ghayba).  In its place, they follow a line of Da`i al-Mutlaq, who rules over the community in stead of an Imam.  This is who Burhan ad-Deen comes in, as Da`i of the Dawoodi Bohra branch of the Mustalis.  There are whoever other lines of Da`is in rival Mustali sects that claim they are the true one instead (such as the Sulaymaniyyas).

The Nizari branch leads up to todays Agha Khanis.  The details of their history is quite long, but a key event there is what was known as the Qiyamat.  That is, they believe that in 1164, their then Imam, Hasan II, declared that the great resurrection had occured, and that they were no longer obliged to follow Islamic Shari`a.  Skip ahead through the centuries to today, their so-called Imam is KarÄ«m al-HussainÄ«.  This current family is pretty well known for their rich European playboy lifestyles, drinking, partying, gambling, etc.

In terms of fiqh, obviously the Nizaris don't hold much in that way, interpreting much of the traditional obligations to be symbolic such as hajj meaning to visit their Imam, or replaced such as not saying the five salat but instead doing a du`a three times a day.  Mind you, this symbolic re-interpretation doesn't seem to apply to paying their taxes, which are sent to their Agha Khan.  

The Mustalis are more like the various madhahib in this sense, but obedience is very much centered around following their Da`i.  I've been told my a former Bohra (who now is an Imami and who studied in Qum), that on average Bohras tend to be ignorant of their own religion, even knowing that the Da`i is a very corrupt man, but still continuing to identify as Dawoodi Bohras none the less.

Edited by macisaac, 18 December 2007 - 10:29 AM.

[A true Sunni]

salaam,

2 types of Ismailis

Agha Khanis

and those commonly called Bohras from the Indian subcontinent.

The Bohras practices and rituals are very similar to the Ithna Asherias wih respect to Moharram and salaat etc.

The Ismailis split into 2 over a dispute between two brothers. One line eventually evolved into the present day Ismailis

The second line evolved into the present day Bohras and in fact the Druze also split off from this group .

Not sure of the proper name for the Bohra Ismaili branch but Bohras are from the gujarat area of India
salaam

salaam

[BabyBeaverIsAKit]

I'm going to add something to the responses for question number 1. The Ismailis, as a consequence of following the imam that they do, have very different practices. I'm pretty sure they don't do the same prayers that we do, although you may want to verify this. They can dance in front of the opposite gender and they don't wear hijab.

[A true Sunni]

BabyBeaverIsAKit, on Dec 18 2007, 12:17 PM, said:

I'm going to add something to the responses for question number 1. The Ismailis, as a consequence of following the imam that they do, have very different practices. I'm pretty sure they don't do the same prayers that we do, although you may want to verify this. They can dance in front of the opposite gender and they don't wear hijab.

by Imiailis, you mean Agha Khanis because technically the other groups ie. Bohras are also Ismailis

[sisachica1]

salam aleikom...

so those ismailis...the Mustali can be those from the Najran area?

salam aleikom wr wb..

so those from Najran aread can be the Mustali islailis?

[macisaac]

sisachica1, on Mar 7 2008, 04:38 PM, said:

salam aleikom...

so those ismailis...the Mustali can be those from the Najran area?

salam aleikom wr wb..

so those from Najran aread can be the Mustali islailis?

wa `alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

The Isma`ilis from Najran are apparently Sulaymani Musta`li Isma`ilis.  There was apparently a succession dispute after the death of their 26th "Dai-e-Mutlaq" Daud bin Ajabshah.  The Sulaymanis believe that his successor was Sulayman bin Hasan whereas the Dawoodis believe it was Daud Burhanuddin Qutub Shah.

[sisachica1]

macisaac, on Mar 8 2008, 01:19 AM, said:

wa `alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

The Isma`ilis from Najran are apparently Sulaymani Musta`li Isma`ilis.  There was apparently a succession dispute after the death of their 26th "Dai-e-Mutlaq" Daud bin Ajabshah.  The Sulaymanis believe that his successor was Sulayman bin Hasan whereas the Dawoodis believe it was Daud Burhanuddin Qutub Shah.

jazzak Allah kheir for ur reply..
and who is their leader nowadays?
whats the meaning of the word Dai?

[macisaac]

sisachica1, on Mar 8 2008, 07:58 AM, said:

jazzak Allah kheir for ur reply..
and who is their leader nowadays?
whats the meaning of the word Dai?

Apparently it's al-Fakhri Abdullah bin Mohammed al-Makrami, their 52nd da`i.  I honestly don't know much about them though, they are a very small sect.

As to the Da`i, you find the term Da`wat having been used in reference to the Fatimid rule.  Missionaries where sent out to spread their message, with a complex hierarchy of positions.  Nowadays, the Da`i al-Mutlaq refers to the heads of the different Musta`li sects, who they believe to now be standing in place of their Imams, the last they recognize as having been at-Tayyib who they believe was the young son of Al-Amir Bi-Ahkamillah, their 20th Imam.  They think he went into hiding however, and do not recognize as Imams the following Fatimid rulers afterwards.  I'm unclear here, but from I understand they don't actually believe that at-Tayyib is still alive, rather they believe that he would had a son who succeeded him, and that son a son succeeding him, etc., but that all of them have been in ghayba.  It appears they do not know who any of these supposed individuals are.  In their place, they instead follow a line of absolute Da`is who acts as the head of their lines in place of an Imam.  The lines of Da`is have split up however, with different lines claiming to be authorities, hence the Najran Isma`ilis being "Sulaymanis" rather than the more numerous Dawoodi Bohras (who themselves split into variant lines).

[sisachica1]

jazzak Allah kheir for ur answer...its very interesting though...

well, whats ghayba?

[Adnan Azizuddin]

mansab.jafri, on Dec 18 2007, 12:59 AM, said:

1.  We follow the 12 Imams of the Ahlul'bayt, Ismailis created their own line and they reject all Imams of the Ahlul'bayt after Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (a.s.).
2.  Ja'faris follow the Sunnah of Rasoolullah, Ismailis believe that their Imams know the esoterics of the religion, and that the true essence in the religion is not based on following the rituals as Rasoolullah did, but by applying Islam in whatever context the current world calls for...  for this reason, they do not believe in Hijab or Wudhu, unfortunately.  They also have their own way of Salaah, unfortunately.
3.  I dunno, but all the Ismailis I know follow Aga Khan... but this might not be the general rule.
4.  I dunno.
5.  I dunno.

Ismailis give a lot of ammo to the Sunnis to throw at us, because they call themselves "Shi'a", even though the Ithna'Ashari do not consider them to be Shi'a.


- Mansab

You have to read and undrstand HISTORY OF ISLAM your self instead of asking questions ?
any one  can only reply your question with his his understandig and bleives, but the right answer you are seeking will be only found in history books,
it ais far better to look for the answers from right source.
The answer was given to you about No 1. was wrong, the word Jafaris dos not apply only to Shi'a Ithna'Ashari, all the Shia's are those who upheald the Imammat of ALI, and there are many groups of Shia'a, Ismailis are also Shia's as they also believe in Imammat of ALI, the word Ismaili was given to them because they the Imammat of Ismail the elder son of Jafar e Sadiq the sixth Imam instead of of Musa Raza the minor son, as I said before you have to read history to know the true from false ?
From there on Shia Itha'Ashari and Ismaili start two deffrent paths, now Imailis also are in two groups they are not all of them are Nazaris ( Aga Khani) and Mustalis, they beleive in all the sharia laws and fundamantles, the Mustalis do namaaz, rooza, zakat, haj, etc.

sisachica1, on Mar 8 2008, 06:28 PM, said:

jazzak Allah kheir for ur answer...its very interesting though...

well, whats ghayba?

The word "ghayba" means hiddin, out of shight.

[habib e najjaar]

ghayba= occultation in the context in which it is used.
from the word ghaaib (not present)

[toocoool66]

ismailis are also shias as the word shia is used for the one who accepts hazrat ali as his imam.ismailis are the 2nd largest sub group after ithna ashris in shia community.they are mainly divided into two though druze are also classified with them.

1.nizari bohras....who believe that nizar was the right successor to his father mustansir,this group is headed by prince karim agha khan.

2.mustalli bohras....who consider al mustali as the right successor to mustansir.they were divided into two

   1.tayyabi
   2.hafizi

    but now hafizi are not there all mustalli bohras are tayyabi.however there was again a split in the hafizi and result was sulamani and dawoodi bohras.former is more concentrated in yemen and saudi arabia whereas later in pakistan and india.they do have many other sub groups like alevi bohras .however the main are the two mentioned earlier


so the question that aga khan is followed by all ismalias is not correct as he is followed by nizaris.

syed burhanuddin is followed by dawoodi bohras.

syed tayyab ziauddin is followed by alevi bohras.

[rzairul]

Abdullah Mohammad, on Dec 18 2007, 06:47 AM, said:

I have important questions about Jafari and Ismaili,
1. What are the main differences between Jafari and Ismaili?
2. Is it true that Jafaris follow a more legal and law based approach, while Ismailis are more mystical?
3. Do all Ismailis follow the Aga Khan?
4. What is Mustaali?
5. Is Mohammad BurhanUddin an Imam to the Mustaali?

I suggest that you read wikipedia for this...it's quite complete in covering the Ismaili topic

[Ali Huzaifa]

Salaam,

well yes i must say describing about islamili shia is not easy,and i would like that people read and understand about sects of islam from authentic sources rather then asking to each other and spreading humours about different islamic sects,

according to my knowledge who ever belives in imam ALI(A.S) after Muhammed(saw),must be respected and shud be given equal oppurtunity to call him/her self shiyate ALI,i really dont agree with the comment that ismaili shia specially mustali do not pray or give zakaat,infact what i have found is they obey one leader as it is a Sunnah of Muhammed(saw) and pray with jamaat and give zakaat, about hijaab i have found dawoodi bohraas are most particular and indeed there woman follows all necessary ahkaam of shriyate Muhammed(saw).I do agree that an average Bohra is ignorant about there own faith but when it comes to love for ahlul bayt they unite and stand like a strong wall against any kind of misbehaviour done against name of ahlul bayt,they celebrates Muharram with so much respect and we can find thousand of dawoodi bohra gathering to listen majlise Hussain(A.S) through the world,infact this did of dawoodi bohra makes sunni muslims so jeoulus about SHIA MUSLIMS,

most important fact i would like to comment is as i have read some chatter called dawoodi bohra dai as a curropt,i would like to ask him do you know who has built Present zarih of Imam Hussain(A.s) in karbala?

this Zarih is built by syedna Muhammed Burhanuddin(tus) , he is 99 years old but still when u will see his passion For imam Hussain it looks like an miracle,may Allah bless Dai of imam uz zamaan till QAYAMAAH,

and i will suggest please dont comment untill you donno details about a particular sect or religion coz it can cause a fitnah and this is the worst thing done by a muslim,do not comment just by hearing it from any xyz guy...


in the words of Muhammed Burhanuddin(tus)

YA Allah DONT MAKE MOMIN CRY FOR ANY THING IN THIS WORLD BUT JUST FOR IMAM HUSSAIN(A.S)