112 replies to this topic

[sunlight]

and how should she go on telling him about her past? u think she should tell him?
or not tell him at all? or tell him when they r married? or tell him now?

tnx
salams

[ForeverMM]

In order for a marriage to be valid between a man and a woman they both need to fully disclose any information that would result the other individual to have a change of heart.  

Therefore, a woman is required to disclose whether or not she is a virgen to her husband prior to marriage as a man should disclose to the woman, but most importantly because a man will be aware of the woman's lack of virginity the first night and can cause possible problems.  It is best to enter marriage with full knowledge and an open heart with no secrets.

As for how should she tell him, I don't know such a subject is hard for me to express my opinions on...since I have no experience on the matter.

[arshiraza]

sunlight, on Nov 30 2007, 07:18 AM, said:

and how should she go on telling him about her past? u think she should tell him?
or not tell him at all? or tell him when they r married? or tell him now?

tnx
salams

Well, i think she shld not tell him anythng,i am sure that was her past n this person is her present n future.
Why simply ruin the present n the future for the past .....which will never come back

[Peace]

ws


Forever - where are your rulings that she HAS to disclose in order for a marriage to be valid.

To sunlight - I posted before in this thread then deleted it - because I feel the girl needs to talk to a knowledgeable sister about this - one who is well versed in the fiqh - as I am not I cannot offer you what the correct islamic advise is. All I really want to say is a) bear in mind he could spread it and tell the dad/other relatives, ruin the girls reputation and the girl could be in a situation where no1 will offer for her because of this. Also realise a lot of men ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING of their future wives having had sex with another man - even the ones who are nice and kind on the outside, so the chances of a person accepting it and going ahead with a marriage are not very good or that if the girl was in a  marriage, staying married. Also he could bring this up and throw it in the girls face or use this information as a blackmailing tool to rule the girl and act as he wants to act ie be a serial muta - er. I am being very cynical but just wanted to point these things out in advance.

Edited by Peace, 30 November 2007 - 11:38 AM.

[mmm]

Peace, on Nov 30 2007, 11:36 AM, said:

ws


Forever - where are your rulings that she HAS to disclose in order for a marriage to be valid.

To sunlight - I posted before in this thread then deleted it - because I feel the girl needs to talk to a knowledgeable sister about this - one who is well versed in the fiqh - as I am not I cannot offer you what the correct islamic advise is. All I really want to say is a) bear in mind he could spread it and tell the dad/other relatives, ruin the girls reputation and the girl could be in a situation where no1 will offer for her because of this. Also realise a lot of men ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING of their future wives having had sex with another man - even the ones who are nice and kind on the outside, so the chances of a person accepting it and going ahead with a marriage are not very good or that if the girl was in a  marriage, staying married. Also he could bring this up and throw it in the girls face or use this information as a blackmailing tool to rule the girl and act as he wants to act ie be a serial muta - er. I am being very cynical but just wanted to point these things out in advance.

http://www.shiachat....showtopic=53069

[jund_el_Mahdi]

Well, personally I would be furious if I had to find something out about my wife instead of herself telling it to me...there should'nt be ANYTHING held between a husband and wife.

[Maryaam]

jund_el_mahdi, on Nov 30 2007, 09:48 AM, said:

Well, personally I would be furious if I had to find something out about my wife instead of herself telling it to me...there should'nt be ANYTHING held between a husband and wife.

I think all should be disclosed - both from the husband and from the wife.  Anything can be worked out if there is honesty and good intention.

[waiting]

Quote

In order for a marriage to be valid between a man and a woman they both need to fully disclose any information that would result the other individual to have a change of heart.

Please don't make things up.

[Peace]

bliss - People dont always get caught tho! I dont get how they dont

[eThErEaL]

blissful223, on Nov 30 2007, 01:32 PM, said:

yes yes privacy is good and all that, but isnt the all-important point which seems to be missed

the fact that on your wedding night

he's gonna find out anyway!


wouldnt it be better to explain yourself earlier than be faced with a divorce one day after?  girl I dont know how you think you could get away with not telling him about this one, unless he's about 90 or mentally retarded...

you know how many women go for the "cover-it-up-surgery". its so common especially in arab countries.  not a rarity!

[ForeverMM]

Peace, on Nov 30 2007, 11:36 AM, said:

ws


Forever - where are your rulings that she HAS to disclose in order for a marriage to be valid.

Gladly point to why she has to:

Quote

Conditions for the Marriage Contract to be Binding
If these conditions are met, neither party has the right to anull the marriage.

1. If the marriage of an underage or insane person is done by other than the father or the grandfather, then the father or grandfather has the right to annul it.
2. That the husband is socially compatible and qualified for the woman.
3. That the dowry is at least equivalent to those similar to her.
4. That there is no defect in either spouse.  Included in this category would be the case where the woman was said to be a virgin but is then discovered to be otherwise or where either spouse is not physically capable of marital relations.

There are other things that can make a marriage voidable (which means the non-lying spouse make invalidate the marriage): such as lying about your age and so on and so forth...

[eThErEaL]

the most important thing is the heart.  not the action.  someone can perform a terrible sin but repent and renew his or her heart.  so, even if a girl is not a virgin but covers it up, and repented, she should not tell her husband she committed the sin.  n.  the only business the husband has is to see how she behaves at the moment.  see if she is sincere and nice.

but lets say the husband asks her if she is a virgin...i don't think she should "lie".  if he doesn't ask, then she should not tell him.

Edited by eThErEaL, 30 November 2007 - 04:06 PM.

[ForeverMM]

eThErEaL, on Nov 30 2007, 04:02 PM, said:

the most important thing is the heart.  not the action.  someone can perform a terrible sin but repent and renew his or her heart.  so, even if a girl is not a virgin but covers it up, and repented, she should not tell her husband she committed the sin.  n.  the only business the husband has is to see how she behaves at the moment.  see if she is sincere and nice.

but lets say the husband asks her if she is a virgin...i don't think she should "lie".  if he doesn't ask, then she should not tell him.

I disagree wtih you on this...If she truly is repentent and she is regretful for what she has done and she has selected for herself a good strong muslim man then he should be able to forgive her as well and be willing to marry her irregardless of the fact that she is not a virgin.

She shouldn't live her life thinking that some day he'll find out and have that fear hanging over her.  It is best to approach it with honesty.

Plus I really don't think the man she wants to marry if he is incapable of forgiving her is someone whom she'll want in life anyways...we all do wrong and some point or another and as long as we repent others should forgive us as well.

[waiting]

Quote

Gladly point to why she has to:

QUOTE Conditions for the Marriage Contract to be Binding
If these conditions are met, neither party has the right to anull the marriage.

1. If the marriage of an underage or insane person is done by other than the father or the grandfather, then the father or grandfather has the right to annul it.
2. That the husband is socially compatible and qualified for the woman.
3. That the dowry is at least equivalent to those similar to her.
4. That there is no defect in either spouse.  Included in this category would be the case where the woman was said to be a virgin but is then discovered to be otherwise or where either spouse is not physically capable of marital relations.

There are other things that can make a marriage voidable (which means the non-lying spouse make invalidate the marriage): such as lying about your age and so on and so forth...

Please don't misguide people by pasting non-Shi'i rulings without explicitly stating it, and also give your sources when you copy paste.

Above is taken from a Sunni (Hanafi) site, http://www.java-man....Marriage05.html.

Furthermore, it has nothing to do with what you claimed, which was:
In order for a marriage to be valid between a man and a woman they both need to fully disclose any information that would result the other individual to have a change of heart.

What the above says - which I don't know if it's valid according to Shi'i jurisprudence - is that if you lie about your defects (virginity is defined as such), then the man has the option of taking out a divorce.

[Angel of Death]

if someone finds out that she told a lie then he should divorce her at that spot without any questions and answers.

because Quran says that only momin woman is for momin man and momin man is for a momin woman

and if she comitted a sin ( gunah e kabira ) and she cheated you as well then she should be punished , i mean she should be (at least divorced )

Edited by Karachi, 30 November 2007 - 05:20 PM.

[fan_hizbollah]

she might have lied..in d first place to save the marriage benifitting both of them..personaly i dnt fink its right that he should divorce her without asking any ques....she might have repented...n thats wats needed

[Puzzle pieces]

I'm not sure of the Islamic rulings, so I won't pass out my own fatwas.

Logically though, if a guy thinks his future wife is a virgin and there is nothing to make him think that she isn't like maybe shes divorced etc, yeah he will be shocked if he finds out on the wedding night. It'd be best to be honest and open with each other. Though, many Muslim men are narrowminded, so make sure he won't flip out, then dump her and go tell everyone that she isn't a virgin. Her name would be wrecked. If you think he'll flip out, DON'T bother telling him. It depends on the guy, and how much he'll hold a person's past against them etc.

[postmaster1923]

She should tell him before they marry, but if they marry and she hasn't told him yet, she should never tell him.

[ForeverMM]

waiting, on Nov 30 2007, 04:24 PM, said:

Please don't misguide people by pasting non-Shi'i rulings without explicitly stating it, and also give your sources when you copy paste.

Above is taken from a Sunni (Hanafi) site, http://www.java-man....Marriage05.html.

Furthermore, it has nothing to do with what you claimed, which was:
In order for a marriage to be valid between a man and a woman they both need to fully disclose any information that would result the other individual to have a change of heart.

What the above says - which I don't know if it's valid according to Shi'i jurisprudence - is that if you lie about your defects (virginity is defined as such), then the man has the option of taking out a divorce.

actually the above was taken from muslimconvert.com and the original posting I did is based off of a law in Iran, which I've been studying for a while now.  For example, if a husband lies about his age it is grounds for a women to get divorced, if a man lies about his education it is grounds for a women to get divorced, if a man lies about his income it is grounds for a women to divorce, and vice versa (although a man doesn't need grounds for a divorce).  Something as important as purity in islam when the Qu'ran specifically talks about it

Quote

The Qur'an, chapter 24 (An-Noor), verse 3: “ The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers."

Quote

The Qur'an, chapter 5 (Al-Ma'ida), verse 5: “ ... (Lawful to you in marriage) the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret..."

Quote

The Qur'an, chapter 60 (Al-Mumtahina), verse 10: “ O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and kt them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise."

The Islamic law is VERY clear on this aspect.  Purity and Chastity is the most important in Islam, a muslim man who is a fornicator may not marry a virgin muslim women as a fornicatress may not marry a virgin muslim man.

Therefore, if she is not a virgin and marries this man who is virgin and pure not only is she going against Islamic law but she is taking away his rights to follow the Qu'ran.  Now if he is aware of the fact that she is not a virgin but repentent then that is different, becasue he is choosing to marry her even with her indiscretion and as such for her repentence she can be compared to the women that are being spoken of in 60:10.  Although 60:10 is in reference to women who convert to Islam whose families have not converted.

This is an Islamic doctrine which is present in both Shia and Sunni doctrines not because it comes from a school of thought but because it comes directly from the Qu'ran and PLEASE don't tell me that the Qu'ran they read and we read are two different ones...

I'll aslo provide you with a personal example...my mother often jokes with my father that if he makes her mad she'll divorce him because he said he was 13 years older than her when in fact he is 15 years older than her.  I'm not spouting off things of without a basis.

[BintAlHoda]

here is the ruling of ayatullah seestani:

Quote

2453. * If the husband makes it a condition before Nikah, that the woman should be a virgin, and it transpires after Nikah that she is not virgin, he can repudiate the marriage. However, he can deduct and take the difference between the Mahr usually paid for a virgin woman and the one who is not a virgin.

so it does not invalidate the marriage, it just gives him the opportunity to leave it.  however, a man can also divorce his wife any time he wants to anyway, so it is not like this is giving him some unusual privilege.

ForeverMM, on Nov 30 2007, 08:45 PM, said:

The Islamic law is VERY clear on this aspect.  Purity and Chastity is the most important in Islam, a muslim man who is a fornicator may not marry a virgin muslim women as a fornicatress may not marry a virgin muslim man.

Therefore, if she is not a virgin and marries this man who is virgin and pure not only is she going against Islamic law but she is taking away his rights to follow the Qu'ran.

fornication is not the only thing that could have happened to the lady.  what about rape, molestation, or, the site's favorite topic, mutah?    she may even have been married before and just not mentioned it especially if there is a stigma attached.

plus, some people commit a sin once or twice and then repent.  that does not make them a serial fornicator who just does what they want and doesn't care about the boundaries of Allah.  Allah in the holy quran speaks about those who do not commit sins except by accident.

of course, for a woman, the consequences of this sort of accident are much more severe because of the way people think in society.

anyway i think it is healthiest in a relationship to be honest.  however, it seems to me that a lot of men  are very uncomfortable with the idea of a lady having been with someone else.  if he is going to make her life hell over it after marriage or be jealous or suspicious for the rest of their lives or hold it over her head, then if she could conceal it, i would understand why she would want to do that.  or if she feared being divorced because of it or being unable to marry, then i could understand why she would want to conceal it too.

Edited by BintAlHoda, 30 November 2007 - 11:48 PM.

[BabyBeaverIsAKit]

Quote

plus, some people commit a sin once or twice and then repent. that does not make them a serial fornicator who just does what they want and doesn't care about the boundaries of Allah. Allah in the holy quran speaks about those who do not commit sins except by accident.

Plus, aren't sins supposed to be between you and God? Not that this is an excuse for dishonesty in a relationship, but it's kind of hard to walk the line between confessing your sins to a human and telling what needs to be told.

[Maryaam]

BabyBeaverIsAKit, on Nov 30 2007, 10:25 PM, said:

Plus, aren't sins supposed to be between you and God? Not that this is an excuse for dishonesty in a relationship, but it's kind of hard to walk the line between confessing your sins to a human and telling what needs to be told.

For a healthy marriage it would be needed.  I think it would cause problems later especially if he (or she) found out through someone else. I think it is really best to be totally honest about everything. Then you can be totally relaxed around him or her, not needing to hide anything.

[Asha]

just my opinion, but i believe a marriage thats foundation is based upon a lie is doomed to fall/fail.  Keeping an important fact like this a secret is the same as lying.  The truth will eventually come to light and then you have destroyed one of the most crucial elements of a marriage......trust.  I would never intentionally keep any secrets from my prospective husband.

[Peace]

^ thats prob cus u dont have any you need to hide.