141 replies to this topic

[Zara28]

Whizbee, on Aug 4 2007, 02:50 PM, said:

I deleted my post. I went back and read you first post and decided that I didn't want to continue this further.

You said:
But when we show proof that it is indeed encouraged by the Ahlul Bayt , you say:
Keep changing your stance if you want to. I'm out.

Salam.

No, I haven't changed my stance. You have failed to understand what I have been trying to say, hence my having to repeat the same points.

I am saying that while there is narration with regards to cursing, there is also examples given by the Imams where they were examples of Islam by their conduct towards their enemies and that we should take those positive examples into account. I then went on to say how there is great benefit from the other ways of showing love to Musumeen(as) without having to curse.

Salams.

Edited by Zara28, 04 August 2007 - 03:03 PM.

[haideriam]

Zara28, on Aug 4 2007, 09:01 PM, said:

No, I haven't changed my stance. You have failed to understand what I have been trying to say, hence my having to repeat the same points.

I am saying that while there is narration with regards to cursing, there is also examples given by the Imams where they were examples of Islam by their conduct towards their enemies and that we should take those positive examples into account. I then went on to say how there is great benefit from the other ways of showing love to Musumeen(as) without having to curse.

Salams.

salam sis

the idea is not to gang up on you but to hopefully get the right thought process going

one is to show the mutual respect towards one's fellow human beings and if that is not cursing their idols to their faces, then that is correct - and i pray this is what you have been meaning all along.

but then when you said that you have also stopped reciting ziarat e ashura, the train of thought that you are expressing is not islamic what to say shia.

others' have shown to you that to do laan(tabarra) is furu e deen and have given you examples from the quran where laan is the recommended thing neigh it is compulsory, but sadly you are using your own conjecture when you should not.
what the prophet   and the aimah(as) give you take and what they forbid you abstain from.
no using the own conjecture.
to try and understand why they have done what they have done is different to trying to question the validity of what they have given to you(this includes the give and forbid).

do not try to be cleverer than the aimah(as) for in it is your destruction, infact do not even try to be cleverer than your marja for in it is your destruction too. the reason being you are talking without knowledge.

alas you misunderstand unity - unity is respect for each others point of view and understanding. now you might understand or not as to why we call our non shia brothers in islam - muslims. the only outcasts are the nasibis.

[Zara28]

haideriam, on Aug 4 2007, 05:32 PM, said:

salam sis

the idea is not to gang up on you but to hopefully get the right thought process going

one is to show the mutual respect towards one's fellow human beings and if that is not cursing their idols to their faces, then that is correct - and i pray this is what you have been meaning all along.

but then when you said that you have also stopped reciting ziarat e ashura, the train of thought that you are expressing is not islamic what to say shia.

others' have shown to you that to do laan(tabarra) is furu e deen and have given you examples from the quran where laan is the recommended thing neigh it is compulsory, but sadly you are using your own conjecture when you should not.
what the prophet   and the aimah(as) give you take and what they forbid you abstain from.
no using the own conjecture.
to try and understand why they have done what they have done is different to trying to question the validity of what they have given to you(this includes the give and forbid).

do not try to be cleverer than the aimah(as) for in it is your destruction, infact do not even try to be cleverer than your marja for in it is your destruction too. the reason being you are talking without knowledge.

alas you misunderstand unity - unity is respect for each others point of view and understanding. now you might understand or not as to why we call our non shia brothers in islam - muslims. the only outcasts are the nasibis.

I respect your perspective, but you can choose to spend the entire year with replies that you think will 'enlighten' me and I will still give you the same response. I can write this in caps if you like and perhaps you can memorise if you don't understand the basics of what I have been saying.

For the last time and please pay careful attention, because my patience is starting to wear a little thin with having to repeat the same points over again!

I am NOT repeat NOT questioning the validity of anything that Imams have narrated or perscribed. I have stated that on the issue of cursing, there are other ways of showing your love, loyalty,affection and aligence other than cursing 100 times a day. That we need to show sensitivities towards those who don't understand why we curse and think about the effects public display of cursing has on the ummah as a whole. And yes, that is important, whether you agree with that or not! I don't believe in sectarianism, but sadly there are some fantaics who do, on both sides, bot Shia and Sunni. I like to think that I have explained these points very simply and not in a way that is difficult to understand.

I have a choice to curse or not. It is not up to you or anyone else to tell me that I should curse when I have that choice. That is my perogative as well as my choice to express the views. I have not said anything against the Masumeen(as) and God knows how much I love them and make dua to them everyday, nor have I dismissed their hadeeth , or commandments. I have merely stated that we should also reflect on their kind behaviour towards their enemies. And these are well known incidents in history. If you don't know about that, then perhaps it is YOU who needs educating! Please take care of your own imaan and how you live as a Shia. I have never claimed to hold religious authority and have made that clear from the onset of these discussions. I have just raised issues that are worth reflecting on.


I can tell from your attitude and those of similar persuation that it isn't just some Sunnis thats are guilty of creating fitnah! Unity means we are Muslims. Muslims first. Not Shia, not Sunni, but Muslim. Those who constantly promote divisions and sectarianism(directly, or indirectly) are neither Shia, nor Sunni!

Edited by Zara28, 04 August 2007 - 06:26 PM.

[haideriam]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 12:12 AM, said:

For the last time and please pay careful attention, because my patience is starting to wear a little thin with having to repeat the same points over again!

could have copy pasted

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 12:12 AM, said:

I am NOT repeat NOT questioning the validity of anything that Imams have narrated or perscribed.
I have a choice to curse or not. It is not up to you or anyone else to tell me that I should curse when I have that choice. That is my perogative as well as my choice to express the views.

when Allah(swt) and his rasul (and in extension the aimmah(as)) have spoken, you have no choice in the matter. I REPEAT NOT DOING WHAT THEY SAY IS QUESTIONING THE VALIDITY OF IT.
i swear you do not know what laan or a curse is and have taken a very typical subcontinental malangi approach to it, the reason me asking you earlier if you were from the subcontinent.

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 12:12 AM, said:

I can tell from your attitude and those of similar persuation that it isn't just some Sunnis thats are guilty of creating fitnah! Unity means we are Muslims. Muslims first. Not Shia, not Sunni, but Muslim. Those who constantly promote divisions and sectarianism(directly, or indirectly) are neither Shia, nor Sunni!

how wrong you are in your guesses and conjecture.
'WE' don't go in the street shouting in front of sunnis and wahabis that the 1st, 2nd and 3rd are ........................
this is gunah(sin) and not permitted.
we do not point out their mistakes uninvited
but pointing out their mistakes when invited or when we have an attentive audience, without causing fights and division and fitnah
for the aim is not to ridicule but to educate to be able to decipher the right from the wrong
to enable them to adhere or follow or be guided to the straight path
this help that you provide from whatever he has blessed you with is compulsory upon you.
if you say all were santas and hunky dory for the sake of unity - you have alas misunderstood unity like so many other things you misunderstand. this is primarily being or trying to be PC.
heck you will be surprised to know my family encompasses all shades
from the ghalis to the wahabis to the agnostics.
surprise surprise there is no fitnah amongst us.
because we are not doing it for ourselves or our egos.

Edited by haideriam, 05 August 2007 - 12:00 AM.

[Dhulfiqar]

Let's all make Du'a, inshaAllah.

May the lovers of the Ahlul Bayt be rewarded and may those that have caused hardship on our Ahlul Bayt and their righteous followers get their well deserved punishment from Allah (swt). --Ameen.

[Whizbee]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 01:31 AM, said:

I am saying that while there is narration with regards to cursing, there is also examples given by the Imams where they were examples of Islam by their conduct towards their enemies and that we should take those positive examples into account. I then went on to say how there is great benefit from the other ways of showing love to Musumeen(as) without having to curse.

That's completely different from cursing. You are mixing two things up.

They were not cruel to their enemies so we should follow their example and not be cruel to our enemies.

Now for cursing, we hate Umar not because he is our "enemy" but because he is an enemy of the Ahlul Bayt . We as Shi'as lead (or should) lead our lives with one simple principle in mind. Love for Allah (swt) and hate for Allah (swt). And love for the Ahlul Bayt is love for Allah (swt).

We are not Christians to "love all". Imam Sadiq has said: Is faith anything but love and hate?

Love for the Ahlul Bayt and hate for their enemies. And cursing is the most recommended way for showing our hate for their enemies and disassociating with them.

As for not cursing 100 times but once, I don’t see how that makes a difference. So you are going to tell a Sunni, "Oh I am not a "fanatic" like the rest because they curse all day and I do it just once". What?

Syeda Zahra (sa) cursed Umar and Abu Bakr after every prayer. And I will too.

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 12:33 AM, said:

I am aware there are narrations where cursing has been prescribed. Did I not say that I do recite Tawwusul and where it clearly states "curse the enemies of Allah(who have oppresed them and will oppress them")?

What I have been trying to drive home for like the umpteenth time is that there are other ways of getting closer to Masumeen(as) and showing loyalty without cursing excessively. And I'm sorry, but these do have a negative impact on the rest of the Ummah.

Okay, so please tell me, do you know more than the Aimmah (A)? Didn't the Aimmah (A) know that it would be a negative factor against the unity of the Ummah? Didn't they know that there are other ways by which the followers can get closer to them? If yes, then why did they prescribe cursing in the first place?  

Just answer with a simple YES/NO stating a brief reason for your answer.

It also struck me while re-reading your previous post where you said only Shaytan is to cursed, that will you ignore the part in the Holy Qur'an where Abu Lahab has been cursed?

You sound confused to me.

. . it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it. (Surah an-Nisa (4), Verse 19)

[layman]

Whizbee, on Aug 5 2007, 02:12 AM, said:

That's completely different from cursing. You are mixing two things up.

They were not cruel to their enemies so we should follow their example and not be cruel to our enemies.

Now for cursing, we hate Umar not because he is our "enemy" but because he is an enemy of the Ahlul Bayt . We as Shi'as lead (or should) lead our lives with one simple principle in mind. Love for Allah (swt) and hate for Allah (swt). And love for the Ahlul Bayt is love for Allah (swt).

We are not Christians to "love all". Imam Sadiq has said: Is faith anything but love and hate?

Love for the Ahlul Bayt and hate for their enemies. And cursing is the most recommended way for showing our hate for their enemies and disassociating with them.

As for not cursing 100 times but once, I don’t see how that makes a difference. So you are going to tell a Sunni, "Oh I am not a "fanatic" like the rest because they curse all day and I do it just once". What?

Syeda Zahra (sa) cursed Umar and Abu Bakr after every prayer. And I will too.

Cursing is allowed.   Do it at the right moment, right occasion...NOT to backfire where people (among the publics )who do not understand about Ahlulbayt might say "the teachings of Ahlulbayt are misguided". People might assume the shias are more emotional than rational.

"Syeda Zahra (sa) cursed after every prayer".... again NOT in public.

The things about cursing, if we are not careful of expressing it, some simple minded people might over do it. Especially when we are discussing with those who are not believing in the same faith as us.

Personally, I understand what Zara28 was trying to say. The Sis was not sayings cursing not allowed. She agreed that cursing is allowed. But under the circumstances that she is in, precautions is more important.

I absolutely agreed with Zara28 with regard to "syaitans"
Syaitans are more deserved to be cursed publically, because syaitans are clear enemies of Ahlulbayt. It were SHAITANs that caused many people in the past to be misguided and killed Imams.  That is for sure.

We can disregards the beliefs of others and start cursing the enemies of Ahlulbayt openly...is this approach acceptable?

For the current situation, cursing the enemies of Ahlulbayt in the presence of Allah and Ahlulbayt ...for example after solat and not in the public would show our true love to Ahlulbayt . IF it involve publics, let make sure the publics are among those who have the same beliefs that we have.

There are people who will always start to curse when "certain names" are mentioned.  If we really want to express our hatred toward enemies to Ahlulbayt , let do it with reasons and facts. Show that certain people in the past has done terrible things to Ahlulbayt which were against the teachings of Rasulullah. Reserve the cursing part, show the facts only.  Let the opponents start thinking...

Sometimes in our inner selves, we hate the enemies of Ahlulbayt (the killers of Imams), then to express our hatred and non acceptance of enemies of Ahlulbayt , we read ziarat ashura.

Reading the ziarat ashura EVERYDAY in seclusion is VERY good. Like "Syeda Zahra (sa) did her cursing after every prayer"....

But let make sure our daily activities, we put more words to invite people to know and love Ahlulbayt then throwing CURSEs. Precaution is hikmah.

Layman

[Whizbee]

layman, on Aug 5 2007, 03:06 PM, said:

Personally, I understand what Zara28 was trying to say. The Sis was not sayings cursing not allowed. She agreed that cursing is allowed. But under the circumstances that she is in, precautions is more important.

Salam
I am not against the whole idea of not cursing their leaders in public. We should avoid anything that leads to fitna.

But if you have carefully read the sister's posts, although she keeps claiming that she has nothing against cursing, she herself says:

Quote

I don't do Ziaret Ashura anymore, becasue of the points I have raised. And it is NOT because I respect the enemies of Imam Hussein(as) astaghfurullah - and shame on the person who so much as suggests such a thing- but because I do not feel right to curse anyone except Shatan. God judges and punishes those who have done evil and injustice towards Ahlulbait(as). Whether I curse or not, will not prevent God's justice from being done. I regularly recite Tawwasul and Waritha and I am fully aware that there is a curse at the end of Tawwasul. You are acknowledging that God's enemies did great evil and I have no problem in calling up damnation on the enemies of Ahlulbait(as). I have a problem with cursing so excessively towards a given person. You think God doesn't know who you are referring to when you say "curse the enemies of Allah and Imams"?!(tawwusul) Rather, I would prefer to using my time sending salams onto them, instead of dwelling on such a tragic event.

So she is against cursing and doesn't want to "dwell on tragic events". The Ahlul Bayt hold a completely different view on the subject and the last time I checked, we have to have obey them completely and not pick and choose and change Islam as we think it should be.

[layman]

Whizbee, on Aug 5 2007, 06:01 AM, said:

Salam
I am not against the whole idea of not cursing their leaders in public. We should avoid anything that leads to fitna.

But if you have carefully read the sister's posts, although she keeps claiming that she has nothing against cursing, she herself says:
So she is against cursing and doesn't want to "dwell on tragic events". The Ahlul Bayt hold a completely different view on the subject and the last time I checked, we have to have obey them completely and not pick and choose and change Islam as we think it should be.

We should give her more time to clarify her stand. Maybe she is explaning her experiences on why she wanted to avoid cursing the enemies of Ahlulbayt .  Possibly she has many interfaces with "non-shias". So she leave the fate of those who went against Ahlulbayt in past to Allah swt to pass the judgement. NO bad of an approach.

Yes, I have read her statement about ziarah ashura. It is not a judgement, it is just a personal preference.  NO problem with that. It is just that she does not want the ziarah ashura to be spoken in public.  I am sure deep in her heart, she still curse the enemies of Ahlulbayt.  After all, she read tawassul.

What she preferred is to "spend more time in remembring Ahlulbayt...giving salam to Ahlulbayt" than remembring "enemies of Ahlulbayt and cursing them". Maybe she feel that she has not done enough to remember Ahlulbayt . And the remembrance brings her closer to Ahlulbayt .

Personally, I would prefer to spend NIGHT and DAY to remember Ahlulbayt ...but that does not mean I forget to curse killers of Hussain . Percentage wise, is MUCH MUCH more toward remembrance of Ahlulbayt(as)

She did not pick and chose the "belief" in Shia Islam, but she is more dwelling on the "approach".


Layman

Edited by layman, 05 August 2007 - 06:38 AM.

[SpIzo]

layman, on Aug 5 2007, 05:00 PM, said:

We should give her more time to clarify her stand.

Don't you think 23 posts out of 60 are enough?

[Zara28]

layman, on Aug 5 2007, 06:30 AM, said:

We should give her more time to clarify her stand. Maybe she is explaning her experiences on why she wanted to avoid cursing the enemies of Ahlulbayt .  Possibly she has many interfaces with "non-shias". So she leave the fate of those who went against Ahlulbayt in past to Allah swt to pass the judgement. NO bad of an approach.

Yes, I have read her statement about ziarah ashura. It is not a judgement, it is just a personal preference.  NO problem with that. It is just that she does not want the ziarah ashura to be spoken in public.  I am sure deep in her heart, she still curse the enemies of Ahlulbayt.  After all, she read tawassul.

What she preferred is to "spend more time in remembring Ahlulbayt...giving salam to Ahlulbayt" than remembring "enemies of Ahlulbayt and cursing them". Maybe she feel that she has not done enough to remember Ahlulbayt . And the remembrance brings her closer to Ahlulbayt .

Personally, I would prefer to spend NIGHT and DAY to remember Ahlulbayt ...but that does not mean I forget to curse killers of Hussain . Percentage wise, is MUCH MUCH more toward remembrance of Ahlulbayt(as)

She did not pick and chose the "belief" in Shia Islam, but she is more dwelling on the "approach".
Layman

Salams Bro/Sis,


Thank you for hitting the points I was (trying) to raise on the head!!!


Thank God someone understands my perspective. Unfortunately, with some Shia their emotions tend to get the better of them and cannot grasp the ideas/arguments put forward.


It is not up to anyone to dictate to other Shia how to supplicate to Allah or to the Imams(as) and you are right I do take comfort in sending blessings and salams onto them. As far as I am concerned I curse the enemies of Islam and Ahlulbait everyday(Tawwasul) and don't feel the need to curse 100 times to 'point out' to God WHO those enemies are. God damns and punishes those who have committed unspeakable acts and quite frankly, I hate to even mention their names. It turns my stomach over!  


Shias have been known to curse in public. I know because a Sunni friend of mine told me how a Shia group even celebrated Omar's death.  I Think more is needed to combat this type of sectarnism. It's all very well lecturing on how Syed Zahra(as) cursed her enemies, that was her full right. She and her family were being oppressed, but I am wondering if even the Ahlubait(as) themselves cursed as much as a lot of Shia do today... It has almost become like an obsession. Why are we so fixated with history and paying little attention to what is going on in the present? What is happening to Muslims as a global community..why do we lose sight of how Shatan is taking advantage of the divisions between the two schools of thought? Well with some of the fantaical talk I have heard from both sides.. he must be rubbing his hands with glee! It's time we grew up and started being an example instead of concentrating on how many times we should curse, which one of their graves we want to urinate on, or  how much blood during Ashura you need to shed to 'prove' you love Aba Abdullah(as) whilst paying little attention to how extreme this behaviour is to non-Muslims, let alone Sunnis!

We should read moreabout what good, noble and pious people they were. How much they were loved and appreciated by Allah(swt) and how they showed kindness towards their oppressors. I have already given examples of that in my earlier posts. Whatever reason that was, it was to be seen as an example. If we allow the love of Alulbait to enter our hearts instead of filling it with contempt for their enemy all the time, then maybe we would see justhow soft their hearts were. Excessive cursing makes you hate. We know that much. But without you realising you are slowly festering hatred towards your Sunni brothers and sisters, because you secretly despise them and you are not even aware of it!


I suspect that many oppose my stance because they know it to be truthful and realistic, but just don't want to be honest with themselves.


I realised that yesterday I showed impatience towards some of my brethren on here as I let my frustrations get the better of me. I think that this is not how our beloved Masumeen(as) would have reacted. They would have shown greater strength and I apologise if I have caused offence to anyone.

Edited by Zara28, 05 August 2007 - 10:09 AM.

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 08:28 PM, said:

If we allow the love of Alulbait to enter our hearts instead of filling it with contempt for their enemy all the time, then maybe we would see how soft their hearts were too. Excessive cursing makes you hate.

Brother layman, I would like your explanation on this argument of the sister.

If we shouldn't be dictating to others how one should supplicate to Allah (SWT), then neither sister Zara28, do you have any right to state the number of times we want to curse. Whether we curse once or 100 times, it is our own prerogative, just as leaving Ziyarat-e-Ashura was your prerogative.

It's funny you think nobody should tell you what to do, yet you want to tell others what they should do.

Edited by SpIzo, 05 August 2007 - 10:09 AM.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 10:08 AM, said:

Brother layman, I would like your explanation on this argument of the sister.

If we shouldn't be dictating to others how one should supplicate to Allah (SWT), then neither sister Zara28, do you have any right to state the number of times we want to curse. Whether we curse once or 100 times, it is our own prerogative, just as leaving Ziyarat-e-Ashura was your prerogative.

It's funny you think nobody should tell you what to do, yet you want to tell others what they should do.

I don't believe I was dictating to anyone. I didn't say Musumeen said that you shouldn't curse, rather I was making the gesture that excessive cursing doesn't help matters, nor is it the only way you can get closer to them. I made that response to others who seem to think I need to be told how I should supplicate to Ahlulbait(as)

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 08:46 PM, said:

I don't believe I was dictating to anyone. I didn't say Musumeen said that you shouldn't curse, rather I was making the gesture that excessive cursing doesn't help matters, nor is it the only way you can get closer to them. I made that response to others who seem to think I need to be told how I should supplicate to Ahlulbait(as)

Yep, that is why you were repeatedly saying that we shouldn't curse 100 times a day even though the Aimmah (A) have recommended it. I still don't understand how you know excessive cursing doesn't help, if done in the way as Ahlul Bayt (A) have taught us.

Anyway, to your opinion, to us, our beliefs.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 10:21 AM, said:

Yep, that is why you were repeatedly saying that we shouldn't curse 100 times a day even though the Aimmah (A) have recommended it. I still don't understand how you know excessive cursing doesn't help, if done in the way as Ahlul Bayt (A) have taught us.

Anyway, to your opinion, to us, our beliefs.

I think that all Jafaris share the same beliefs and it is a little offensive to suggest, albeit subtlely, that I am somehow not a follower of Ahlulbait because I have been making the suggestion that excessive cursing, in certain circumstances, is not good for the ummah. If you want to start bringing quotations from Imams(as) please do so, but even those narrations should be scrutiniseds in its complete entirity and context. Do you think that the masumeen will instruct Shias to openly curse in front of Sunnis, or to focus so much attention on expressing hatred for what happened in history at the expence of what is happening today? Bear in mind that Imam Ali(as) himself gave up his right as the divinely appointed successor for the sake of keeping the peace within the community.

I can tell by your tone that you are getting quite emotinal about this issue and I don't know why. Is it because you believe that you love the Masumeen(as) more than I do because I am trying to see the bigger picture and trying to think everyday of how they would behave or react in certain situations, when a lot of us only remember their wisdom, or ordeals on certain anniversaries, or when we have a sectarian axe to grind..?

Edited by Zara28, 05 August 2007 - 10:36 AM.

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 09:05 PM, said:

I think that all Jafaris share the same beliefs and it is a little offensive to suggest, albeit subtlely, that I am somehow not a follower of Ahlulbait because I have been making the suggestion that excessive cursing, in certain circumstances, is not good for the ummah.

I think I asked you some questions above. You first need to answer them.

Quote

If you want to start bringing quotations from Imams(as) please do so, but even those narrations should be scrutiniseds in its complete entirity and context. Do you think that the masumeen will instruct Shias to openly curse in front of Sunnis, or to focus so much attention on expressing hatred for what happened in history at the expence of what is happening today? Bear in mind that Imam Ali(as) himself gave up his right as the divinely appointed successor for the sake of keeping the peace within the community.

Sister, I'm talking about cursing as the Ahlul Bayt (A) have taught us. Which part of my post are you finding a little difficult to understand? Please do say, so that I can clarify.

No where have I said that we should curse in front of Sunnis. And when I said adab, cursing in front of Sunnis goes against this very adab. So I don't know why you're repeating this phrase again and again.

Expressing hatred for the enemies of Ahlul Bayt (A) is never excessive.

Quote

I can tell by your tone that you are getting quite emotinal about this issue and I don't know why. Is it because you believe that you love the Masumeen(as) more than I do because I am trying to see the bigger picture and trying to think everyday of how they would behave or react in certain situations, when a lot of us only remember their wisdom, or ordeals on certain anniversaries, or when we have a sectarian axe to grind..?

And I can tell by your tone sister, that you simply don't want to understand, rather make excuses.

It's sad that you left Ziyarat-e-Ashura just because you had to sit and curse the enemies of 100 times a day. That's really sad. Today you've left this belief, tomorrow you may leave another belief all because of 'unity'.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 11:09 AM, said:

I think I asked you some questions above. You first need to answer them.
Sister, I'm talking about cursing as the Ahlul Bayt (A) have taught us. Which part of my post are you finding a little difficult to understand? Please do say, so that I can clarify.

No where have I said that we should curse in front of Sunnis. And when I said adab, cursing in front of Sunnis goes against this very adab. So I don't know why you're repeating this phrase again and again.

Expressing hatred for the enemies of Ahlul Bayt (A) is never excessive.
And I can tell by your tone sister, that you simply don't want to understand, rather make excuses.

It's sad that you left Ziyarat-e-Ashura just because you had to sit and curse the enemies of 100 times a day. That's really sad. Today you've left this belief, tomorrow you may leave another belief all because of 'unity'.

And I believe that I answered you. I think I made my postion quite clear.

I made the response that cursing is bad in front of Sunnis because Shias sometimes let themselves get  carried away in front of others. It doesn't matter if YOU mentioned it or not. It is a valid point that needs to addressed and reiterated if need be. I was discussing unity and the issue of cursing was very much a relevant within that discussion. We lose sight of the need to focus on our other responisibilities towards others because we have allowed ourselves to be fixated with hatred. It subconsciously makes us have contempt for our fellow Sunni brother/sister.

I know I repeat these points, but that is because the message doesn't seem to be getting through.


I think your last statement was somewhat melodramatic to say the least. I have not given up cursing the enemies of Allah and Ahlalbait(as) I just don't 'pin-point' to God WHO those enemies are. He doesn't need to be reminded who the guilty ones were!

I prefer to spend my time filling my heart with love of them and receive a huge amount of comfort from this. I feel it gives me inspiration to understand and think more about the Masumeen(a) in my daily life.  When I am filled with hate, I feel myself distancing myself from my Sunni friends -who are Muslims at the end of the day and may even be better in the eyes of God in how they treat their fellow Muslim then some Shia- and this is exactly what Shatan wants. Fanticism is from the devil himself!

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 10:00 PM, said:

And I believe that I answered you. I think I made my postion quite clear.

Actually no, you didn't. Rather you ignored it. This is the post I'm talking about:

Quote

Okay, so please tell me, do you know more than the Aimmah (A)? Didn't the Aimmah (A) know that it would be a negative factor against the unity of the Ummah? Didn't they know that there are other ways by which the followers can get closer to them? If yes, then why did they prescribe cursing in the first place?

Just answer with a simple YES/NO stating a brief reason for your answer.

It also struck me while re-reading your previous post where you said only Shaytan is to cursed, that will you ignore the part in the Holy Qur'an where Abu Lahab has been cursed?

You sound confused to me.

. . it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it. (Surah an-Nisa (4), Verse 19)

[layman]

to All,

I am trying to discuss or express my opinions objectively...

1. I believe that if we want to curse the enemies of ahlulbayt, do it in seclusion...when we feel that we are in the presence of Allah swt and Aimmah(as). Allah swt and Aimmah will understand our true hatred toward the enemies of Ahlulbayt. We can curse to the enemies of Ahlulbayt as much as we want.

2. When we are infront of other humans (sunnis in particular), we should exercise precautions.  We should focus on facts and good aklaq to win their logical mind. Therefore, cursing might not be the best approach. Others (sunnis) might not understand the "need for cursing the killers of members of Ahlulbayt".  

3. I believe that exercising tolerant will help to bring us closer to each others and will make it easier for the Light of Ahlulbayt to flow to those who have not yet taste it. Let remember, when hatred start to crip in, it is difficult to go out.

4. As for me, the ultimate hatred is still directed to Syaitans.  Syaitans reside deeply in the hearts of the killers of Ahlulbayt .

If giving the choice to curse  between ibnul Muljam and Syaitans on daily basis...I will curse the syaitans on daily basis. Syaitan is closer to humans than ibnul Muljam.

We must learn all the tricks that syaitans have.... on of the best trick of syaitans is "lay down the hatred to fellow muslims" so that we cannot communicate to each others.


Layman

[SpIzo]

layman, on Aug 5 2007, 10:16 PM, said:

to All,

I am trying to discuss or express my opinions objectively...

1. I believe that if we want to curse the enemies of ahlulbayt, do it in seclusion...when we feel that we are in the presence of Allah swt and Aimmah(as). Allah swt and Aimmah will understand our true hatred toward the enemies of Ahlulbayt. We can curse to the enemies of Ahlulbayt as much as we want.

2. When we are infront of other humans (sunnis in particular), we should exercise precautions.  We should focus on facts and good aklaq to win their logical mind. Therefore, cursing might not be the best approach. Others (sunnis) might not understand the "need for cursing the killers of members of Ahlulbayt".  

3. I believe that exercising tolerant will help to bring us closer to each others and will make it easier for the Light of Ahlulbayt to flow to those who have not yet taste it. Let remember, when hatred start to crip in, it is difficult to go out.

I agree with all your above points.

I don't agree with people who deny the concept of tabarra altogether just to unite with other Muslims.

[layman]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 11:51 AM, said:

I agree with all your above points.

I don't agree with people who deny the concept of tabarra altogether just to unite with other Muslims.

Salam,

I agree with you statement too... we cannot deny the concept of tabarra.

Layman

[Whizbee]

layman, on Aug 5 2007, 10:16 PM, said:

1. I believe that if we want to curse the enemies of ahlulbayt, do it in seclusion...when we feel that we are in the presence of Allah swt and Aimmah(as). Allah swt and Aimmah will understand our true hatred toward the enemies of Ahlulbayt. We can curse to the enemies of Ahlulbayt as much as we want.

Zara28 doesn't agree with you.

Oh and I do.

Salam.

Edited by Whizbee, 05 August 2007 - 11:59 AM.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 11:40 AM, said:

Actually no, you didn't. Rather you ignored it. This is the post I'm talking about:

Forgive me for saying this and I don't intent for this to belittle you in anyway, but you obviously didn't read my posts in depth, otherwise you would have seen the answer.

I think what are you are trying to do is 'prove' to others that I am some kind of 'sell-out' or hypercrite by trying to get me to rubbish the Musumeen(sa) ataghfurullah! What you appear to be looking for is a statement for where I say that the Ahlulbait were wrong in their judgement and that I know better than them! I will not let Shatan control this discussion by rising to your bait.

I have said this several times now I think and I will not repeat it again after this: I have never said that cursing has not been prescribed, nor that I know better than Ahlulbait(s) what I was trying to make a point of driving home was that one needs to take all things into context of the situation and use a bit of common sense when calling on damnation and the effect it has on the rest of the Ummah. The issue of disunity has become much more intense since the days of our Masumeen.This means that while you acknowledge the evil of what the hypocrites did, you also take other factors into consideration too, for which I have painstakingly tried to clarifiy.


And again,  there is cursing in Tawwasul, just not to the same extent as Ziaret Ashura.  You are cursing ALL enemies of Ahlulbait in Tawwasul, including AbuLahab.  More importantly, there is a CHOICE whether to curse or not, so as far as I can see I am still very much a Muslim and a Shia even though I don't curse 100 times a day! I learn about Ahlalbait(a) and try to show my love to them and take examples of their good characters;try to defend their honour and the principles of Shiaism when attacked or if I receive queries from Non-Shia.


Isn't this the true, ultimate characteristic of a follower of Ahlulbait..?